<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LostHusband:<BR><B> I'm lost is he saying this to JUSTIFY the divorce. <P></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Havent a clue Bill. <P>He still says its inevitable.<P>He still says that he doesnt understand how I can be driven by pure hope of us.<P>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Learning as I go:<BR><B>What the HELL is he confused about?</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>He doesn't want to lose you, is afraid to keep you, doesn't know what to do, is pushing you away, pulling you closer... <P>See what I mean?<P>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Learning as I go:<BR><B>I'm sick of thinking about this!!<BR></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Been there, done that, got a t-shirt. I sure don't like my situation but at least I know where I'm going and I can make preparations.<P>I'm really leaving now.<P>You have a great weekend ((((DARA))))<P><BR>Bill<P>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Learning as I go:<BR><B> Havent a clue Bill. <P>He still says its inevitable.<P>He still says that he doesnt understand how I can be driven by pure hope of us.<P></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Are you sure your not married to my wife? Is his name really Lisa?<P>

Dara,<P>I am assuming that you are in fact moving to TX. If that is the case I do hope that this works well. I have deep concerns about how all of this is going to play out. Perhaps I can lay a few of them out for you to consider. Because if I am even close to right you will have to do somethings you have never done and need to start figuring out how to do.<P>1. I suspect that he will interpret your moving to TX as a reasonable thing to do, but also abandonment of him, yet again.<P>2. I suspect that your move will bring up all of the things he is running from now, the affair, the indifference, but most of all of his deep insecurity about you and the marriage.<P>3. I suspect that his Mother helping you, is going to cause him problems as well. You say she is a Christian woman and she doesn't believe in divorce, but she is taking your side over his. That will be two women in his life that have abandoned him. Further, she is counseling you to take everything with you.<P>4. If he does come down there to live, he is living with his Mother, not a bad idea, but it will be hard on him. I suspect that Mom wants to run his life as well and of course needs his help. Get the idea that he may think women only want him around when he is of use to them???<P>5. He has failed to get into nursing school. He cannot get unemployment and you are leaving. Can you say failure??? That is what he is going to feel like. When people get into that mode, they tend to get deeply depressed and do some really dumb things.<P>I could go on, but I think you get the point. Now here is the challenge. To date you haven't done a very good job of making him feel loved. Mostly he has felt used and controlled. When you look at those points I have listed above, and you think about how he has felt in the past, how are YOU going to overcome them???<P>This is hugh, because he isn't going to be able to make it on his own, that was what all of the D talk was about. Somehow, you are going to have to do something or things to counter act what you are doing (which seems to be right) and how he will react given all that has gone on before.<P>I would strongly suggest that you contact one of the Harley's or a counselor that can help you develop a plan. I fear that your moving will end up in one of two situation: He leaves because he feels all has failed, or he returns to you a whipped pup. I don't think you want either outcome.<P>I realize this is a lot to lay on your young shoulders, but there is a lot of history here and a lot to overcome. He has been badly damaged, and your moving will damage him more whether he comes with you or not. Further, it would seem that he has no family support at all. Does his Mother know about the affair and other things?? Why do I ask? Because she is conspiring against him as well. You both can say it is in his best interest to do as you wish, but he doesn't have much say in it does he?<P>Now I hope you realize why I said that all of this will challenge you to do something you have never done before. It is a tall order, to overcome all of this, and yet somehow you are going to have to love him and be steadfast in your marriage like you never have before to get through it. It will be really hard.<P>Sorry, I couldn't offer you any better advice or better options.<P>God Bless,<P>JL<P>

Wow, JL,<P>I really kinda thought it wouldnt be too hard!! My plan was just to give him the room he asks for, but remain open to ANY efforts he puts forth. I suppose that is assuming that he knows I truely love him.<P>I worry too about him feeling like a failure. Me leaving is the best option for me and the kids. And by me leaving, it closes doors for him here. But! This is a result of him wanting a D. I almost feel that it is selfish of him to ask me to stay, under the pretense of worrying about the kids schooling in SA. <P>I am reluctant at best to develop a "plan." <P>My goal, is to carve out a life of my own down there, to find some inner happiness not dependant on him, and to love him. I thought that I have shown him my love pretty thoroughly these past few months, and it would be assumed by him that it is sincere. Kinda like ok, I have shown you how much I want this marraige, but now I need to create some independence for myself. To allow him the space he needs, and if he decides he wants 'us', it will be of his own free will, not settling or giving in. Yes I do see that he feels out of control, of his own life. <P>Will he not regain that sense of control, by having his space? I dont know.<P>Isnt just being there, whenever he wants to talk visit etc enough? Being receptive to whatever advances he makes? Showing love to him whenever I can?<P>Or does this really necessitate a plan?<P>Is it really going to be that tough?

