Jayhawk,<P>You are mostly correct. My second H cheated on me too. It is a matter of debate who cheated on whom first, but it doesn't really matter in the big scheme of things. He dated prior to filing and while we were still having sexual relations (this he admits). I'm sure he was telling his dates we were "separated". He did not have my permission to date. Nor did he tell me he was planning on dating. He decided to tell me about two or three months before he filed. <P>He had an EA and possible PA with another woman before my affair, and subsequently went on a week long vacation with her less than a month after my confession. He told me about his vacation. However, these two were seen snuggling together by a co-worker of mine before my affair. This I did not find out until after my divorce. To this day, he claims he was "faithful" to me... in true Clintonesque style. Even after the week long vacation. Oh yea. RIGHT!! So you can see, I don't have much tolerance for people who want to slither out of the adultery tag when it suits their needs. <P>I am not harsh on people who admit to being unfaithful and have taken measures to evaluate their lives and make changes. I AM harsh on people who "date" before a divorce and call it anything but adultery. I am even more harsh on people who marry their affair partners, especially if they have kids. They are setting a crappy example for them IMO. My views are not inconsistent with my past or present. What I learned from my experience is that you are either married or you are not. You are not married when you are divorced. Pretty simple.<P>Except for the, oh, one day stand I had, my behavior has been exemplary. I confessed, I put up with his hypocritical, lying, punishing crap for a year until he got tired of me and/or found someone new. At which time he filed for divorce, conveniently timed to coincide with the news of my mother's serious breast cancer that I'd been told just the week before AND trying to finish writing my Master's thesis. He was the consummate liar and user right up to the end. I've been celibate ever since...which has been about two years now. <p>[This message has been edited by TheStudent (edited May 21, 2001).]

Hi JL,<P>How's it going? Ah yes, this is starting to look pretty silly. This started between me and Sue, so this is where I'll end this.<P>Sue, <BR>I'm sorry for my words that have hurt you in the past. I hope you can forgive me.<P>Sincerely,<BR>TS

the Student,<P>Your funny, You said he did not have permission from you to date, well did he have permission to have the affair??????<P>You sure are still bitter and angry over you exH affair and the simple fact that he has moved on to another relationship. So what you do now is bash people for doing the same thing as your husband did to you. What good is it doing you to still have all of this anger?? <P>All I can say is wow!!!

As I said before, I apologize to everyone for starting this thread. My intentions were not malicious at all. BOTH sides (if you want to look at it as having sides) have thrown out some nasty remarks and sarcasm. <P>To TS: if my comment about the cheerleaders and football team offended you please understand that it was not meant to. If your sense of humor was as self deprecating and dry as mine, you might have found it funny that Sue alluded to you in another post. I would have had it been me. It was a wrong assumption, and for that I am sorry. I take much of what is said about ME with a grain of salt. (I dated four men?? Wow...I am doing pretty good....) <P>I have been reading your posts for a while, did an old search on some of them, and have had you respond to mine many times, etc. I always respected your views and you as a sometimes pompous but stick to your guns kind of person. A little hard, a little antagonistic, given to contradictions like the rest of us. But hey, that is you. That is cool. I don't have to live with you, eat with you, work with you, or like you. Just respect you. I tried in my last post to once again explain my opinion and express my regrets only to be slapped once again. I do not understand. We have bigger fish to fry here.

Indie,<BR>You're joking right? Of course I didn't give him permission to have an affair. <P>Did you see my post to Sue? Guess not. Maybe I should edit that out too since this is the SECOND friggin time I've apologized to her and noone has noticed. Why bother? She didn't notice my first one either, hence her remarks that started this whole thing. <P>"You sure are still bitter and angry over you exH affair and the simple fact that he has moved on to another relationship."<P>It is not that simple, but nice try. I guess you didn't read my other post either. I promised not to call people who held your beliefs "users" if people like you didn't call me or others who hold my beliefs to be "bitter". <BR>

gsd,<P>friggin A, girl. Give it up, will you? Don't even bother to "apologize" if you're planning on following it up with a bunch of other junk. You're not sorry about what you said. Not really. Fine. Noone is twisting your arm to apologize. Certainly not me. Your previous post was hardly an apology and neither is this one. I don't even care if you respect me or not. Just don't expect me to sit on my hands when you start your own thread and dedicate it to putting me in my place. <BR>

