There is another book I read last year called "Women Who Love Too Much." I am not sure of the author of it, but I think I am going to read it again. It was the first book I read on codependency and I bought it because I thought it was about divorce/women's issues. What I found inside disturbed me. I learned some key behaviors that I exhibited, though I do not consider myself as having codependent tendencies or leaning toward specific relationship patterns with addicts or alcoholics or the like. The book mainly deals with patterns and how to avoid them. Very helpful. <P>I wish I had a printer to print this page out. Great post, BR. I read it about four times. I truly believe in the first line, and we can apply this to all our relationship problems, not just infedelity and alcoholism.

Nell, you are being too hard on yourself. <<I admit I am not as evolved as many who successfully practice Al-Anon dogma. [hanging head]... I'm sorry, I'm just not with the detaching with love yet... it just doesn't come overnight for me, nor does it come easily.>> It's one of the hardest concepts to get, and really practice. Especially when you're right in the middle of a difficult situation. The benefit of detaching with love is that it releases you from the obsession with the alcoholic. Not caring anymore involves either denial or anger or both, both of which keep you stuck. I'm not there yet myself, but I keep working on it, and praying about it.<P>

Some days it's hard to detach with love! It's not a free-flowing choice I make ~ I actually have to make a conscious choice so it is an effort. It's not easy so don't be so darn hard on yourself.<P>Most days I don't feel my H is deserving of the love I have to offer him. I'm not as affectionate or loving to him in regard to showering him with love. We actually have a status-quo love right now. We get along, but it's nothing fantastic - I just can't give myself fully to him right now. I can't be vulnerable just yet, but I'm not mean spirited towards him.<P>Have a great day, all!<P> <P>------------------<BR><B><I>RECOVER * REFOCUS * REGENERATE ~ BREATHE * RELAX</I></B><P>By Eleanor Roosevelt ~~<BR><UL TYPE=SQUARE><BR><LI>"People grow through experience if they meet life honestly and courageously. This is how character is built." <P><LI>"No one takes advantage of you without your permission."<BR></UL>

Nell, and all,<P>It took me sooooooo long to detach with anything other than immense sorrow.<P>When I first got together with my (now)H, he had to live with my withdrawls from my ex-H. That's one of the reasons I say that you need time to heal first. I cried many tears for the man who had been my H for 20 years. It didn't mean I didn't know inside that he was gawd-awful for me (by then) but it HURT. Pain is pain, and you have to go through it, one way or the other. Unfortunately, I caused extra pain to my H by doing my grieving in front of him. THAT'S why you should WAIT and get through the PROCESS before allowing another person in... alas, I didn't, and I wasn't about to throw away a beautiful man who loved me because **I** did everything back-asswards...<P>This whole thing (divorce, esp. from a long-term marriage) is HELL to live through. But it can be done.<P>

Nyneve,<P>I agree with recovering before getting into another relationship! If my marriage fails for whatever reason, I will try my darndest to remain man-free until I heal. I would like to enjoy some alone time or else I'll carry the baggage with me into the next relationship. I have always felt as though I needed a man in my life to be complete.<P>It amazed me this morning as I realized my line of thinking has changed in regard to seeing people who have never been married and are at least 35 or older.<P>Generally my thoughts would be "what's wrong with them". And this morning I saw an older person running and I didn't see a wedding band and I thought "how wonderful they never settled". I now envy those who have chosen to be single and to pick and choose their destiny. I think these people are strong!<P>This is a very positive step for me! <P>

Hi guys, wow, I've been very busy the last few days, and look at what my old thread has sparked! <P>My Al-Anon sponsor has always said to me that if I can't detach with love, that I can always detach with courteousy.<P>Detaching with anger simply keeps me engaged in the situation or with the other person. And frankly, I do think you get back what you put out there into the universe. So if being polite is all you can do...that's fine.<P>And Nell....Al-Anon is about progress, not perfection! And it's not "dogma", it's really up to you to take what works for you personally, and leave the rest!<P>(((((hugs)))))

Hi, BrambleRose,<P>I loved your original posting! Are you still very active in al-anon (weekly basis)? I want to get my H to a meeting or two since his mom and step-dad are very active with their alcoholism. I can tell when he's talked to one of them because he gets so angry and takes it out on me or the kids (not physically just snaps at us). <P>We are going to have an action plan to detach from them a little. We usually spend a lot of summer days at their camp on the lake, but we are looking at alternative plans. The boys love swimming and fishing at the camp, but it's more halthy and beneficial to find another watering hole.<P>Thank you for sharing your recovery experience with us! It works...<P>

