TS, nice point deflection attempt!<P>it is not a friends of Sue gang, it is a "TS is being POMPOUS and IRRITATING AGAIN."<P>Do you really get it? <B> i doubt it. </B> You will be pleasant for a little while, and then your bitterness and pomposity will return. You just displayed the pattern again: you have expressed this sentiment of getting it before, but here you are back again.<P>Patterns, or lack of patterns, are very crucial to understanding the person, and having been here long enough, i see the pattern.<P>

And I see the pattern with you too, WIFFT. You defend Sue no matter what she does, and I don't blame you. Fact is, TOM, our values are fundamentally different and that is why we clash. I've never called you a name and I have never used your name or anyone elses here to poke fun or get a laugh at their expense. You guys sure have lots of excuses for your own behavior, but you expect me to take responsibility for mine, which I have. <P>I edited the rest for Bumper and cantletgo's sake.<P><BR><p>[This message has been edited by TheStudent (edited May 21, 2001).]

I am new here & am not aware of all the posts being discussed. But I think we need to get back to the point of this website & board. It is to SUPPORT each other. Not bicker.<P>ALL OF US are experiencing pain, hurt, anger, depression, fear, loss etc in one form or another. I wouldn't wish these feelings on an enemy. I think the angry/frustrated responses to each other on here is just surface emotions. If you want to debate the issue find something that makes the other side of the coin true in some sense also!! <P>The REAL reason for all these emotions is REALLY our failing relationsips with our spouses/boyfriend/girlfriend. Many of us have been trying a "Plan A" and trying to lessen conflicts. We've been trying to show our best face forward. <BR>We come on here to voice our true selves & ask for advice from those who've been there too. It doesn't mean we can accept it right away. Its just maybe something we havent thought of on our own. <P>So please do not express anger, hostility, defensiveness on here without recognizing the real reasons for the emotions involved. We are NO BETTER than our betraying abandoning hurtful spouses otherwise.

Time to put my two cents in. I've had my ups and downs with Student too. But that's OK, She responds with what is on her mind and that is something I invite when I post.<P>As a bit of a synergist, the diverse opinions, and occasional spats in this forum have an addicting quality for me. All those different viewpoints are gifts that help me to see the bigger picture, and every so often, someone comes up with something out of left field this does the trick for me, it helps to fit another piece of the puzzle in place. And sometimes it just helps me think outside the box I live in. Turns out there are a whole bunch of otherwise perfectly wonderful people in this world, they just don't happen to agree with my point of view. Oh well.<P>Student isn't a special case, she is unique, just like everyone else. Yes, she is given to contradiction, but there are times when she hits a home run too. I hope she sticks around for a while.<P>One thing I have learned, that is try to post my viewpoints in a way that it doesn't become personal. We've had that experience too, and when the attention is diverted from an idea to a person or personality (me), it just doesn't seem to work very well. Sometimes the message is more important than the messenger.<P>Prayers and stuff, <P>Bumper<P><BR>

The Student,<P>You sure are bitter towards people that date while going through a divorce. Why is that , just because it is your belief? I will not date anyone also until my divorce is final. But for you to pass judgement on others that do and to even keep score, you have some real issues you need to take care of. I look at other people dating before the divorce is final is just a way for them to cope with thte stress that they are going through, i guess this is your stress relief also. Does it really do anyone any good to try and force your opinions on anyone, hmmm.. you know we all have faults that have lead to our being here, could that be one of yours that lead you here? Kids do come first also but at what cost? Come on now evryone has there threshold and just sometimes you need to take care of yourself first and it might lead to better taking care of the children. Take this for what it is worth, I haven't gone back and read all of your post and do not care too, Tact is always something good to learn!! <BR>it maks things so much easier<P><BR>Take care<BR> and the only TEAM I AM on IS MINE and MY DAUGHTERS!!

TS,<P>you see, i am not defending Sue, nor Dana B, who has the same opinion as myself, but we have a common thought process here, and therefore we agree. So if someone has the same thought process and comes to the same answer, are we defending? i disagree with that conclusion, it reads more like a self serving statement, one designed to elicit sympathy for your actions, for your position. Well, there is no sympathy to be gained from writing with arrogance, thinly veiled by quoting others to persuade your point, whether your point is appropriate or not.<P>There are as many ways to live a life as there are people, some are better than others, but each chooses their own path, most make their own problems, and others are in the wrong place at the wrong time.<P>You remind me of a funny soccer refereeing story i heard last weekend from two refs, one a state, semi pro ref, and the other a local ref, who has alot of experience, but is very controlling, and likes to display it. In the middle of a girls U16 game, the refs looked over and two girls were going at it, complete with hair pulling and name calling.<BR>Neither ref knew quite what to do, but what do you think caused it? i don't know, but i suspect it was the subtle terratorial tendencies of women, and add the time of the month.<P>Why do i bring this up? your actions give the appearance of you being terratorial on the board with your thoughts, and when particular others on the board give differing views, you get terratorially defensive for some reason. Not sure what the reason is, but I would be interested in knowing what the reason is.<P>

