Sheryl,<P>I think that my situation is the norm, especially for affairs that occur after long-term marriages, and there is a body of research to back this up. For example, one psychiatrist was recently quoted in the NY Times as saying that when men suddenly leave their long-term wife for an OW, almost all of the men are suffering from depression.

Nellie,<P>I find that so interesting. <P>...sigh... <P>I guess the same could be said for me then, ya know. In a long term marriage... mid-life crisis... depression. All I know is that despite my depression (which as diagnosed as clinical) I **knew** somewhere in my head what I was doing. I am not so sure about your H, from what you write. Do you think he knew, way back in his head somewhere?<P>I truly believe you when you say your H's admission (or sudden moving out) came out of the blue... that he was clinically depressed -- very, very depressed... I've read you for far too long (and you never deviate from your truth). <P>But what does that mean? Who takes responsibility in this kind of situation? If this is true, then you are TRULY in a kind of limbo that is impossible to escape from. <P>I understand why you say it's the norm... but... still find it hard to believe.<P>Thanks for helping me to understand.

Many perspectives and person point of views...<P>Well...one point of view that I must put forth is the perspective of couples that have been rocked by the earthquake of what an EA does to their relationship and...are not on this site and have made it back...found the path to keep their marriage together and really both look in the mirror at themselves than their partner and are now moving forward in a happier partnership....those couples that I personally talked to, e-mailed and talked with via phone all told me that at the end of the day all the stuff we are all discussing here is not the important thing!<P>They all truly believe that...<P>#1 Yes the person having the affair must take 100% for their actions.<P>#2 That in the human condition, we all have strenghts and weaknesses and that the partner having the affiar is not automatically a defective person and forgiveness has to be worked on each and every day.<P>#3 That in all cases...as far as they were concerend the affair was a wake up call for their marriage.<P>#4 That to move ahead and try to repair the damage of the affair and try to rebuild the marriage both partners had to want to want to make it better.<P>#5 That after looking back after they had successfully withstood the earthquake of the affair and rebuilt their partnership and have been on a much happier road...that they can say all of the partnership skills, individual weaknesses, communication problems, intimacy problems, etc. that they both had prior to the affair were the exact same ones they had to look in the mirror, acknowledge and both change and improve to stand any kind of chance to successfully make it to where they are today.<P>As in any endeavor, talking with people that are very successful or have been successful in charting a challenging and/or difficult road...can present another point of view on any situation.<P>Food for thought.<P>MR R

Sheryl,<P>I think my H felt like he had absolutely no control over not only how he was feeling but also how he acted upon it, but I don't think that prevented him from feeling terribly guilty. He said once after he left that he thought he had messed up his life so badly that it could never be fixed. <P>It is terrifying to think that so much of one's actions are not under one's conscious control, but can be a result of biochemical imbalances. I don't believe that responsibility can be assigned in cases like this, and more than it can be assigned when a person comes down with cancer - people who are suffering from clinical depression, especially when it has not been previously diagnosed/treated, are not really in a position to recognize it, and even those who live with them are not generally knowledgeable enough in the field of mental illness to recognize it soon enough, even if they had the ability to convince the depressed person to seek treatment. <BR>

There is no way one can blanket statements about affairs, human behavior is entirely too complex to do that. Hey but if it makes you feel better to take the blame for another's actions than hey have at it. <P>The vow I made to be faithful was not made to spouse but to myself. It is a matter of personal integrity that I remain faithful to that vow. That's how I know I will never have an affair anymore than I would shoot up heroin, have sex with a donkey or commit murder.

AMEN KalGrl!!! My sentiments exactly!!<P>Aloha,<BR>Mrs.O<BR>

All I can say, Mrs. O and Kalgirl, is this:<P>I send you best wishes, peace, and strength to continue your journeys in life...<P>I'd love to see someone who said they'd never do it ~ NEVER DO IT... that's all.<P>Sincerely, and with hope for your continued strength,<P>Sheryl

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Nyneve:<BR><B>I'd love to see someone who said they'd never do it ~ NEVER DO IT... that's all.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>My parents (both 81) live in Oregon. They are a perfect example. They both have said "we'd never do that." And they have kept their word. They've been married for over 53 years and have only been with each other their whole lives.<P>In fact there are millions of couples like that walking the face of the earth today. You just have to look for them.<P>Aloha,<BR>Mrs.O<BR>

