That's what I thought about your FIL. Right...HE doesn't get it. No denial there, huh? Anyway, your FIL preaches around the world? That's impressive to me! So, he has a missionary vocation, then? What denomination? I have been generally dissatisfied with my church. There are a lot of good people there that I dearly love, but the Priest's piety is in serious doubt in my mind. I think that it is too much for him at times, and he justifies less than total committment, which is unacceptable to me. My XFIL used to be a deacon of some note, but was asked to step down when his marriage started to fail. He chose to follow his selfish heart/soul then, and my XW has followed him. Little did I know then that he had had his OW for a couple of years at that point. (She is twice D'ed, and their EA/PA started when they were BOTH married.)<P>Sounds like your baby had some food poisoning, I notice that a lot in summer, you know? I had a blowout with Teri about child support. She did not have the boys last week because her A/C was broken, so they stayed here, and she only had them for 2 days the previous week. Also, the Memorial Day camping incident still weighs heavy on my mind/heart. I said that I would give her $26. She said, okay, and wanted it then. I wanted to keep an upper hand, so I said I don't have it right now, and I would give it to her later. She had called here, and talked to S3, and just showed up in my driveway waiting for them. She has a phone, but has not given me the number. (Not that I would call, it violates plan B rules, but I feel I should have the opportunity to ignore her, at least!) Actually, S3 already told me the number, but...aaahh...whatever. Other than that, Monday was okay. I visited with my neighbor (which I never did before...only lived 2 houses away for 8 years!), he is a good man, and very supportive of me and is a Godsend to S4.<P>With this heat/humidity, I'd vote for the water park over the zoo, even though it can be more expensive. Brookfield Zoo is excellent. Say hello to the ape for me...he is my bud. This ape actually will 'give you the finger'. I think that people have accidentally trained him to communicate this way. I have a video of him watching me video tape him. That tape is precious...it has S3 when he was about 4, and he was a pill then!<P>I thought it was too soon, but they have been very frank about all of it. S1 is pragmatic. Tells me maybe now I can find someone new. (EEK! TOO SCARY!) S2 is hit like me. When I said we needed to 'move on', (w/h)e almost lost it. I told him that I had not given up on a reconciliation, but that moving on meant from the heartbreak, and attempted destruction of the familial unity we share. They have to divide it up now, which is just horrible, but that is reality now. S3 is in between those extremes. He wants it back, too, but S2 and S3 are seriously questioning her integrity, and morality, why wouldn't they? Back to that in a minute. S4 is another matter altogether. I think I've laid it out here before, but...he is definitely Daddy's boy, no one will tell you any different on that. That is more her doing than mine, however. I just pick up her slack, that's all. He got four conducts in a row the last four days of school. (He is 6, mind you.) He slapped another kid, and that is not him. He has only two, or three mild conducts all year, and then four major ones in a row! He is needing constant attention, and is very demanding, and generally whiny ALL THE TIME. I have little patience for that now, since I AM THAT WAY, TOO! I can't tell you how much I need an SO now, and how completely 'unready' my psyche is for that. That's one of the worst parts of this, especially when you consider that that is why she is doing all of this, and I was ready to move mountains for her. DAMN! I still am. Just gotta start budging them, that's all. I only need to see them move a little, then I can get the momentum going in the right direction again.<P>BTW, why would your H be rushed? That is the beauty/b!tc# of plan A. The lack of degradation of the OR, and apparent ability to keep OW, and W/kids at his leisure doesn't motivate him to at least have integrity with respect to the 'rules' of marriage. (e.g. monogamy, service, sacrifice, etc.) This is hard for you, but absolutely to your advantage. When you don't have integrity (You are not pulling your 'pieces' together consistent with your value system.) in your life, life will attack you from all sides, and nothing you do will ultimately work. You make choices that are self-destructive, and you wind up with a pile of garbage for a life. When you are the patriarch, this extends the negative consequences far from you to your matriach, and your children, and they will spread the misery by default. It is cancerous, which is interesting because cancer is some parts being mutated, and attacking the parts with integrity. We need some serious T-cells here, Nicole. Your faith is your T-cell, make it grow. T-cells attack, and kill cancer. I am pulling my pieces together, and growing T-cells. I am stronger than this. I will survive this, and I will be a better man by degrees every day, regardless of how each day turns out.<P>Last summer, we started going to the local lounge because S1 was a dishwasher there, and I'd pick him up from work. In this process, I met some good friends, among them the OM. As we started to socialize with them, she began to comment on how romantic he was with his SO at that time, and how he was D'ed and his XW was psycho, and he had custody, and he lived at his mother's house, etc. (This makes him attractive? I don't get it.) He has two sisters that are good friends with her. I began to bring her flowers I picked on my way home from work. I'd take them to her at work, and her co-workers were very impressed by this. She got a lot of attention, and we even went out on some dates for the first time in YEARS. I did all I could to make it work. It was great, but I did notice her moving towards him, even then. He finally broke up with his SO, and she went to him then. The kids are beginning to realize that she did this BEFORE the D, not after. S2 said 'I don't think its fair that she has him over when we are there. I don't like him.' Nicole, that young man (15 since May 12th) has more integrity than ANYONE I know. I didn't just come to that conclusion, ask anyone that knows him. They will tell you the same thing. I wonder how she reconciles his position, if she even attempts to, that is. It makes me physically sick, it really does. One of OM's sisters is a verified nut job, all of her friends (except XW) will tell you this. She is suffering from what I call the 'Oprah Syndrome' which is simply an overapplication of self-indulgence, and a move away from culpability, and integrity. I love Oprah, but everything in moderation, please. Sometimes, we do have to take the 'short end of the stick' so that someone else does not have to. Why have we forgotten that? Why does it have to always be about the individual? And why do I feel like my needs are subjugated by default? I don't even get the satisfaction of knowing that I CHOSE to supply someone else's needs over mine. I think that that is what some women feel when they get dissatisfied with their marriage, especially when it comes to men not helping with the day to day items like doctor's visits, dishes, etc. You know, I'm sure. I'm sorry about that. Like I said in the child support debate, men have an equivalent thing that they go through, it involves the whole 'I'm the breadwinner, validate me' speech that I am sure you know, too. Neither one of these is ever said without being valid. We both (men and women) drop the ball when we try to apply our gender's sensiliblity to it. ("You just don't get it, do you?") Why would we, unless we took the time to put their feelings into the PROPER perspective. I do a lot of dishes these days, and its not because I have to. That is the nature of it. Marriage is not giving yourself as a person so much as it is taking the gender specific portions of our spouse, and integrating it into ourselves while patiently teaching them our gender specific makeup. That is how God makes us whole. When we put the 'me, me, me' into it, we make it a farce. That is why it fails. I now must teach my sons about the differences between men and women, but I can't fall into what I have seen recently, which is a bitter diatribe on the opposite sex. I revel in our differences, and I feel like a better person when I integrate some femininity into my testosterone clouded makeup. It takes the 'feather edge' off of my iron, exposing the sharp blade beneath.<BR><p>[This message has been edited by waiting_for_her (edited June 19, 2001).]

