BR,<P>Thank you. More than you will ever know...I take your words to heart. As well as others. We all have our own styles of advice, but yours is truely straight forward in a way that cuts straight throght my BS and gets to the heart of it. Thank you.<P>There is soo way much going on in my life that I feel I cannot handle. Dam, just saying this brings tears....<P>I have not spoken to my mom on a heart to heart basis in several months.. She is an alcoholic, and has betrayed my trust in her. I confided in her at my darkest moments, before I found this site, and she told everyone in my family how depressed I am, suicidal, blah blah blah. My kids didnt even know about dad's decision before relatives were gossiping. (Oh its about time he left her, that bi***.)<P>I slowly began to speak to her again a couple of months ago. She is ALWAYS drunk when I talk to her. Even early am. So I tell her that I moving home to SA, where she is. She throws a fit. I thought everything was fine!! She thought that because that is what I would tell her when she would constantly call me, drunk, prying into my life. Couldnt understand how she betrayed my trust. When I would tell her I dont want to talk to her about it, I got the "OH, well go ahead,write me out of your life" drama.<P>I even went on to tell her that I am going because I WANT to not due to Ricks decision..She has become angry with him, and I have tried hard to diffuse that. So I just kinda quit trying to converse with her at all. She would only tell me how wrong I was for leaving such a beautifull envirement here for the kids.<P>Shes a wonderful mom and grandma when she is sober. But she see's me ruining the kids life by going to SA. And she is throughly pissed at Rick for all this. She is deluded into thinking that alls ok here.<P>All that I can handle.<P>My dad on the other hand..wow.<P>Hes a dope addict and very self centered. In fact, last year, after beginning a full time job, and being a mom, and everything else, got sick of his calls.NEVER asked about the kids. Or me. On and on about his cars, antiques, how hes on sick leave again by shamming a back injury etc etc etc. Going on for years.I wrote hiim a long letter last year, saying that I wanted no further contact with him, and explAINED why. How its too much for me, working full time, to spend every weekend night on the phone with him about his girlfriends, legal troubles etc. How I feel that he really doesnt care. Doesnt even send cards for Christmas.<P>Anyways, Back in Jan, I felt convisted in my heart to forgive him. I called and asked for his forgiveness. All was well. Till he had his one weekend a month, this past weekend, where he could get high. (Must pass drug tests), and has figured he can smoke only one weekend a month.<P>So he calls RIck four times Sat while Im at work. On and on about how someone broke into his house, stole 1000$, smashed some antiques and left. Now he says he cant pay for transport of his new Rolls from CA.<P>As soon as I walk in the door Sat, he calls. He is massively stoned, slurred speech and all. The reason he is calling? To ask me if I have any pistures of a solid antique marble clock he gave a few years ago. How he needs a pic to claim it as stolen. (he has defrauded insurance co's before). After 45 min of this, and getting up that day at 4 am, never having time to eat luch, kids at my feet, I began to cut off his repetitive rambling. I lied, said my camera puts dates on pics, but all I could do was look for an old pic that shows it in the backround.<P>I dont feel comfortable being part of his illegal activities!! Sun am, at 7am he is calling already. Dad, I just eoke up. He is stoned again. Rambling again. Going to church, cant talk. As soon as I walk in the door, he's on the phone again!!!<P>This time I tell him I dont feel comfortable doing this, taking part in his scaming, because it is illegal. That its just way too much for me to deal with at this time, him calling me up stoned, asking me to conspire with him. Then he says just send me the fu88in **** back. WHOA!!!<P>Calls me today, before work, with just a "did you send MY clock back yet?"<P>No dad I didnt, lay off. Im going to work, cant talk now, on my way out the door, goodby, and hung up.<P>Bear with here. Heres the problem..He calls back and leaves a message. Starts with calling me every name in the book. How DARE I judge him? His business is his business, I and I have no right judging him.<P>Did he not try to include me? Make it my business?<P>Dara, you have no fu**in right to enter into my business, and is you wanna sit there an judge me, than you will pay the price.<P>Whats wrong with me? <P>Why do the people I love most in this world do this?<P>And he calls back, while Im at work and talks to Rick. I come home, ask if he called and Rick said yes but he just rambleda bunch. Couldnt remeber what all was said. Rick said he just listened. <P>I asked why he didnt defend me? Why just listen? <P>No answer. Am I being unrealistic to think that Rick would say look at what you did to her? And maybe refuse to hear his BS?<P>I looked through the house, to find everything he has given me, to send it all back. Came up with the clock, a cheap used watch, and my wedding ring. I left them on the counter. When I came home I saw that Rick took off his as well and put it by the stuff as well. It came from him too.<P>I know this is marraige builders. These are family problems. Not marraigeproblems. <P>Br I speak mostly to you, as you seem to know so much about Al Anon. And maybe how to deal with loved ones who are addicted. <P>I have always thought that if you have problems with everyone, than maybe the problem isnt with them its you. <P>So Ive lost my marraige, my mom and my dad. Is it me?? <BR>With my marraige I can take all the blame. <P>But this, I cant deal with. I dont know what to do. I feel so lost and dejected.

