A couple weeks ago I wrote here what was going on in my life. While many posted back giving me encouragement and nice thoughts, there was one woman who wrote from a different point of view - she was direct, she was to the point and her words really woke me up. So now I want to return that favor!<P>CJ,<P>I know it is hard, and it is probably only going to get harder. There are so many sayings that address it - "its darkest before the dawn", "you never know when the tide will change", etc... But the bottom line is that your marriage IS worth saving. Period. And anything worth saving is going to take work. Work is hard. Work is often not fun. But through hard work, comes well deserved victories.<P>Right now you are hearing a lot of negative stuff about the past from your husband. And some about your current situation. It stinks - It hurts - It is often hard to hear. But it is not permanent. Today, right now, what you are experiencing is not what your marriage is going to be like - it is a temporary situation. Try to focus on the future - the possible future. Imagine what it will be like once both of your pains and hurts are gone. Once you both are able to leave the past behind and focus on the love you have for each other. The past does not mean the future. It is gone - all that remain are memories and feelings. Both of which you have full control over.<P>Look at it this way: My wife (sorry ex-wife) has re-written our past to suit her needs, just like so many of the spouses that are in "the fog". How do they do this? They do it by attaching different feelings to things that have happened in the past (no matter what really happened). What I may remember as a great day, my wife may remember something small that happened that day and she will then label it as a horrible day. You have the same power - we all do. You can begin to re-write the troubles you and your husband have had over the years - focus on the good points and forget the negatives. If so many spouse use it for negative reasons, why can't we use it for positive ones. It is all about focus - focus on the negative and that is what you feel. Focus on the positive and that is what you will feel.<P>Bottom line CJ, your husband IS WITH YOU. No matter what he says or thinks about the OW, he has chosen you. That means everything!!!!! But know that he has to work through much of his own trouble so he can come to grips with his past actions. He may feel guilty as *ell, but feeling it and admitting it are two different animals. Especially for men. A lot of times we feel terrible about something, but when confronted with it, instead of admitting we feel bad, we find the need to defend ourselves, EVEN THOUGH WE KNOW WE WERE WRONG. I don't know why, we just do <P>Now lets take a look at it from a faith perspective. God sees the seed of a good marriage in you both (possibly a great marriage). But He also sees how it has become so overgrown with "weeds" and garbage and has many weak vines. Just as a gardener knows that to save a plant, sometimes it is necessary to prune it down to its foundation, God knows that to save a marriage He must "prune" both spouses down to their "foundation". Plants can't feel, as far as we know, but I bet that if they could, when a gardener cuts off all their branches and shakes their stalk down to its roots, it would sting something awful. That I think is where you are right now. God needs to work hard on the both of you to fix this marriage. It won't be easy - on either of you. You'll both have your share of trials and tribulations. But I PROMISE you that if you BOTH PUT FORTH the effort, in His name - Your marriage will bloom beyond anything you can imagine.<P>My old high school coach (who just passed away a couple weeks ago) used to tell us about a tribe of natives called the Zulu. They were a fierce African tribe who used to run for miles (with no shoes) and fight battles that today would make the strongest person cringe. But he told us that the reason they were so strong and successful, came down to one basic premise - they would never take a step back - they would keep charging - keeping moving ahead - keep enduring. No matter how hard or difficult things got. They focused on the goal, not the battle.<P>So CJ, that is my challenge to you - Focus on the goal, not the battle. And that is exactly what you are now in - a battle for the survival of your marriage. Work hard, sweat for it. Put all your effort into bettering yourself and your marriage. Focus on your own efforts, not on your husband's. He will come around.<P>And guess what? If he doesn't come around, you will go on knowing you did EVERYTHING for your marriage. You gave it your all. I challenge you to trust him again 100% until he gives you a specific reason for you not to.<P>You have a chance CJ - I never got that chance. Don't waste it.<P>Also remember that as you believe in the existence of God and His goodness, so you must believe in its opposite - the devil and his darkness. He sees a great chance to take you away from the Father and He will do everything in his power to do just that. Keep in mind that there are forces working on you and your husband other than those coming from the two of you. But those forces will be after you more than for your husband because of the strong faith you possess. Remember that. Pray.<P>God bless you and may He grant both to you and your husband the wisdom, strength and love you need to help your marriage "bloom" once again.<P>Mike<P>------------------<BR>God always waits for the right time to do the right thing in the right way.