Your analysis is interesting... have you thought about writing in a professional journal or magazine? So, have a great Tuesday. I think we're going to the Dupage County Children's Museum in Naperville today. I'll touch back later to see how life is going today.<P>Cheers!<P>------------------<BR><I>As iron sharpens iron, so does one wo/man sharpen another...</I> Prov 27:17

I do enjoy talking and writing and speaking my mind. Since I get no validation from my XW (Okay, I shouldn't expect that...more on that later.), and it helps me to lay it out, and look at it. My lack of self-esteem prevents me from being bold in that respect. Gotta fix that because I think I could be a decent writer given an outlet. I used to talk with her for hours like that. She doesn't recall that these days. Pity.<P>She called about the money again, and was very demure and contrite...and broke. She would not come up here, which is a sign to me that she is having regrets. That won't change anything, but hey, Teri...this is reality, and your 'new life didn't change things'. (Yes, but she ISN'T the same old girl she used to be...that's the problem.) She wanted cash, but I didn't have any, and had a flat tire, and really did not want to make a trip just for her. My Giver is out of gas for her, and I need her to move off of the constant disrespect for me, which she did a little, even if it was self-serving. (Good, now how do you feel about doing THAT, Teri?) Progress, no matter how small, is a good thing to me now.<P>S3 brought some movies up to watch, and she called to ask if it was okay. There is a standing informal agreement that they are welcome here anytime...we all know that. We don't feel it necessary to lock our doors up on the hill, and I don't, they come and go at their leisure. She has to lock her door, because her neighbor is a [?]. S2 had to stay here on Monday because he couldn't get into the love shack. He needed his cleats for soccer practice. She asked me if that would affect the money, and I said that the last time SHE asked me if it was okay for them to stay here, not them. BIG difference. She didn't want to 'hear them whine' about no A/C. Funny, when mine went out, SHE did enough whining for all of us. Oh well, this is the person who thinks I don't know what sacrifice is. Any man worth his salt knows this in spades. Same for a woman. That is the nature of the vocation, but to call it sacrifice is self-serving, and just plain wrong. You do what you do to provide your part. Period. Oprah wanna-bes be damned on that one, because that is not Oprah's message. Too bad she never married Stedman, and had kids...her focus might be a little different, and our society might be, too.<P>I made some major headway on my first contract programming job, and I feel GREAT about it because it is a challenging assignment...Windows98 device driver. Messy! I have a working driver, but no real code to accomplish anything yet. That is the easy part, however. Getting it built properly, and researching it has been a bear. Wish I had charged a couple grand, not $500, but I wanted to make sure I got it. It is a major milestone. It tells me I can do this on my own, and that is VITAL to me now, as my XW withdrew support years ago, and I am in a pit on the self-esteem issue. Not very attractive, I'm afraid. This lack of support was something I felt was major, but she downplayed it as my problem. She claims to have read His Needs, Her Needs, but honestly...she should've supported me. I get very excited when I overcome technical challenges, and she was always exasperated at me for sharing my joy. I hate that...it has destroyed me, and men can't function in the good old boys network without that support. That is a big reason I lost my decent job, and why I can't get another one. I take responsibility for it, however, and I am slowly fixing it. It is agonizing, however. Oh well, there are a lot of Proverbs, and others to shore me up, not the least of which has been you. T H A N K S!<P>How was the museum? My sons all have been to the Museum of Science and Industry in town, and they have a German U-Boat, and a Lego Mindstorms robot display. I want to see that!<P>Are you getting close to closing? I like the situation, but it will be hard. I'm not sure that attempting to say what will be easier is realistic. It won't be easy at all. No matter what the actual situation, the ugliness is the same. You all will find ways to make it known, anyone who wants to promote an agenda WILL, regardless, so don't try to shield anyone here. What purpose does it serve? Total honesty. Hey, this is UGLY! Don't try to candy coat it at all! Do try to show that this is not how it should, or could be. It is only when we don't have integrity, values, or morals that we cause this. That nonsense about 'growing apart' aside, you can get what you need if you provide what your mate needs. Unless that is immoral, you should be willing to do so. If you are not, then you are being selfish. The tit-for-tat...(I won't supply your needs until you supply mine.) that is the problem. My XW decide to move the target, and watch me suffer. Too bad for her. I only hope she sees that some day. I am STILL ready to be her husband. She has a huge line of credit at my Love Bank, and man is she spending it!<P>I get very tired emotionally with it, but I have found that I can function in this state most of the time. I only hope that I can make this work for us all. I am tired of being hurt by it, but I need to go through it to the end.<P>Take care. Realize that I feel your hurt, too, and I pray that things get better for you, your kids, and your H. (I'm not so convinced about the STBX part, he does have a conscience, and that is your ally. Let him come to that on his own, it will mean so much more then.) I am trying to avoid judging her by her actions now...which is nearly impossible, but....That is what will kill it for me, I don't have a time frame, which is bad, but I will play it as it comes to me. That's my time frame. God bless.