How'd I know you'd say something like that, Mrs. O? <P>Of course there are... but consider that at least 50% of couples divorce, many due to infidelity, and of the remaining 50ish% how many have restored marriages that had infidelity in them?<P>See, I am bang-on serious when I say that for 18 years out of my marriage, despite my then-H's cheating, I SWORE it would never happen to me. <P>I sure don't want to argue with you, or Kalgirl, or anyone else about this. <P>I do wish you continued strength... because, like it or not, sometimes, despite our best efforts, beliefs, hopes and dreams, sin comes running up into our lives (or if you don't believe in sin, maybe evil) and we give into it.<P>That's the sad truth for many of us, including me.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Nyneve:<BR><B>How'd I know you'd say something like that, Mrs. O? </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Well, you did ask.....do you want their address? <P><B>I sure don't want to argue with you, or Kalgirl, or anyone else about this. </B><P>Me neither...let's just agree to see things differently....<P><B>...like it or not, sometimes, despite our best efforts, beliefs, hopes and dreams, sin comes running up into our lives (or if you don't believe in sin, maybe evil) and we give into it.</B><P>Yup, believe it or not, I DO KNOW what you are talking about. I think I've sinned once or twice before.....JUST KIDDING!!!!! Only once. OOOOPPSSS!! REALLY just kidding. <P>I AM A SINNER! But by God, I was "buried with Him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so [I] also should walk in newness of life." (Rom 6:4)<P>That's all I'm trying to do. <P>Aloha,<BR>Mrs.O<P><p>[This message has been edited by Mrs.O (edited June 01, 2001).]

Ok, I'm a little late responding again...sorry <B>Sheryl</B>!<P>Let me see if I can be more clear about what I think about this whole mess.<P>I agree with you and CJ and WilliamJ that the BS helps to set the stage. Many times our behaviors enabled the affair to continue. <P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>CJ said</B>: I tended to make my H responsible for "making me happy" and I blamed him when I felt bad, but what I didn't realize was that I was responsible for me. I contributed by letting him continue on with actions and behaviors that were harmful to me and not having him suffer the "natural consequences" of his actions. I contributed by not knowing what my needs were, by not communicating them to him, and by not finding out what his needs are. I added to the demise by having an unforgiving spirit--when he was really sorry for something, I held onto it and held it over his head forever. I was judgemental and critical. But mostly, I was so concentrated on HIS shortcomings that I never looked at myself and became the woman and wife that I had the potential to become.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>This describes me to a T. <P>I also agree that the decision to have the affair is 100% the WS's choice and responsiblity - BUT, to sit around on moral high ground about it is pretty darn judgemental and disrespectful. We as BS's <B>did</B> set the stage and assist in creating the atmosphere. I am uncomfortable with the attitude that the WS is the sole offender in the scenario. <P>I guess my point is...do we as BS want to be victims and martyrs? Or do we want to be mature adults who take responsiblity for our own choices and lives and decisions and actions? Too often I think it becomes easy for us to focus on the WS's faults, and ignore our own.<P>Where I disagree with WilliamJ, and with Nellie is regarding depression and substance abuse.<P>I'll be the first one to agree that alcoholism and other addictions are a disease. I'll also be the first to say that depression and other mental illnesses are also.<P>Under the influence of these diseases, our thinking definitely becomes distorted.<P>Does it relieve the individual from responsiblity for their actions? No way. My H knows what he is doing is wrong, and is doing it anyway. His motivations for continuing his wrong behavior are influenced by his distorted thinking...but he is perfectly capable of deciding to get help. His disease is not his fault or his choice. Getting help for it is. As long as he remains sick, he should be held responsible for his actions. <P>As long as I continue to enable his disease and his actions that result, I am also responsible. Do I force him to make the choices he does? No. But I am still a guilty party when I enable his behavior. I am the BS to an alcoholic WS, and I do not think for a second that I am the innocent victim here. I did participate and I do hold some responsiblity for creating the comfortable environment for the unacceptable behavior.<P>And the same thing goes for depression.<P>Depression is an illness. But in no way do I think it excuses the depressed person from responsiblity for his/her actions. I am sure there are forms of mental illness that does keep someone being responsible, but I don't think depression is one.<P>I am a depression survivor. I spent 2 years clinically suicidally depressed. I didn't kill myself because I was afraid my husband wouldn't take care of my children, and I couldn't hurt them. My children were HORRIBLY neglected while I was depressed. Only by the grace of God are my children here today, healthy in body, and starting slowly to recover mentally. I am absolutely responsible for my neglect of my children during that time. I made choices. Yes those choices were distorted by my mental illness, but I did make choices and I could have chosen to get help, but didn't. My H also bears responsiblity. HE, by his own behavior, set the stage for my depression. Is he responsible for what I did during that depression? NO. But he participated by setting the stage and enabling me to continue to float along comfortably. <P>So anyway, there is my long winded hair splittin response!!! <P>--BR<P>------------------<BR><I>Pain is a given, misery is optional.</I>

