I wasn't really going to respond again - but I can't really let this go.<P>We all have choices. You and I can choose to let ourselves become bitter, angry and depressed, and let our spouse's betrayals turn us into unhappy miserable creatures.<P>Or we can have hope. We can choose to love ourselves and treat ourselves with respect. We can choose the path to happiness and fulfillment. How much power we give our spouses over us is our own choice.<P>Whether or not the OW "won" is a matter of perspective. But honestly think about it. If the other woman "won" then you are doing your husbands a grave disservice of disrespect. Your husbands weren't objects to be fought over and "won" by you or another woman. Your husbands are freely choosing, freely thinking human beings.<P>Your husbands <B>chose</B> to dump their obligations, abandon their children, and to break their vows. The OW didn't make them do this. Your husbands chose it.<P>I, like you all, believe that my husband is a good man. I would not have married a bad man. He's a good man that has gotten very very lost. But you know what? Asking for help and getting "unlost" is a choice. He is choosing to stay where he is rather than do what it would take to recover our marriage and recover his spirit. The OW is not stopping him from making these choices. The OW is not, and never has been in control, unless your H <B>chooses</B> to allow it. <P>I do not want to spend my life with a man who chooses to abandon his babies and his vows. I can not love a man who hurts his children the way my H has hurt ours. <P>It's not about the OW. If you talk about the OW winning, you make it about her, and you take away his humanity. You also take away his responsibilty for living his own life. You place all the power and control over <B>your own lives</B> in the hands of the OW.<P>So while I would take my husband back if he were to choose recovery - I have no thoughts whatsoever that his OW won. He chose this path. I am choosing for myself a different path. <P>I can choose to wallow in misery and anger, and refuse to accept the reality of my life. <P>Or I can simply recognize the reality of who my H is at the present, and choose to do something different.<P>Take responsibility for yourselves, and recognize that your husbands also have responsiblity for themselves also. If they give that responsiblity and power to the OW, it's still their own choice that put it there.<P>Why give the OW any more power in your mind than she really has??<p>[This message has been edited by BrambleRose (edited May 14, 2001).]

