<soapbox rant><P>I know these things tend to go as a cycle...but does anyone else think that this board is tending to lose it's focus?<P>I've been away for a few days, and coming back...reading through the posts...I'm seeing alot of newcomers posting, and very few solid MB responses. Many of the questions being asked are answered by the Harleys - but the responses I've seen don't resemble much of anything...in fact I see alot of advice to try other websites and other books. <P>I know its not against the rules to post or talk about other stuff...I've sure gotten alot of good tips on books or websites for various issues, but its always been in context with the MB principles. <P>We kicked Dara's behind over to the Recovery board by talking MB at her. I don't think she'd be over there now, working on her marriage, if we'd responded to her the way the posts seem to be going around here lately! How many others that show up here are not getting the answers that they need to hear in order to give them a chance to rescue their own marriages from the brink of divorce?<P>I've tried to talk specifically to those coming here with alcoholic and addicted spouses, mostly because I understand and have experience with a similar situation. I'll keep doing that. I hate the fact that there is nothing I can do to save my marriage, and I know how hard I tried anyway. But I can't answer everyone, and in fact, I don't really <B>know</B> how to respond anyway. My experience and knowledge is pretty limited - but I know some of you out there are much smarter at this than I am...and all I am hearing is silence!<P>Life gets busy as we heal and move on I guess. And everyone is busy. I know I am!<P>Maybe I'm way off target...what do you all think? <P>--BR <P>------------------<BR><I>Pain is a given, misery is optional.</I>

I hear ya BR.<P>I've been lurking for the past couple of weeks. And have only replied to a couple of posts. I don't know why for sure as I only have a perception.<P>I am in the very, very final stages of my divorce. Yehaa.<P>My life has turned around. I'm having the time of my life now. I have met more new people and let most of those people into my life. I'm getting out more, I'm in much better shape, I've renewed my faith and closeness with the lord. I still have things I need to work on but for the most part I'm in the process of moving on. Now what does this mean in regards to your post?<P>I think I am much wiser now than before I came to this site over a year ago. I also have noticed alot of newbies posting and I read almost all of their posts.<P>What I am thinking is that I am kind of a specicialist. I can only offer advice to people that are in a situation like I was in. I don't feel qualified to provide that same kind of advice to lets say a person that is abused by an alcoholic or physically abused. The stuff or range of stuff I could say to this person is tantamount to dynamite in the wrong hands. Now that being said, I will provide moral support to anybody but that isn't the same as advice. <P>BR, It absolutly scares the heck out of me that I will say something to a person that will exascerbate the problem that the poster has.. Does any of this make sense? <P>This site has helped me grow outwardly and become very much aware of myself inwardly. <P>I don't know??? I just feel strange replying to some of the posts I don't feel qualified to reply too.<P>Heck, if'n you want to hear about what I did at the Peter Frampton/Journey concert to lighten the tone of the board, you got it. (It would probably be better to ask off line.. ;-)) <P>I also noticed that alot of newcomers get this basicly automatic response about plan a and plan b. I think this kind s*&ks because it doesn't allow us to build up the trust that we had in each other acouple of months ago.,.,<P>But what the heck do I know? I'm from Texas.. <P>Tex<P><BR><p>[This message has been edited by AgoodManInTexas (edited June 13, 2001).]

Well, there are a lot of people here who have formed friendships and use this forum as a means to keep in touch. It would be a shame to run them off, as was nearly done awhile back by someone who didn't like a particular thread. A lot of them started a forum elsewhere, and their insight and experience was lost to people who showed up during their absence. Some of them rarely post now.<P>I for one offer advice occasionally, but not as much as I used to, as I'm in total acceptance of my inevitable divorce and don't want to mistakenly push someone to plan B & acceptance, if there's a chance the marriage can be saved.<P>I think it's a mistake to start putting limitations on a forum that promotes the free exchange of ideas, just because it doesn't suit ones sense of what <B><I>should</B></I> be on here. That's called censorship.<P>------------------<BR>nick<P>it's only time that heals the pain <BR>and makes the sun come out again

