Cjack - I didn't want to reply on Hopelessmom's thread and cause anymore thread drift....but I just wanted to put in my 2 cents! I don't know if this helps, but I totally hear ya on the nice guys finish last thing - let me tell you how it was/is from my side!<P>I was one of those girls that was uninterested in nice guys.<P>I can think of 3 or 4 very nice men who were interested in me in college - I had several marriage proposals! And you know what? I was soooooooooo bored by those guys. I was always totally turned on by the bad boy with the sexy black cloud of angst hanging over his head. When a guy made a pass at me, I didn't see it as disrespectful. It made me feel attractive and worthwile.<P>I can almost guarantee, that if you put me in a room with a wide range of men, I'd probably have thrown myself at the biggest jerk, the most dysfunctional out of the bunch. Like an arrow, without fail, I'd head straight for that sexy bad boy.<P>You see, the problem was with me. There was nothing wrong with the nice guys, in fact there was a whole lot RIGHT with them. I was the one with the problem.<P>I didn't know what love felt like or looked like. I didn't know what respect looked like or felt like. I grew up in a home where fear was the chief motivator, and disrespect was hidden under the guise of discipline, manners and respect for elders. I didn't know what it was like to be treated with love and dignity.<P>I don't know if you read or remember my thread about my dad and his numerous emotional affairs. I didn't know what a loving respectful marriage looked like. I grew up watching my dad treat my mother coldly and selfishly. I didn't know, from watching my dad, how men are supposed to treat women. <P>I was also very sheltered. I didn't know much about men and what drives them. So whenever a guy to walked up to me in a bar and told me how darn hot I looked out there on the dance floor, and that he couldn't keep his hands off me....I thought the guy was actually INTERESTED in me!!! I didn't know any better. I just knew it felt good to admired (so I thought), and this was what love was about, right? There was a time in my life that I was almost addicted to nightclubs and dancing. I got such a high off of turning on guys - I never ever left with, or had sex with any of the men I met in those places - I was a tease - getting high off of what I thought was admiration and attraction by those men.<P>If I had really understood what love, respect, dignity, admiration and relationships were all about, I would have been appalled and disgusted, both with those men AND myself. But I didn't.<P>I have had to work very very hard in therapy and Al-Anon to understand this about myself. I married the sexy bad boy, the most dysfunctional guy I have ever met in all my life. And as a result, 10 years later, my life is in a complete utter shambles.<P>What attracted me to him was a problem with ME. <P>And even now, my heart still goes flip flop and my knees wobble when I catch him with a naughty bad boy gleam in his eye. I understand now though, what it is about me that is attracted to that, and it's not a healthy part of me.<P>And you know what? I made my H's life hell too over those 10 years. I wasn't healthy and he suffered under my treatment of him. We were 2 broken people, who were looking to each other for the cure, and instead we spent 10 years ripping each other apart.<P>So when those girls pass you by Cjack - be happy. There is a whole lot of grief, pain and suffering that you are missing everytime one of those women turns you down in favor of that sexy bad boy jerk at the end of the bar.<P><P>------------------<BR><I>Pain is a given, misery is optional.</I>

BR,<P>Very interesting topic...<P>Sexy Bad Boy vs Hot Nice Guy...WWF for the female fans <P>Hmmmmmm...I don't think I've ever really been attracted to the "bad boy" types - maybe I've admired their appearance but the pushy bar-type, overly aggressive, egotistical, stuck on themselves, etc...eeewwww...a little too "used car salesman" for me (my apologies to any respectable car salesmen on the forum).<P>Maybe it's because I come from a family filled with nice men...who have always treated their wives/gf's well, who work hard, prioritize their family, and are loyal to a fault...I admire that, respect that, and am attracted to that type of man as a result. How I ended up with my ex is beyond me! But, then again, we were both young when we married and I didn't know enough about me, let alone him, to know what I wanted and whether he was the kind who would fit with me.<P>My ex turned out to be bad enough to give "bad boys" a bad name - I'll stick with the nice guys, thank you very much <P>Lisa<P>------------------<BR>I am woman...hear me roar...okay - meow...okay - purr? Hey, I'm working on it.