Dara,<P>It doesn't have to be THAT tough, but you must understand 6 months of being loving doesn't cover up years of other behavior. He wanted to divorce you because of all of the damage, he isn't joking. He is telling you he is terribly damaged by the past.<P>This, in my opinion, requires some proactive behavior on your part and it will need to be consistent for not a few months but years. <P>You stated what I feared. You figured if you give him space and set up your own life that somehow his life will come back, but it won't I am afraid Dara. There is a lot of pain here, and quite frankly I think some other issues are involved you are aware of yours from childhood, but I don't think you realize his. He has some. <P>One of the things about Marriagebuilders that is often over looked is that it does take effort to rebuild. If you are the one that wants the marriage then you must do the WORK.<BR>If you say "fine whatever", I'll get along with my life, you will have driven him away as assuredly as if you had another affair. <P>He is behaving in this strange manner, because he doesn't know how to heal, he doesn't know if he is being played for a sucker by going back to the marriage, he doesn't know that you love him Dara. You can tell, just by what he does. He wants that love, but he is so uncertain. Yes, he keeps throwing the D word around, but have you noticed he hasn't done it.<P>Part of him wants to run from the pain and the depression and part of him wants to stay, but he is afraid you will go back to the "take it or leave it" attitude. While I understand your motivations and really agree with them, he sees more of the "take it or leave it" attitude.<P>You really need to have a heart to heart with him. Tell him what you want, what you feel, how you are learning and changing. Tell him YOU want another chance with him, not that you are giving HIM another chance. <P>Dara, positive, positive, positive. He needs to feel you are positive that you love him and want a better marriage with him. And you are positive it can be done.<P>Plan Dara, how will you overcome those points I listed? Try it out here with the people here and see what they say. Get some ideas and the plan. Good marriages don't happen by accident Dara, they are planned and they are worked on.<P>At this point you need to plan to save this marriage, even if you do go back to SA.<P>Must go, will talk next week.<P>God Bless,<P>JL

Dara,<P>JL is so right on target that it's scary!<P>Please, please listen to him. He is saying exactly what I've been trying to say all along.<P>Your H reminds me of my ex, very much. I take that back, not "very" much... but in the way he is so afraid to trust you again. And of course, how they both had an affair after we did (although in my ex's case, he had a history of doing that, which your H does not). Still, I always kind of see my ex standing there, with a sad look in his eyes, when I think of your H, and it breaks my heart for him.<P>Listen to JL, Dara. He is so, so wise and for some reason (damned if I know how he got it, but I think it has something to do with age ) he has tons of it!<BR><p>[This message has been edited by Nyneve (edited May 18, 2001).]

I concur with JL and Nyneve... please think this through... it doesn't matter what decisions or plans you've already made. Please put everything before God and pray... pray for wisdom and discernment. Like JL said, it takes a while to "prove" that you've made sustainable changes. I'm right there... My H doesn't believe that I can change... Steve Harley says the walls are pretty high for him but if I want a chance at all that I'll have to demonstrate change and chip chip chip away at the walls. He's re-framed our whole relationship into thinking that he never loved me - which I don't believe...<P>BUT, what I'm saying is that though you've made plans and it all sounds fine, would you be willing to be WILLING to look at another alternative that might save your marriage? Allow yourself to be LED by HIM (God) and by your H on this a bit. I can sense that you like to make the plans and decisions but this *pattern* may have to change too...<P>Here's to a long, reflective and quiet weekend as you contemplate... cheers!<BR><P>------------------<BR>We cannot do everything at once... but we can do something at once