CJ,<P>I just popped back in to say hi real quick. <P>I was thinking about you last night after reading your post. I was thinking a lot about my exH too. I was realizing that much of the good we had the second time around were my imagination or own creations at times. I never really learned what to do right next time. We just chalked it up to having babies too young (which is a big part of it).<P>You will never ever be the same. Your ex will never be the same. The experiences you faced together and alone/with others while apart at anytime, also changed you both. So the relationship will also never be the same. It will feel even different and unrecognizable at times. It will feel like "why am I even trying this?". <P>Please be thankful for your second chance that many here wish they had. Take it and use it the best way you know how, with the principles here and your faith. This is your second chance that some of us blew once already or never got. You can take this time to do everything you wished you had done differently. Either its going to work, and you will have ONE DAY a much better relationship and be stronger for it. If it doesn't work, you will always know you gave it this last shot and can also move forward and heal with a clear conscience down the road.<P>But I still think before 6 months to a year, its way too soon to judge the recovery, as its just as painful as discovery, if not more. When I say recovery, I'm saying 6 months from after all contact with OW is lost, not just while he's in withdrawal. <P>You can do it. You can do whatever you want, and if you decide you don't want this, you can do that too! But be very patient, it is going to be a hard road. But some people really do make it together! <BR>Hugs, Dana<BR>

Okay, okay...I hear you!<P>Your royal highness, I think I have been struggling against doing what I know I need to do, so now that you have so skillfully advised me, I shall seek counseling. Who are we kidding? We BOTH can see that it's needed--but like a 4 ft. 10 in. baby, I didn't wanna!<P>Steve, do you know anyone who wants 4 Broncos season tickets (haha)? Thanks, coach. Anyway, I like your suggestion about "Boundaries in Marriage" and I shall see if the Tattered Cover (the local bookstore with every book ever published) has a copy that I can get tonight. I definately DO have a problem with setting and enforcing boundaries, so once again, you've hit the nail on the head.<P>Mike, I'm going to print your and tatoo it to my face. There is a lot of stuff in your reply that I would like to dwell on, contemplate and consider--let it sink in (which in Hebrew is Selah)--but I have to tell you two things right now. First, thanks for the spiritual kick in the butt. And second, I'm not sure there is anyone else here on this forum from whom I could have HEARD that message, so I thought you might be happy to hear that this time God was able to use you as my angel.<P>Last but not least, DanaB, I want to know that I am hearing what you say. We've only been trying at this since the beginning of February, so I agree that it's really to early to make any mature decision or clear judgement. But just so you know, I do worry about how much of the good times are just my imagination--it's the second-guessing thing. I frequently make lists of what is "really" happening to see if they match the way I feel--to check and see if my perceptions are totally off base or what. BUT (and this is a gigantic but), I am fully aware that while this part seems hard and painful and sad, at least I have been given the chance. That's one thing that actually kind of brings me a little regret, because I think of all you guys--my friends--and think, "I wonder why I got a second chance and they didn't? I wonder if they'd see this so much differently than I do now, or if they'd feel the same? I wonder if my priorities are getting tangled up or if I'm just willing to deal with reality rather than be in denial?" I think about all the folks who have said, "Boy, if I had known it was this serious..." or "If I had known I would have changed..." and I think I've been given such a gift that so many were denied. <P>Well, I am vaklempt (Jewish for choked up). Thanks everybody!<P><BR>CJ<BR><P>------------------<BR>Judge your success by what you had to give up in order to get it.

{{{CJ<P>There's isn't much useful that I can say that hasn't already been said here. Hang in there, and please <I>do</I> get counseling. Your husband <I>did</I> agree to it after all, and I think you'd better push for it. Both of you are just too close to the confusion to be able to see things objectively.<P>I think it's great that when your husband makes accusations you are able to stop and ask yourself whether they are justified. That's a lot better response than automatic defensiveness. But if the accusations are <I>not</I> justified, you need to be able to look beyond them, believe in yourself, and try to figure out what's <I>behind</I> the accusations, whether it's projection, misunderstanding, miscommunication, or simple frustration. A good counselor should help with that.<P>CJ, your husband is still living in a fantasy world, one in which there are no consequences. That's not the way the real world works, and your "failure" to measure up to a fantasy is nothing to be ashamed of. Wendy Darling's experience notwithstanding, the Hero's Journey does not go through Neverland, and the hero often requires a guide to find his or her way back home.<P>{{{{{{{{CJ<BR>

Belated Happy Birthday CJ,<P>I'm sorry I missed this thread, I had my mind on another thread and was thinking about you, wondering when you were going to pop in on it. <P>The first thing I want to say is that you're not nuts, you aren't judgemental and you certainly aren't negative. Good Lord, just look at the positive, optimistic attitude it took just to give your marriage another chance! Negative and judgemental people don't do that.<P>CJ, you've brought a lot of smiles to us, a lot of caring and a lot of sharing. I don't think you started that because your spouse left, I'll bet you have been reaching out to people with kindness all your life. <P>Well, the thread has overwhelmed you with advice, so please just add me to the list of MBrs who really think you are wise,warm,wonderful, reasonable, honorable, caring, intelligent, and above all, REAL. I just checked you out in my computer, and it says here that you are a real stand up gal! <P>{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{CJ}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}<P>Prayers and stuff,<P>Bumper

