OK, so she's only a block away? How's that? Do you live in a small town? Did she do this to be near to the kids?<P>Hang in there... rise above it. As Gnome said, do not let her moods and treatment of you define you. It's hard to be empathetic to people who have the ability to turn our lives upside down... but persevere my friend!<P>Go to that grad party and hold your head high. You are the Dad... let them see you are not shirking your responsibilities and for goodness sake, try not to engage in any negative talk about what's going on - productive talk is fine - that which doesn't rip your wife apart.<P>Let us know how it goes...<P>------------------<BR>We cannot do everything at once... but we can do something at once

Well, she came up today at noon to get the kids. She wanted to talk about what she was taking, and I didn't really, but did anyway. She started getting a little over the top, and disrespectful. She asked if she could use the phone, and I said no, not if you are going to come in here, and talk to me that way...she persisted a little. I eventually asked her to leave, and she relented. After a couple of minutes, she asked to use the phone again, and I said yes that time. I gave her a bunch of food, her child support check, and offered to help move 'her stuff', but I really don't want to be involved, I hate how she still walks around here, and just starts saying, 'I'm taking this', etc. Its still too hard for me. She left with two kids. About an hour later, she came back with the other son, and he stayed with me and my oldest son, took a shower, ate, and left.<BR>I am really depressed about all of this. Sometimes, it seems like she doesn't want it, either, but I know that's probably me, and not her.<BR>Anyway, tomorrow, she will gut the house, whether I like it, or not, and I will have to do something with the voids all over.

Sorry, I spaced the questions out. Yes...in fact, you can cross the dead end street I'm on, go to her place and never cross again. Samuel could walk it safely...it's 'so convenient'. Yes, she has made it very clear that she wants to be near them, and she only talks to me with respect to them, or her stuff. She did ask me about my car, and asked me if I could afford to pay child support since I wasn't working, I told her, yes, I quit my job, but that doesn't mean I'm not working. Truth is, I'm not 'officially' working, but I've got some money, and some more coming.

w_f_h,<P>I have just a bit of time at the moment, but as I told you, I am keeping up with you.<P>I'm glad she's close by for the children. That's gotta be comforting. Although the whole splitting up the belongings is ick, I remember it well. Luckily (?)for me, my ex and I seperated three times before the divorce was final, and chose what we wanted. He got tons of *new* stuff (antiquing, and given to him) and literally had to give things away in the end -- he had too much -- go figure!<P>I don't see (anywhere in this thread) why you quit your job... and I wonder, does this affect how she views you, as a husband, father, etc? Can you talk about this a bit more?<P>

Heh. I guess I was lucky, re splitting up "the stuff". My wife is living with her mother and was constrained in what she could take by lack of space at her mother's house. Also, I didn't have to suffer through discussions, since I just came home from work one day to find a bunch of her stuff gone (enough that she must have hired movers). And after that she refused to have any contact with me or to come near the house.<P>Still, the haste in which she left obviously made for some mistakes. Among other things, I think she has one of my shoes...<BR>

Yes, The Man With One Red Shoe...I remember you.

I quit my job because it was 12 miles away, and I had no reliable way to get there at the time, and my job was being phased out, etc. Plus, I hated it. I'm sure she has grave concerns, and probably is getting a lot of mileage out of it. I surprised her by having money, I think. I have three contract jobs right now, and I am working on a few others. I am less concerned about finances now than I was a week ago, when I was still officially working. I am getting my car fixed this week, and I am buying a truck. I also am finishing some projects around the house, too. I have some work to do this week for a friend, which will pay a few hundred dollars. Money is getting better, but its the only thing that is right now. I am concentrating my efforts on ONE THING AT A TIME. My ex-wife asked me once, 'What if it takes a year?'...I found it an odd thing to say at the time, but now, I'm not so sure. Confusion rules the day there.<BR>I am still pleased at the changes in the relationships I have with my sons. We have very solid relationships, and we are making plans for the summer, which I like. We are going to a wrestling tournament out of town on Father's Day weekend. I like that alot.