I see your point about "getting back to MB." I have seen alot of posts where the people haven't even <I>looked</I> at the MB principles. I think re-directing them back to the basic concepts, etc. is always helpful.<P>I think we'd all admit there is a similar "progression" thru this process....at least for a ways....I think directing people to the appropriate boards is helpful, while not limiting them from any discussion.<P>In the describer under the "D/D" section header....<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>A place for support and sharing ideas.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I think that is always valuable, even if they differ from the MB principles. The MB principles are principles, not strict rules. They don't ALWAYS work in EVERY situation and I don't think it's bad to say that or to offer other suggestions.<P>I do wish, however, that newcomers would go back to the main site...it has such valuable information and really does give you a better understanding of these discussions.<P>One last point....while this is a MB site, we are on the Divorcing/Divorced board....and you have to admit, once you get to that point, there really isn't much MB has to offer. Don't get me wrong....I LOVE MB and thank God that I found this site....it's been invaluable to me. BUT....once you reach this stage.....well, what can you say? We are all probably in Plan B mostly and just trying to get on with our lives.<P>I think the D/D board is the last step to total non-involvement (at least on a daily basis) with the forum. It's like the launch-pad to a new life. That's the way I look at it. And I appreciate the help I've received here getting started on that new path.<P>Just my 2 cents.....<P>Aloha,<BR>Mrs.O<P>

Hi <B>AGoodManInTexas</B><P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I think I am much wiser now than before I came to this site over a year ago. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Yep. That's why it's time to share some of that wisdom! <P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>What I am thinking is that I am kind of a specicialist. I can only offer advice to people that are in a situation like I was in. <P><snip><P>BR, It absolutly scares the heck out of me that I will say something to a person that will exascerbate the problem that the poster has.. Does any of this make sense? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Yep. it does make sense. I hesitate too sometimes. But I try to remember that everyone here are adults, and have to ultimately make their own choices. I try not to give advice - I try to just share my own experiences and what worked for me, in my specific circumstance. Like you, I'm a specialist! But we all have our own unique circumstances, and some things are universal...and MB principles can be applied in many different circumstances.<P>What if someone had been afraid of saying something wrong to you when you first showed up....and instead said nothing?<P>Time to give back! <P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I also noticed that alot of newcomers get this basicly automatic response about plan a and plan b. I think this kind s*&ks because it doesn't allow us to build up the trust that we had in each other acouple of months ago.,.,<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Yeah I kinda agree. I like when Sheryl or NSR posts their generic "Here's the articles" posts, because it gives the newcomer the background and context with which to understand our approach. And ultimately, it is the newcomer's responsiblity to find out what Plan A and Plan B are if they really are sincere about getting help!<P>But, there are alot of times that maybe we could do a better job of telling someone when their actions might not exactly be a good plan A, and help them to figure out how to fix that! Just telling a newcomer....Plan A or Plan B, you decide, isn't really helpful!<P>Woohoo Journey! Now thats a band I haven't heard about in awhile! Sure, go ahead, why not! <P>Hi <B>cOOker</B>: I think you misunderstood my post! <P>I don't want to run anyone off, especially the oldtimers! I'm trying to encourage those very same oldtimers to share their wisdom and spread the MB concepts.<P>I also don't ever want to see censorship practiced. Noway jose! I'm not suggesting that people shouldn't make recommendations for other sites/books/whatever....all I'm saying is that it seems to be the ONLY type of response I'm reading these days. <P>Instead of: "Hi Newcomer, your experience is similiar mine, here's how plan A worked in my situation!" ...there's alot of newcomers helping other newcomers by saying: Hi, I'm like you, check out XYZ book or site for a plan to save your marriage!<P>And while that's certainly ok, gee, I wouldn't have found MB if it wasn't for someone recommending marriagebuilders to me on other site...there is very little talk about MB in addition to the other recommendations. And I just find that a little sad that the forum is dissolving into a "here's where to go for help" instead of "help is here!" kind of forum.<P>And acceptance is always a good thing. Reality is a good thing. I don't think acceptance means giving up and getting divorced, it just means getting in touch with reality so that we can make good choices about things like...Plan A or Plan B. Ultimately only each individual can decide to fight on or not, and we can't tell them which plan to work if any...but every bit of experience and strength we share helps those people make wiser decisions if they choose to listen....don't you think?<P>Anyway, I'm sorry that I wasn't clearer...I hope that my post isnt taken as an attempt to drive off posters or establish "rules" about posting or anything like that!<P>------------------<BR><I>Pain is a given, misery is optional.</I>

Mrs. O,<P>That is not what I saw the function of the D/D board to be. For many people, being thrown into divorce was not the end of a process. My H filed six weeks after he left, before I even knew there was an OW. Some spouses file before the other spouse even knows anything is amiss. Many people here are, or probably should be, in Plan A. <P>To me, a MB D/D board should be a support group for people whose spouses are divorcing them against their will. <P>My son was watching Wheel of Fortune today. One of the contestants, an older woman, had remarried her H after having been divorced for 10 years, and she said that he was now a wonderful man. My son called me into the room to tell me about it, and to say that I shouldn't give up after only two years.<P>As I have said on more than one occasion, I wish there were a board for people who were NOT giving up on their marriages, rather than this board which seems, especially lately, to emphasize dating advice.