Hi Free,<P>Yes I'm active in Al-Anon. I attend weekly face to face meetings, and also participate in an online email group. I hold a couple of service positions with the online group also. And, most importantly, I have a wonderful sponsor who has had 15 years in the program herself ~ she keeps me on track, and formally working the steps.<P>I hope you go to some meetings - I honestly think that the 12 steps are a wonderful guide to living a healthy, happy life.<P>--BR<P>------------------<BR><I>Pain is a given, misery is optional.</I>

Hi guys (gals). Just wanted to put my two cents in regarding detaching, alanon and coda. I realized last fall that my H has a drinking problem, although he doesn't think so, but it causes problems for me so I've been to various alanon meetings sporadically since then. I had a lot of built-up resentment and couldn't manage detaching very well and didn't have the patience to keep trying so I moved out. He says he wants to work on our marriage and he has been going to counseling but still doesn't acknowledge a drinking problem. He doesn't drink every day but whenever he does (usually a few times a week), it's to catch a buzz, to 'relax' because he's stressed, to 'unwind', to 'loosen up' at a party. In effect, to run away from uncomfortable feelings, including the deterioration of intimacy and closeness in our marriage. And although I've told him many times specifically what I need from him (tell me that he loves me without me telling him first, hugs, kisses, maybe flowers once in a while, etc), he's never done any of this, at least not for more than a day or two before he stops again. So now since I am not very good at detaching, even in our separation, we are currently speaking to divorce mediators, which I am not overjoyed about, but I do believe it is the lesser of the two evils at this point.<P>ANYWAY, having been to both alanon and coda meetings, personally I find the coda meetings more practical for me and also better from a detachment point of view. In alanon, I feel like the focus is somehow always on my qualifying alcoholic (my H) while in coda the focus is really on my behaviors that contribute to ALL of my unhealthy relationships (and potential unhealthy relationships). Many people in coda have alanon experience, but not all. I have found it just as helpful as alanon and maybe even more so because there I can better address my issues with relationships of non-alcoholics as well; i.e. my family of origin, my workmates, my personal friends, etc. Like with all of these groups however, I would suggest attending a few and drawing your own conclusions, they may be quite different from my experiences.<BR>

I'm a work in progress, traveling on the healing highway from codependency and alcoholism to sanity. I hope I didn't sound rude referring to Al-Anon's "dogma." I was alluding to the Steps and Traditions which I keep in full view of my computer and relate to often. I just think it's a cool word.<P>I have to think that where I'm at as far as detachment is normal and OK. I'm extremely sensitive to criticism, no matter how constructive or helpful (no, none of you "stepped on my toes"). I could just bite the finger that gets wagged in my face to punctuate just what I "need" to be doing or how I "need" to be feeling in order to reach Al-Anon Nirvana. Please don't take offense; I'm referring to the few cloaked, holier than thou, 12-Step zealots.<P>The best thing I can do right now is detach with distance. We can't even be courteous to each other, at least I can't. I am so completely furious with what I let this man do to my life, now that it's all for naught, I don't want to look at him, hear his voice, or read his words. I don't want to cooperate without the assistance of my lawyer. I don't want him to see me in a weakened or manic state, because there's so much at stake in our settlement. I feel I need to keep him guessing as to what I'm up to because this time, this time ladies, I get the upper hand. Yes, it sounds aggressive and unloving. I wish I could say we are capable of sitting together and dividing the tea cups and silverware, but that is a great departure from reality.<P>So, on the one hand my anger is quite functional and helps to serve a purpose. I'm trying at least to focus on the settlement process of my divorce. On the other hand, I don't want to hang onto this forever. I want to rise above the man who kicked me down for so many years, and who still stands to take so much from me. If he wants to take pot shots at me, he'd better be prepared for my army.<P>I have a serious emotional disorder that is stable right now. I fear if I let my guard down, I will lose control of myself and lose my son. My H is suing me for custody, support, and lawyer's fees. I realize it's mostly legal hot air, but I've been blindsided enough the past 14 years that I know better now than to let my guard down. I was so gullible to his manipulations that I fear coming under his influence again. I am going through this alone; my family lives far in another state. I guess that's why I belong to 7 (or is it 8?) support groups. They are my surrogate family, like you.<P>Now that I've stolen this thread I hope I can leave you with the impression that I'm willing to learn and change. I actually thrive on education stimulation! I feel I need to take baby steps though, and because of my medical disorder, I have a propensity for isolated, self-indulgent, irrational, capricious, subjective thinking. I may be hard on myself, and that's part of the clinical picture as well. I've never had a sponsor per se, but I have casually "adopted" those I felt would be more understanding of my idiosyncrasies. And for the most part, I feel pretty safe with y'all. <P>Steps 4 & 5,<BR>Nell