^

You two are having such a wonderful dialogue, I hate to interrupt. Just want you to know that I am still here reading, caring, and offering up prayers... and some hugs!!<P>You're doing just fine without any advice from me, w_f_h

Hi...<P>Nyneve, you're welcome to join in anytime, as is ANYONE else... ! I've been waiting to hear from you on my other post! You and BrambleRose!<P>So, the museum was great. We're still negotiating on the house... some issues came up from the house inspection that need addressing - like a RADON score of over 15. And some chimney repair. The house was built in 1908 - so it's going to need some TLC. I'm still of the mind, take it or leave it...<P>As you can see by my other post that I'm trying to work out in my head the "next steps" as my H would like to move ahead on that when we get settled. <sigh><P>In terms of the life and life's purposes, really, I really don't think I have much of a choice. AND, he's not that bad of a guy... just really in self-preservation mode who has seen a healthier life with other women - albeit friends (so he says) and has decided that nine years with me is about enough. I'm finally coming to terms with that...<P>I just keep taking his stuff and taking it and from my FOO, we never took criticism well. So, this too is a learning curve for me... one that I need to take and grow with. I truly want to be a godly woman... one whom my children will rise up and call blessed mother someday. I just wish I had THE man to do it with... the father of my boys.<P>Anyway, today was kind of a slow day... picked up the mortgage papers from H (at work) and dropped them off then took the boys to Sam's Club... Man, when we lived overseas I never took them shopping anywhere... there is a whole etiquette to shopping with kids that is about to drive me nuts! BUT, it's a learning <I>opportunity</I>. I'm still selfish, I want someone else to do it! I just want to love my sweet, wonderful boys when they behave! No, not really... but seeing how life in America is NOT going to be as easy as it was for me living in E. Europe... I just don't know how I'm going to work full-time! No one will teach the boys what I WANT THEM TO KNOW! <P>So, Teri is asking for more again? Sucks... but then again, it's good for you to learn to listen and develop appropriate boundaries with her no matter if you two end up back together again! You will be co-partners in parenting for the rest of your lives... You can't make her do anything but you can prepare yourself not to get upset by what she does... in fact, I read something while in Bangkok about Buddhism that I really liked... being an observer. Step outside yourself and don't allow yourself to become engaged in the conflict or situation that is drawing you out of your center. Well, just because it comes from that kind of writing doesn't mean there isn't an element of truth to it! I like it because it gives a handle of something to DO in the moment of <I>heat</I> - which is precisely the worst timing for me...<P>Cheers friend... It's interesting to see what's going on between your two homes... I'm wondering which 1/2 of the home - up or down - the kids will feel more at <I>home</I> in or if it will even make a difference.<P>The kids and I looked at bunk beds today - full on the bottom and a twin on top... my oldest said, "Mommy, you and Daddy can sleep up there and us three can sleep down here." Gosh, how in the heck am I going to explain that they'll have two rooms in the same house and that Mommy will have her room and Daddy his... (that won't be so tough becuase we've been sleeping separately for months now).<P>C'est la vie!<P>------------------<BR><I>As iron sharpens iron, so does one wo/man sharpen another...</I> Prov 27:17