Hmmm...I can completely understand all viewpoints. As I see it, it is entirely possible to plan A while in the process of getting a divorce or after the divorce is final. Maybe it would be easier to direct the people who are still trying to plan A to the Plan A/Plan B forum. They could still post questions here about divorcing but they could also get Plan A/B advice from the other forum. Make sense? Not tell them to leave but just suggest that they may get some great advice from the other forums as well.<P>I don't post a lot. I read alot and sympathize but that's about it. I stick to the fun threads and occassionally post to the people who are dealing with physical abuse or alcoholism/addictions. I'm almost an expert in that area. I don't post about dating because it tends to upset too many people (no, I'm not dating) and I don't want to get in a battle about something that is a personal decision. If I want to discuss anything like that, I do it by email. <P>Mitzi <P>mitzihartman@webtv.net<BR>(anyone can email me anytime!)<BR>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Nellie1:<BR><B>To me, a MB D/D board should be a support group for people whose spouses are divorcing them against their will. </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Well, I fit that bill. I think most people here do as well.<BR> <BR>I do think, however, that it is different for all the people who come here. You gave some great examples....people in the midst of instant upheaval, people who's situation may not involve another person, etc. There are many different situations. And you are right....not every problem here follows the same path, so to speak. I stand corrected.<P>Having said that, advice on dating may not be where you are at exactly, but it may be where someone else is. Divorce IS the end of the road for me and my H. It's not the end of my life, just the end of that road.<P>I don't think the D/D board should just be limited to THAT specific process only. I think it can still help people who are at the beginning, middle or end of that process. I guess that's what I meant about the launch-pad. Since I'll not be married anymore, and the divorce will happen someday fairly soon, there are still things I have questions, comments, etc. about. This is a great place to do that, esp. if you've been here a while and "know" and trust the people, as I feel I do.<P>I think there's room for everyone here. Like I said, the Harley's don't have that much to offer a divorced or "standing" person in reality. And that's okay....because it IS a marriage building site, afterall.<P>I'm just thankful that they DO offer a D/D board. It has been very helpful to me, even if I'm not ready to date or in the middle of the chaos.<P>Aloha,<BR>Mrs.O<P>PS There are some other sites too for standers....have you tried <A HREF="http://www.rejoiceministries.org" TARGET=_blank>www.rejoiceministries.org</A> ?<P><p>[This message has been edited by Mrs.O (edited June 13, 2001).]

Hi <B>Mrs. O</B> ~ I guess I was posting my previous reply while you were typing yours!<P>Yes, that's my point - lots of people are showing up here that are just worried about divorce, and want advice. Lots of marriages that aren't finished by any means...Orchid's, Knewje...and of course Dara, and others. At least we can send them packing in the right directions <P>I disagree though that the D/D board has little to offer in terms of MB principles for us. My marriage was DOA ~ but it took me a while to figure that out. Geez, I actually started at MB over on the Recovery side!! MB princples help me recognize the signs of a healthy relationship. Btwn the books, the articles and my counseling with Steve Harley, I figured out what a marriage was meant to look like. I hadn't known!!! So now, while I'm here because my marriage is over...I'm still learning alot, and feeling comfortable surrounded by other people who understand what a healthy marriage is, wether or not they are participating in one! <P>Like you, I get so much out of posting here - I can't even tell you how much it means to me to be able to talk with people who also understand the MB principles, and whose goals are to one day have a marriage that reflects them.<P>Hi <B>Nellie</B> ~<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>To me, a MB D/D board should be a support group for people whose spouses are divorcing them against their will. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>By your standards, I don't belong here. <P>Fortunately I know that I do belong...because Steve Harley's last advice to me, after recommending that I file for my D, was to get on this board and get support and help from all of you!<P>I have only the deepest respect for your choice to continue holding out for your marriage and your husband. There are many times that I envy you and others. I wish I had even a shred of hope to give me the strength to hold on. <P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I wish there were a board for people who were NOT giving up on their marriages, rather than this board which seems, especially lately, to emphasize dating advice.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I disagree here completely also! We are divorced and divorcing...each of our circumstances are slightly different...but part of the healing is that some of choose to move on and try to rebuild our lives without our former spouses...but hopefully WITH the Marriage Builders principles. I think dating again, after the experiences that we have all shared and have in common, is a very appropriate topic here!<P>I mean, seriously, if I'm dating, you can be for darn sure that I'm going to be here asking people that understand already the MB approach for advice!<P>Nellie, if you really want a board like that...why not put one up yourself, and moderate it? <P>Hi <B>Mitzi</B>! <P>Dating really does get everyone riled up doesn't it? We obviously haven't learned the Love Busting lesson about disrespectful judgements - or at least learned to apply it to our lives outside of our relationships.<P>I think dating should be discussed (outside of the morality issue of when its OK to start! ) - we are all in different places, and we all have so much to offer each other as a result!<P>------------------<BR><I>Pain is a given, misery is optional.</I>