I CAN'T BELIEVE WHAT A COWARD YOU ARE STU. HOW IN THE *%^@ DO YOU HAVE THE NERVE TO FIRST POST WHAT YOU RECENTLY POSTED, THEN REMOVE IT? IF YOU ARE ASHAMED OF YOUR WORDS, THEN THEY SHOULDN'T HAVE BEEN VOICED IN THE FIRST PLACE.<P><BR>But you did it <B>AGAIN</B> Stu, if only for a few brief moments, you pointed attention to those of us who have chosen not to live up to <B>YOUR</B> standards. <P>I'm rather impressed that you have been following our lives so closely that you are able to come up with the number of people we have all dated since our WS have left the picture.....and all this time I figured you had just left us, but now it becomes clear that you have just stayed behind the scenes, lurking as usual.<P>Well c'mon Stu baby, let it rip. Hit us where it hurts. Call us out as those who have decided to get on with their lives in the manner we best see fit for <B>OURSELVES</B>.<P>Those of who have chosen to date since the fall of our marriages have the right to do so and to discuss these experiences out in this forum. Dating is a normal and natural part of the entire divorce process. If you don't like that and you can't handle it, then stay out of the D/D topics which involve dating! It seems like a pretty simple concept to me. <p>[This message has been edited by Jayhawk 93 (edited May 21, 2001).]

Jayhawk,<P>I am not a coward. I posted. I read the very insightful posts of both Bumper and Cantletgo and decided to follow not only their advice but your's as well my friend. Yes, I decided to tone it down in the name of keeping the peace.<P>I replaced it with a very simple phrase to Tom. Our values are fundamentally different. You stay on your side of the street with your dating values, and I'll stay on my side of the street. I promise to stop calling your gang a bunch of users because you don't agree with me, and your pals can promise not to call me or others like me "bitter" or poke fun at people like me because I don't espouse your particular lifestyle. <P>Be careful what you define as "normal". You could also define a greater than 50% divorce rate as "normal" also, but it's hardly an ideal that anyone would logically aspire to. <P>One more thing...you might note that I expressly did not post a reply to Tom's thread, nor did I give him dating advice. I called Sue on the carpet for making what I considered a tasteless remark for selfish gain on her part...and an entire thread has spun off of it. <P>Tom,<BR>territorially defensive? You are a pot calling the kettle black my friend. Your name was not mentioned on this thread, yet you felt compelled to come over and defend your buddy Sue. I have not made any comment about your current situation at all, yet you decided to join the feeding frenzy too. Hmmm.<P>Indie,<BR>My opinions on dating before a divorce is final are well known, and I might add, supported by most major religions of the world. Hardly needs defending by me. Kids come first, period. That doesn't include parading some new man/woman in front of them before they've had a chance to recover from the divorce. The world does not revolve around you and your needs. I hope you are serious about putting your kid's needs first. They are the ones who are the most damaged by divorce, IMO. <P><p>[This message has been edited by TheStudent (edited May 21, 2001).]

Okay, okay, okay ENOUGH!<P>Do I have to referee this playground too? Frankly, I get enough of this kind of behavior when I deal with the jr. high students at my school. "Do you know what Billy called Sally yesterday after we were at the lockers?...."<P>Agree to disagree, shake hands, go to neutral corners, put duct tape over your mouths, sit on your hands...whatever it takes to avoid rising to the bait (and I am addressing all of you...no one in particular).<P>Jeez, I thought my ex was the king of pushing buttons...<P>1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10...practicing patience <P>Lisa<P>------------------<BR>I am woman...hear me roar...okay - meow...okay - purr? Hey, I'm working on it.

I have been trying to come up with something to say to all of this and was glad to read the posts of Cantletgo and Bumper.<P>I definitely have always been more in agreement with Sue's point of view but do value TS's input as well. And TS and I have had some differences of opinion as well. But, somehow we have managed to differ on opinions and keep the peace between us.<P>I think we all just need to be a little more diplomatic with our comments. I know that I am overly sensitive right now to negative feedback. I hate to hear it. But, I learn from it. Sometimes it hurts, sometimes I lash out in return, but I'm trying to overcome this. If we can figure out how to effectively communicate our differences here, we will be one step ahead of the game in our current or next relationship. This is what I am praying for now. <P>Just my thoughts on the subject. I hope this doesn't offend anyone. It is certainly not my intent. I value all my friendships here. <P>Jen<P><BR>