Nyneve...uhmmmm...this is your thread! I have missed you, and it is good to hear from you. I appreciate the kudos, but, as you can see, I've needed to vent quite a bit lately! She is jumping on the buttons like a trampoline, and I think I LIKE IT NOW! I see why, and it is encouraging to me I thought it was revenge, but it is guilt. She wants me to go ballistic, and fight for her, etc. but I now see that as not productive. She needs to respect me first. I am getting 'it' together in spades. The kids and me..we are in the very best of places, considering.<P>S1 had gotten a ticket for drinking a daquiri in public (he's 17!) Yesterday, I had a flat tire, no spare, too late to get it fixed. I asked him how were we going to make court? He said, I guess I'll turn myself in. (Not too melodramatic, huh?) I told him, they don't put out APBs for irresponsible teenagers, they simply don't have the manpower for that I stayed up late last night being depressed, as you can see, and awoke at 9:00. Called the courthouse in a panic, and they said, its okay, you can come in tomorrow, no penalty, or anything. I thought: great, but still....I went to make some coffee, and it was already made...odd, I thought. Went downstairs to roust him, and tell him the good news...he's not there. Initially, I thought, c'mon son, wake up, and do the right thing here. About an hour later, he comes home...he WENT BY HIMSELF! And...he brought a tire to put on my truck! WHAT IS UP WITH THAT!!!!!!!!!!! I had to give him the biggest bear hug I could. I told him, 'Man...Man...I am proud of you.' We went to change the tire, XW 'happened by' (weird timing, really), and asked him how it went. He told her...she said Oh, or some other SYLLABLE. <sigh><P>Anyway, I've got WORK to do tonight. I'm almost finished with my first solo contract job...I did it ALL BY MYSELF, and I couldn't be more proud of myself if there were two of me.<P>Thanks again for stopping by...it means a lot to me. Really. I will pray, too...for us all. Take care, Nyneve.<p>[This message has been edited by waiting_for_her (edited June 21, 2001).]

OvrCs...I've gotta run for a bit, but I will be back in a couple of hours to post...got some things to talk to you about, 'kay?

Man, what an awesome kid, isn't he?! Wow, I can't believe that! You have definitely done something right to raise such a responsible child as that. I'm telling you!<P>Oh, and by the way, from the sounds of your posts... you ARE getting your life back. I'm reading your posts all over the place! You're moving right along... and I'm glad for you! You've been through warp speed these past nearly four weeks since your divorce, isn't it so?<P>So, BIG congrats on you "finished project!" I know how that feels and it's great! Too bad though you didn't get more $$ for it... but it's a start and it's a confidence builder! I'm pleased.<P>Oh, and by the way, I've been thinking about what you said a few weeks ago about still fantasizing about your wife and thinking that was weak or sick... I don't think that at all. I think it's lovely. Just wanted you to know that...<P>So, it's late again and I'm NOT up for another night of 4-5 hrs of sleep, so I'm turning this computer off. I have been researching the story on the other "Nicole" (Patient Love) as I found her post so sad... after all they've been through and it doesn't sound like it's going to work after all... so sad.<P>Cheers and maybe I'll see what's up in the morning. G'night!<P>Nicole<P>------------------<BR><I>As iron sharpens iron, so does one wo/man sharpen another...</I> Prov 27:17