Hi Dara:<P>I'm sorry I didn't respond to you until now...it seemed everytime I clicked on your thread, something would happen to distract me and I never got to sit down and really READ what you had to say!! Now it's Saturday morning, I've got my coffee, H has the kids (even baby is snoozing next to him!), and here I am! <P>A couple of thoughts. On the counseling, if he is willing to do counseling, just not with a priest or minister, you can probably call places like Catholic Charities, and get counseling through organizations that provide free/low cost counseling. If he only wants to do it regarding the kids...there are many free parenting classes available...you just have to look!! <P>I took a 14 week class last year with my kids offered by a local county organization...my kids loved it and even lately asked to go back (My oldest said, Mom, I think we need CHAMPS again! ) My H and I are currently taking a 5 week class right now, again, for free, offered at my son's school, through the local Catholic Charities organization.<P>It just takes persistance, and making a lot of phone calls. You'll be surprised what is available!<P>I wouldn't try to force your H into any kind of counseling he doesn't like. Make it a joint decision. When my H came to me last Dec and wanted to reconcile and said he'd do counseling (which he hates) I gave him several different plans to choose from. That way it was "our" decision, not just mine.<P>As for your thread subject, Plan A <B>is</B> about letting go. I realize that you have many real reasons for needing/wanting to move to TX, BUT, your move is not about letting go, its about running away. You can let go of someone while living with him/her on a daily basis. It means only trying to control what is yours to control, which is you. And showing your spouse the respect he deserves as another equal human being by "allowing" him to freely make his own choices and live his life without fear of control or manipulation by you.<P>You sound like you are in a much better place mentally than you were a few weeks ago. You are making progress Dara!! <P>I agree with JL that your H is in a really bad place right now, surrounded by failure and abandonment. I don't know what to tell you about the MIL situation....I am in a similiar relationship with my MIL, and I can tell you that it definitely causes alot of resentment in my H.<P>It sounds to me like there are alot of details that you are trying to control about the living situation down in Texas.<P>Perhaps you should ask HIM what he wants to do? Maybe...just maybe....you should ask him to live with you. I don't blame him for not wanting to live with his mother. I think it would put her in the middle of your relationship, and thats the last thing you need. <P>I think the arrangements you have set up are forcing him to follow you, and forcing him to still feel abandoned and shoved aside. Some of it obviously can't be helped, its just facts. But still....he IS your H and you do want to still be married...right? <P>He sounds confused, and sounds like he is a bit resentful of still being powerless and manipulated. I realize there are things going on that aren't really in your power to change, but honestly, I agree that this move is going to hurt him alot, in the way that it is working out.<P>Do some thinking Dara...is there another way to accomplish the same results? <BR><P>------------------<BR><I>Pain is a given, misery is optional.</I>

Hello all,<P>Thank you all for takiing the time to respond. I am going to attempt, once again to respond as well. Last time I lost it, by typing in the wrong password!!!<P>JL,<P>First and foremost, without even reviewing your advice, one issue stands out to me. You said me going on with life is what you feared most. Probably read into it meaning indifference. ? Anyways, no, dont worry. I love this man infinitely, and dont not want to be without him. It wont be easier for me to start a new life w/o him in SA. I will not give up on this marraige!! Or him. Or myself. I will continue to post here when I get there, and continue to seek out the wisdom I recieve here. What I meant was that I do need to carve out some sense of independence for myself. It does not mean withdrawl. For too many years I have been discontent and living a disjointed life. H tried very hard to make me happy. Nothing worked. Needs to come from me, and I realize this now. <P>I dont want him to return a 'whipped pup'. This is why I think that living apart would be the best arrangement, to allow him the freedom to re-engage this marraige w/o the 'pressure' of merely responding to my love. I will cont to show him love every chance I get. I will be seeing him on an everyday basis I am sure. I dont know if it would be a good idea for him to stay with me. I am afraid to ask him also. Ultimately it would be nice to foster some sense of control in his life. Because as you said, he surely feels that he has none. And this talk of D, earlier this year, you made an astute observation that it came from somewhere. I realize he is not speaking of it now, just occasionally says that it wiil happen. But I still hold on to that hope, and claim this marraige. That is something he cannot understand. How I am driven by hope.<P>As far as his mom is concerned, she says to take everything to give him no reason to stay here. This was before he said he would come. She is not a confrontational person, like her son, and has never reamed him over this. But, he knows her views. <P>I agree with your statement of being steadfast in this marraige. He was always the rock in our relationship. Now its my turn. You know, when I talked to him this weekend, I told him that his actions will not change how I feel about him. That yes he has hurt me tremendously over the past few months, but the love I have for him is stronger than that pain. His reply? That I sound alot like him a few years ago. I considered it a compliment. Because if I can show him love the way he did for me, if only a fraction of it...well I dont know. Its a wonderful feeling though. <P>He still believes that I am doing this to manipulate him. I talked to him about that this weekend, and told him that in view of his desire to end this marraige, I need to do what is best for me and the kids. So does he I said. I mentioned that this is MY best soloution, and it is not an unreasonable one to me. I know it affects him. I asked him to make a decision to do whats best for him, irregardless of my choices. He is not forced to go, he can apply for another program here, get a part time job and an apartment. He is a capable man. I asked him to consider what is best for him. I know its a fine line I am walking here, and I am being my utmost to preserve his sense of control and dignity.