People are not objects to be won or lost, nor is love a game to be won or lost. When we all choose to place part of our well-being in someone elses hands (a relationship of any kind, be it marriage, friendship, having children, business partners etc.) we accept a risk...that the other person may not meet our expectations, and thereby "hurt" us, emotionally, and/or financially. Some say marital vows are "supposed" to protect from that.... they can't of course, love is not a vow. You can maybe make someone stay in a marriage out of guilt using the vow, but for the most part, humans cannot function that way, and who wants a marriage that is just a contract anyways. Likewise OP cannot "steal" someone, ws all choose to act as they do, and in many cases the ws is also the op and "stealing" too. So if that is the test of whether they are worthwhile human beings, why would anyone feel they lost when they leave? <P>Although it is easy to condemn affairs as morally bankrupt and the individuals as evil, such is not true. The harley's themselves say everyone is capable of an affair, under the right circumstances. This is true cause human beings need to mate, it is how we are programmed. Marriage is the cultural mechanism we have evolved to make the mating process have a social orderliness. But it is not an absolute, because you cannot legalize the drives inside human beings. Affairs are the check and balance to marital mistakes/failures. They are the natural consequence of binding someone in a marriage. We have affairs, because we have marriage. If we had the "open" model of marriage, we would have no affairs, one would just live with whoever they wanted too, everyday, every minute. And rather than seeking a marriage vow, people would instead try to seek someone they fit better, who would always choose them, and they would work much harder on the "marriage" (and understanding themselves) so the other would not choose someone else. IMO one of the downsides of marriage is the false sense of security it offers, that the spouse will always be there, cause we "own" them (vows). In reading the harleys material and other stuff, I am struck, maybe even astounded, by how little effort people put into the marital bond. Plenty of us work diligently making money, keeping house, raising kids, having friends, being good citizens........and make almost no effort to "see" our spouses, and love them for who they are. I am no different, my marriage of 23 years is a wreck, I stayed to get kids raised (responsible) and now find myself emotionally involved with ow, much to my surprise and now guilt (ow has a similar circumstance). If people put a reasonable/responsible effort into picking mates in the first place, and then practiced sound marital "rules", I suspect divorce/affairs would be almost non-existent. Because people would "choose" everyday their spouse as their best friend. <P>No one "loses" in a divorce/affair, being a victim is indeed a state of mind, if not, then we are all victims in life, and may just as well mope about, and give up. Marital breakups are consequences, the consequences of thousands of individual choices made often over decades, the psychology is predictable. The only thing any of us can do when life hands us a raw deal, is learn what we can from it, improve, smarten up, make better choices in the future. Often the future is what we make it, and if we say it is gonna be awful, it may very well be, if we make the best of it, things never imagined, good things, often come to pass. Re marriage, if we think well of ourselves, learn our lessons, and become positive about relationships, we may in fact see our spouse return (I am amazed at how that works sometimes), or we will be a desireable person for someone (yet unknown) to choose us. It is a cliche, but whatever doesn't kill us, makes us stronger.......and I would add, if we let it.<P>My heart breaks for many of you here. Especially those who seem to view your lost spouse as wonderful, and that you somehow failed and lost them. You didn't lose them, you never had them, nor they you. When that became obvious (through an A) there was that last chance to try and find the bond, you did your best, and in their own way the ws did too, whether it seems like it or not. We could all do better, but that is the road to maddness. Grief, pain, suffering are real, and I do not seek to diminish that, but attitude is all important to recovery and future happiness. You cannot change the past, but you can affect the future. At the very least, a positive attitude, not a victim attitude will do wonders for your children. And if nothing else, maybe your kids can learn from their parents marital errors(if over time the events are discussed and understood, not blamed etc,) and make better marriages themselves. It is human nature to view most everything in a win/loss sense, attaching less value to losing, but life is a continuous process, winning or losing is often just a matter of perspective at a given point in time. We have a lifetime to win or lose, and through our kids and interactions with others our winning or losing echoes down through generations. I know that doesn't help much now, but maybe it will help to say reading all your stories (100's of posts) on this site has at least given me a greater understanding for my wife, and what has happened to us. Our future is very uncertain, but it is not cause of ow (who is not waiting or asking me to do anything but stay), it is because of the consequences arising out of the previous 28 years (dating and marriage). One thing I do not understand though is those of you who whose spouses seemed to just leave. My wife will never suffer financially, that is one of my consequences, I am obligated to take care of her as needed. Our kids are raised (mostly), and I had stayed longer (in silence, after finally giving up on marriage) to raise them, but even had not, would still have done so as a n x. Those of you with spouses (especially H) who left you in financial bind, and are doing very little parenting, can't help but make me wonder if you are indeed still not better off, now with the opportunity to find a better mate.

Very well said sad and lonely.

sad_n_lonely:<P>You had some very great things to say in your post, but I take issue with a couple of things:<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><BR>Although it is easy to condemn affairs as morally bankrupt and the individuals as evil, such is not true. The harley's themselves say everyone is capable of an affair, under the right circumstances. This is true cause human beings need to mate, it is how we are programmed. Marriage is the cultural mechanism we have evolved to make the mating process have a social orderliness. But it is not an absolute, because you cannot legalize the drives inside human beings. Affairs are the check and balance to marital mistakes/failures. They are the natural consequence of binding someone in a marriage. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>This is me sounds like rationalization for an affair. As a WS, your fog is talking!<P>You can't legalize drives and emotions. But you can choose action and morality. An affair is a choice, and you can choose not to act upon the temptation.<P>Affairs ARE morally bankrupt. Infidelity is completely ripping apart our society. <P>Affairs are NOT a check and balance. Marriage is not a social evolution, with affairs naturally meant to even things out.<P>Marriage works with Natural law. Affairs disrupt that natural law, and destroys everything in its path.<P>I made vows to God, a sacred covenant, not a legal contract.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>No one "loses" in a divorce/affair, <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>There is a big difference between talking about the OW winning, and then talking about who loses in the affair.<P>Infidelity IS NOT about competition. BUT, our children lose every single time. They're lives will be forever changed, and they are true victims. Even those spouses who continued to financially support their kids have hurt those children beyond belief.<P>We chose our spouses. We may or may not have chosen badly. We may or may not have upheld our parts of the marriage the way we should have done. We still have power and control over our lives.<P>Our children are powerless. They can't pick new parents, and they are the ones who truly are forced to live out the consequences of the selfish choices of the WS.<P>sad_n_lonely, if you have been reading here...then you know that you can not possibly make decisions or participate in your marriage while your OW is waiting in the wings...right?<P>Give your wife the respect she deserves, and give your marriage every possible chance to recover.<P>--BR<P>------------------<BR><I>Pain is a given, misery is optional.</I>