<B>OK...for the last frikkin time!! In no way did I say the WS is not the one whom ultimately makes the choice!! I will continue to add this caveat: WE AS BS SPOUCES, BY NOT MEETING CERTAIN EMOTIONAL NEEDS CREATED A SITUATION IN WHICH OUR SPOUCE <I>COULD</I> CHEAT!! This is the area we need to dig deep and get honest about....Where did we as BS's fall short??<P>Please explain to me how this is me as a BS taking all the blame...<P>If you still feel yourself blameless being a BS good luck in the future!<P>Yes I know I am being overly simplistic about this but in my experience this is what I have found not only in my personal life but also my friends that have gone through this...And yes I posted this this way purpose...It is the only way I can put forth my frustration so maybe some one will get it...<P>And if you are the exception to this....give yourself a break, their are exceptions to every rule, however I refuse to believe that so many are exceptions to this rule...<P>This is just my opinion and I only hope those that see themselves as blameless can figure out what they did so they won't repeat the same thing...<P>Much love,<P>Bill</B><p>[This message has been edited by WilliamJ (edited June 01, 2001).]

Easy, Bill! No need to shout! <P>This is an interesting thread, and, indeed, a topic that Dr. Harley words with less sensitivity than I would have expected of him.<P>However, the latest estimates by those in the field of marriage counseling is that upwards of 80% of all marriages have been touched by infidelity. I have to agree that those who say they would never do it and then don't ever do it are in the vast minority, and, if they are still living then they are premature in claiming to be successful.<P>I am probably one of the 'old-timers' here who has stood the longest for my marriage and has not yet recovered or been divorced, and I cannot even say that I have not "done it." Some would say I was justified, I know that I justified it to myself. Only once, and it was well after my husband had moved out - but we were and are still married. I didn't think I would ever "do it" - some say I did NOTHING - but looking at it now, I know that I DID.<P>Mrs. O, I know you truly believe you never would and never will, and you may be 100% correct. But recently I have had the occasion to feel a very strong attraction to a married coworker and at times caught myself in thoughts that essentially were aimed at justifying my own little fantasy. I have worked through that and believe that there is no chance that I would participate in the betrayal of someone else's spouse, but the experience of feeling so strongly for this person and just KNOWING that I MIGHT have been capable of it at that time has been and still is extremely humbling to me.<P>I love my husband. I want my marriage. But I am human and need to recognize that.<P>HOWEVER... I will not be responsible for my husband's choice to have an affair either. But I know that I did not help to make our marriage a place where he would want to be. Nope, he didn't either - and it is that chicken and egg thing. I have finally learned that it doesn't matter who started the stupid cycle - only that it is BROKEN. If he never comes back to me, I know that I worked on this marriage as much as I could. If he does, I will have the skills necessary to make a new marriage with him that will be far better than the old one.<P>Meantime, I work on ME, because I am the only one that I can work on. <P>------------------<BR>terri<BR><B>Courage</B><P>Whatever course you decide upon,<BR>there is always someone to tell you<BR>that you are wrong.<P>There are always difficulties arising<BR>which tempt you to believe that your <BR>critics are right.<P>To map out a course of action <BR>and follow it to an end <BR>requires courage.<P><I>Ralph Waldo Emerson</I>

Sorry about the yelling...this is one ax I will continue to grind.... <P>Bill

Jeez Bill!