Nicole,<BR> Okay, well that didn't take too long. I've been thinking about your situation a lot, and I think your H is looking (subconsciously) for reasons to stall this off. It takes 4-6 weeks for someone to believe that a person has changed, or that the situation has. MY XW has said some things to me that, if I haven't read too much into, are encouraging. They are hitting me in the head these days. She said, about two months ago, 'I'm looking for opportunities to love you...', which STILL sounds funky, but I think I get it. She is watching me, and how I handle this. She WANTS to respect me, and she has 180'ed her way into expecting the worst from me. (Honestly, I MAY be failing, but I am not a failure.) Her OM LIVES WITH HIS MOTHER, and so do his three (honestly, weird) kids. She is running in a strange crowd, not at all like her. See, I thought she was the mature one, and I was Peter Pan, but I now realize that we BOTH are Peter Pan, she's just the Mary Martin, or Sandy Duncan one. Given time, and effort, I can get self-respect back, and hers, too. After that, if she can grow up some, then we will BOTH be worthy of marriage. This is God's message, I think...You both are not worthy of this gift...show me differently.<BR> My FOO is similar to yours. On top of that, my sister is the only one who truly talks to me...(strike that...actually talks to me.) My Mother and oldest brother both have venom for her...that's their way. My other brother is still arguing with my sister that I D'ed Teri. I haven't even talked to him in over a year...what does HE know? Anyway, both bros are able to help with money, but claim they can't...which is okay, because I understand how that threatens their security. If I lose my house, it is my fault, but my sister isn't able to accept that. They don't know the meaining of the word support (Well, the oldest knows what it means when preceeded by the word child, but that's his story, not mine.) So, now she's upset by that, and I can't help her there, because I'm the one she's trying to help. I won't bash my bros, I love them just the way they are.<P>Your children, in all honesty, will feel at home wherever they feel loved and appreciated. That is what home is. Sanctuary. Now, a D will threaten that, but it is equal on both sides. What makes my sons UNcomfortable is my inability to 'get over it' as quickly as Teri (who's fooling who here, anyway?), and her ability to invalidate the entire marriage in a second. She forgot that THEY KNOW THAT THEY ARE A PRODUCT OF THAT MARRIAGE. How do you suppose that makes THEM feel? Like [censored], that how they feel. I told them to read the Bible, they are legitimate children of God, born in a marriage with love, and she can't change that no matter how hard she tries. Sam is finally asleep, and I am looking at an angel right now. The poor boy, he is so hurt by this. I love him so much, you know how much, don't you, Nicole? That is exactly why your kids already 'raise you up'...did you hear what they said about the bunk beds...really hear it? Out of the mouths of babes...and into the ears of us...(Your H, and my XW, too.)<P>While I don't think God usually intervenes, He does provide the means by which His work is done. He won't hit your H, or my XW in the head with a hammer (what if we asked REAL NICE...?), but He will provide them 'the view' if they will see it. They have to open their eyes, though. IF THEY are the spiritual people they claim to be, all is well...all in His time. If not, well...God will release us from the bond. It says in the Bible (forget where...New Testament....one of Paul's letters...he wrote so many!) that if the Unbeliever divorces the Believer, then the Believer is released, but not the Unbeliever. Makes sense to me. There is a lot to Buddism that I like. I take a little here, a little there, etc. When I pray for that, I ask for the gift of instant perspective and objectivity. What has intrigued me in examining various belief systems is that they are fundamentally the same at the core. Teri never wanted to explore other religions with me. She was raised Catholic, never questioned it, except when it meant that she'd get what she wanted, and never looked for the deeper meaning. (I'm the one who isn't spiritual...WHAT?) Oh well, that is her way, not mine, and I don't mind that. She does, apparently, but I think that is her alien speaking there. The one that insists that her OM has it together. The Saturday before the D he bought a new motorcycle...made a big deal about it. He was taking it home, and 'laid it down'. I'm sorry about that...at the time he was still my friend because they were at the EA stage, and I really thought she'd wait, and be respectable, like she told our Priest. I was also assured by all of my friends that HE WASN'T interested. Lies, all! In fact, PA probably DID start during the marriage, but that point is moot to me now. They are not winning friends and influencing people. I want to go to the lounge to get a 'report' on how people are taking this. I do know that EVERYONE that I meet thinks its deplorable. Too bad that's NOT what I am looking for, but you know it IS validation of sorts, and I seem to take what I can get now.<BR>Okay, I gotta run, work for a few hours, and sleep. I'm going to go fishing with S3 and S4, and my 8 year old niece wants to come stay at her uncle's house. (and yes, it is the daughter of my XSIL, who is a very dear friend of mine.) I count 2 out of 8, and one is Teri...guess who the other is? Everyone else wonders what is up with her.<P>Oh...etiquette to shopping...get some perspective in that one. I know your frustration, kids smell fear and such like dogs do. Its quite Pavlovian, actually...and what's up with putting the candy at the checkout counter? Are they sadists, or what? Honestly, people don't understand NO MONEY anymore than they understand NO by itself! I've seen the entire gamut of shopping angst, and I've even called a couple of people out for going over the line in public with the kids. It's a pain, and a chore, but...THERE IS A LINE THERE. In the 80s, people put their kids on leashes in CA, where I lived at the time. HUH?<P>FINALLY...c'est la vie? Maybe...c'est la guerre? Definitely. See you in the trenches, keep your head up, but not too high, you might get shot! Peace be with you, Nicole.

Such wit... thanks. Paid the mortgage company today... what did you do? Yeah, I'm thinking about what S1 said... and told H about it. He just kind of sadly smirked.<P>My best friend IM'd with my H yesterday and called me this morning all concerned... saying he's in a really deep dark and bad place at the moment and needs help outside of himself. He won't go get it... doesn't believe in it... so walk, walk in the dark night of your soul alone,... just come out of there will ya?<P>So, I press on, encouraging him, praising him and just trying to look to the future ya know? <P>Take care.<P>------------------<BR><I>As iron sharpens iron, so does one wo/man sharpen another...</I> Prov 27:17