Hi BR,<P>Very, very nicely said.<P>How many times have I posted that I don't understand women. It never ceases to amaze me, especially in that nightclub scene. I've watched women by the dozens walk by every decent guy in the place to find the cruelest, meanest user and abuser in the place, and they flock to him like flies to fresh manure. Then two or three months later, she will call us to serve a protection from abuse order and get him out of her house.<P>And it happens so often in the alcoholic family too, she gets rid of one drunk only to find another. Girl, gotta love your insights.<P>Prayers and stuff,<P>Bumper

BR,<P>Every time I read your stuff I want to jump through the screen and KISS YOU!!!<P>This was my reality too... and my ex looked like a gorgeous nice guy, and seemed very nice at first, but got we more dysfunctional as the years passed {his habitual cheating, abuse, my weight gains and losses, then my affair, and on and on} and for some reason, although I understood somewhere in my psyche that this was all wrong, I pretended it was perfect and laughed when I told my friends about him pulling me by my hair out of the car.<P>So, this time, I picked a very, very nice guy who is adorable to look at ~~ but mostly, he is the nicest human I have ever met. <P>I agree that nice guys may seem to finish last at the moment, in the long run, contrary to the saying, they come in first!!<P>------------------<BR>~Sheryl<P>And we know. We who have seen. ~Pellegrino

~<p>[This message has been edited by not incapable of love (edited June 08, 2001).]

BR: If I didn't know better I'd say you WERE my Ex! She, too grew up in a major dysfunctional family. Her father is an alcoholic, her mother is a poster child for do-dependency. Her father was physically abusive, and her mom was verbally abusive. <P>I wish I had known the impact such an environment had on her before I got too involved. Its funny, but now that I see how she is (thinking that conflict, cheating, and abuse are the hallmarks of a "normal" relationship), I wonder if we would've lasted longer if I was more of a jerk to her.<P>Thanks for the insight.<P>Lisa: I think we may be twins...separated at birth! My family was like yours, so I had plenty of good examples to go by. As to "how I ended up with my ex..." I know just how you feel! I wonder if there's an "Only Nice Guys/Girls" Dating Service?!<P>Bumperii: I think the problem isn't understanding women, its <B>distinguishing</B> between the understandable ones and the unfathomable ones (like my Ex).<P>Sheryl: Remember, the final version of the old saying is "nice guys don't even start!" I have no doubt that given the chance with a more or less "nice" girl, I'd do just fine. The problem is getting started!<P>NIOL: So I guess my question to you would be: Why would you conciously pursue the "bad boy" type, knowing what you know? I was the "nice guy rebound" after a bad boy, and now my Ex is back with a different jerk. Like her, you're going into a situation with the bad boy <B>knowing</B> you'll probably get hurt...so why proceed?<P>Thanks again to all who replied!

~<p>[This message has been edited by not incapable of love (edited June 08, 2001).]

Wow, this is just too weird!<P>See, the OM in my situation was her old flame from hs, sort of...<P>You know that person in school you always wanted to go out with, but never did? That was the guy. They had always been attracted to each other, but never acted on it, and went their separate ways for 14 years. When they met again, the "magic" was still there. Of course, it didn't matter to her that she was still married to me, and he was married as well! <P>The problem she ran into (and which you may be looking at as well), is that she focused too much on the boy she knew, and not the man he had become. He had been a "bad boy with a nice guy inside" in hs, but now he seems to have lost the nice guy. After nine months, my Ex got a call from his W. Turns out he had been lying about the status of his relationship with his W the whole time!<P>Maybe its just me, but when you <B>are</B> ready to get back in a relationship, you should give that nice guy another shot!