Okay, I will continue this thought. . .<P>It might occur to you that the reason that some feel that they are blameless for causing their spouse to betray them is because they do not know or do not understand, even at this point, what exactly it was that they did or did not do. Since the root of marital breakdown is so often caused by lack of communication, dishonesty, or conflict avoidance, the BS has no idea what caused their spouse to up and ditch them.<P>And also, sometimes the reason for abandonment is unexplained is the fact that emotional needs are often not shared, and therefore, not understood: Here's a fer instance for you:<P>Okay, my next door neighbor feeds her kids a steady diet of fruit punch and twinkies, every imaginable object (including days-old food and a few roaches) is displayed on her kitchen table, and she is never NOT on the phone. She is doing nothing wrong in her book--this is the way she was raised, this is how she is, and that's that. There has been so many times when her husband has complained to me that he can't stand it, not one more day of it.<P>Then she comes to me and gripes because he won't watch the kids so she can go out for a while and he won't pick his own uniforms up from the cleaners and all he wants to do is nap in the bathtub with a book all the time and yada yada. But he is doing nothing wrong--hey, he works hard all day, he's entitled to a little peace and quiet. But she can't stand it, not one more day.<P>So why are they both telling ME this? And why won't they change? Because, to each of them, they themselves are doing nothing wrong. And each of them recognizes nothing but the other's bellyaching as irritating.<P>I heard this analogy once pertaining to emotional needs: Say your kid gets up in the middle of the night and says "Mom/Dad, I'm thirsty. I need a drink of water." Would you say "Well, *I* am not thirsty, therefore, you shouldn't be. Go back to sleep." No, you would not say this--you would accomodate your child, whether or not you had the same need for water. However, when your spouse has a deep need that you don't understand for whatever reason, sometimes you just cannot fulfill it--because you cannot relate--you do not share the same need, and going without having this need fulfilled does not bother you. Or else the need is not expressed. It is not recognized. Sometimes it is not recognized up until the moment that the WS up and takes off--in a lot of cases, to be with someone else who suits that need. And the betrayed spouse is left standing there, baffled, thinking "What in God's name did I DO? What did I not DO?" Often by then, it is far to late to communicate because bitterness and grief has set in to obstruct communication. Thank God for some of us, it is not too late.<P>I am pretty sure that this is what Bill is trying to get at, right Bill? He's too busy hissing and scratching, but he knows what he's talking about. <P>There are a few out there who have spouses that have "needs" that are so deeply rooted and so pathological that the betrayed spouse cannot fulfill them, and these are the few exceptions that Bill is talking about. Spouses that are mentally ill, traumatized, filled with rage, have predatory sexual urges--these are WS's that cannot be helped by the BS. To the idividuals that are married to mentally unstable people--there is no way that you should beat yourself up about "what you did not do" and how unfit you were as a spouse. You cannot blame yourself. THis would be destructive.<P>I was a woman who was thinking: What is that I did? What did I NOT do? I asked my spouse this with negative results. <P>My spouse--he has a deep need, for whatever reason, to have sexual encounters with many others. (Mostly on-line, where he met one or two that he REALLY liked and met them in real life.) He is a powerful man with a powerful temper--and a terrible self-esteem, and a lot of confusion, depression. Being here with so many wonderful friends, comparing notes with others, learning the priciples of Marriage Builders, I have come to finally understand that his troubles are not my fault--but they are my concern because I am his wife. And now I see that in our past marriage, the things that I did in REACTION to his behavior only perpetuated his problems. (Therefore, it was my "fault" as well.) Now that I understand, I can help him help himself with a little guidance.<P>The key is to discern the difference between these instances: Did I not meet my spouses needs--and if so, can I learn to meet them? Or were my spouse's needs so warped that I could not meet them? This is why we are all here at Marriage Builder's--to understand what is what.<P>So please don't react defensively when told "You set the stage. . ." Just open your mind and try to learn for the sake of healing your realtionship--or having a wonderful fulfilling NEXT relationship. Remember that it is your life, your actions, and your future--therefore, you DO set the stage.<P>SOrry if this message does not make sense, I am trying to type and hand out basketballs at the same time--I'm the towel girl at the gym--UGH!<p>[This message has been edited by Bernzini (edited June 02, 2001).]

