It the vast majority of cases of betrayal in a long-term marriage, the betrayer is suffering from depression. It is impossible to "meet the needs" of someone who is clinically depressed. Betrayal occurs in all sorts of marriages - good, bad, and average. Betrayal is often an attempt to self-treat for depression, which is often precipitated by some crisis that is completely unrelated to the marriage, such as the death of the betrayer's parents or a business failure.

Ooh! Nellie. You struck a nerve. I am starting to see this about my H. (See my post "How do I stop this thinking".). Tremendous stress & anger pushed inward. I was mistakenly trying to bear the load for him as much as I could. It lead to more conflict between us (a war zone of cursing & screaming). <P>I told him in February I didnt want to hear it anymore & so he started venting to someone else (female coworker). Our marriage has been totally downhill ever since. My reaction to his outbursts was more outbursts. I did not realize my impact on his behaviour. If I had known, I couldve mentioned seeking counseling or reading books when he wouldve been open to it. Not anymore! If I had been able to detach from the anger & learn the right questions to ask him, it would be different. But his choice to become increasingly dependant on talking to that coworker outside of our marriage was his, not mine. I have not retaliated by doing the same! I want to work on fixing this. <P>I browsed a good book "Emotionally Free" by David Viscott MD. One chapter discussed reactions to internalized stress as an introduction to depression. It described my H 1000%. That this person tries to cope by doing hobbies, or exercise (!) thinking it will take their mind off things. Eventually they find themself in an affair. (not sure how much of an EA in my case). Their thinking becomes distorted. They dont see this as wrong. The rationale then turns to needing time to be separate & think things out. OOOH! 100%. But my H cant see that he is depressed at all & I didnt see the solution in the book. Ill have to go back for another look. Depression has a physical response in the body which in turn does alter mental perceptions.<BR>I am not saying it is like this for everyone. But in my case OH YEAH! If only I could figure out. . now what??

David Viscott is excellent!!<P>Nellie has hit on something VERY important, although she and I have disagreed on this aspect for a long time ~ only because I hate the excuse "I was ill, I couldn't help it"... sometimes, I suppose, it is a viable excuse/reason. I think it's used waaaay more than necessary though. <P>My ex was ALWAYS DEPRESSED (non-diagnose, non-medicated) and I was ALWAYS DESPRESSED (diagnosed and medicated)... and in both cases, it was NOT depression that led to affair(s). I simply REFUSE to believe that!!<P>But, of course, I could be wrong. Wouldn't be the first time.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> I browsed a good book "Emotionally Free" by David Viscott MD. One chapter discussed reactions to internalized stress as an introduction to depression. It described my H 1000%. That this person tries to cope by doing hobbies, or exercise (!) thinking it will take their mind off things. Eventually they find themself in an affair. (not sure how much of an EA in my case). Their thinking becomes distorted. They dont see this as wrong. The rationale then turns to needing time to be separate & think things out. OOOH! 100%. But my H cant see that he is depressed at all & I didnt see the solution in the book. Ill have to go back for another look. Depression has a physical response in the body which in turn does alter mental perceptions.<BR><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P><B> BINGO for my X! </B> but see can't see it, and its hereditary, and learned from her family of origin! (her mother!)<P>crap! i knew i shouldn't have married her because of this!<P>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by WilliamJ:<BR><B>If we don't own some responciblity in the creating of a situation in wich a spouce <I>could</I> stray, then we are being entirely self-centered and not looking with ourselves hard enough...BS's are far from blameless...No one will convince me differently...If we are so <I>great</I> then we wouldn't even be here...</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Very true. And I don't think there are very many BS here who AREN'T owning "some responsibility" in the downfall of their marriage. I have stated here and many other times, I was FAR from blameless. I didn't do such a "great" job on my marriage. My blame, however, is for the downfall of the marriage, NOT in "driving" my H to an affair. I think it's virtually impossible to MAKE someone else do something.<P>To me it is, and always will be, two separate issues. Just because they happen to the same two people, just because they happen so closely together, just because most people want to find some excuse for their choices, doesn't mean that one leads to the other.<P>I don't know why everyone is so afraid to see them as two issues...is it because by identifying them this way, they think that we WON'T take responsibility to our part in the marriage problems? I don't know.....<P>Just answer me this: If not meeting your spouse's needs and making them feel unloved (or whatever) is the REASON they have an affair, why doesn't it ALWAYS happen? How is it that some people in those exact situations DON'T have affairs? <P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by sad_n_lonely:<BR><B>Those BS who say they never would choose an affair are simply saying the benefits to them of remaining faithful exceed the benefits they "percieve" in not being faithful. The moment that internal assessment changes they will wander too, unless they are not human that is. </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Again, I disagree. You may call it pride or whatever, but because I know Who I follow and decided long ago to try to make choices that He desires for me, when I find myself in a situation of temptation or whatever, I don't have to wonder what's right and what's wrong. I have already determined in my heart and with the Grace of God, I am able to make the right choice. Yes, we are human. But my God came to give me the power and strength...IF I APPLY IT....to choose NOT to sin. That isn't pride. That's a fact. I don't see a whole lot of benefit from being a Christian unless it has REAL power to handle REAL problems/situations. I don't really give a rip about heaven (although it's nice); I want it to be real now! My "boast" about not choosing adultry isn't because I'm so good or righteous or because I haven't been presented by a situation that, if I did, might prove to be more advantageous to me. It's because God has given me the strength, REGARDLESS of the situation, to do the right thing. <P>Your assumption that a BS has never been faced with that choice or the temptation to have an affair is false. And just because I choose NOT to do that, doesn't mean that I am without sin or that my motive is to be morally superior. My motive is to follow God. I'm not the one making a moral judgment, GOD is the one who said "Wait upon the Lord, and keep his way; and you will be lifted up, and have the land for your heritage: when the evil-doers are cut off, you will see it." (Psalms 37:34)<P>We ALL have seen it...<P>Aloha,<BR>Mrs.O<BR>