Sheryl, <P>Thanks for being here. Yep Yep Yep. It mostly boils down to a trust issue. He loves me , thats a given I see now. But is unable at this point to trust me again with his heart. This will take time. I am being careful to show my love to him w/o pressure demands or manipulation. He has told me that it amazes him, because he see's me in the same place he was a few years ago. The difference, I said to him, was that I will not give up! Yeah things are hard, and there are alot of issues between us, but I will not fade away. I love you and will always want to show you.<BR>I refuse to see us as hopeless. I refuse to doubt that God can heal us. <P>OvrC's,<P>I prayed and prayed and fasted and prayed on my decision to move. Never felt like I heard a direct answer. But! Suddenly all doors began to open. A home of my own to live there, w/o cost, movers will take our stuff there w/o cost, my job has a location there so I can merely transfer. I dont feel as hopeless about this because I have faith that He will heal my marraige. I claim it to be true. And, there is already such a differrence in him.<P>BR!!!!<P>I am so glad to hear from you!! I figured you gave up on me!!!<P>Yes, you have a great point about him still feeling controled by this situation. Is there another way? <P>You know, I have done alot of thinking about this this weekend. And why I dont want him to live with me. I have come to realize that for me, it is the best way to gage him wanting to reconcile, by wanting to live with me. I have rationalized that he needs time away from me, which IS true, but along with it comes a sense of him feeling controlled. He had asked me several times to stay here, and I refused, as I dont want to live here alone in this state with no family after he leaves, and that I dont want to live in 'our home' w/o him. That I couldnt continue to live with him under the pretense of being just friends, I want to love him and be his wife.<P>If I asked him to live with me in SA, would that not put me in the same place? Thoughts?<P>As far as counseling goes, I will pursue it in SA. There is something deep in his heart that is troubling him, he has told me, but will not say what it is. He asked yesterday if I could go to counseling with him. Not for "us" though. He said it is hard for him to tell me w/o feeling pressured. I have no clue what it is. I bet JL could hazard an accurate guess. What he did tell me I just listened. Asked for him to keep going but he said thats enough for now. <P>It is hard for him to trust me with his innermost thoughts and feelings. I feel confident that with time, and my being trustworthy, this will resolve.<P>Dara

Would he move to SA at the same time as you? Or will there be some separation period?

No I didn't give up - I just try to keep my mouth zipped when I don't have anything of value to say. At least I attempt to anyway <P>If I don't respond, its either because my own life is out of control, or because I don't know. Mostly its probably because I don't know. I only know a few things <P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><BR>You know, I have done alot of thinking about this this weekend. And why I dont want him to live with me. I have come to realize that for me, it is the best way to gage him wanting to reconcile, by wanting to live with me. I have rationalized that he needs time away from me, which IS true, but along with it comes a sense of him feeling controlled.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>But isn't that exactly what you are doing to him? You have decided that the best way to FORCE him into reconciling is to not let him live with you. Why don't you ask him what HE wants to do and what HE wants and needs? Don't decide for him!<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><BR>He had asked me several times to stay here, and I refused, as I dont want to live here alone in this state with no family after he leaves, and that I dont want to live in 'our home' w/o him. That I couldnt continue to live with him under the pretense of being just friends, I want to love him and be his wife.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>This is understandable. You have the right to go or stay, just as he does. You have decided that it is best for YOU to move. You can do that. <P>But do you see, that the rest of the conditions and rules that you are setting out are once again, trying to manipulate him?<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>If I asked him to live with me in SA, would that not put me in the same place? Thoughts?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Why would it? You said you needed to move because you needed support and a home. You'll have these things now. <P>This is why I am still suspicious of your motives regarding the move. Its clearly about trying to force your H into a certain response, rather than about taking care of your needs. By moving, you will have your needs taken care of. If he wants to live with you, what is the problem?<P>You, Dara, need to learn how to let go of this man. And moving cross country is not the way to do it. Forcing him to live elsewhere is not the way to do it either. Let him go by letting him decide what he wants and needs and then respectfully and lovingly get out of his way!<P>Ask him what HE would like to do. Would he like to live with you? If he says yes, what's the problem? The man LOVES you Dara - why are you yanking his strings? Let him love you.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>As far as counseling goes, I will pursue it in SA. There is something deep in his heart that is troubling him, he has told me, but will not say what it is. He asked yesterday if I could go to counseling with him. Not for "us" though. He said it is hard for him to tell me w/o feeling pressured. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Well, my first thought is that whatever it is, personal issues generally have to be dealt with before the marriage can be worked on. He's obviously scared to open up to you, but willing to try. He wants the counselor there as a third party for support. I would strongly encourage you to do this with him. And do just what you have been doing, listen. Be safe for him.<P>(((hugs))) hang in there!!<P>--BR<P><BR><P>------------------<BR><I>Pain is a given, misery is optional.</I>