Oh yeah, one more thing now that I have had a chance to sleep a bit...(maybe I should have my coffee first!):<P>I am completely blameless only in one area of my marriage.<P>I did everything I could possibly imagine to save my marriage. When I understood that I was doing things that were hurting my marriage, hurting my spouse and ultimately were therefore morally wrong....I did everything I could to learn how to stop it and do something else.<P>But where WilliamJ is dead on right about substance abuse is that while I was wrong in assisting in the comfortable environment....there was NO POSSIBLE way I could have EVER met my husband's emotional needs - or even stopped love busting for that matter. <P>I came out of our "recovery" and continued my divorce suit, knowing that I had done everything I could to take responsiblity for my part of our marriage.<P>That's why I am not a complete basket case over my relationship's demise. I took responsibility, I did what was mine to do, and did my best to correct MY part in the mess, and when the outcome was not reconcilitation, I could walk away knowing that I was not to blame.<P>But I could ONLY say that AFTER I had taken responsibility for my part in it.<P>If I had continued to play the victim of the innocent BS that was horribly mistreated by the WS through no fault of my own, I'd probably still be very traumatized and unable to move forward with my own life.<P>------------------<BR><I>Pain is a given, misery is optional.</I>

Bernzine & BR,<P>Thank you for elaborating on the basic principle of my point and Dr. Harley's point...<P> <P>Bill

Here is my 2 cents worth - no I did not put a gun to my exH's head and say "you will go out and have an extramarital affair" he chose to do this all on his own.<P>I have come to realize that in order for me to head, recover and move on with my life I need to look at what I did that caused all the unhappiness and frustration in our marriage. I was not blameless. I have realized that I am a classic co-dependent - I tried real hard to control every detail or outside factor in our life so that our life would be calm and my ex would not get mad. I learned this behavior as a young adult when I again tried to control the environment/situation so that my dad would not drink.<P>Unless you can identify and work on your mistakes (even if they were well-meaning) you are doomed to make the same mistakes in the next relationship that will most likely have the same results as your previous relationship.<P>Did I cause my ex to commit adultery - No - did our life and my behavior make him unhappy - Yes. Once admitting to these mistakes is a big step in getting out of the victim, self-pity party and moving on with your life even though at times it is extremely difficult and lonely.<P>An interesting sidenote about WS. My dad had a long-term affair with a co-worker, divorced my mom and married the OW.<BR>I have recently got the courage to discuss this with him since my own situation is pretty identical to my mom's (we were same age to get married, one child in marriage, and both of our spouses left us after long-term affairs with co-workers, both spouses did not want to even try and work on the marriage and reconcile, divorced and then married OW within a month of divorce being final). He loves me to death and has told me that I did not cause my ex's infidelity but still blames my mom for causing his infidelity. 30 years later my dad is still in the fog and still cannot face the truth about the affair and the effect it had on my mom. Amazining isn't it?<P>

I guess I consider mine to be one of the exceptions! I don't agree that the BS always has a part in the infidelity.<P>I believe the decline of my marriage and my husband's attitude towards me was a DIRECT RESULT of what HE WAS DOING behind my back with other women. See, we said "I do" but HE never stopped dating. Yes, I did plenty of things wrong, tons. But those things that came from me towards him were a reaction to his treatment of me, which was his own reaction to his infidelity. And that ranged from doing nice things for me out of guilt to outright hatefully cursing me out in front of neighbors for something very small. It's a vicious circle, but it started with him. And we dated 6 years before we got married (and he cheated thru that too I have since found out).<P>What he was sneaking around doing affected his personality, his attitude towards me, he was very secretive and wouldn't communicate - all of which put a burden on me also and I didn't always react in the best way, but then things were being kept from me and I didn't understand what I was really dealing with. He was always out satisfying himself elsewhere with a new exciting one, and then coming home to the wife. Well, how can the wife ever compete? I found all this out after I discovered the last affair, and what made me dig it up was my dad who told me that by the time a man leaves his family for another woman, he's already done it 4-5 times before. Well, heck if my dad wasn't dead on, and I just wonder how many more of these WS's of ours have a longer history than we ever found out about (because believe me, I had to DIG to get any answers because he denied everything).<P>I don't know if that's the sex addict that was mentioned earlier. I do know it runs in the men in his family from his grandpa, dad, and brother. I like to think of it as a curse. I just hope I can educate my own boys now so they don't carry on the family tradition.<P><BR>------------------<BR>Kathy<p>[This message has been edited by weirded out (edited June 02, 2001).]