I've tried to post threads just like this, ya know! How right you are about MB principles being left out at times... <P>Personally, I post a lot -- too much, and always have -- although I do try to hang with the fun ones and those other subjects which touch me (abuse, newbies, WS guilt, doing the "wrong" things when trying to do the right things, and sometimes dating -- although everyone clearly knows my take on that, and I'd rather just stay away than fight about it)... but as I've noticed and written about, the newbies so often get a "just leave the bum" message, and that's one thing we can ALL agree upon... that's not what the Harley's espouse at ALL.<P>I'll keep on trying to welcome newbies and hit the threads with a special tug on my heart... but I've already been cutting back here... I don't know if I'll stick around or not... I've stopped saying goodbye... I never can seem to really go!!<P>------------------<BR>~Sheryl<P>And we know. We who have seen. ~Pellegrino

Bramble,<P>I saw this board as a place for those those that applied the ideas espoused by Dr H and found themselves divorcing, they are catagory 1, catagory 2 are those that came directly here when they already had D proceedings in progress, catagory 3 are those that are on otherboards and come here to support us that have migrated here due to circumstances...<P>For me personaly I am in and out with my opinions...I go through phases when I have insight to offer and those times I don't...I always try to use some MB stuff I learned here...Right now is one of those times I'm not posting much...No rhyme or reason to it, just not much to say...I do get fired up on certain issues as you might have noticed <P>I'm divorced and in plan-a...I <I>chose</I> this route because it is much easier for me to be spiritual than mean and nasty. Plus my daughter doesn't need to see her parents spewing venim...<P>Bill

I was away for 2 weeks (after my H kicked me out of the house and moved OW in until I got a restraining order to kick them out and get back in the house myself) and noticed so many newcomers (newer than me) even in that short time. So many people, including myself, looking for advice rather than able to give good solid MB advice based on experience. Of course we can all offer each other support and we all have our own wisdom to offer.<P>I only recently moved to this forum, but I don't fit the description offered by Nellie. I am the one filing for divorce. I don't want a divorce but my H is an addict/alcoholic who began drinking and using again after almost 10 years of sobriety. His OW drinks and uses right along with him. He and I own and operate a business together. I felt I had no choice but to file for divorce to protect the business. We receive money from the state and are heavily scrutinized so I felt I had to take control. Many of our employees were threatening to quit and we have since lost quite a few of our employees who were involved in drugs with my H.<P>BrambleRose and Mitzi, bring on the advice!<P>I think we are all here to get support. We don't necessarily have the same situations, but we pick the forums that fit the best and people seem to gravitate towards others with similar issues. I personally feel that this is still an MB site and should honor MB principles. Even in divorce it's important for us to look at our own part and continue to be respectful in whatever relationship exists between us and our ex. That doesn't mean we shouldn't recommend other sites and/or books. <P>From what I've read, many people still hope for reconciliation. Others are just trying to deal with the pain and move on. Still others have moved on and are interested in dating. Until we have separate forums for each stage, it seems like we should be able to accomodate all these stages. I'm new, but it gives me hope to see people moving on and being able to be happy once again after divorce, if divorce is inevitable. I also like to hear stories about reconciliation. And I appreciate advice about dealing with addict/alcoholics even though this isn't specifically an MB issue.

BR,<P>Thank you so much for including me. When I first began here, I was unsure about where to start posting. So I read alot of posts, and liked the advice I saw given on this board. I did not want to admit to being divorced, or getting divorced. I wanted nothing to do with that association!! Richard certainly never gave me any hope during that long winter/spring. This board has saved me so many times, if only to know there are others out there hurting like me. Speaking for myself, I pour out my rawset emotions here. Without fear of chastism. And I have been accepted and cared for here.<P>Yes, I too have noticed a difference in the responses given here. Sisyphus and Gnome were all over this board when I first started. They always responded to others with their sage advice. I still lurk, about once a day. I wont go to recovery board, as you all are my family. <P>I would like to think, that maybe I (yes, little complicated me) could offer others some hope for their marraiges. I certainly thought mine was doomed based on what I heard from Richard. You guys are like family. No, I take that back, my family is FUBAR, but you all have become my 'adopted family' so to speak.<P>I have never realized my control issues before. Richard would point them out but I never listened. You guys saw it immediately, and offered me solid advice for my marraige and improving myself.<P>Everyone was honest with me. And, more importantly compassionate.<P>I will continue here, on this board, in the hopes that I can still seek advice. And to offer others hope.<P>Isnt THAT the point of this board, or plan A? To possibly restore a marraige, if not, than to retain a sense os dignity and self worth? Isnt that plan A? I remember it states somewhere, if there is not to be a marraige, than eventually plan A will help a person disengage from a marraige knowing they trying their damdest, with am intact sense of self worth.<P>For me,I will stay right here. With my buddies. And, after this move is completed and I have more time again, I will resume frequency. <P>Love to all,<P>Dara