Half right Stu. Oh for 10 months. Not looking. If I meet someone and it clicks I won't discard the possibility of a realtionship because my wife hasn't legally divorced me yet, or because it hasn't been XX months.<P>But I'm not in love with her anymore. As a matter of fact, I wish she could file right now. She was most effective at killing every last bit of feeling I ever had for her.<P>But that's not the point, is it? Has anyone ever slammed you for deciding <B><I>not</B></I> to date? I think not. That's your personal choice. And it's commendable.<P>I personally made the decision not to date while I was still married to her. I don't feel married to her anymore, so perhaps my decision won't stand until that piece of paper declares me legally divorced. But that's <B>my</B> personal choice. Nothing gives me the right to sit in judgement of someone whose pesonal choices differ from mine.<P>Standing on your soapbox citing who's doing who in the zoo & how many times is simply vicious. <P>But I do agree that the last thing in the world I should be doing now is exposing my son to another woman. His mother is taking care of that type of behavior very nicely... To the point that he specifically asked me not to date while I was still married. And that I can do for him. But I can't condemn someone for moving on after they've been discarded by their spouse either. That's their choice. I have a hard enough time taking care of me. Everybody else is responsible for themselves <P>------------------<BR>nick<P>it's only time that heals the pain <BR>and makes the sun come out again<P><p>[This message has been edited by c00ker (edited May 21, 2001).]

bleah, just stop ok?<P>Haven't we all been hurt enough already without turning in on each other?<P>Every single person who responds back to the argument of who is making fun of who is fueling the fire.<P>Let it go - there's enough blood already.

Cooker,<P>Well yes, quite often I get slammed for not dating here and so have others who are not dating. <P>"Standing on your soapbox citing who's doing who in the zoo & how many times is simply vicious." <BR>that is why I edited it. I realized I could say what I wanted to say in one sentence. The obvious difference in the two "groups" points to one thing...our values are fundamentally different. If you want to have a society that values marriage vows, then you have to keep them not only when they are convenient. There are way too many people who claim fidelity out there, but who dated before their divorce was final or before they even filed. Sorry. Can't have it both ways. The "rules" are pretty clear in that respect. These aren't my rules. They are the rules these people supposedly agreed to when they got married. <P>Bramblerose,<BR>sorry, didn't see your post until I had finished. I edited out the rest of it for you. <p>[This message has been edited by TheStudent (edited May 21, 2001).]

Stu,<P>You can try and “sugarcoat” this all you want, but I still view your actions of deleting your original post as cowardly. I agree that it should have been toned down a bit and I will apologize to you for flat out calling you a coward rather than simply your actions. For that, I am sorry.<P>I do feel that you should have left your original words in place, then posted a follow-up retort after reading the words of Cantletgo and Bumper, but that’s just me.<P>I don’t have a problem with your decision to “not date” while you work through this process, but it is not your place to sit in judgement of those of us who do. I remained true to my vows for my own benefit. By my decision, I was not going to date prior to my divorce becoming final and I didn’t. Others have, but that was their choice as well. I may not agree with the decision to date while one is in the midst of a divorce, but that is not my place to call them out for it.<P>It’s not necessarily your opinions or your views that I disagree with Stu, it’s the manner in which you present them. I think it is possible to get your point across in an eloquent, non-confrontational way, you just haven’t mastered that skill yet. <P>I commend you for setting boundaries for yourself and sticking to them. Many people are not capable of such a thing and you appear to be doing that very well. Just remember that everyone is different and what works for you isn’t what will necessarily work for someone else. <P>Our words may not always agree, but that doesn’t mean either of us are wrong in our beliefs. That’s the beauty of this forum, to express ourselves and to seek help when we need some advice. Let’s not turn this place into in a close-minded, non-supportive venue. If we don’t agree with another’s point of view, fine, we can’t control that. We can, however, control the manner in which we respond to each other.<P>...and you are correct....you did not post on Tom's thread regarding dating, you were pulled in....point well taken.<BR><p>[This message has been edited by Jayhawk 93 (edited May 21, 2001).]

Jayhawk,<P>And I reiterate...<P><BR>I did not make any comment about Tom or his dating situation. I have not posted on any dating threads that involve this group of people for a very, very long time. I haven't posted to any of you people for several months. <P>You ask me to tone it down, then you gripe when I edit. Why? You need a little more chum in the water to keep the feeding frenzy going? I'm wise to this game, pal. Like I said to cooker, these are not "my" rules. If you want to talk the talk (about being faithful, etc, etc) you had better walk the walk. It is very simple. I'm glad you see the wisdom of it. After all, it is not about ruining your fun or anyone elses... <P>I just saw your edit. Thank you for noticing.<p>[This message has been edited by TheStudent (edited May 21, 2001).]