Hi, <P>What a topic!!! I think that nice people who like to help others tend to gravitate to those who show themselves as needy. Yes, we see those who are not needy and think, they are ok, they will be alright. Then focus on those 'needy' ones. <P>Sucker for a setup!!!! Oh, H was very needy, totally disfunctional family and all. My mom & dad always said look at the family before you marry or date. They were right. I thought (what a stupid thing to do), I thought I could help. I did, the benefactors where his family members more than H. Kind of left him out emotionally and his effort was to not to even try to help himself or ask for help. The more I tried the less he tried. <P>If I were to do it over again, with what I know now. I would certainly keep my eyes open for someone with similar outlooks. I did ask those questions, he did answer them quite well, but eventually the true personality comes through. Gotta look past those pretty blue eyes. <P>Do I totally regret everything? No. We have a handsome son. But I certainly could have done without all this A stuff and what lead up to it. <P>Good guys out there? Don't despair, there are a lot of 'nice girls' looking for the right guy. Hope you all meet up someday. <P>Take Care, <BR>L.<BR>

<B>Cjack</B>:<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I wish I had known the impact such an environment had on her before I got too involved. Its funny, but now that I see how she is (thinking that conflict, cheating, and abuse are the hallmarks of a "normal" relationship), I wonder if we would've lasted longer if I was more of a jerk to her.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Sadly, you might have just hit the nail right on the head. I can't tell you how hard it has been for me to walk away from my husband. He treats me so badly, so outrageously, so disrespectfully...and I keep going back for more.<P>Why? Because deep down inside, I don't feel like I deserve better. When my H does do nice things for me, I can't say thank you and accept it, I feel guilty. I can't imagine what it would feel like to have a nice guy doing nice things for me - I'd probably bolt too, because I couldn't stand the guilty selfish feeling of not being worthy, and the pride of not wanting to need that from anyone. You see...I was taught that needs were selfish. So if I need something from my husband, I feel selfish and bad.<P>The problem is with ME, and I am sure that is true with your Ex also. I have said this before, and I'm not exaggerating at all to say that I don't know what it feels like to have my needs met. I honestly don't know what it is like to be in an intimate relationship with someone who truly respects me and considers my needs important. I've been like a blind person trying to discover what color is. When I first came to Marriage Builders and started reading the Harley articles and books...I couldn't get enough. I felt like a huge bright light went off in my head, accompanied by fireworks. THIS was what I was missing and had never experienced!! THIS is what a relationship is supposed to look like! If I had not found this place, I'd probably already be falling for the next bad boy that came along....<P><B>NIOL</B><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>He's more than some bad boy I picked out of a crowd ... he's my high school sweetie, first love, first a-lot-of-things! We both took different paths after high school, and inside that bad boy is a sweetheart ... I just don't know how to find that person, or when to start looking for that matter. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Nooooooooooooooooooooooo!! Big red flags and warning bells go off when I read what you typed above. That's <B>exactly</B> what someone like me thinks when I meet the sexy bad boy. Its that sexy black cloud of angst that pulls me in. I fall in love with the "potential" sweetheart that "just hiding" underneath the surface jerk stuff. If someone like me just showed him enough love and caring, the sweetheart would come to light and he would be cured!! And <B>I</B> the everloving compassionate wonderful BR would have done it, and he will always be forever grateful to me for rescuing him!! It was ME, the loving, wise, ever intelligent BR that saw that there was a "sweetheart" to save. Are you getting romantically mushy gushy tear jerky feelings over this yet? Gag me with a spoon!<P>What it really means is that I feel so bad about myself, that I need someone less than me to feel good. What I am feeling is not love at all. Its insecurity and a feeling of worthlessness, mixed up with selfish pride and judgemental disrespect. If I can fix that guy that is even lower than me, I can feel good about myself because I am "better" and also because I saved him.<P><B>Orchid</B><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I think that nice people who like to help others tend to gravitate to those who show themselves as needy. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>This is exactly how I used to be. I was "nice" and I desperately needed to rescue others to feel good about myself. What I discovered later was that really "nice" people don't rescue and martyr themselves by marrying the needy types. My definition of what a "nice" person was needed a radical adjustment. <P>Nice people know how to respect others by allowing others to make their own choices and to suffer the consequences. Any time I behave "nicely" by rescuing, I actually harm the other person. It's not nice at all!!<P>------------------<BR><I>Pain is a given, misery is optional.</I><BR><p>[This message has been edited by BrambleRose (edited June 01, 2001).]