(((((((((((((((((Dara))))))))))))))))))<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I know this is marraige builders. These are family problems. Not marraige problems. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Marriage is about family. <P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I have always thought that if you have problems with everyone, than maybe the problem isnt with them its you. <P>So Ive lost my marraige, my mom and my dad. Is it me?? <BR>With my marraige I can take all the blame. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>You didn't CAUSE the addictions. You can't CONTROL the addictions, and you can't CURE them either. Just as my husband is incapable of loving me...your parents are incapable of loving you. They aren't withholding love...they have none to give you. <P>It isn't about you.<P>You also can't take all the blame in your marriage. I talk to you about your part in your marriage Dara, because talking about what HE is supposed to do does no one any good unless he is here asking us for advice. Your husband has alot of responsiblity for the condition of your marriage also. He's no saint and he is certainly not a victim either. <P>Aaaah, but if we can make it all about ourselves, then we might be able to control it and fix it....<P>It's a rather ironic, unhealthy way of thinking. <P>Dara, I want you to get up from your computer, go to your mirror, look yourself in the eyes and repeat: "I love you." Do that every day until you start to believe it.<P>I'm not surprised to hear about your family issues, and I'm glad you told us. Because NOW you can get help for you.<P>I have often wondered if you came from a family with addictions because of your difficulties with control. Every one of us in the rooms of Al-Anon has problems with it. We grow up with so much fear underlying everything. And with the fear comes a driving need to control everything and everyone around us to keep those fears at bay.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>But this, I cant deal with. I dont know what to do. I feel so lost and dejected<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>As an adult child of an alcoholic...you qualify for Al-Anon!! Get yourself to a meeting and get yourself lots of hugs while you are there! It's free and I found Al-Anon did more for me than any therapist did.<P>I wish you didn't have to move so soon. You need some more time I think, to work on your own issues. But not to worry. Just find some meetings in your area, and start attending - go to as many as you can, and try out different ones until you find one that you are comfortable with. <P>You can also join Steps2Recovery - <A HREF="http://www.steps2recovery.org/" TARGET=_blank>http://www.steps2recovery.org/</A> - it's an online Al-Anon group with meetings via email.<P>I still don't think you should separate from your husband, but I can definitely see that you both need time to work on your own issues. If your H is seeing a counselor for his stuff, that's fantastic. You need to focus on you, and you can do that by attending Al-Anon and working the 12-steps with a sponsor. You will learn to be happy and whole again Dara. <P>Marriage Builders is a great place to work on your marriage. But you do have to have your own stuff sorted out before you can participate in a relationship. So put the focus on you for awhile, and let your relationship with your husband just be. <P>Did you read my response to Heartsore? My response was obviously tailored to her regarding her marriage, but there is plenty in that response that applies to you too.<P>"Codependent No More" might be a fantastic place for you to start reading. Because codependent is what you are! My Al-Anon sponsor's mother was/is a raging alcoholic. From the many hours I have spent talking to her, I can completely understand how deeply your mother's alcoholism has affected you. <P>((((((((((((Dara))))))))))))))<P>------------------<BR><I>Pain is a given, misery is optional.</I>

Al-anon was first mentioned to me when I was my eldest's age, elen. Never attended however.<P>I used to think, that it has not affected me too much. What kind of perdon allows so much misery to rule them? Up until the past year, I couldnt understand how something vcould affect us on a much deeper level.<P>Its all reached its ugly head now. Its not just my mom, its my dad as well. But with narcotics. My mom, has a heart of gold. But she is a vuctim as well. at the age of eight, came home to see her dads bags packed on the porch, and didnt see him again for 10 years. Sent to bed that day as soon as she came home from school. Never explained to, never comforted. Then went on to cook all dinners, and be a mom to her two little brothers. So I understand her panic at me moving. How it is very easy for her to think all is well in my current situation.