Looks like the move is on, then? That's good, as difficult as it will be for you, it will be more difficult for him.<P>Saturday, I got my books from Restore Ministries, and have tried to read them, but it is hard to find time here. Two sons were at XW's, and one was camping with a friend, but S1 was here (Hasn't really left to be with her, except two nights two weeks ago.), and he can take up a lot of all kinds of space! There is a lot of strength/help in those books for me, and I got a set of tapes of the Bible, which I never wanted, but am glad I have <P>Friday night, I went out to see what the word was, and it is not good. My friends that own the restaurant/bar are tiring of her, and her friends. They say that they both seem a little crazy. I'm not sure how to take that one, either. I am not going to engage in that anymore, it doesn't even help to bash them anymore.<P>My priest had advised me to pray for her happiness, and I was not able to do that. It seems to me that I wanted her to be happy here, or unhappy elsewhere, but I was praying for her to be happy here, and that is simply not doable right now. So....<P>Today is another exchange, but it will happen by them walking up here, and she will be at work. I had wanted Mondays to be her day, and this is the first of mine, so I guess I'm getting what I wanted. (On Mondays, they come here because she works all day. Selfish of me, I know, but....)<P>I got some painting done this weekend, and some cleaning, but it still looks like a tornado went through here, and a yard sale exploded in the living room. I don't have two sticks of matching furniture, and there is a table saw in my living room! Next, I need to finish the floor, and paint the ceiling. (Sure wish I had decided to paint the ceiling FIRST!) It is going to be nice to have a real living room. I want to get some more money coming in so I can finish things up, that is a big issue for her...me finishing projects. (Okay, for me, too!)<P>Anyway, I thought I had better let you know some things, I just haven't been able to spend as much time here, and I stuck my nose into some other threads (BIG MISTAKE!), which took some time, but I am here now <P>Have a good day, I think things are looking up with this new house! Take care, I'm praying.<BR> -Mike

Hi Mike... Sounds like you're starting to really dwell on your XW. I know it would be hard NOT to do. But, TRY as you might to do things around the house ONLY for you. You still seem to be trying to please her. It's got to be so tough. Also, a word of caution... I know that your friends who own the restaurant/bar are getting tired of her...but what they might be saying is that they're tired of talking about her. So, if you don't want them to tire of you, be careful to not talk about her as your main subject. You don't want them to jump ship as your friends and see you coming and groan... I hope that doesn't happen but it might especially since you say you don't have too many people to talk to about this.<P>Sounds like you need to establish boundaries with your wife. If she's meant to have the kids, she should have the kids... or if she's not getting the kids as you had expected, than why should you be paying for this.<P>Mike, continue working on yourself FOR yourself. You will live and love again. I know that you want it to be her and I hope it's her as well. But, if you work on you and build your self-esteem she will turn her head. Be the person God wants you to be. I hear your priest when he says pray for her happiness. I'm not one to pray for that as happiness is a result of inner peace. But, I would pray for her inner peace that she would find her place in HIM/God. And I pray for your boys... especially S1. I hope all is well!<P>Again, my usual disclaimer, I'm preaching to myself here also. Yes, it looks like we're going to move. The house will close after the 20th of July. I hope this works as well as it can! It's good to put my kids first and my H first instead of my own needs. Take care! Gotta run! Have a good day!<P>------------------<BR><I>As iron sharpens iron, so does one wo/man sharpen another...</I> Prov 27:17

Mike? and so? Wha'sup?

Good morning. Things are okay, I suppose. I am feeling good enough, but things in most areas are not progressing as I'd like. Starting to dwell on her? Starting to? S---okay. Yes, OBSESS is more like it, but I am merely missing her, and trying to make the part of me that she was grow on its own. Its tough, because the part that I am is suffering, too. I need to get working, and get my income stabilized. Enough schizophrenic babbling. Its tough, I feel split in two, and I want it fixed yesterday. I am synthesizing patience for it all these days, what else can I do?<P>You know, they brought it all up, not me. When I went there, a guy I know was all over me, saying now I knew how they felt (strange, neither one of them is divorced, and the situations are not even similar, but try telling him that.), blah-blah-blah. All I wanted was a beer, I wasn't looking for that. No, the people that I am referring to aren't tired of it, but I sure am. So is Teri, but not in the same way at all. It is not good for me to talk about her/him, and I am not interested in what they do, or where they go, or what they say. My imagination has already done the worst, some of it I now have knowledge of, and it is the type of thing that you hate yourself for being right about, so out it goes. There is a bit of wisdom I have taken from this: Attempts to manipulate the feelings of others will always fail, and in the most miserable fashion. At the very worst, you will succeed, but what will that have gained you?<P>Yeterday, I 'noticed' her car in the driveway, and S1's girlfriend was looking around for something. S1 had borrowed Teri's hair dryer, and she had come to retrieve it. I went out, and apologized for the confusion about the exchange, we both stated that it needs to get better. I said, your phone number is xxx-xxxx. She said yes. I replied, No, I was telling you because you didn't tell me, and I thought you didn't know. Okay, YES that was loaded for bear, I admit that, but she sheepishly tried to begin to {something...I quit assuming long ago.}, and I relented. All I wanted to do was say, I'm hurt that you didn't give me your number. That having been said, I said, Thank you for taking care of me for 18 years. She didn't know what to do with that at all. I was a little embarrassed for her, but I knew that I had to tell her that. There are some more things to say, and I'm not sure how to do it, or how she will take it. I am through trying to make her respond, she just isn't going to do that. I sure wish she had been able to be honest, and end it with some honor, and dignity, but that didn't happen. I forgive her for that. I forgive the other man, too, although I can't bear to be his friend any longer.<P>S1 and I talked at length last night about our home here. He has made it apparent that he will be here most of the time, and I told him that his friends were coming over too much, and he needed to spend time with his girlfriend, and get a job, etc. It went very well, and I am pleased with him. I just wish he did not have those !@#$ dreadlocks, honestly! We are not in Jamaica, and they are not my idea of attractive. 'Nuff said!<P>Today, I am going to make some tables for the living room. Its painted, except for last coats on trim, and I put a border at the top on two walls. They are maroon and the accent color is forest green. Not so much a choice of mine, as the only color paint I had, but I like it a lot! I might try to get the green going some more. This morning, it occurred to me to use forest green matboard in some picture frames, what do you think of that idea? Doable, or dorky? You must be excited at the possibility of doing your new home(s?). No, I mean you MUST be, Nicole! Its not a choice! LOL.<P>I had wanted to reply earlier, but not much has happened, except that I got my materials from Restore Ministries, which is good, since I had wanted them in April, while I was still married, but I managed to bungle getting them until last week. Oh well, God is still playing by the same rules now as he was then, right? I am very pleased with the books, and they make good sense to me, too. Plus, I got a new KJV Bible, which is nice, although a different read than my NAB. It also had a set of cassette tapes, but they are garbage basically, and my truck ate Genesis, how about that! I saved it before it was too late, but I KNEW it was going to happen! CDs would have been better, and cheaper, but...no, I will tell them that. What am I saying? See how I do it? Later, I will be angry about that, and if I don't tell THEM about it, where will that anger go? I will tell them that their book sent me to them! Yes, that IS better.<P>Well, Nicole, its 10:00 AM, and the kids are going to be here at noon (I THINK!). Time to get ready. Take care, and let me know when you are moving in, etc. God bless. Prayers continue.