Well, I haven't posted in a while. Things are not good here these days. I have stopped initiating contact with her, but she still came by here a half a dozen times, and calls sometimes. She sounds pleasant, pleased to speak with me, and completely done with me. I can't get by this. I had too much invested, and I feel awful. I just want her back. That's all. My giver is out of gas. I've got nothing left now, and she doesn't want anything from me, anyway. There really isn't anything I can do about anything anymore. I don't like that. I feel used, and used up. What now?

Since the divorce, she hasn't followed the custody agreement. She took the kids Saturday afternoon, and they came back on Monday because her A/C didn't work. They were supposed to be there until Wednesday, and Sunday is obviously MY day, so they won't go back until Monday. My 17 year old just went there for the frist time yesterday.<P>She seems to need to call about them alot, too. She has made three 'visits' to retrieve 'her stuff', some of which I wanted to keep. I have given her everything she has asked for, and more. I haven't been very pleasant when she starts to be disrespectful. I have asked her to leave 4 times since the divorce. I can't be sure what is going on anymore. I am confused, and lost. I need some input, and advice. What I really need is to know what is going on with her, me and that OM.

I don't understand...what am I doing wrong HERE? ^^^^^<p>[This message has been edited by waiting_for_her (edited June 15, 2001).]

I sure in heck don't know what you're doing wrong... <P>I guess... at this point... back way off... nothing you do seems right, right? So, do nothing.<P>Wait, like you already are... very quietly. <P>As far as the custody agreement... well... sigh... I understand the kids in the heat thing... is it that you want to force her to follow the agreement? Because, if you can do it, I'd say, yeah, let her bring the kids back if it's for a good reason, and be kind, but short... no longish talks... and it this continues, and the reasons make no sense, then you have a choice-- go back to court and modify the visitation, or... not, and continue to wait. Just don't let her use you as a doormat.

No, I don't want to even try to force anything with anyone at this point. I'm just really frustrated, and tired. and lonely. I don't have anything to give my kids now to be honest, and they just tend to remind me of what a failure this all has been, what a failure I feel like, and how much responsibility I still have, and how poorly things have turned out. It just takes all of the wind out of my sails, and I feel empty inside, and hurt, and guilty, and impotent.

Hi... I'm sorry I haven't posted in a while. Just got back from a business trip and have been out of touch a bit. So sorry to hear about your impasse... I can totally relate to your feelings and I just don't know what to say. I re-read what Gnome had to say about transferring those dead inside feelings about herself on to you... and then her asking for one year... I don't know. It all seems too surreal right now for you to make any sense. I hope your children's feelings are being considered here also... so far, have you seen them react in any negative way to the confusion?<P>Again, so sorry about all that you're going through... wish I could help... help us all. God, help us all! Please!<P>------------------<BR>We cannot do everything at once... but we can do something at once

How's this for surreal? On Wednesday and Thursday, my oldest son spent the night at her place, and so did the OM. Today, the middle two and I were at a wrestling tournament all the way over where OvrCs lives (Well, we were at Grayslake to be exact.). Both took third, although one had to pin himself along the way! (It happens, I'm told!) On the way back, we talked at length (had to...I couldn't find the $%^&! toll road [AGAIN!]), and he has been trying to win them over, too. They don't like him. Awwwww. Seriously, though, I hadn't thought about how I would feel hearing them express how they felt about him, or any of it. I think it is apparent that I'm in way over my head with this grieving, and the self-pity and self-loathing are difficult to keep at bay, especially when I get the full force of it from them. Like when my 6 year old answers the phone, and I hear him say, "No...my Mom and Dad are divorced." Or when I see his truck at her apartment. I usually go another way because she lives on the next street, and it is the logical route to get anywhere in this one-horse town, but I can't tolerate the place, or going by it, or anything else.<BR>I listened to 'Love Must Be Tough' tapes last night, and it was very depressing how on the money they were. There was encouragement, as well, but the next level of this is going to get much more difficult. It is a lot like Divorce Busters, and 'going dark', which is hard enough, but there is a recommendation to start dating, which I am not comfortable with for a multitude of reasons, not the least of which is I don't think I could buy a date in my condition, let alone actually go through with it. My intent, I think is clear, and how honest would it be for me to even consider it? I am apalled at the speed at which SHE is moving away, and I'd do anything I could to slow her down at least, but she is on the express train right now. I am still sitting in the station!<p>[This message has been edited by waiting_for_her (edited June 16, 2001).]