I started this thread, and I sincerely regret it now. I agree that it has deteriorated into an attack of character and beliefs, none of which was my original intent, nor was that spirit evident in my original post, despite what TS may choose to see.<P>My purpose was to speak my mind, disagree with a fellow MBer, and to make a simple, innocent analogy (that was horribly taken out of context) to help her and others understand the point I was trying to make: she cannot expect to express her views in an offensive and overly aggressive manner without having a a bit of a reputation. Period. I have just seen enough venom spewn thanks to my big mouth. There is NO NEED to be sarcastic, biting, or rude. Tone and word choice is everything. As is understanding author's intent and purpose. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to know that when one use s terms like "Oh please," "Sue's gang" or derogatory little tag-names like "buddy" or the like that there is an underlying spit in the face. I think that was everyone's main problem with TS in the first place: not what was said, but HOW. <P>With that said, I sincerely apologize to all for birthing this monster.

Stu,<P>I understand your reasoning for editing your message, but I still do not agree with it. You posted, people read your words and the damage was done. Editing those words does not take away from what you said. It’s like a little kid saying he’s sorry just to stay out of trouble. <P>When we argue in person, words invariably are going to slip out and things will be said that you wish you could take back. We all have a major advantage here with the written word because we can edit what we say or feel, BEFORE anyone else knows about it. I generally will compose my thoughts in Word or Notepad as a draft, then will compose myself, make my edits, then I will copy my words into the post. I try not to post any of my thoughts in the public domain that I do not stand behind or feel the need to recant later. If I post something offensive or in bad taste and am called on it, I will apologize for it, but I won’t delete it. <P>I called you a coward which was rude and it was wrong. I also apologized for doing such, but I chose to leave my post in place. Maybe your way is better? At the time those were my feelings. I was angry and I didn’t follow my own advice (bad Jayhawk). Now that I have had time to cool down and have read the words of many others, I see that I was wrong.<P>You made the following comment in your post, “If you want to talk the talk (about being faithful, etc, etc) you had better walk the walk.” Now I don’t know if that was directed toward me or not, but I have not been hypocritical in my actions regarding my faithfulness either during my marriage or my separation. I have walked the walk, and even if I hadn’t, I’m still only human. <P>I know of your story and I have a hard time accepting your criticism of others because of it. I commend you for where your life is at today, but your convictions have certainly changed over time. I’m not sure the reason for this change in your life, but before you go calling the kettle black, please remember your roots.<BR>

Jayhawk,<P>“If you want to talk the talk (about being faithful, etc, etc) you had better walk the walk.”<P>This was not directed at you personally. Perhaps I should have said "we", "they" or some other word besides "you". Again...you (they) walk on your (their) side of the dating street and I'll walk on mine...lest we descend into another debate, argument, or whatever else you want to call it. <P>My views on this board have been very consistent (see items #1-3) and I have followed them to the letter since I have been here...going on three years now. You don't know my story. You haven't been here long enough.<P>gsd,<BR>There are plenty of cute little words and phrases to go around. Yukking it up at my expense was uncalled for. You cannot expect to do that without getting a response from me. Except, you won't see me waiting frigging 3-6 months to do it and sneaking it into the post of my friend where I can expect a "safe" crowd to jump to my defense. Nope. I'll do it right here, right out in the open for you and anyone else to see.<P>[This message has been edited by TheStudent (edited May 21, 2001).]<p>[This message has been edited by TheStudent (edited May 21, 2001).]

TS,<P>Just because I haven't been here for three years doesn't mean that I don't know of your story. True, I may not know every little detail, but I do recall a few certain facts. <P>If my memory serves me correctly, you have been married twice and divorced twice. Both marriages involved affairs, the first by your husband, the latter by you. <P>Forgive me if I am wrong or if my memory is off, but that's a highside of what I remember. It is this very memory which was the basis for my ending statement in my last post. For someone who was once unfaithful in a marriage herself, you sure do have a lot of nerve condemning others now.<P>In the future, please don't use the edit feature to add to your prior posts. If you have something new to add, do it in a new thread.

Ladies and Gentlemen,<P>Is any of this doing anyone any good??? I doubt it seriously. So let's cool the jets a bit and realize one very important thing. People are here to heal and it doesn't do anyone any good to make fun of someone, or be judgemental of someone.<P>We can offer our best insights, opinions, and assessments of any given situation, but lets all remember something.<P><B>No one lives their life like we would lead it for them.</B><P>So snide remarks, snappy responses, and cutting remarks really don't provide much healing. In reading this thread I have seen no movement on either side, so lets call it a draw apologize to one another, for whatever is stuck in the others craw, and get on with the business of healing.<P>Any questions, comments, sage advice??? If not, then let this thing drop and may the bigger of you all apologize.<P>God Bless,<P>JL