Stu,<P>Thanks for the summary of your story. I know that I didn’t know all of the details, but I thought I remembered some of them correctly. One thing is for certain: We can’t change our pasts and the future has yet to be written. Learning from our past is key. And as I said before, I commend you now for standing by your convictions and the boundaries you have set for yourself.<P>I humbly apologize to you for being as harsh as I was throughout this thread. I guess I still have some lingering hostility from our issues last November and I allowed those old clashes to influence my tones today. We both can be pretty good at pushing buttons and I allowed mine to be pushed.<P>As far as I am concerned, I am finished with this thread as well.<BR>

the student,<P>My belief is not to date or anything wile still married even going through a divorce. I can just tell that the more you read this post the angrier you get, and it shows that you hold a lot of resentment still towards your exh, which by all means is acceptable too me, I was jsut trying to say, try and calm down and not get so worked up over it, just give them your perspective on things.<P>yes I was serious, about it reread what you said. too me when you said you did not give him permission to date, he did not take the vows seriously why would he take you telling him not to date serious?? <P>Whe I sadi your funny, it was because it reminds me of what I tried to say to my STBX(wife) and she did not listen. Am I making it a little clearer now where I am coming from.

Jayhawk,<P>I acknowledge your sentiments and do humbly apologize for any pain I've caused you as well. Best wishes.<P>Sincerely,<BR>TS

Indie,<P>I'm guessing there is a bit of a language barrier? Are you from India? I understand what you mean by "funny" now. Not funny, ha, ha. But funny strange, right?<P>Yes, I could stand to not get so worked up. It is not as simple as an affair or even him leaving. My first H cheated on me with 20 different women (according to him), but he did not cut me down or degrade me like my second H did. My first H was actually very gentle with me, but just could not be with one woman apparently. <P>There was some abuse in the second. Mostly mental/emotional and a couple of times physical. No excuses on my part. I stayed because I thought I deserved it and that things would get better. Typical story. This is what I have the hardest time getting over. That, and the stigma of two divorces.

No California, (but I guess you could say another country)<P>I feel for you and heck I use to be so angry also, but I look at it now and think why bother getting all worked up over it. You can not change the past only improve on the future. Just think positive, I tell myself everyday, (HA! I am better off without her!!) <P>Well just try and keep a cool head, and give yourself a break fom all the anger....<P>

Hey!<BR>Put me in the "Friends of STU" column! You and Nellie are the two I respect most around here.....you both have the courage of your convictions....very rare (and refreshing) nowadays.<P>This all reminds me of Harry Truman....a popular saying at the time was "Give 'em Hell, Harry!" to which President Truman remarked, "I don't give 'em Hell...I just tell 'em the truth and they think it's Hell!" (or sumthin like that)<P>Sooooo.....GIVE 'EM HELL, STU!<P>Xman

Just got home from work and read through this thread...wow!!<P>Student, thanks for your apology, and if I have offended you, I am sorry as well. I do hope you know that I DO wish you happiness, as I wish all here that...God knows, after what we have all been through, we deserve it!!<P>So, lets bury the hatchet, and get down to some serious soul searching and support here. We all have some good things to bring to the table, and, hopefully, without personal attacks, we can do some great debating!!<P>------------------<BR>Susan

Like Indie, I too get angrier and angrier as I read this thread. Perception is 90% of everything, and our perception of each other's words and ideas do not mesh well, TS. I have been offended by your tone and your comments here on this thread, not because of the things you believe, but what and how it has been expressed. But I also understand that my words, though maybe more subtle, have hurt exactly the same way. Just because I may not have been offended by them had they been directed at me, certainly doesn't mean that someone else may not. That is my own insensitivity and obnoxious pride. I have never been very good or eloquent with words when it comes to apologies (bad English teacher!), so what I thought was an apology didn't really express what I wanted to say. You didn't twist my arm, I am just a little slow and have a tendency to ramble. If anything I said offended you TS, I really am sorry. Truly.

gsd,<P>The best I can do at this time is acknowledge that you are trying to apologize and give you the benefit of the doubt that you are sincere. I acknowledge and appreciate your effort. While it doesn't make me feel good to know that I have caused you pain, I must stop short of offering a full apology on my part--at this time. I only do so when it is 100% sincere. If you note my previous apologies to other people here, they were open ended without making reference to past hurts they caused me or making digs about future expectations. It stands on it's own. <P>Xman,<BR>I like that saying too. There are times for "brutal" honesty. Yet, I still admire people like JL, K, and a few others I know who somehow manage to say the same things as me and soften the edges. Like the song goes...just a spoonful of sugar helps the medicine go down... <P>Hope all is well with you. Thanks for dropping in.<P>Sue,<BR>I saw your post. Thank you. <P>As a final note, I'll tell you that I have no interest in debating this dating issue anymore. We all might as well be arguing about which ice cream flavor is better...vanilla or chocolate. <P>Indie,<BR>You mentioned that I still seemed to hold alot of resentment against my exH and that I tended to get angrier and angrier as I continued to post on this thread. I thought about it and came to the conclusion that my anger on this thread had nothing to do with my ex. The period of time most of these people are referring to as far as "bashing" them goes was about a six month period--started about a year ago and (IMO) ended about 6 months ago. I haven't bashed them for their beliefs in quite awhile. Back then you could say that I was singling out people who shared similar beliefs as my ex and I have admitted such on this thread and previously. Hope that clears things up.<P><BR>

