SNL,<P>Wow - I have so many things I could say - but I have a feeling it would be like trying to convince my ex that his affair was not the right thing to do - pointless...<P>For the record, love is a VERB - something you DO..."unhappy" is an adjective - a description...to remain in a state of unhappiness is a decision, however. We all have a responsibility to ourselves and our spouses to do whatever it takes to be happy WITHIN THE BOUNDARIES OF THE MARRIAGE TO WHICH WE PLEDGED OURSELVES - getting to "happy" from a state of "unhappy" might require a little work, a little learning of communication skills, a little stepping outside the "taker" box, and maybe a little leap of faith now and again. It won't happen by itself, and it certainly won't happen when a WS spends all their time trying to rationalize behavior that is just plain wrong. <P>I'm pretty sure you know the difference between right and wrong...it's the part that makes looking in the mirror difficult.<P>As for the effects of divorce on children...I strongly urge you to read "The Unexpected Legacy of Divorce" - which is a 25 year longitudinal study on the effects divorces on children as well as a comparison group of children who grew up in "unhappy" but 2 original parent homes. Try dropping some of your defenses when you read it...it should be very eye opening for you.<P>Lisa<BR>

See this is crap...I really feel no remorse at all for a WS any WS. If you are unhappy in a marriage......GET OUT.. then you can play.<BR>Come on people we are not Jr. high kids, you just dont ask someone to "go with you" then by the end of the day you are interested in someone else. <BR>Not that this is a good analogy.. but if you have a car that your unhappy with you FIX it, or get rid of it, THEN get another car.. What is the get a new car...keep the old one around JUST in case you dont like the NEW car.<P>I have no respect for my STBX...ya I am sure that she was unhappy with the marriage. she told me MANY times after the fact. But you know what that is NO NO NO excuse for going against VOWS that were made in front of GOD and everyone.<BR>If she was so damn unhappy she sould have left me a long time ago. Then found someone that made her happy.<BR>She gave me this crap.."I hope that someday you know what it is like to be married to someone, then start having feelings for someone else" BullS**T....I told her "I hope to hell that you have the experience of loving some one and getting married to them then having them have an affair behind you back"<P>And that it what i think that most WS dont think about.<BR>I'm sorry if i sound like an A**. But to all the WS spouses that have never been cheated on.. if you think that your life is SO bad.. wait untill what you sent around comes back around. then talk about how much pain you have.<P>Sorry for venting..i just get sick of people that are wrong in their actions trying to justify what they did.<BR>PLus it is my 2nd anniversary and im sure my STBX is spending it with her Muscular GYM MAN(married I might add)<P>------------------<BR>Experience is what you get when you don't get what you want.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by sad_n_lonely:<BR><B>We have no possible way of knowing what the future brings for us (or whether a particular path is better or worse than another), </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>WRONG!!! We DO have a way of knowing which "path is better or worse than another." God has told us very clearly in His word, that if we choose righteousness, we will be blessed and happy (read Matthew 5). There are so many verses I could quote right now that refer to following the way of the Lord, which leads to life, or choosing to follow the "way that seems right to a man, but in the end leads to death."<P>I don't know where you are coming from, but I disagree with so much of what you have said. Affairs are NOT destined to happen; children ARE hurt long-term by divorce; being happy is NOT what counts, being righteous is. You are comeing from a very humanistic point of view; when you measure all things by God's word, happiness is a by-product of righteousness and it's obedience and righteousness that God requires of us. In fact, He never said He came to bring us happiness. <P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by sad_n_lonely:<BR><B>I don't want to, but I am finding it difficult to come up with an acceptable reason not too (meaning can I look in the mirror). </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I'm sorry, but that's BS. You DO want to leave the marriage...you've made it very clear and your actions (OW) speak louder than words. I think you need a new mirror, because the one you are using now is cracked and only reflects what you want to see.<P>Some day you will see all things clear and that's the only "mirror" that will count. <P><B>1 Corinthians 13:12 - <BR>For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I will know fully just as I also have been fully known.</B><BR>

SNL, <P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>being happy is all that counts, it is how we measure success as human beings<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>That is a terrifying statement. That is NOT how we measure success as human beings. A successful human being is one who does right to the best of his or her ability, one who never intentionally harms another. As an atheist, I do not think that your statement is a humanistic statement as someone described it - it is an evil statement.