Sad and lonely:<P>I have read your posts in the past and have to agree that you are 100% in the FOG. Your comment that affairs aren't morally bankrupt and the OP are not evil is a prime example. Well, I beg to differ. I am a Christian and adultery is one of the 10 Commandments AND illegal in my state. In my case, the OP is VERY EVIL! Yes, she and my WS are morally bankrupt and evil! How anyone can chose his/her own happiness at the expense and pain of the BS and children is totally beyond me.<P>And you can lie to yourself all you want about no one being the loser in affairs. That's the biggest load of bulls@#t I've ever heard. YOU haven't been there when my children cry themselves to sleep because they miss their daddy. YOU haven't been there when someone who promised to love and cherish you rips your heart out. YOU haven't been there when your WS chooses the OP over you. YOU haven't felt the rejection, because you are the one who is rejecting! <P>So go on with your self-deception. I hope that you will one day WAKE UP! Your long philosophical soapboxes are simply more justification for your affair! Obviously, they make you feel better. Like my WS, you seem to justify how you feel by twisting the truth to suit your needs. Why are you here anyway, looking for someone to tell you that what you have done is alright?

Well said, BrambleRose.<P>Although the Harley's say that everyone is "capable" of having an affair, I don't necessarily agree with that. I'm sorry, but I know myself better than the Harley's do. I am not saying I'm perfect, but I <B>KNOW</B> I would never have an affair. It is a decision I made a long time ago. It it just something I would never do. Period. I do not allow myself to be deceived by that, by the grace of God.<P>I also agree that while the OW DID NOT WIN....I still experienced losses. I lost alot. I lost everything of value to me. But I am not blind to the fact that my H participated in those choices that led to all the losses I have, including financial ones. No matter how great a person he is and how wonderful a H he was, he continues to this day to participate in choices that contribute to my loss.<P>I am so very sorry and feel great compassion for those of us who are facing financial difficulties for ourself and our kids. However, saying who won and who didn't, doesn't change the reality of the situation. The gall-darn truth is....you are in desparate straights, regardless of who won!<P>But just don't get caught in the trap of blame and bitterness towards the OP. That WILL NOT change your situation. Only YOU can change your situation. And if you could just lay down the "who wins" debate, and accept that it is now up to YOU ALONE to make a life for your family, maybe, just maybe, that could help you in those decisions you have to make regarding housing, food, etc. I am not being glib....I really believe negative statements and though patterns can cause physical and "real-world" chains that bind us. And that is no "new-age psycho-babble"....in the Bible, Prov. 7:23 it says "For as the thoughts of his heart are, so is he."<P>By saying that the OW won, you are "binding" yourself to the victim mentality. Please note...I never said being a victim was bad.....we really are all victims of these events. But the "victim mentality" is a very different thing. <P>I know this may be hard to accept at this time and I am not saying that it's easy in the least. I felt very much as many of you did at one time. With the help of this board and the help of the Lord, I have come to see a different truth and it truly has set me free. Has it changed my financial situation? No, not really. But it has changed my attitude towards that situation and now instead of feeling hatred and bitterness toward the OW because of my lack of financial support (which I did, believe me!), I look to God and ask Him to help me make wise decisions and to help make the $$ stretch. It is a very humiliating situation to be in, but I really believe that's the only way God can help us...is for us to humble ourselves. <P>I'm sorry if this comes across as a lecture...I don't mean it that way. I pray for each person in this discussion...that God will meet their needs and give them wisdom in how to make those hard decisions. I also pray that we all can continue to be humble and seek the Lord.<P>Aloha,<BR>Mrs.O<P>PS I want to share a small story that illustrates the "as you think, so are you" verse. I had been hospitalized last October for stress and chest pains. In the follow-up with my doctor, among all the physical tests, etc. that she took, she asked me to do one thing. She asked me to smile everytime I was behind the wheel of my car and think happy thoughts. I thought it was kinda weird, but she asked me to do it for 3 weeks, until my next appointment. So I did.<P>Guess what? Over the next three weeks, I FELT happier and kinder. I really did. Nothing other than that changed and I told her about it. She said that scientific tests are now beginning to show that when you begin to ACT in a certain way (nice, kind, happy) you actually begin to BECOME that. So if you dwell on bitter, negative things...you will become that. If you dwell on positive, happy thoughts, you can actually change your reality. <P>I know this sounds like crap....and I'm the last one to believe in all that new-age stuff....but it worked in my life....just that little experiement. Weird.....<BR>