<B><I>...What it really means is that I feel so bad about myself, that I need someone less than me to feel good...</B></I><P>I have never, ever heard someone say that before, but it really caught my eye. I notice nice, pretty girls all the time with real jerks and losers who treat them with less respect than any of their "other" physical possessions.<P>It's too late in life for me to change and become a jerk, just to meet a girl. I'll just have to wait for one who wants a nice guy <P>------------------<BR>nick<P>it's only time that heals the pain <BR>and makes the sun come out again

~<p>[This message has been edited by not incapable of love (edited June 08, 2001).]

BrRs says: <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>If someone like me just showed him enough love and caring, the sweetheart would come to light and he would be cured!! And I the everloving compassionate wonderful BR would have done it, and he will always be forever grateful to me for rescuing him!! It was ME, the loving, wise, ever intelligent BR that saw that there was a "sweetheart" to save. What it really means is that I feel so bad about myself, that I need someone less than me to feel good. What I am feeling is not love at all. Its insecurity and a feeling of worthlessness, mixed up with selfish pride and judgemental disrespect. If I can fix that guy that is even lower than me, I can feel good about myself because I am "better" and also because I saved him. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Wow, this is a similar insight that I had last week in counseling! But, it's not about the 'sexy bad guy'... it is about the good guy who has a vision has more potential to live the way he wants but hasn't gotten it set up right yet... in walks me! A woman with no vision for herself, but willing to latch on to the good-guy's vision and dreams and HELP him make it happen. The problem is that it's the VISION/DREAM that I cling to and not the guy. Sooner or later the guy feels manipulated (held to that dream) and not accepted for who he is! In my mind it's like, "You can't change your vision... you can't start doing those kinds of things! It will not help this vision and will make you look bad... hence it will not allow me to finish my task of rescuing you!"<P>That hit me b/w the eyes last week as I was dealing with my H's rejection - moving out and confronting lingering issues with college sweetheart. Thank goodness I've come to realize that ... it's NOT about the good guy, it's about me and oh, what an eye opener THAT was! I don't want to be a self-absorbed person without dreams and visions of my own!<BR>That's NOT the woman God has for me... I'm learning so much about tolerance, conflict resolution and accepting differences - especially of those closest to me. When they no longer represent who I am and am not... then I can let go. <P>The problem is NOW to find what my own vision is without continuing to be self-absorbed. How do we find that balance?<P><BR><P>------------------<BR>We cannot do everything at once... but we can do something at once

[QUOTE]<BR><B><I>...What it really means is that I feel so bad about myself, that I need someone less than me to feel good...</B></I><P>Wow, this certainly explains my ex and his choice of OW... <P>Lisa<P><P>------------------<BR>I am woman...hear me roar...okay - meow...okay - purr? Hey, I'm working on it.

...And here I was thinking that being a good guy is a good thing... Should have called myself ABadGuy, I guess... <P>AGG

I'm hoping that one day I'll be the kind of girl that wants a nice guy. Until then, I'll just work at becoming the kind of girl that a nice guy deserves. <P>------------------<BR><I>Pain is a given, misery is optional.</I>

~<p>[This message has been edited by not incapable of love (edited June 08, 2001).]