<P>It has been easy for me to love and forgive her over and over again because of the purest love she shows my children, a love even I sometimes cant show. She has given and given to them over the years. Alot of over compensating. But so has Richards mom. To me, however, the difference between to two of them in their love for the children, and me is profound. One is sincere and healthy. She has eleven kids. The other is my mom, with only me.<P>As soon as I read, even that you replied to me, my eyes welled up. Why is the pain, of a shi**y childhood so real now? Why do I hate everything about me?<P>I've kept and controlled this man for years in what I thought was a safe place for me. Until this very moment, I never fathomed that these control issues had anthing to do with my upbringing.<P>How, please tell..Can I love myself. Because of who I am, the person I've been, has driven off a man with a beautiful heart. One that was 'safe' to begin with. <P>Its hard to face myself. Maybe if I can save my marraige, there is some value in me.<P>Why, do I base my self-worth on whether I am loved and cherished?<P>It seems an insurmountable mountain to overcome BR.<P>Dara

(((((Dara)))))) I wish I could give you a real hug! <P>I'm going to answer your post with quotes from an Al-Anon book called "From Survival to Recovery". It is specifically for children of alcoholics.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>I used to think, that it has not affected me too much. What kind of perdon allows so much misery to rule them? Up until the past year, I couldnt understand how something vcould affect us on a much deeper level.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Growing up with the chaos and unpredicitability created by alcoholism caused many of us to mask our confusion, anger and shame by trying to be perfect. To prove to ourselves and the world that there was nothing wrong with us or our families, we scrambled hard in school to get straight A's, or worked feverishly at home to keep everything neat and tidy. We became star atheletes, artists, corporation leaders, humanitarians, and outstanding citizens. Inside, however, we feel driven, terrified of failure, unable to relax or play, and lonely. Toward less responsible people who seem to make our effoorts at perfection harder, we often feel self-righteous and angry. Convinced that something terrible will happen if we lose control, we run ourselves ragged trying to take charge of everything and never know how much is enough. Until we begin to recover, many of us are trapped in a compulsive need to give more, love more, and do more.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>As soon as I read, even that you replied to me, my eyes welled up. Why is the pain, of a shi**y childhood so real now? Why do I hate everything about me?<P>Why, do I base my self-worth on whether I am loved and cherished?<BR></B><BR><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><BR>Growing up with adults who displayed extremes of emotion or no emotion at all left us afraid of our own feelings, confused and angry. Without any healthy demonstration of how to handle potent emotions, some of us acted them out in destructive ways. Relatives who are consumed with the disease of alcoholism put themselves and their need for alcohol first, ahead of the needs of everyone else in the family including their own children. We, the children, often craved attention to such a degree that any attention was better than none. Even negative behavior at least called attention to us and robbed the drinker of the spotlight for a moment. We were temporarily relieved of the nagging suspicion that we were not worthy of anyone's care or even notice. Attention for our negative behavior cost us a fearsome price in plummeting self-esteem and soaring guilt, but in our young minds, it seemed beter than facing the abandonment and horror of realizing that the adults we depended upon were actually absent or abusive.<P>Alcoholism is a cunning, powerful, baffling disease not only for the alcoholic, but for all the people who associate with the alcoholic. It is a progressive, multi-generational, physical, emotional, and spiritual disease with wide-ranging, often tragic effects. We who have had to cope with the problems created by an alcoholic have tired to force solutions only to find outselves defeated again and again. We became exhausted, angry, frustrated, and unreasonable without even knowing it.<P>Those of us who grew up in families affected by alcoholism were particularly vulnerable to its effects because the disease touched us early in our lives, in our impressionable formative years. As dependent children, we have no possiblity of escape and we naively believed that our families reflected the entire world--a world that seemed dangerous and unpredictable. We learned not to talk, not to trust, and not to feel. Family alcoholism also made us vulnerable to abusers outside our families when we sought love and solace anywhere we could find them.