You can <I>gain</I> or <I>lose</I> a spouse. You can gain or lose love. But you can't <I>win</I> either one. Life is not a competition, and life is not, repeat <I>not</I>, a zero-sum game. Just because one person loses doesn't mean someone else wins. With infidelity and divorce, <I>everyone</I> loses.<P>In one very real sense, all we ever have is who we are. I may not be able to live with my wife. She may repudiate me and my love for her. But I still have my integrity. I still have my faith. I still have my hope. I still have my love. What does my wife have? She has her guilt. She has her fear. She has her self-hatred.<P>In this sense, consider those cases where the OW has apparently "taken possession" of the spouse, the house, the car, the income, etc., etc. What does the OW really have? What has she "won"? I am reminded of Jesus' words: "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for you are like whitewashed tombs, which outwardly appear beautiful, but within they are full of dead men's bones and all uncleanness." (Matthew 23:27, RSV)<P>I'll take pain and poverty any day over <I>that</I>. There's a corollary to the idea that "all we have is who we are". You can run from yourself, but you can never, ever truly <I>escape</I>.<BR>

Br....Indeed it is about choices too, no one made me, or ow choose as we did, I don't seek validation, in the context of marriage we all accept (including me) I was wrong, and deserve negative consequences. But I do understand affairs are inevitable as I said, I just wish I wasn't one of the statistics making that point. As for marriage being the natural order, and affairs working against it, that is nonsensical, and no way to know it. We have both, and could not have one without the other. In fact it is an affair which often creates the crisis necessary to motivate marital restoration, which may well not have occured otherwise. In my case we were ready to divorce for some years, and because I resisted (religious reasons) we did not. Maybe wife would have followed through on threat maybe not. But the affair has elevated the issue to epic proportions. Hence my searching out sites about marriage (partly motivated by guilt), lots of soul searching, in short stuff that may lead to restoration. I have lost the moral high ground of being an emotionally abused spouse. So to satisfy my notions of fairplay, I am the one trying to find resources to stay (even though I would rather leave, but that is the nature of INTP I guess). I finally even took the step of talking to the Harley's today. I doubt would have done any of this had we divorced a few years ago based on just fighting all the time. In short I kinda look at affairs now like a tornado, or earthquake, they just happen when things get too far out of whack, and no one has divorced yet. Is not an excuse, and maybe is fog, a world of perfect marriages, would be wonderful, but such is not reality. Maybe under other circumstances my wife would have had the affair, so (according to harley's) would all of the BS. Just a matter of who got hit by the truck first, everyone is playing in the street.<P>I understand your concern about children, but I must still disagree, there are no victims in life, there is just life. Children of divorce may suffer in observable ways, but they can heal and/or grow too. There is no way to determine that a child may also have suffered without the affair in a marriage that remained loveless. It is pointless to make the children the focus. They can be motivating factors, but not the focus of choosing (or not choosing) to remain with someone as a life partner. I personally do not believe anyone should live in intimacy with someone they do not love, or does not love them. Is a horrible insult to our emotional health. Jennifer (Harley) assures me that that won't happen, that if motivated people do the work, love will be found/restored.... she was quite persuasive, but I still am not sure.<P>And yes rose, you are correct, one cannot maintain an affair, and a restoration. So end the marriage. But, I suppose that even if one feels hopeless, one should consider the long odds, and chance one is mistaken about the death of their marriage before giving up completely, and considering the kids (even if mostly grown) is a big factor in giving something a chance. My main issue is feeling it is manipulative, or like being brainwashed, and I don't like that. <P>I am curious about something though, folks are terribly concerned about the BS, and the kids, and even the extended family. No one seems to care at all about the one trying to leave the marriage. Let's hogtie em, chain em up, saddle em with vows, guilt, the whole thing....who cares if they are happy long as everyone else is....how dare they have any feelings of their own, cept what we say they can. And if they have other ones, let's FIX the sob....what's that all about?