Mrs. O, <P>While I respect you immensely, I am concerned when you say: <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I don't see a whole lot of benefit from being a Christian unless it has REAL power to handle REAL problems/situations. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>So, if a Christian sins, has he/she not been given the "REAL" power? I don't see this. There are churches full of HUMANS and even Jesus says that "all have sinned"...

Yes, we've ALL been given the real power if we confess Christ as our Lord. We just need to apply it...appropriate it to our lives and situations. Sometimes we do and sometimes we don't. When we don't, we are prone to sin.<P>And yes, we are all sinners. But if Christianity is only about getting to heaven, then what good is it now? What I was trying to say is that it's NOT just about heaven, or the sweet by-and-by. It actually DOES have a benefit now and that's the power over sin <I>offered</I> to us by the Lord. We have to take it and use it.<P>Why would the Bible say "be ye perfect" if it's not possible? If Christ was FULLY HUMAN and DIDN'T SIN, then it was because HE appropriated the power that God offered Him to his situation and temptations. He had the choice to sin, just like we do. He didn't have some special "force field" around him that wouldn't ALLOW him to sin. He was born with a free will, just like we were, yet He CHOOSE not to sin by applying God's power to His life.<P>Yes, our churches are full of very HUMAN beings, alot of who just wallow (unconsciously) in their humanness and think that they are "just sinners" and they can't really do anything about their behaviours, drives, desires, etc. Well, while we are sinners, "...the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death." <P>Why would it say that if we really DON'T have the ability to be FREE FROM THE LAW OF SIN (thru Christ's power in our lives)?<P>I don't know if that makes sense, but that's what I believe.<P>Aloha,<BR>Mrs.O<P><p>[This message has been edited by Mrs.O (edited May 31, 2001).]

Mrs. O,<P>I don't think there is joint responsibility for the affair. Not at all. What I meant is that perhaps counselers encourage the BS to take joint responsibility in order to facilitate recovery. It then changes the problem from "his" or "hers" to "ours" and joint ownership would perhaps help in rebuilding the marriage. What I'm saying is that perhaps it is just a tool that is used by therapist, irregardless of whether or not he BS is actually in any way responsible (which I don't believe).<P>JAL

Mrs. O,<P>Yes, you are making your point clear, and it does make sense... but... I think there is a danger in believing "it would never happen to me"... and you have basically said that with God's power, it (infidelity, in particular) will never occur.<P>I am a Christian, and I remember wondering how my then-H could cheat over and over and still claim to be a Christian. I also have a friend, a *very strong* Christian woman, who found herself on the cheating end of someone else's marriage. I gave her hell on earth for that, as a wife who's H had cheated. I stood on my pedistal and proclaimed, "I would NEVER do that" and four years later, guess where I found myself? <P>I had to climb down, ask God and my then-H to forgive me, look in the mirror, and find some kind of forgiveness myself. <P>God IS awesome, make no mistake about my feeling for Him (as I understand Him) ~ but, we are ONLY human... and we fail... sometimes when we least expect it.