What did you like most about the "Love must be Tough" ideas? I've read and re-read that book but find it hard to do. I tried writing the letter of letting go and he just said, "So, why do you feel the need to let me go? I'm going whether you like it or not." SLAM... into my face.<P>I'm beginning to wonder if I'm going to make in under the same roof as this guy... God's grace. It has to be sufficient. It's so hard to see the changes we make in ourselves and that it really doesn't make a difference in the one relationship that you hope it will. Well, now I'm trying to distance myself because the intensity of the rejection is about to kill me. Anyway, I'm hoping to focus all of my plan Aing benefits for the kids. James 3:17 keeps jumping out at me as a framework for the way to live... and if you can read it in <I>The Message</I> translation, it really kicks one in the behind.<P>Anyway, I just want to live at peace... are you with me?<P>ps. I have no idea where Grayslake is? <P>------------------<BR><I>As iron sharpens iron, so does one wo/man sharpen another...</I> Prov 27:17

Well, I know where Graylake is, but I don't know where everything else is once I get there. Its North up 494/94, on the way to Milwaukee. Its one of those 'Lake Towns' that are rampant up there...North north suburbs, I guess, although I felt it was just southern Wisconsin.<P>The thing of it is, he hasn't gone, though. That means SOMETHING, doesn't it? Yes, God's Grace...funny thing that, sometimes. I find myself not wanting it if it means the end, but the end is in the mirror at this point. Accpetance, I don't understand. I accept what has happened, but I can't be 'good with it.' People don't understand that. Move on? To WHERE? Why? I am not supposed to want her back. Now, how odd is THAT? I haven't even spoken to her since...oops...Wednesday? Yes, Wednesday. She has a phone, I'm told....want the number? She hasn't given the number to me...of course she knows both of mine, and she does call every few days, but that will stop soon...I mean she has her cake pans now, so what would she need from me?<P>I liked the no-nonsense practical approach. I tend to balk when given an abstract noun as the definition of another abstract noun. I hate the 'you just know' BS she always fed me. Move the target a little, watch me miss AGAIN, and...oh, start an affair with one of my friends, and tell EVERYONE who has an ear how much you've moved beyond me due to my inability to love you properly. Hey, show him off to my children while you're at it...maybe someday they'll call him Daddy. NOT ON MY WATCH, SISTER. Yes, you castrated me, emasculated me, took my pride, dignity, security, sanity, and most of the other stuff that ends in y, except self-pity, but you have forgotten that the children do not share your bleak appraisal of my value as a human being, caring father, OR loving husband. You can rest assured that I am teaching my sons the TRUTH about relationships, and how women see and feel things differently, and about His Needs, Her Needs...and all of it. (Okay, the three things I know, anyway!) I also liked the fact that after I had cried a river about how I did EXACTLY those things...doused the flickering flame by being needy, and building a fence around her, etc., I was pleased to hear some things about her side...like she does feel guilty, and that guilt contains a seed of hope for me. I have also managed to play my end of it pretty well, despite the fact that I HAVE NO IDEA WHAT I AM DOING....KIDS, PLEASE DON'T TRY THIS AT HOME...I AM A TRAINED PROFESSIONAL (LOLAROTF) ON A CLOSED COURSE. (YEAH, CLOSED TO ME.) I haven't read the books, but listening to him tell you personally hurts, too. He has a very southern accent, and uses country music to point out what a redneck I'd been in years past when it came to my marriage. I mean, I never did any of the really despicable things, that's probably why I'm alone now. The shame of it all is, that I did do a lot of the right things very consistently, and it made no difference. It's all my fault...no it isn't...yes it is...infinity! I will say that since we have to do ALL of the 'distasteful ruminating and gyrating', its orders of magnitude more difficult to bear for us. What do you suppose would happen if they got a peek at THAT? (You know, the consequences of their action...not just our devastation, or the children's devastation...but their own?) What do you suppose their 'souls' look like? What is the nature of her 'peace'...truly? If I ever get the sense that she is truly at peace, I'm outta here. I cannot conceive that God told her to get a divorce...I think He said to get another horse....and she just didn't listen very well.