Hi Mike...<P>I just got back from facilitating a conference in LA this morning (took the red-eye flight last night) Anyway, my kids are just not happy with my traveling... though I don't do it all that much, well, this month I was gone for two weeks so that is a bit much. I just see things slowing down and with the purchase of the house, I'm getting nervous about expenses coming up, ya know? I'm a bit like you in that I look for work and free-lance. <P>So, I like the green-mated picture frame idea. I'm having trouble picturing the wall, so it's painted marooned with how many inches of forest green trim at the top? And is that painted or wall-paper trim? <P>Interesting way you expressed your "hurt" with your wife. I did the same today and tried a different approach... wanna hear it? Hear goes - whether you want to or not. I'm happy because it is a start. I get in this morning to O'Hare about an hour late... my shuttle service "lost" my reservation so I'm thinking I have to take a cab. In LA - it cost me $80 to take a cab to the hotel where I was staying... not good. So I was wary... I called my H, who was in the car dropping the kids off at some friends. I don't know what I expected, I just thought he might be willing to swing by and pick me up and drop me at home. I know that was a reach... he asked me, "What do you want me to do? Can't you take a cab and charge it off?" Well, yes, I can and in fact, that's what I did. But, I was hurt. I felt rejected again... I just have needs of him that he can't keep. He places boundaries on himself that I can't seem to pass and that's hurtful for me... but then, I think more about it and realize that he has sacrificed this week with coordinating his schedule for the kids so that I could work... well, he wants 50% custody, he'd better get used to this. I'm rambling...<P>Anyway, so tonight he brings it up (just to check the temperature on my feelings on it) and I calmly tell him that I was a little hurt but got over it recognizing his limitations. I just said that I am realizing how "alone" I am in this process. In the past, I would have made him pay by giving the cold shoulder or snipping at him about other things. This way, I felt I addressed the <B>issue</B> and not him in a healthy way. He was a little defensive. I then thanked him for caring for our boys and that I'm aware of his sacrifice at work. He just looked at me and said, "Now where did that 180 come from you just insinuated lack of support." Poor guy... it was hard for him to take that because in the past, I would have gotten upset about his "lack" of understanding... but this time, I understood him, just wanted him to know how I was feeling. Perhaps I'll evolve into dealing with everything on my own without even having to share my process with him - to spare him the uncomfort of not "living up to my expectations." This is/has been the key problem I think in our marriage. He has said over and over, "I just cannot meet your needs." Therefore, he rejects me. <P>Oh well, hey, I want to apologize for my caution above about "obsessing" about your wife. That was unfair and it may have made you feel you can't be honest. This is what this board is for,... to pour over all the feelings, the good, bad and ugly. So, please feel free to be honest and obsess if that's what you need to do. It was unfair of me to place any kind of judgement upon you. Will you forgive my insensitivity?<P>Anyway, it's late now and I'm tired... I must get some sleep. I'm not going to re-read this so my thoughts may be scrambled a bit... - - <P>Take care!<P><P>------------------<BR><I>As iron sharpens iron, so does one wo/man sharpen another...</I> Prov 27:17