<P><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>How, please tell..Can I love myself.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Surviving a childhood marked by alcoholism left us with invisible wounds that would not heal, but in Al-Anon we found a Twelve Step program of spiritual help and human caring that has brought us the priceless gift of serenity and has shown us a path toward emotional maturity that was lacking in our families.<P><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>Its hard to face myself. Maybe if I can save my marraige, there is some value in me.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Oh Dara, whether or not your marriage survives, you are valueable. You are worthwhile and you are good enough.<P>You did not hurt your marriage by yourself. Your husband bears responsiblity also. Do NOT take all of the blame upon yourself. <P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>It seems an insurmountable mountain to overcome BR.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>That's why we do it one day at a time, even one moment at a time. Little by little. You do not have to do everything at once - and you don't have to do any of it alone.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Surrounded by other recovering people, we are learning how to heal our broken hearts and create healthy, productive, joyful lives. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>(((((((((hugs))))))))))<P>------------------<BR><I>Pain is a given, misery is optional.</I><p>[This message has been edited by BrambleRose (edited May 22, 2001).]

Dara,<P>You are listening to BR right??? I surely hope so. Now I would lke you do something else. Go to Alnon, but also seek some counseling. Talk to Richard, tell him what you are realizing. He knows what your parents are like, but he probably never realized the affect they have had on you. Heck, you haven't really until just now.<P>Is it possible that you have tried to control Richard, because you are so afraid of being left. Is it possible you are running to SA for the same reason?<P>Here is what I propose to you. Sit and talk with Richard, tell him why SA is so attractive to you, especially in light of the things you are beginning to see within you as a result of your upbringing. Ask him what he thinks. In the most objective light is SA where the two of you should be?<P>1. For his education and finishing it quickly.<P>2. For the children, education, atmosphere, family etc.<P>3. For his career hopes and aspirations.<P>4. For your career hopes and aspirations.<P>Next ask him in the best possible worlds where would he like to be? Where would you like to be? Now the big question WHY?<P>Next, Dara it is time for you to confess something to him. I think it is very important that you do this. You need to confess that you are growing up. In a few more years you will be a mature woman, not the child that ran around on him. You appreciate more about your past, your life, your children and mostly about him.<P>Dara, there is so much going on, but most of it revolves around YOUR decision to move to SA. I am not saying it is wrong, but I am saying you are still married and you two have children, the POJA needs to stay in place.<P>Now one final thing. Dara you are a nurse, you can find work anywhere. You can make decent money (I understand not great), so the military moving you back to SA is not a really good reason to move. Dara, <B>You can go broke saving money. </B> All those sales, deals, opportunities have costs and they can break you.<P>So talk with Richard, and please listen to what BR is telling you. It seems to me she has finally touched upon maybe the reason for what has happened and the reason for your fears.<P>Please think about all of this.<P>God Bless,<P>JL

oh Dara...where are you?<P>------------------<BR><I>Pain is a given, misery is optional.</I>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BrambleRose:<BR><B>oh Dara...where are you?<P></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Ended up called in to work a double yesterday after two hours sleep!!<P>Will respond moe after family leaves.<P>H wrote me a letter last night, filled with shockers.<P>More later,<P>Br, youve touched my heart.<P>

BR,<P>Dad is still calling me everyday. I dont want him in my life...Yet I regret cutting off my own father.<P>Do I have the right to not want to talk to him ever again?<P>He is calling here everyday.<P>I dont want him in my life. At least my mom when not drunk, is a loving grandmother. My dad only cares about himself.