Mrs. O, I generally don't engage much in theological debates, because no one can claim to know the truth...right? God moves in many mysterious ways, and it always bemuses me when someone says they "know" what God wants, what is righteous, and so forth. There is no earthly way to know for certain God's plan for any of us re marriage. We all "think" we know, and huddle with those who "think" like we do, and make various pronouncements, and judgements re His will. I am just as certain as you are (assuming you are an absolutist) that God does not wish for each marriage that exists, to have come to be, or continue to exist. Nor do I believe in the doctrine that if we find ourselves in a bad place (of any kind) in life that we are to just sigh, say it is the will of God, and endure in stoic silence. Rather I think we are to be proactive, and have a wide range of choices available to us. I have read everything I can find on Christian marriage, and there is absolutely nothing that says categorically what marriage is, when oneflesh has occurred (and what it is), or that God cannot work to dissolve a marriage. Since God is all powerful, I am certain He can and does work in marriages in a variety of ways, including working to dissolve them. Having stated the obvious, let me add I am not a humanist. I am a fundamental Christian. I am praying a great deal for discernment, and for protection from temptation, God is firmly in control of my life, I gave it to Him long ago, and I give my current circumstances to Him as well. But I do know no one else can know what God's plan is for me, or what it cannot be, I must listen closely for His direction. But I do appreciate your efforts to witness to me as well.

SNL,<P>I just can't leave this one alone...It sounds to me like you've been going to the same school of fundamental Christian theology as Bill Clinton, Jesse Jackson, et. al.<P>Yikes.<P>Lisa

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by sad_n_lonely:<BR> Rather I think we are to be proactive, and have a wide range of choices available to us.[/B]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>SnL,<BR>i have a question about this statement. If a person married someone and became unhappy. Dont you think it would be "proactive" of that person to leave the marriage when they realize that they are unhappy.<BR>OR should they stay in the marriage and go find someone on the side to make themselves happy.<P>I had a friend in college that broke up with a girl and moved away. I talked to her about it and tried to console her. and she told me flat out that "no matter what she will not be alone" she said " I am going to be happy, no matter how unhappy I make others".. that scared the hell out of me.<P>and guess what...she dropped out of college and started an affair with a MM who was the husband of one of her best friends. So she broke up their family(man+wife+baby). And she made many comments about how she didnt care cause she was happy and that is all that matters in life.<P>So huh? i ask you... it that really all that matters in life, your own personal happiness.. and screw everyone else???<P><P>------------------<BR>Experience is what you get when you don't get what you want.

Please let's not waste anymore time on SNL. There was a thread about month ago over on General Question and the best of the best here at MB tried getting thru to him. He is truly beyond reach. What I can't understand is why he is still here? No one is going to validate him here and he's not helping anyone else. So the only thing I can think of is he has such a huge ego that he thinks someone gives a rat's a#$ about what he thinks. FWIW, I hope his wife kicks him to the curb and goes out and finds a real man.<P>Then again maybe you are communicating with your OW thru this forum? Others have done it before.<p>[This message has been edited by KalGrl (edited May 15, 2001).]

Bio....Yes, I do think people should be proactive about unhappy marriages, and I fought tooth and nail for resolution for years...I took us too counsellors, I changed my behaviour.... my wife quit counselling, and changed nothing, using anger and emotional abuse to control me. Am I perfect? Not hardly, but I tried to find resolution. Finally I gave up, just putting my time in till kids raised. Should I have kept trying...I suppose, some would say you never give up till your last breath...well condemn me then, I am not that strong. Unfortuneately I succombed to an affair before a divorce was filed for, so I must live with that wrongness....However the ow is never going to leave her marriage, so if I do leave mine, I will be doing it alone, as I should....and actually I am glad the ow is not leaveing, I want to do this on my own, not from some sort of temptation. <P>Bio...So huh? i ask you... it that really all that matters in life, your own personal happiness.. and screw everyone else???<P>Sad....I am not sure that is a fairly stated question Bio. Depends obviously on the circumstances.....but let me ask you a question....is one's happiness totally unimportant? Thid happiness thingy is a strawman argument, and not really worthy of debate IMO, if everyone in the world were unhappy, would be a pretty lousy place to live don't ya think? So obviously happiness is important. Let me ask you another question, would you bind your spouse to you by vows, make them live with you for 50, 60 years or more, sleep in your bed, if they don't love you? If so, why? I have no sexual interest in my spouse at all, yet have slept with her a few times lately at her insistence, and performed as well as I could.....when she asked me how I felt, I told her honestly...like a prostitute....should I have lied? Yet she has asked me again since, and I complied....is that right? Am I an object to be used? Some say the Bible makes it clear I am, that a spouse owes the other sexual access, too bad if you aren't "happy" about it. This is intolerable, makes one suicidal, who wants to be an "object" in a marriage........that is what is wrong with the vows, duty, you owe me arguments, they turn people into objects to be owned....frankly that does not strike me as a good basis for remaining married.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by sad_n_lonely:<BR><B> Let me ask you another question, would you bind your spouse to you by vows, make them live with you for 50, 60 years or more, sleep in your bed, if they don't love you? </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P><BR>I actually got a good laugh from that question.. <BR>The spouse bound THEMSELVES to the vows. Were you forced to get married? maybe maybe not.<BR>I really and truely have NO problem what so ever with someone seeking happiness. It would still have hurt me if my wife would have came to me and said<BR>"I have to be honest with you I am unhappy with you and I dont think we should stay married"<BR>Yes that would hurt me probally just as much as i am hurt now. But i am a very honest man.. and i can honestly tell you, that i would have respected her. And i would have told everyone that.<BR>But that is not how she did it, and that is not how most WS do it....<BR>IT IS THE COWARDS WAY!!!!!!!!!<BR>and WS's can not use that lame [censored] excuse <BR>"you dont know how hard it is to just leave someone you have been with for so long"<BR>BullS**T... if that is the case then is should be just as hard to Screw someone other than your spouse.... That is leaving them too... at least in mine and heart.<BR>I repeat. i have NO respect and i feel no sympathy for a man or woman that is unfaithful to their spouse. <BR>Some things have no excuse!!!!<BR><P>------------------<BR>Experience is what you get when you don't get what you want.