In an earlier reply to my response, the question was raised if I communicated to my ex about how I wished for my needs to be met.<P>Yes, I did several times. I asked for him to compliment me or tell me when something was good. I asked for him to take vacations together. He had no desire to see other parts of the country. <P>I wanted to feel loved and cherished. To him, if he fixed my car or helped pay the bills, then he was showing that he loved and cherished me. Did fixing the car make me feel loved and cherished? Hardly NOT.<P>Did calling me dumb and stupid because I couldn't understand what was happening to the car, make me feel loved and cherished? I don't think so!<P>What about "You may be smart and have a college degree but you have no common sense?" Is that a statement that would make you love him all over. I think that statement was the eye opener. He resented me because I had more education so he had to take his frustrations out on me. I told him this.<P>As I told him each time that he had hurt me with his statements. His older sister even said that he talked so mean to me. Did it sink in? NO<P>But his smart mouth got him in trouble with other people when he used his Napoleonic complex (He's short about 5'7.) <BR>For instance, he had to go to the hospital for one of those painful tests on his colon (I can't spell the name.) This was two months before we separated. I had to stay home from work to drive him home.<P>As he came out of the recover room, the nurse looked at me and remarked, "You must be named St. Martha for being married to him!" I imagine he said plenty under the influence.<P>Although, this may give you a clue as to why I withdrew. I felt that I couldn't please him. He tells everyone else it was all his fault even when they tell him I felt that I had contributed to the breakup too.<P>Martha

Martha,<P>Was your H's infidelity and abandonment perhaps just the final wrong in a string of wrongs and abuses? Perhaps it was just his ultimate and final blow? I think you are getting close (maybe, who knows just from posts) because you are talking about his resentment of you and his own insecurities which he directed toward you. This clearly says this was about HIM and not YOU. He probably loved and hated you for the same reasons? This person hurt you for a very, very long time. Are you now ready to stop letting him hurt you?<P>JAL

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Nyneve:<BR><B>I stood on my pedistal and proclaimed, "I would NEVER do that" and four years later, guess where I found myself? </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I understand and am not saying it would NEVER be POSSIBLE for that to happen to me. I am human too. I also DO NOT feel that I'm standing on a pedistal proclaiming that.<P>The way I feel in my heart is, that I'm kneeling at the foot of the cross and asking God to protect me from that and that if I'm ever faced with the temptation to work His power and will in my life and to give me the strength to walk away. And I TRULY believe HE can both protect me and give me the strength to resist. The question is...would I take it? I pray, hope and believe that my answer would be "yes." I can say that without being prideful.<P>If somewhere, sometime, someone wants to give me one million dollars (no strings attached), I can tell you right now...I have determined ahead of time....that I would say "yes." I don't have to WAIT until the situation happens to deliberate what the merits of taking it are. I KNOW NOW. I would take it. I can be pretty darn positive about that.<P><B>God IS awesome, make no mistake about my feeling for Him (as I understand Him) ~ but, we are ONLY human... and we fail... sometimes when we least expect it.</B><P>I totally understand. And again, I'm not saying it is impossible for me to fail. There is a fine line between what I'm saying and how it's coming across. I have determined in my heart not to commit adultry. But I don't KNOW 100% FOR SURE if I will end up being like Joseph who fled from Potipher's wife or like David who allowed himself to be deceived, little by little and totally messed up with Bathsheba, not only committing adultry, but murder as well to cover it up. <P>In Psalms 51, David's heart-wrenching cry of repentance includes a prayer for a new and clean heart and a new spirit of steadfastness. So if God give us a steadfast spirit, why can't we say "thank you God for giving me Your strength to overcome sin"? Why can't we walk forward with the full intent and belief that we will not sin? I don't think that is being prideful....I think that is being "faithful!"<P>Anyway, we're probably describing two sides of the same con anyway. We will of course all see things differently than each other. But the discussion is good.<P>Aloha,<BR>Mrs.O<P>