<P>Do you have anyone to talk to besides this...I don't, really, except for my sister, but that's not as helpful as it was before D-Day. I am really starting to suffer as a result, and I'm not sure I want to go to a group thing yet. My XMIL is not well, and she has quite the venomous tongue these days, you'd think she just got her first liberty pass after a 6 month IO cruise. (She's pretty pi$$ed about her STBX, his OW, and my situation is just a descender from her bottom line.) That does me no real good. My friends here are her friends, too, and all they want is to keep things 'light'. Yes, I was there BEFORE the divorce watching him put his arm around her, notice me, and look like the fox in the henhouse. Showed me a ton of character there, they did. I also hate the whipped pup thing his sister (the Good witch, not Zoloft-Queen) gives me everytime I see her.<P>Okay, now, about that peace thing you were talking about....yeah, sure, why not? Truth be known, I don't pray for her happiness, or mine. I don't pray for peace, except in the Middle East, and you can see how well I'm doing on that. I pray for my marriage to be restored. I pray for her to come back to me. I pray for Grace, and strength, and some days, just for a backbone. I pray to be heard. I pray for respect. I pray for a lot of stuff I probably shouldn't at this point.<P>About James...I've always liked James alot. I like James 2:17 for my plan of action mission statement (Is this what you were talking about?)<BR> So also faith, if it have not works, is dead by itself.<BR>This is from the Darby Translation. I have a CD with 5 translations, including Latin. I like it, but The Message is not there, unfortunately. I agree with you about that translation. I never did like The Way so much...too watered down, and it loses some of its punch that way. KJV is a little too formal at times, but still...I read it, or NAB, which is the 'official' version for Catholics here. I have stopped going to my parish...it is her parish, too, and Father did not even try to save the marriage, in my opinion. He let her blame me, and told us to 'divorce, but be holy.' WHAT? My Bible doesn't read that way AT ALL, but I guess that's just MY COPY, eh? Anyway, I am going to join another Church, and leave that one behind.<P>Okay, gotta go...please keep in touch...I'm having a real hard time, too, and your posts have helped more than you could possibly know. BTW, I like your signature. Proverbs is a fantastic book! I think there is a deeper implication to the verse about how this sharpening comes at the cost of something of yourself. When you sharpen something, you remove the material keeping it from bring 'keen', leaving the shiny, perfect metal behind, but you leave a little of the other material, too. Thus, both are sharpened in the process. Most excellent. HAVE A BLESSED DAY.

<B>Since the divorce, she hasn't followed the custody agreement. She took the kids Saturday afternoon, and they came back on Monday because her A/C didn't work</B><BR>I suggest you get a log book & keep track of when she/you have the kids, down to the minute. Child support can be adjusted if the time a parent has them is more/less than the agreement. (Don’t let her know you are keeping track)<P>This is not just so you can get it adjusted, but when she decides she wants more, you can bring the facts with you.<P>Most people who divorce seem to think it will “solve” all the problems. But as you are so plainly discovering, it doesn’t work that easy. She hasn’t dealt with everything, so she is staying a part of your life.<P>Hang on.<P>------------------<BR>Prayers & God Bless!<BR>Chris<BR>For relationship info check out <A HREF="http://www.pcisys.net/~chriscal1/resources.html" TARGET=_blank>Marriage & Relationship Resources</A>