BR,<P>Please forgive this, but "Ditto". No profound thoughts to add. We are at our best when sharing experience, strength and hope with others. <P>Even after all these years, I believe that if we had something like MB around, we would have had a much better chance of saving the marriage. After reading Dr. Harley's columns, I realized just how much sense he makes, and that I was only an expert on how not to do it.<P>Glad you brougt it up.<P>Prayers and stuff,<P>Bumper

I think maybe more people in pain have come across this site & since they are dealing with the mention of or fear of a D they come here. We are all kinds of people in all kinds of stages from Can this happen, to been there & done that. When I was freaked out & extremely emotional in the beginning coming on here was a great help. It still is where I get encouragement. I do browse some other forums too, like Other Topics & general Questions.

I think you are a very caring person who is trying very hard to help other people solve their problems using Mb principles. I also think this board is 10% for people to get advice and 90% for them to vent and get support. Hence, any advice given, whether good or bad, is not nearly as important as the compassion and kind words.

I promise, HH, I'm not following you around! But I agree with you again...<P>Compassion and kind words... the most important thing!!<P>Unfortunately, sometimes those words are surrounded by "get rid of the bum" before any "work" is done on the relationship (a'la Harley) and then although it sounds compassionate, it can cause harm.<P>So, a hug, some loving words, and if possible, some advice that mirrors (as much as possible) what is being taught on this website. <BR>

Hi all I would like to give my 2 cents if I may.<BR>Maybe I shouldnt but what the heck I have nothing to lose.<P>I am fairly new to MB.<P>In the time that I have been here. I have replied to alot of<P>post about alchol and abuse. It has helped me to be able<P>to share my ordeal and feelings. On the other hand thou. I <P>have also made a post and never get a reply. Which only<P>leads me to believe 1.what my Q are aren't important <P>enough for others to reply to or I am not in thier buddy<P>system for them to notice. I have made a few friends here.<P>Also one thing I must say: A person should not be excluded<P>from making friends or findings relationships. This all<P>has to do with needs. Which everyone has them. In that <P>should not feel they are not able to make a post based on<BR> <BR>acceptance. Which sometimes is how I feel. Sorry for adding<P>my 2 cents. Just had to let that out. Ok I'm better now.<P>Wishing us all well<BR>...........JJ............

Oh JJ,<P>You are EXACTLY the person we should hear from!! Your feelings are so valid.<P>It's often not that the question isn't important, but one that doesn't answer easily... just as you go to alcohol/abuse threads, some people stay FAR AWAY from those... too difficult to answer if you haven't "been there"... although a hug woulda been nice, eh?<P>And the clic (how do you spell that?) feeling you sometimes get... part of that is because a group of us began here all together before this divorced board came into being... we all fought for our marriages together, and we all got divorces together -- sad, I know. But the point is, on those threads where you feel out of place, YOU ARE WELCOME TO JUMP IN... we just have been cyber-pals (and sometimes we meet outside this place as well) for a couple of years now.<P>You are welcome ANYWHERE ON THESE BOARDS... c'mon in, the waters fine!!<BR><P>------------------<BR>~Sheryl<P>And we know. We who have seen. ~Pellegrino

Thank you Sheryl<BR>What I really meant was not so much the abuse issue. Other issues as well that I have had questions about.<BR>I got not an answer. I think if it hasn't been for actually knowing someone on MB. I would be lost in the wind per say. Only one more thing that bothers me. (I know I'm gonna get crap for this one, but hell it can't get worse)<BR>I do not agree with people using the board or other peoples post for not so nice purposes. To give advice and and suggestions is great and most welcome in every aspect. B/C you read them digest them and weed thru them. But for someone to use your post against you for the wrong reasons is wrong. Ok now I'm done. Sorry to anyone who takes offense to this. Not trying to be mean. Just had to say it, and get it off my chest.<P>.............JJ..........