CJ,<P>I totally remember those days. The second guessing and wondering what is reality and my perception. I'm not an expert trust me! But I've been where you are. Unfortunately , I was young. I had a hard life growing up and had kids too young and I don't look at myself as the average 21 yr old back then, or the average 28 yr old now. I have always tried hard to learn, be a better person or understand everything around me. I did try very hard during our recovery that year.<P>We went to counseling and we fell in love all over again. I saw him trying, I saw him growing up and he treated me good. But deep down, when I look back, the past few years, might have been a fairy tale in my head. I had a house, a career, 3 healthy kids, a husband, but I don't know how truly happy I was. <P>In comparison, I don't know that I'm any happier or worse off now either. But I think the lists are a great idea . (are you a virgo?) .<P>I make lots of lists. I write a lot too. Are you writing in a journal? I like to write, and even 3 days later, go back and I read the intensity of what I wrote, and I barely recognize it. I wonder if its that I healed a bit, or moved past it, or buried it? Either way, I realized that things aren't always as bad as they seem even a few days later when your not "entangled" in something.<P>Does that make sense? So while we can all encourage you and support you and really hope that your marriage is saved (because I think most here would hope to see as many saved as possible), in the end, you must do what feels right for you. If it gets too be too much for you, than its ok. You'll always receive support and love here. I just want you to try not to judge too much of this recovery so soon. <P>I remember how moody and up and down I was. I didn't have medical insurance, so we paid for our counseling and couldn't afford much else, but possibly some meds might help you think clearly and also counseling is great too!<P>Be careful who you pick though. They can help make or break the relationship. THe first one we had at 21, helped save it. Later on, we had one that helped end it.<P>I am wishing you the best. Take it slow. There are still days, even one this past week, when I have to take life one hour at a time. I wake up not wanting to get out of bed, wishing I could sleep, and if my kids are here, I take it one hour at a time. At the end of the day, you look back and say I made it! I did it! And I can do it again!<P>Hugs and prayers to you, Dana<P>PS Maybe I missed this, but what became of the OW? Is she out of the picture for good? Did he choose you over her, or did she move on? In my case, I was basically a second choice back then and that was also hard on me and I still wonder about it.<P>

((((((((((CJ))))))))))<P>Hi, sister!<P>I'm not just preaching here. I have tons of trouble with boundaries and am seeing the new counselor. Wasn't my first choice but it beat making the same mistakes ad nauseum.<P>It's scary to go and lay yourself bare to a stranger but sometimes you just need to do it. <P>Here are some extra hugs to get you by while I'm gone.<P>(((((CJ))))) (((((CJ))))) (((((CJ))))) (((((CJ))))) (((((CJ))))) (((((CJ))))) (((((CJ))))) (((((CJ)))))<BR>

Bumper!! YAY! I don't know why, but I enjoy hearing from you and talking to you. It's truly a comfort to me to know that you don't think of me as negative, because I think you have a pretty realistic perception. Thanks for the boost!<P>Dana, a couple of quick answers for you. I am on the cusp of Aries and Taurus (April 20), so I have more energy and creativity than your typical Taurus, but I'm earthy, detailed and "patient" (not stubborn) A lot of my best friends are Virgos, though, and for some reason I just love them and get along with them. By personality type, I am an INFP, so I gather my energy by turning internally, I gather data by intuition, my world is run by FEELINGS!!, and I am perceptive. I'm a perfect mediator or counselor because I can see everyone's point of view and I care about how people feel; but I also take almost everything personally and I do not like conflict and will work very hard to settle a conflict. (Now THAT is a summary--haha).<P>I do write in a journal. I write all the time. I can talk fairly well and I enjoy talking to people in social settings, but when it comes to REALLY letting my feelings out (good and bad) I do it best by writing. I am a gifted writer and I'm humble too!<P>I do take St. John's Wort, and I've been taking it since the day he left. For me, I'm very, very sensitive to medication so I take very little. If I don't take the St. John's Wort, I start to hear a lot of negative self-talk, but if I do, it seems more balanced and steady. I also like the fact that it is an herbal remedy!<P>Last but not least, the OW is out of the picture. What I mean is, once Mark said he was going to reconcile, he "broke up" with her and concentrated on being married. She basically got mad at him for picking me "after everything she had been through for him" (I'm going to be sick) and got pissed off and won't talk to him. This is an odd blessing, I think, because she's not meddling in our lives or trying to win him back. However, it seems to me that he is picking me because she is mad at him--he's picking me because he CAN'T pick her. <P>So, that's all the news that's fit to print. <P><BR>CJ<BR><P>------------------<BR>Judge your success by what you had to give up in order to get it.