James 3:17 from The Message <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Real wisdom, God's wisdom, begins with a holy life and is characterized by getting along with others. It is gentle and reasonable, overflowing with mercy and blessings, not hot one day and cold the next, not two-faced. You can develop a healthy, robust community that lives right with God and enjoy its results only if you do the hard work of getting along with each other, treating each other with dignity and honor.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>My father-in-law, a pastor, has given me that over and over again to ruminate over... when my H is being rude or disrespectful or rejecting, my FIL simply states, "Stay on course, Nicole." So, I press on... To what? I've heard someone else say talking about the misuse of Plan A and the other concepts by Harley... to use the material with the expectation of reuniting your marriage rather than simply as a way of life. That is so tough for me.<P>You know, I'm so very glad about your relationship you have with your kids. It's just a killer now but my mind is playing tricks on me that they really would love life better with their Dad and it would be better for me to disappear. Now, I'm not in the frame of mind to kill myself or anything drastic like that (at this point). But, it's coming at me from all sides... the rejection. So, maybe I'm just not "GETTING" it yet... my lesson from God that my worth on this planet has nothing to do with being acceptable to other men/children. It's about HIM and accepting the love HE has for me... I've been reading and re-reading that book by Henri Nouwen called <I>The Inner Voice of Love: a Journey from Anguish to Freedom</I> and I highly recommend it to you. He was a Catholic priest who'd dedicated his last ten years to work with mentally handicapped. It's unbelievable. I just read one or two spiritual imperatives each night after I read a chapter or two in my bible (currently am reading through the Psalms in the Message version). So, anyway, I digress... and my point is that until I come to be AT HOME with myself... to the center of my being one with the One who created me to be at One with him... I will continue to experience the anguish. But last night in particular, I read his thoughts about really <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B><I>living</B></I> through my wounds instead of simply <I>thinking</I> them through. It is better to cry than to worry, better to feel your wounds deeply than to understand them, better to let them enter into your silence than to talk about them. The choice you face constantly is whether you are taking your hurts to your head or to your heart.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Ah so, this is my problem.... so now, when I feel like crying, I cry. My H is very sensitive to my moods and I have to be careful not to manipulate him with this... which is not my intention but to get even that attention from him - I crave it so much. This constant rejection is a killer. At least he isn't using me though...<P>So, I can't imagine the strength you must muster up each morning to get out of bed. I don't know what I'd do if there were an OP in the picture... visibly as it is with you. AND that this guy is a so-called friend... now WHAT IS UP WITH THAT? Does he have no dignity? How did they fall into that? Anyway, going through what I'm going through, I'm beginning to wish I'd find another man to simply love me. BUT, I've learned from others so well that that's for my own selfish needs and would do severe damage to all parties involved.<P>I do talk about this... I have about six people with whom I rotate my concerns so that I don't burn one out! I'd recommend you PRAYING fervantly for this... God will provide people to love you. I also went to a group thing at church called Divorce Care - which met for 13 weeks. <P>Remember what Gnome said about your spouse needing to be near you so that she could continue to project her failings onto you, since you take them, so that she won't have to deal with them herself? I've really been thinking about that and feel I'm in the same boat. No, I'm not so sure that it's good that we'll be in the same house - at least for my sanity. I just need to learn how to deflect his projections... I should ask BrambleRose about that... taking blame for everything - as you do. We need a strategy to combat that and to deflect the blame without shirking reasonable responsibility for this mess we're in.<P>By the way, we just bought our house in Wheaton... still working on negotiations with it though. If they don't correct the outrageous Radon level then the deal is off and we're back to square ONE! It's in God's hands... sorry for rambling... I'm still on jet lag after my trip to Bangkok last week.<P>Cheers!<P>------------------<BR><I>As iron sharpens iron, so does one wo/man sharpen another...</I> Prov 27:17