Just heard this on the radio yesterday and wanted to add it into the dicsussion (pay attendion SNL) re: the cost of divorce on children:<P><B>Dr. Armand Nicoli of the Harvard Medical School has said, "The trend toward quick and easy divorce, and the ever-increasing divorce rate, subject more and more children to physically and emotionally absent parents." He added that if the trend continued, "the quality of family life will continue to deteriorate, producing a society with a higher incidence of mental illness than ever before." </B><P>I don't have kids, but my nephew and nieces have been totally affected by the divorce of their parents. And those are parents that were and are still very involved in their lives.<P>Aloha,<BR>Mrs.O<BR>

BioMan - Right on!!! I agree with you completely. If our spouses were so unhappy, why didn't they tell us, get effective help, admit to their part in the problem instead of merely putting all the blame on us? It was only after they found OP and started an affair that they began to see that they were so unhappy that they needed to leave! A good marriage is not just about "finding the right person" - it is about "being the right person". If one is so unhappy and thinks their spouse is not the right person, why aren't they asking themselves if they are being a good mate to their spouse? Answer: Selfishness, and an inability to take personal responsibility. How much easier is it to just leave and avoid taking responsibility, rather than stay and face yourself? My H left after 17 years, telling me that he had wanted to leave for 10-12 years and that he was waiting for me to think, feel, act, etc. the way he thought I should. Since the OW felt the same way he did about many things, he felt that life would be better with her. He had treated me badly for last 8-9 years of our marriage - I unknowingly used Plan A, continued to be loving, patient, etc., even though he almost completely withdrew from me emotionally and physically. I tried to meet all his needs without expecting anything in return but love and respect, but he wouldn't even give that. I had none of my needs met, but I did not abandon him or our marriage or have an affair. But he was the one who had the affair, walked out, leaving me devastated.<P>You're right - it is the coward's way out!! My H realized on some level that in order to save our marriage, he would have to admit how badly he treated me and would have to face that he had not been the kind of person that he would like to think he is. I was a reminder of his cruelty and coldness. It was easier to go to someone with whom he could reinvent himself with, someone he had not mistreated, and who had not seen his bad side. It allowed him to start over again and disavow his unloving behavior towards me. Rather than face himself, he get rid of me. I wonder if he will ever face the truth?

Mrs. O...I am all for 2 parent parenting, but as I said, I am eternally grateful my mom sent my dad packing...so clearly maintaining a marriage (for the kids) is not always good....right? Kids should be a factor in everything we (parents) do, of course...but they cannot be the sole reason for maintaining a marriage. But I am curious about something, what harm might be done to children when one partner to a marriage is there against their will, and only stays out of guilt/coercion...what does that teach a child about that most intimate of human relationships the bond between husband and wife.....I can't help but wonder if teaching them is not about love, only duty is a good thing. I know many of you think love is unimportant, that the "picture" is all that counts, that marriage is only duty a contract, nothing more (not saying you do Mrs. O) but I have trouble with that. Humans who are forced to stay together don't do very well far as I can see.