<B>BR</B>,<P>You are sooooooo smart woman!!!<P>Where's <B>JL</B>?<P><B>Dara</B>,<P>Just hugs hon... no words today... tough one.<P>(((((Dara))))) <P>------------------<BR>~Sheryl<P>And we know. We who have seen. ~Pellegrino

BR,<P>I planned on moving w/o him going along. He has only recently stated that he wants to go. I am not forcing him to. Nor was that my intent when I decided to go.....<P>No I am really not trying to yank his strings. I am attempting to evaluate everything I say to him before it is said, as I dont want to come across the wrong way. <P>I have realized that by me not wanting him to live with me I am trying to control "how" he comes back to me. But, OTOH, it seems that him living with me may end up the same secnario as it would here. I want to love him and be his wife, rebuild trust and respect, but it means something different to him at this point...(Living with me)<P>He never opens up to me....He told me yesterday that he has been keeping a journal, but throw it all away for fear of me reading it. I said I would love to hear his heart...but I understand. I told him I have been keeping a journal too, and then went to church and left it out on the counter inviting him to read it. When I came home he said nothing. Yes he read it, but said he already knew all that stuff I wrote. DAMM!!! I took a risk, baring my rawest emotions to him and it wasnt even worth a conversation to him. Oh well, that was due to my expectation that it would mean something to him. And I am learning about those stinking expectations. <P>Still, throughtout all this, I would be willing to ask him to live with me, but, I know the enevitable but, I DO need and I think, deserve, to not want to live with a man I love who just wants to live with me out of convience. Am I not right on that?<P>Or do I lose all sense of standards due to this?

Bill,<P>He will be moving at the same time as me. Even before he said he would go, he offered to drive me and the little ones down there. <P>Hell, I hated the drive up here. Not looking forward to driving back. Oh well!!

Maybe I’m looking at things all wrong but I’d like to offer my opinion. Being fairly new to MB I do realize that some of this may go against the MB principles and fall more into the “Tough Love” category. I don’t have anything against the MB principles (I’m still using a Plan ‘A’) as I’m going through divorce proceedings. Thanks to our “court” system, my wife has the opportunity to not have to live in reality for another 2 months, until our final hearing. <P>First off, I am for the separation. I believe that Richard needs his “space” to make his decisions. Furthermore, I think that you need your “space” to evaluate your feelings. I think that you and Richard should sit down and layout the separation. Possibly say that you plan on separating for two months and after that it can be re-evaluated by both of you.<P>IMO the only thing that you are forcing on Richard is that he must move to SA. Why, because that’s where his children will be. What happens after that is his decision. If I remember correctly, you have made some calls to schools down there and it won’t be a problem for him to get in. So he can choose to go to school in SA. Will he HAVE to live with his mom? NO! Again, that’s a choice he can make. There are a lot of companies that aggressively seek x-military people. I came out of the military with no experience or education and was hired by a company for my leadership abilities. Through that job I received my training that has gotten me to the point I am now. Sure Nursing may be what he wants to do but it’s still a choice. He can choose to work and get a place of his own. <P>I guess from my vantage point it’s time for you both to step back and evaluate where you are and where you really want to go in life. You both must be prepared for the consequences. You have said that you don’t want to just live with him you want to be his wife. Even after some separation time, living with you may be all that he can offer. So what will you do? Or are you really ready to be his wife? <P>Like most relationships there has been a lot of pain caused by both sides. These feelings need some professional help and some time to heal. I just don’t see how it can be accomplished while you two are together. I say make some separation plans, move to SA, get into counseling, start healing, and then re-evaluate your situation.<P>There has been some great advise offered on this thread and the bottom line is that you know Richard better than anyone else. You need to figure out truly what you want and what you’ll settle for. You know how he’ll react to the different courses of action. <P>That’s my $.02<P>Bill<BR><P>------------------<BR>-There are none so blind as those who refuse to see!-