Another question...<P>Does it really matter how many ways we can split this hair???<P>Does trying to define a particular point make it all better??<P>Does placing blame really matter all that much??<P>Am I so self-centered and self-righteous I am blameless??<P>Give me a frikkin break!!<P>I'm sorry but the only thing that puts all of the blame on a WS is the case of the sex-addict and the addictic or alcoholic...I don't buy the MLC or depression bit...<P>If your ex strayed and wasn't suffering from the disease of addiction then you have to own some responciblity for creating a situation...period!!!<P>If you still haven't realised there was something missing then get off your ego-centric high horse, humble yourself and do some honest soul searching...<P>And yes obviously the WS is ultimately responcible for cheating...And I remit...If things were so great, my [censored] wouldn't be here having this debate....If you can't see this then you are doomed to have history repeat it itself...<P>Sorry gang but this is a cold fact and if you don't like it just look at the evidence...It is plain to me...<P>Getting honest with ones self is a very difficult task...Believe me I know!!<BR>

Amen to Bill! <P>We all have our faults... Things happen that we cannot change.. We can only change ourselves... But when the vows are made... We take responsibility for what we say. There is NO REASON for either party to stray. Just excuses!

Yes, <B>Bill</B>, EXCELLENT post!!

Boy, I've been waffling about responding to this topic. I think CJ's post way back on page one just about said it perfectly.<P>I only slightly disagree with WilliamJ - but he's right on target!! My husband is an alcoholic. I still feel that I share some of the responsiblity in his affair - not in his choice to have the affair, or his choices to continue to drink, that have led to our divorce, but I did participate in hurting him and neglecting his legitimate needs. Most of it I did because I didn't know any better - not out of genuine neglect - and once I knew better, I did better, but still....<P>If I don't own my part in the destruction of our marriage...then I won't ever learn how to change my own behavior, and then I will simply go on to do it again in my next relationship.<P><P>------------------<BR><I>Pain is a given, misery is optional.</I>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BrambleRose:<BR><B>I only slightly disagree with WilliamJ...<P>If I don't own my part in the destruction of our marriage..<BR></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>You agree 100% with WilliamJ (and me, I might add) because BOTH of us say that we have our part in the destruction of our <B>marriage</B>/s, not the affair.<P>This is the hair that keeps getting split!<P>We ALL have a part in the downfall of the marriage - <B>NOT THE AFFAIR</B>. How many different ways can this be said!!<BR><P>------------------<BR>~Sheryl<P>And we know. We who have seen. ~Pellegrino

By the way,<B> BR</B>, I hope you don't mind my putting words in your mouth... you know how much I appreciate and respect you... sorry... I do see you as agreeing {in principle} with Bill and with me. Tell me if I'm wrong...

I think the point is that whether or not the marriage was perfect, and no marriages, and no marriage partners are, most likely had ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with the affair. Betrayers are looking to fill a void in themselves, to attempt to combat depression and problems in their self-esteem, problems that are biochemical in nature and/or rooted in childhood. <P>My H suffered from undiagnosed depression as long as I have known him. Shortly before the affair began, he admitted that he had lost interest in all activities that had been important to him. For months he had virtually NO interest in going anywhere or doing anything. A few months before my relative's murder, he had bought a canoe, and was looking forward to summer to use it. Summer came and he did not use it once. I will never forget the way he looked sitting slumped over staring at nothing, in utter dejection. I got him to go to a doctor, but the depression was not addressed. At some point he had come up with a specific place and method of committing suicide. This is NOT merely a matter of unmet needs. WilliamJ may not "buy" depression, but I do not buy the "unmet needs" hypothesis. <P>Any statements of the "setting the stage for the affair" or "creating the situation that lead to the affair" are not correct, because the perfection or lack thereof of the BS is a completely separate issue. It makes no more sense to accuse the BS of creating a situation that lead to an affair than it would to accuse them of setting the stage that lead to their spouse's alcohol or drug addiction. The BS could be a saint and in the vast majority of cases she/he would still end up here.

Nellie,<P>Your situation, though not unique, is not the norm.<P>I completely believe that in MOST cases, the BS has a part in setting the stage... not ALL cases.