The Student <BR>I agree with you on the anger issue and the dating thing, now for something more improtant.<P>chocolate is the better ice cream. And there is no arguing about that!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

GSD - you started this thread... you had an idea of where it was going to go. I'm a little surprised that you're offended by anything. It was a can of worms and it seems as though you had something to say/prove by starting it. What was your intent in pulling TheStudent aside anyway? Well, it has been exhausted I should think...<P>It's hard not to take things personally especially the way in which something is delivered but we must realize that no one can change anyone... we learn the hard way that no one is to play the Holy Spirit in anyone else's life.<P>I hope we all can have a nice day... life's too short for insults.<P>------------------<BR>We cannot do everything at once... but we can do something at once

TS:<BR> My apology was sincere, and if you choose to not accept it, that's your choice. I am sorry you feel the need to ration out an apology to me (for lack of a better term :s ??). I expressed my feelings of discontent<BR>just the same as you had in earlier posts. In my book, it is important to say, "I am hurt, you crossed a line" just as much as "I know I did too, and I am sorry for my offenses." That is one lesson that I have learned through<BR>all this. I used to let my ex walk on me, say things to me that were uncalled for, and abuse the faith I had in him. I questioned my own spirit. Not his fault, mine. So now, if someone hurts me, I say so. I probably should not<BR>have tagged it with an apology, however. It may not be the way you do it, but it does not make my apology any less sincere, honest, or heart-felt. I really don't like where this has gone, and based on our previous posts and<BR>conversations that have been so pleasant and mutually respectful, I am surprised that you really think there was any malice present in my comments I can be stubborn and proud, but I do not like to hurt people. If you wish, here is my email (you are only the second one to get this, so cherish it ) [email]morristhecat72@hotmail.com<BR><mailto:morristhecat72@hotmail.com> [/email]. I think everyone is exhausted from reading this mess here, and it is getting cumbersome.<P>OvrCs<BR>Actually, I did not know that it would end up exactly where it has. Most of the strongest bantering has been between Stu and others here. Yeah, I pulled her into this thread by addressing it to her, but I wanted to address something said on a different post in a separate thread because I<BR>didn't want to digress on WIFTT's. Only to say, hey, you have a rep. That is it. Not so bright, I know. Some might think that I just wanted to start something. Actually, if you go back to my previous posts, Stu and I had<BR>debated in the past and got along great. Mutual respect and intelligent discussion. I enjoy that. I also have never really taken any strong stands one way or another or formed "alliances" with anyone here (almost). I stay<BR>pretty neutral about most things. What I regret too is my original analogy because the metaphoric nature of it got lost somewhere between the infidelity board and the multiple dating-partners issue. Not a smart choice of images on my part. <BR> <BR>As a public forum, I know others can read and respond, but it was NOT my intent to have a 50+ thread devoted to debating Stu's attitudes. I really just wanted to say something to her. Virtually noone here even knows<BR>my first name, and my private email has not been posted here as to chat about anything privately (until now). I will admit that it was naive of me to assume that with the Student's reputation the thread would not be a can<BR>of worms. In fact, in my original post, I did acknowledge that a "debate" would start-half joking-because where the Student is, people do flock to read and respond with a vengence. But she had been gone for so long, who<BR>knew. If I have no reason to be offended because I "started it" then neither does Stu because of all that she has "started" elsewhere, again for lack of a better term. We both know that is ridiculous, and she has a right to feel offended by much that was said as I'm sure she is. If something is said that is offensive to a person, the provocation is not relevant. It is wrong, period. Some of it was pretty harsh. I could feel the anger all the way here. But I agree that this thread has been exhausted. Terribly. You are right, people cannot change other people. If that were true, we would all have perfect exes!

gsd,<P>"So now, if someone hurts me, I say so. I probably should not have tagged it with an apology, however. It may not be the way you do it, but it does not make my apology any less sincere, honest, or heart-felt."<P>Good enough...<P>So, gsd, please accept my apology for any hurts I may have caused you.<P>Sincerely,<BR>TS

Indie,<P>Well...I was raised in Southern CA, and I say VANILLA is the best!! LOL <P>Just kidding. Chocolate is my favorite too.