Hi Dara,<P>You don't have an easy situation and I certainly don't have all the answers, or even some of them. I can just give you my opinion - which is just that: <B>my</B> opinion. So take it or leave it, you won't offend me either way <P>The bottom line is that I am against what I see is your deciding for your husband what he needs. <P>I'm going to quote this again - with my own emphasis:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I have come to realize that for <B>me</B>, it is the best way <B>to gage(have?) him wanting to reconcile, by wanting to live with me</B>. <I><B>I</B> have rationalized that he needs time away from me,</I>[/b] which IS true, but along with it comes a sense of him feeling controlled.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Your decisions and your actions are based on a desired outcome that you want to force on your husband. Of course he feels controlled. You are trying to control him. <P>Why not ASK HIM what he needs and wants?<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I have realized that by me not wanting him to live with me I am trying to control "how" he comes back to me.<BR><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>See...there's a fine line here. You can decide what you want in a marriage and a husband. And you can decide if you want him or not. But what you are trying to do is force him to be the man you want on your terms.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>But, OTOH, it seems that him living with me may end up the same secnario as it would here. I want to love him and be his wife, rebuild trust and respect, but it means something different to him at this point...(Living with me).<BR><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Dara, it seems to me that you are hung up on a couple of critical issues. You ARE his wife. You CAN love him. Spouses live together. Thats what they do. <P>Yes, you are afraid to take a risk. But Dara, do you want to be right or do you want to be married?????<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><BR>He never opens up to me....<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>HUH? He asked you to go to counseling because he wanted to share something intensely private and personal. That's not opening up??? Dara, he's afraid of you, but he's TRYING. Just because he doesn't do it on YOUR terms doesn't mean that he isn't doing so.<P>You are right...your expectations are shooting you in the foot. <P>You need to stop holding him up to your standards of how things should be.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><BR>He told me yesterday that he has been keeping a journal, but throw it all away for fear of me reading it. I said I would love to hear his heart...but I understand. <BR><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>He is telling you he is afraid. That's not opening up??? A man who does not care about you and is uninterested in marriage with you would not be talking to you about this stuff.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I told him I have been keeping a journal too, and then went to church and left it out on the counter inviting him to read it. When I came home he said nothing. Yes he read it, but said he already knew all that stuff I wrote. DAMM!!! I took a risk, baring my rawest emotions to him and it wasnt even worth a conversation to him. Oh well, that was due to my expectation that it would mean something to him.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Uh, Dara. YOUR expectation says that if he cares about something that he will rush to discuss and converse with you about it. Because he didn't, YOU decided that it meant he didn't care. <P>He isn't ever going to act according to your rules. You have got to accept that he is who he is. <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><BR>And I am learning about those stinking expectations.<BR><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I'll have to look up some Al-Anon literature on expectations JUST for you!! <P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><BR>Still, throughtout all this, I would be willing to ask him to live with me, but, I know the enevitable but, I DO need and I think, deserve, to not want to live with a man I love who just wants to live with me out of convience. Am I not right on that?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Do you want to be right...or do you want to be married?<P>We have already told you until we are all blue in the face that this is not a man who is indifferent to you.<P>We all deserve lots of stuff. You are insisting that he come back to you on your terms. You want to be in control or you want nothing at all.<P>You are focusing on his violations of your expectations and not looking at his actions. You are not allowing this man to love you - you are dictating to him the "rules".<P>I'm not going to tell you what you SHOULD do. I'm just pointing out that your motivations aren't really on track, and that your decisions may be a bit skewed. And that perhaps you need to think outside the box a bit.<P>He's feeling controlled because you are still trying to control him.<P>((((hugs)))) BR<P><P>------------------<BR><I>Pain is a given, misery is optional.</I>

Dara,<P>I am not going to add anything just now. BR and others have been saying what I would tell you. Please think about this. You do need a plan, and if you two separate, you need as has been suggested a plan for that as well. One that both of you agree to.<P>God Bless,<P>JL