Well, my dad just called again. I promptly hung up after telling him I had nothing to say to him.<P>He called back left a message that said He never was planning on defrauding the ins co. Yeah right, thats why he specifically asked me to send him a pic of it in order to get more money. <P>Here's what sucks..he not only threatened to sue me (?)<BR>But went on to say that "Your h is leaving you because your a F***in BI***, you wrote off your mom, and this is the second time in six months your writting me off. Youve got some serious problems Dara"<P>I have been pondering this myself... BUT of my parents are addicts, and have treated me poorly all my life. At this point, I have zero empathy for them. I am fed up, and going through hell myself. I dont have the mental reserves to continue with them, or comfort them. Now my dad is threatening to sue me? For what? In my entire adult life, since sixteen, I've only asked him for help once. About eight years ago, he lent me about 300$ buck. Called it a Christmas gift, not to worry about paying it back...Now he says he is going to sue me for everything I've taken from him..I have searched my house for everything he ahs given us...A clock, a used watch, and our wedding rings. Never has sent even gifts for the kids all these years. BTW, his mother is seriously mentally disturbed, OCD and schizophrenic. He is heading down the same path.<P>But, I am so paranoid about this. Why? As I have mentioned beofre, is there something wrong with me, that my parents do such things to me? My H is leaving me too. I feel like such a wreck right now. <P>Maybe its all me.<P>No, it cant be. But it still hurts like hell to hear my dad say that to me. I dont know if I should call him and tell him off completely, or just let it go. [censored]. He has always been so draining to me. And now he's using Rick too. Calling him "son" after he called him yesterday, after calling hiim every name in the book a few weeks ago <BR>to me.<P>Now I find out my Husband is in love with this OW last night.<P>The burden just gets heavier and heavier.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>But, I am so paranoid about this. Why? As I have mentioned beofre, is there something wrong with me, that my parents do such things to me? My H is leaving me too. I feel like such a wreck right now. <P>Maybe its all me.[/B]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Dara, <P>You are correct. IT IS NOT JUST YOU. I'd like to think that I know your situation pretty well and I can tell how good of a person you are. I totally wrote my father off about 6 years ago and now I'm going through a bitter divorce. Do you think it's just me? No it's not.<P>Keep your chin up dear, follow the advise you got in your other post and LISTEN to Richard today. Take it one step at a time. Pray before Richard gets home HE will help you through today.<P>Your in my prayers,<P>Love, Bill<P>------------------<BR>-There are none so blind as those who refuse to see!-

And so Lord, once again I lift Dara up to you...<P>Thank you for leading her to this site and for the MANY MANY MANY supporters she can lean upon in this dire time of need.<P>Lord, I ask your immense blessing upon her and her family... her husband and children. Lord, bless them and give them an opportunity even today to grow in their love for you by extending that Love to others. Lord, keep your hands upon them and help them NOT to do any harm or cause any pain...<P>Jesus, you are the Lord of her life... you are the Savior, I ask for your guidance and peace - the peace that transcends all understanding... help her to guard her heart and mind... help her to STAND in her pain and not run from it but source it out day by day...<P>This marriage Lord, she claims it. I pray Lord that you will honor her commitment and that ONLY you can be the oil that softens Rick's heart to reach out in trust... In your precious name... Amen<P><BR><I>Dara...all I can say after having re-read this entire post is this prayer for you. You have been through so much and the learning curve of your life is ON right now... May tomorrow be a brighter day in which you FEEL His presence and HIS guidance upon you and yours... Be sustained!{{{{{{{Dara}}}}}}}}</I><P>------------------<BR>We cannot do everything at once... but we can do something at once