BR, I went to court today to get a permanent (3 year) restraining order against my H. I kept reminding myself about your "detach with courtesy" suggestion. He brought OW with him but didn't bring her into the courthouse (my lawyer drove by them in the car together). <P>I was shocked when I saw my H. He looked puffy and bloated, a complete change from a month ago. After court, I ran into my stepson who I haven't seen in about 3 weeks. He said he stopped by his grandparents trailer at the beach, where my H is living with the OW, and my H is drinking very heavily, finishing his 1st 5th of Seagram's 7 before 9 a.m.! <P>My H threw one of his screaming fits at my stepson's girlfriend while they were there and my H and stepson got into a fight until my H locked himself in the bedroom. My H told his son that he wants to fulfill his dream to drink himself to death like Nicolas Cage in his favorite movie, Leaving Las Vegas. <P>Well, I had an Al-Anon moment (several really) in which I was going to go to the beach to try to get him hospitalized as a danger to himself or I was going to orchestrate getting him arrested since my stepson has a warrant out for his arrest because my H's drugs and paraphenalia were found in a room my stepson had previously occupied. Fortunately, I talked to my lawyer and my sponsor 1st and got over the impulse. I decided that he wouldn't be trying so hard to get money out of me if he was imminently suicidal. Drinking oneself to death isn't as romantic as all that.<P>Anyway, as you can see, I'm struggling with detachment. BTW, where can I find online Al-Anon?<P>Nell, I totally understand how you feel. Going through a similar situation myself, as you can see.

Detaching with courtesy and love...ok, my ex is out of state, has not contacted me in over two months (the last time we met, he finally admitted his problem but denied its seriousness). He did not do something very very important for me and left town and cannot be reached. His cell is turned off constantly and does not recieve incoming calls. <P>My question is this: by attending al-anon or coda meetings, am I opening up old wounds? I never see him or talk with him, so I would say the detachment is pretty well taken care of. I am afraid by attending al-anon or thinking about it as much as I am, I am getting caught up in a cycle again. Here is why:<P>Since I have been researching al-anon and reading about alcoholism and talking with all of you, I have a stronger desire to: <BR>1) tell his brother about his problem because he is a recovering alcoholic himself<BR>2) call him and see how he is doing<BR>3) talk to a lawyer regarding stupid legal decisions I made during the divorce proceedings in order to protect my credit and life<P>With the exception of # 3, isn't that what detachment ISN'T about??<P>

gsd, yes, that's what detachment ISN'T about. But not thinking about it isn't detachment with love either. The "with love" is the hard part. It's not hard to detach with anger or even indifference, but if scraping the surface by reading gets you back into the codependent mode, then you're just like all the rest of us and that's why we're going to Al-Anon. Detachment with love or even courtesy, doesn't mean you have to be "in love" but that you are able to separate yourself from another person, recognize their personhood and their right to live their own life and for you to live yours. I don't know if I'm expressing this very well, maybe BrambleRose will jump in here and help out!

This is where I go to post about alcoholism, Al-Anon, codependency, domestic violence, etc. <A HREF="http://www.alcoholismhelp.com/" TARGET=_blank>http://www.alcoholismhelp.com/</A> There are numerous discussion areas. I found it to be user-friendly and supportive, encompasing virtually all topics surrounding alcohol-related issues.<P>Blessings,<BR>Nell

I too have a need to "detach with love" in my marriage (what outwardly resembles a marriage anyway). I've been faithfully visiting the emotional needs forum for more than a year. Now I find myself visiting the divorcing section. My H doesn't drink, and there's no infidelity. My marriage is celibate, my H is emotionally unavailable. I believe the underlying reasons for his behavior are rooted in passive aggressive behavior, undiagnosed post traumatic stress (from Vietnam), and possible depression. <P>I love my H, but I've reached a point where my pain exceeds the amount of love I have for him. I've grown too accustomed to blaming him for my unhappiness. Intellectually I recognize that I am responsible for my own happiness. I believe much of my answer can be found in the principles which br posted in her AA-turned-infidelity list of what to do. I'm not sure my H is <I>capable</I> of full participation in the relationship, just as an alcoholic is unable to be a fully functioning spouse. It takes two people to make a marriage work. MB principles seem to address marriages where one spouse <I>chooses</I> to be dysfunctional. Alcoholism and mental disorders are not a matter of choice, but the people affected do have a choice to seek help or not. <P>My H refuses to seek help for his post traumatic stress. Quite frankly, I understand his choice. Given our financial condition, this only option is to seek help from the VA. That's a frightening thought right there. From my standpoint right now, the thought is less frightening than continuing my marriage as is. <P>I'm sorry to divert the topic, but I'm hoping someone on this thread knows of a resource that will fit my needs. Vietnam vets have a high rate of divorce. My H is close to becoming another statistic. I won't spend the rest of my life with a man who's on another planet emotionally. <P>

Worth the read!