Man, Nicole, that was impressive! Yes, I'd say that your plan is excellent. Watch his curiousity rise as you go dark in those areas. One thing I have noticed...we want it like it was when the problems weren't there (although, I'd take last summer...close enough!), they want us to remain attached, but still be 'cool' about things! How very realistic!<P>Okay, yes...the wall. It is a paper border, but it is more of an antique white marbled strip, with two quarter inch stripes, top and bottom, maroon on top/bottom, forest green in the middle. Standard Lowe's fair...which IS JUST SAD....I like Lowe's, but their wallpaper...yuck! Menard's it where I will go for wallpaper next. I regretted the color choice after one gallon, and it still looked pink! So, I bought another gallon, and now it is maroon, and it looks good.<P>I have a friend (actually, OM's nephew....weird, but he's too good a friend to give up, and he hates his uncle for this...eeeewwww.) who brings me free wood from cast offs at a limber mill. I have lots of walnut, and red oak. Next ,we are getting cherry. I have an 'interesting' table out of a 'chunk' of walnut, and it is nice. It fits in with my 'almost' rustic theme well. I am anxious to have matching furniture for a change...we never got anything good because of 'the kids'. How stupid was that? Oh well, we are righting a lot of wrongs these days. S3 actually worked today and I never told him to do anything! He also sprang for some pop, and milk....shocking, I didn't even know he knew we needed milk!<P>I also worked on this telescope I am building for us today. Looks like tonight, we will be able to use it. S3 and S4 really enjoy it for a while (its a really simple scope). S1 likes it, too, but don't tell anyone, its not cool. S2 is S2, he is up for anything....wait a minute...they actually have names, we didn't forget everything! S1-Aaron...S2-Garrett...S3-Spencer...S4-Samuel...there, you have been properly introduced.<P>So, you are a facilitator? I think you will be able to establish enough clientele in Chicagoland, Milwaukee, etc. Travel might just be a by-product of the move right now...those roots will help all over, I think. Hey, why not come west about 150 miles, and work in Moline, or Rock Island? Davenport, Bettendorf...I can see almost all of them from here, and you'd get a chance to laugh at the walls, trash can deck, and telescope pier. Wait a minute, no....strike that....don't have chairs enough yet!<P>Let's see, what else? Oh, yes...the dog's in heat...great! I guess I might not have mentioned that I also have a dog, and FOUR cats...man, I can really dislike cats, they remind me of....never mind.<P>No, I wasn't offended...I do obsess about my XW. I find it difficult not to. I find it hard to accept that she doesn't do the same thing. Then, at that point, I leave it, and try to be quiet inside, which is damned near impossible for me: my self-dialogue never stops. I have even 'noticed' it going when I've woken up....weird, but that's the way I am. I have been able to avoid the trap of checking up on her too much, and I am getting better about not talking so much about her/him. I have found the most difficult challenge telling my children not to talk about OM so negatively, I share their disgust of him, and what he has done/continues to do. I am TRYING to forgive him, he is the harder of the two to justify forgiveness for. I suppose that, ultimately, if God can, I'll give it my best shot. Time will help, I think. Yesterday, I actually read from the Bible to them about it. and asked them to have faith that our lives would be restored. I kept the marriage out of it, since it is not even time to think about reconciliation now. We are slowly putting together the house, it will take some months to get it right. It would be nice to get it more workable before school starts, a job would help. When I asked them what they wanted me to do, they said just get a job you like, and we will help. I couldn't have written a better response, and they were a very united front about it...leads me to believe that they had their own little family meeting....WOW!<p>[This message has been edited by waiting_for_her (edited June 30, 2001).]

Wow, your kids sound so incredibly supportive. It's like the "issue" is out there on the table and the five of you are rallying around trying to figure it out and how best to move ahead. Your emotional and spiritual health towards your wife will pay off and be fruitful in the end.<P>So, you're out near the Quad cities, eh? <P>Your being so productive around the house is good and will help you feel a sense of accomplishment no? Glad you said what you said about good things for the kids... I was going to go garage sale-ing for furniture today! I still might as if one is patient, and can weed thru things, there are a few treasures to be found!<P>Anyway, have a great weekend! Cheers!<P>------------------<BR><I>As iron sharpens iron, so does one wo/man sharpen another...</I> Prov 27:17

Hey. I liked your thread you started, you are getting some good insights, and it is helpful to me, too. H might need to see what this looks like from the other side, too, Nicole. I can see that it is not sitting well with Teri, she is looking pretty careworn these days. Sunday was fairly cathartic for me, I am fully detatched now, and I am gaining ground back. She is admitting that she needs to do this better. She seems quite contrite; its strange. Like I said, I don't know what to make of it.<P>I am going to put a picture of the living room on my website, I'm afraid I have completely botched my description! I am going to try to procure the tools for making my green matboards, there is a razor knife that makes it 'Mike proof' at [censored] Blick, I think. Anyway, I'll post a link to it when the gremlins cooperate!<P>I have much work to do. I am still trying to get this work at home programmer thing off the ground. I really admire your ability to do that type of thing, I am a real flake when it comes to selling myself that way. I couldn't sell a space heater to an eskimo...but I could build one out of matchsticks, a Bic lighter, and duct tape!<P>Take care, Nicole, come out to the boonies and visit sometime when you need to get away.<BR>God bless. -Mike<p>[This message has been edited by waiting_for_her (edited July 04, 2001).]

Hi Mike,<P>Just wanted to check in with ya... saw you said hi to me on the "i will change" thread and didn't want to muddy up his waters... so I'm here instead. <P>So.... HI! <P>~Sheryl