Hey, S&L - about your last statement.<P>now you KNOW that's not what I say, right? I don't need to repeat all my stuff again? You must do what you must do and not all marriages can be saved, but you must do things the RIGHT WAY! And that means no OP to fall on while you're working at restoration.<P>And, btw, about restoration...<P>Well, after about 3000 posts here, I've sorta been here a long time (popping in again today 'cause I got an email to check on someone and checked on you, too). Remember, I'm (more happily every day ) married to one of those poor guys who really wanted out of his marriage....who finally found the woman he SHOULD'VE found all those years ago...who finally discovered what real love was.....who never should have married me in the first place...who had never really loved me and I never really loved him...who wished I had died....don't have enough time for the rest of 'em, but read your own posts and you get the drift.<P>That same man called me the other morning for no reason to tell me how proud he is of me. He sat in our back yard this afternoon with me looking at the flowers with our own private picnic dinner and told me how "in love" with me he is. He tells me over and over again that the biggest mistake he ever made was walking out on me and losing that time we could've had together. And I've never asked for so much as an a single apology....but he tells me (and whoever will listen) how happy he is and what a great life we have.<P>Honey, I do understand how you feel. All I've ever asked is that you do things the right way. You may just be surprised at the results. At the very least, you can be proud of the way you handled your life.<P>Just stop the justifications and get real - this is all emotional and you're trying to find a way to rationalize. But you're smart. You know this.<P>Oops, Robert's outta the shower...and we're alone! Talk to you guys when I can get back.<P>Lori<P>

I'm sorry, Discarded, I have to apologize for hopping on your thread. Something about S&L just brings it out in me. Please forgive me.<P>Lori

Living...Your comment that affairs aren't morally bankrupt and the OP are not evil is a prime example. Well, I beg to differ. I am a Christian and adultery is one of the 10 Commandments AND illegal in my state. <P>Sad...I agree, they are wrong. My point was they can and must happen....and will continue to do so until the root problems are fixed. Human beings will survive, and oftentimes an affair is emotional survival. I am a Christian too, and am horrifed to find myself here, hopefully you will always remain a better Christian.<P>Living...And you can lie to yourself all you want about no one being the loser in affairs. That's the biggest load of bulls@#t I've ever heard. YOU haven't been there when my children cry themselves to sleep because they miss their daddy. YOU haven't been there when someone who promised to love and cherish you rips your heart out. YOU haven't been there when your WS chooses the OP over you. YOU haven't felt the rejection, because you are the one who is rejecting! <P>Sad....One must be careful about trading my stuff is worse than your stuff. Try living with someone telling you for 23 years you are worthless....lots of kinds of rejection, and all are bad. I am sorry for you and your kids, no one deserves this. I do not know your story, but if you can I would like to ask you a question, why would you want your husband if he does not want you? Isn't having your heart torn, infinitely better than having an intimate relationship with someone who does not love you, just stays cause of duty or religious vows.<P>Living...So go on with your self-deception. I hope that you will one day WAKE UP! Your long philosophical soapboxes are simply more justification for your affair! Obviously, they make you feel better. Like my WS, you seem to justify how you feel by twisting the truth to suit your needs. Why are you here anyway, looking for someone to tell you that what you have done is alright?<P>Sad......There is no justification for the affair. There is only understanding....I was WRONG WRONG WRONG. I do not feel any better at all, but I do seek to understand. And no one is going to tell me what I did was allright.<P>