OvrCs,<BR> I know Wheaton...it's nice. One of my EXSILs used to live there. It is interesting to me that your FIL is a clergyman. What is his spiritual take on what his son is doing? On what you are doing? (If you don't mind my asking, that is.) Yes, I had figured that the Message would have synopsized (sp?) the verse you mention. It is very powerful, though...good choice. Community...fellowship...responsiblilty...answerability. Intersting things, those. I've got the last two in spades now, and the fellowship is there when I seek it, but I am hiding out in the community right now. I don't like that, but I can't see them socially yet. I don't think I ever will be able to do that.<P>Someone else had mentioned Henri Nouwen...BR, maybe? Anyway, I wondered why the name seemed familiar to me, and now I know who he is. I think I should get that one, too...don't you? Yes, well I try to avoid ACTUALLY feeling them, or living them, but this one...please, like I could even fake that! About getting out of bed...yes, its a chore EVERY TIME, but I have no choice obviously. Sleep is a safe place where we can unwind, have our own way, not have to be responsible for ANYTHING, and get automatic validation. It is also a place for me where things are JUST like my reality, so its not such a bargain these days. In fact, I didn't sleep at all from Thursday night, until this morning, except a couple of 20 minute power naps. It worked well for me, but I'm not likely to repeat it intentionally any time soon.<P>My EXMIL went to Divorce Care. There used to be a post-it note on the kitchen cabinet where my ex-wife had written it down for her mother. I don't want to go there right now, but I have to do something. I had a counselor at Catholic Social Services, but had no transportation, or money. Now, I have no money, but transportation. That is why I post so heavily here. It's about all I've got that's safe from her, and I really need someone who understands how I feel. I get a lot of acidic suggestions from my mother, and I am quite disappointed in my Priest over this. He didn't try very hard, and he let her lie, and berate me at the joint 'counseling' session....divorce and be holy....not too canned there at all. I hope he rested after that one.<P>I'm not sure what to pray for....get the house...don't get the house....darned fences! How about this: I pray that you get what you need...I pray that you find what you want...I ask God to shower you with all His blessings...and I hope that your H opens his eyes, and heart to you. Finally, I hope that that is what you want, and God wants, too. Bless you, Nicole. Have a good day.<p>[This message has been edited by waiting_for_her (edited June 18, 2001).]

HI...I'm still up late. Well I want to thank you for your closing words... <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I pray that you find what you want...I ask God to shower you with all His blessings...and I hope that your H opens his eyes, and heart to you. Finally, I hope that that is what you want, and God wants, too. Bless you, Nicole. Have a good day.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>My FIL is a pastor and preaches around the world. They are/were distraught over their son's decision. For the most part, they've been supportive of both of us and consider us one. Well, I enjoy that and yet, it's a bit like burying your head in the sand. My H says, "Dad just doesn't get it." So, that's the way it goes...<P>So, anyway, how was your Monday? Mine was kind of a bummer, oldest son (7) was sick with some sort of stomach thing throwing up and weak all day. He perked up by night though. Whew.<P>Tomorrow, it's to the zoo or a water park I guess. H is working... and still he's negotiating on the house. I'm just letting him handle it. He's always accused me of making decisions for him. I'm willing to try this arrangement but it's his decision. I've asked him not to discuss the D until after we're settled in - that is if he's not rushed. He said no, he's not rushed. So, that's that.<P>How are your boys - teenagers taking all of this? Or, is it too soon to know? I still can't believe just like that it was over for you. What a blow...<P>And, do tell about how your friend got involved with your wife... or did I miss that earlier. That has got to be a bummer. Some friend, but ya know... I've heard that story over and over again.<BR><P>------------------<BR><I>As iron sharpens iron, so does one wo/man sharpen another...</I> Prov 27:17