BR: Thank you again for the insights. The more you say, the more it makes me understand where my Ex was coming from. I'm just wondering if, for her sake, there is anyway I could help her to realize this aspect of herself. <P>NIOL: A subtle part of an abusive relationship (and one that often goes unnoticed) is that the abuser, either directly or indirectly makes you feel as if you are somehow undeserving of anything better. That way they maintain some additional control during the relationship. The problem is, that feeling of inferiority doesn't go away after the relationship ends. <P>My Ex even admitted to me recently that she would never find anyone that would treat her as good as I did, and one of the reasons she stayed with me was becuase she knew I would never, ever hurt her in any way. But like BR, she didn't know how to handle a "normal" relationship. <P>You may be partially right. If your STBX planted that idea in your head (that you don't deserve to be treated well), you may subconciously believe it.<P>As for the "nice guy," maybe he <B>did</B> move too fast, but maybe you just needed to get him to slow things down, rather than slamming on the brakes and walking away.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BrambleRose:<BR><B>Cjack - I didn't want to reply on Hopelessmom's thread and cause anymore thread drift....but I just wanted to put in my 2 cents! I don't know if this helps, but I totally hear ya on the nice guys finish last thing - let me tell you how it was/is from my side!<P>I was one of those girls that was uninterested in nice guys.<P>I can think of 3 or 4 very nice men who were interested in me in college - I had several marriage proposals! And you know what? I was soooooooooo bored by those guys. I was always totally turned on by the bad boy with the sexy black cloud of angst hanging over his head. When a guy made a pass at me, I didn't see it as disrespectful. It made me feel attractive and worthwile.<P>I can almost guarantee, that if you put me in a room with a wide range of men, I'd probably have thrown myself at the biggest jerk, the most dysfunctional out of the bunch. Like an arrow, without fail, I'd head straight for that sexy bad boy.<P>You see, the problem was with me. There was nothing wrong with the nice guys, in fact there was a whole lot RIGHT with them. I was the one with the problem.<P>I didn't know what love felt like or looked like. I didn't know what respect looked like or felt like. I grew up in a home where fear was the chief motivator, and disrespect was hidden under the guise of discipline, manners and respect for elders. I didn't know what it was like to be treated with love and dignity.<P>I don't know if you read or remember my thread about my dad and his numerous emotional affairs. I didn't know what a loving respectful marriage looked like. I grew up watching my dad treat my mother coldly and selfishly. I didn't know, from watching my dad, how men are supposed to treat women. <P>I was also very sheltered. I didn't know much about men and what drives them. So whenever a guy to walked up to me in a bar and told me how darn hot I looked out there on the dance floor, and that he couldn't keep his hands off me....I thought the guy was actually INTERESTED in me!!! I didn't know any better. I just knew it felt good to admired (so I thought), and this was what love was about, right? There was a time in my life that I was almost addicted to nightclubs and dancing. I got such a high off of turning on guys - I never ever left with, or had sex with any of the men I met in those places - I was a tease - getting high off of what I thought was admiration and attraction by those men.<P>If I had really understood what love, respect, dignity, admiration and relationships were all about, I would have been appalled and disgusted, both with those men AND myself. But I didn't.<P>I have had to work very very hard in therapy and Al-Anon to understand this about myself. I married the sexy bad boy, the most dysfunctional guy I have ever met in all my life. And as a result, 10 years later, my life is in a complete utter shambles.<P>What attracted me to him was a problem with ME. <P>And even now, my heart still goes flip flop and my knees wobble when I catch him with a naughty bad boy gleam in his eye. I understand now though, what it is about me that is attracted to that, and it's not a healthy part of me.<P>And you know what? I made my H's life hell too over those 10 years. I wasn't healthy and he suffered under my treatment of him. We were 2 broken people, who were looking to each other for the cure, and instead we spent 10 years ripping each other apart.<P>So when those girls pass you by Cjack - be happy. There is a whole lot of grief, pain and suffering that you are missing everytime one of those women turns you down in favor of that sexy bad boy jerk at the end of the bar.<P></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I agree with you totally. I wish that I could say that the reason I am enduring my pain was for those reasons with my W because I think what you said applies to some men as well.<P>I married my W because God asked me to. I would be considered one of those good guys because I know at times I bore my W. It is not that I'm not an interesting fun loving guy. It is that I keep wanting US to do things that are pleasing to God rather than OURSELVES. I just know that if we had played by God's rules, she, our boys, and I would not be enduring this wretched pain we are feeling from her indiscretions.<P>Excellent post!!<P>------------------<BR><B><I>God Bless,<BR>Rob</I></B><BR> regilmor@swbell.net

<BR>Just wanted to let you know BR that I did go back and read this ... <P>I wish there was something that would make this easier.<BR>