This is the most ridiculous b***s*** that I have ever read here or on any other boards (including the TOW board)!<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I understand your concern about children, but I must still disagree, there are no victims in life, there is just life. Children of divorce may suffer in observable ways, but they can heal and/or grow too. There is no way to determine that a child may also have suffered without the affair in a marriage that remained loveless.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>THERE IS NO EVIDENCE THAT CHILDREN "GROW" FROM DIVORCE, AND THERE IS A GREAT DEAL OF EVIDENCE THAT THEY NEVER FULLY HEAL. THERE IS ALSO A LOT OF EVIDENCE THAT CHILDREN ARE BETTER OFF IN A 2 PARENT FAMILY, REGARDLESS OF HOW "HAPPY" THE MARRIAGE IS, AS LONG AS THERE IS NO ABUSE. <P>And who declared you in charge of deciding that any one else's marriage was "loveless?" Mine certainly was not.

Discarded:<P>I am also sorry for jumping in on your thread. I am just so angered and disgusted by snl

SNL:<P>Do not even begin to compare you hurt with mine! I think you are in the fog and your marriage may not have been QUITE SO BAD! I do not profess to be a better person. I simply honored my marriage vows and you did not! Not a judgement, but a fact.<P>As for saying that affairs must happen. You are so right, when the DEVIL is in your life! God is not the center of your life when you commit adultery!!!!<P>So staying in a loveless marriage (sounds so trite coming from a WS) is cause for a divorce? NOT IN GOD'S EYES! If you are the Christian you profess to be, then you know that God HATES divorce. You have also probably found out from this site and others that love is a DECISION, not a feeling. <P>When you ask why I want someone who doesn't want me, you might as well slap me in the face! Why, you ask? I made vows to God that I would love, honor and cherish this man in sickness and in health (ie good times and bad). I had children with this man. I AM NOT A QUITTER! So, he chose to quit on the marriage (like you want to), I should? <P>If your marriage was so bad, you would have left long ago! Having an affair has magnified all of your wife's faults, so you don't have a clear picture anymore. Don't fool yourself about this OP. Why would she choose an affair? Why does she choose to stay with her H? You think if you leave your wife that she will leave her H? Why hasn't she done that already if you are all that?<P>SNL, I'm really not an evil or ugly person in normal situations. It just seems that every time you respond, it's more and more BS. I don't think that all marriages can be saved. I just have a real problem with you professing to be a Christian and committing adultery at the same time. They don't go hand in hand.<P>I have intimate experience with divorce in my life. I know firsthand (without being a BS or WS) what divorce can do to a person and especially what it can do to children. You say your kids are grown - it won't hurt them any less than it will hurt my kids who are small. Perhaps you ought to consider this - innocent people often pay for the backlash of sin.....

allright, leave the last word to you (nellie and living)... I try to avoid my life is worse than your life arguments, they are fruitless, but I was weak, my apologies. You may very well be completely right, and myself only influenced by satan. btw I am intimately familiar with divorce myself, as a child, and was determined it would never happen to my children. And nellie, current research has modified the divorce and children consequences. Now they (the psychologists) know divorce itself does no harm to children, it is the aftermath. As long as children are parented after the divorce, no discernible difference in maturation, adolescent problems, adult coping skills etc. are evident. The problem is, due to friction between divorced parents, many children are not parented, instead are pawns in revenge, or are simply neglected. There are plenty of messed up kids raised in 2 parent families....by messed up parents. I bear no one any illwill, I understand the emotions, but I only say what I think and feel and do it as honestly as I can, it is not bs, anymore than some of the bs I hear coming from the BS's here. However I am sorry if I distressed you, I try hard not to, but no one has a corner on the truth of religion, morality, or marriage. And in fact, many marriages are not about love, but are dependentcies, nor is love only a decision, if it were we would have no divorce, or crime, or hurt of any kind, but then we would not be human beings, we would be robots without an emotional component to our lives. Personally I do not want my wife to decide to love me, I want her to feel in love with me. And if she does not, I do not want her in my bed (so to speak). I would rather live alone, than be loved by someone making themself (deciding) to love me.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Now they (the psychologists) know divorce itself does no harm to children<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>That is completely false. Recent research has shown just the opposite, that children are harmed far more than was thought even when both parents continue to parent, and that the harm is permanent and often the worst effects do not show up for years - the "sleeper effect."

nellie, do a search of current studies re children and divorce, you will find the stuff I mentioned. I personally don't have any expertise at all, was just mentioning what I have read. But I do know I am eternally grateful my mom through my dad out, and they did not parent me together. He was a mean drunk (but not a bad man otherwise, who did work, pay the bills etc.), married someone else had 2 kids (my 1/2 sister and brother)...his wife stuck by him 35 years, and those 2 kids are screwed up beyond belief....kind of a real life outcome, studies are just well..... studies.

The OM didn't win, there was never a contest. My STBX was unhappy & he was more than happy to step in and exploit that. Had I realized that there was someone else in my wifes life, I could have figured out what was broken & fixed it. But, like most BS's I didn't find out until my STBX had completely detached.<P>But, that's all water under the bridge now. My life will go on, and I'll recover. My son will never, ever get the opportunity to have a normal childhood. My STBX & her boyfriend have made sure of that.<P>But, she's happy now. And that makes it all right. That's what really matters. Isn't that correct snl?<P>------------------<BR>nick<P>it's only time that heals the pain <BR>and makes the sun come out again<P><p>[This message has been edited by c00ker (edited May 15, 2001).]

cooker....This was a thread on winning and losing, I was trying to look at it more philosophically, rationally too I suppose. It is interesting that many here believe love is a decision not a feeling, yet think unhappiness is a feeling and not a decision..... it is tough being human methinks, we are all so self-serving in so many ways....just we always think our particular brand of self-serving is somehow better than others.<P>Anyways, I am saddened to also hear your outcome, I would prefer all couples resolve differences and become happy again, especially when children are involved. And yes, being happy is all that counts, it is how we measure success as human beings. The problem is we can be happy for the wrong reasons, and therein lies the rub, how to know that. Your sons childhood will be different, but it does not have to be worse. We have no possible way of knowing what the future brings for us (or whether a particular path is better or worse than another), but we do have some control over attitude, and that has a great effect on how the future unfolds in our lives. On balance, looking back from my 50 years of life, much of it spent trying to understand why people do what they do, and why I do what I do, I would say (in general most of the time, but not always), one should not leave a marriage until a good faith effort has been made to implement the harley's concepts. I don't want to, but I am finding it difficult to come up with an acceptable reason not too (meaning can I look in the mirror). I am also telling the ow (who feels hopeless, but cannot see leaving her marriage, just remaining lonely but loyal) to come here, read the stuff, and try it in her marriage. No one should live in a loveless marriage, for any reason, nor do I think that is what God wants for us. You either fix it....and it has to work for both, or you end it.

Well, you seem to searching for validation for yourself here. I think that's a little sad.<P>If you are happy & the OW are happy, by all means, make yourselves happy. Then you will have your ideal of success. My idea of happiness and success is not quite so self centered....<P>So by all means to your own self be true. Just don't expect to get a lot of support on a forum called "Marriage Builders" for ending your marriage to make yourself happy.<P>But don't you dare presume lecture me on how my sons childhood will be as a result of his mother's abandonment of me.<P>------------------<BR>nick<P>it's only time that heals the pain <BR>and makes the sun come out again