Hi everyone,<P>Haven't been back in a while - life has gotten busy. For those of you that don't know my situation - wife left about 1.5 years ago - divorce became final about 2 months ago.<P>Since then I thought my luck was turning around. Met a really nice girl and was able to see her on about 4 dates and spoke on the phone for a few nights for a couple hours each night. As far as my emotional scars were concerned, they really didn't show themselves - [I made a promise to myself that I will not let my past affect any future relationships - If I did I would only still be letting my xwife hurt me and that is unacceptable to me.] <P>Keep in mind I spent the past year and a half celibate - Up until my divorce I knew I could not even begin to date anyone new. I gave everything I had into trying to save my marriage (and then some), but my wife was lost to the fog and I don't think she will ever come out of it. By the time my divorce rolled around, I had gone through a great deal of pain and healing.<P>I left the courtroom as if a weight had been lifted from my back - I no longer could do anything to prevent the divorce and for the first time in years I felt peace.<P>Anyways, I was fixed up with a younger girl (28 yrs. - I'm 30 yrs.) and I was really impressed by her. She has many of the qualities I look for in a woman. Now the problem - while she was never married, from what I have been able to gather from talking to her (and a couple of her friends) she has been "hurt" in a really big way by two different guys. She has such a "wall" built up around her heart she won't let anyone in. Having just survived a "destroyed heart", I instantly sensed that this was indeed the case with her. <P>But, during the time we spent together and on the phone, I was able to pierce through the wall a little bit and I found a lovely young woman on the other side.<P>Not to sound immodest here, but I have a way of making people comfortable around me without too much effort (I am one of the few "nice guys" left), and I believe that is what was beginning to happen with her - I felt she was finally opening up a little to me. <P>Then I spoke with her last night and out of the blue she said she didn't think it was going to work - not because of me, but just because she wasn't ready. In other words, she is scared of getting hurt again.<P>I like this woman a fair amount and would like to see what could happen, but I totally understand her feelings (and boy can I relate after last year!). I thought to come back here to MB to post this question, because there are quite a few women here who are divorced and who have been hurt "bad" by men.<P>My question to you is: "Is there anything I can do to 'save' this relationship?" I am so willing to take things slow. I love spending time with her. This past Friday we had a nice date, but I think I may have scared her off by telling her I really liked her.<P>If she didn't like me, that is one thing - I would just let it go. But from what I hear and feel, she does like me, but she is soooooo scared. Now keep in mind she told me last night that it was not going to work out. And I want to respect her decision, but I also feel drawn to just not give up so easy. In my mind and heart, I think she is worth putting up a fight at least before I give up. On the other hand I don't want to "force" her to do anything she is not ready to do...<P>Any advice?<P>Thanks!<BR>Mike<P>------------------<BR>God always waits for the right time to do the right thing in the right way.

Hi Mike <P>I'm not divorced yet but can I offer something?<P>I'm wondering....you spent a great deal of time and effort to save your marriage. You finally gave into the inevitable when your divorce became legal, and I totally admire your strength and committment to your marriage and to your wife. Now 2 months later you are considering trying to "save" another relationship. I'm wondering if you really are ready to date - because in your mind and heart, you were committed and married until only 2 months ago! Sometimes we tend to repeat patterns of relationships...and so I'm just finding this pattern a little curious.<P>Granted I'm not dating. I'm still married - even if I wasn't married...I'm no way close to being ready emotionally. But when I do start dating...I'll be looking for men who don't need to be 'fixed' or 'healed' - especially not by me.<P>Healing is something that really happens inside of ourselves. It's something we should do BEFORE getting into new relationships. You can't heal her, she has to find it within. <P>--BR

Wow, Mike. This really brings home to me the problems with dating after divorce. Your account sure reminds me of the development of my own relationship with my wife.<P>My wife was hurt by a man, although in her case it was her alcoholic and narcissistic father. Her walls were nearly impenetrable. In fact, she was oblivious to guys' interest in her, and she had never dated until I came along. Early in our own relationship she told me that she would never marry (which didn't bother me, since I was not looking for a romantic relationship at the time myself).<P>As our relationship blossomed, her defenses came down, at least where I was concerned. I came to love her deeply, and my wife came to love me. Her plan never to marry was forgotten, and we became engaged. I did not set out to "rescue" this troubled soul; I had enormous respect for her, and although I knew her family history, I was truly unaware of the depth of her wounds, of the cavern waiting to swallow her if the scab ever came off.<P>Eleven years after we were married, the scab <I>did</I> come off, and after a year of slow disintegration my wife finally fled and filed for divorce.<P>We had had years of happiness together. We had borne each other's hurts and shared each other's joys. I was a good and generous husband; I loved and supported my wife in virtually everything she chose to do. I provided for her wants and needs, and I demanded nothing of her in return. (Yes, I <I>got</I> little in return, and the state of my love bank was in large part responsible for my prolonged struggle with depression. But even in depression I doggedly <BR>kept up with my responsibilities and my support for my wife.) When my wife decided that I didn't love or accept her, I begged her to tell me what I could do to show her that I <I>did</I> love and accept her. I listened to her carefully, and I did everything she asked me to do, at least as I understood it. And I never stopped trying to understand better.<P>None of this mattered. I did everything as "right" as was humanly possible to do. I honestly believe no one could have done a better job as husband than I did. And yet, nothing I did could save my wife from herself, or could save <I>me</I> from her.<P>So, my question is, once you have been betrayed by your wife after many years, because you could not heal the hurts your wife experienced before you even entered the picture, <I>how</I> can you put your trust in a new relationship, particularly one that's also stressed by a troubled past? Even if the relationship seems to be going well? If you give up your faith in your first wife, how can you ever have faith in someone else?<BR>

I agree with BR. I think you should take a look at that.<P>Also, I don't think there is anything you can do about this situation. If she isn't ready, she isn't ready.<P>Another thought....while I know you're a great guy, maybe she really doesn't like you. I would find it incredibly hard to tell a person face to face "I don't like you." I would try to couch it in another phrase like..."I'm not ready" maybe....<P>Anyway, give it time. For you and for her. Maybe if you back off...way off...she'll come to realize that she DOES like you....who knows.<P>I think it just too soon to try to "save" another person, no matter how much they need saving.<P>Good luck....<BR>Aloha,<BR>Mrs.O<P>PS....I'm not sure it's too soon to date for you...you've been separated for a year and a half.....that's pretty long. But the "repeating pattern" of saving someone...that's what I'd look at....<p>[This message has been edited by Mrs.O (edited June 13, 2001).]

BrambleRose,<P>Very good point. What first attracted me to this new woman though, was that from the outside she didn't need to be fixed at all - she seemed strong, independent, self-confident, good self-esteem. To be honest, everything my wife was not. This new woman is in fact totally different than any other girl I have ever dated before and not just my wife. She is a breath of fresh air.<P>Now about my healing. It has been a long, long road for me. We (x and I) had been having problems for about 2 years (married for ~4.5). When my wife really approached me about our problems, I looked deep inside of myself and realized that a lot of our issues were in fact caused by me. I had indeed changed in to someone I did not want to be. I began to rediscover who I really was. I dedicated myself to getting back to the man I was and wanted to be. Each day for the past 2 years I worked on myself and on my marriage. Each day my wife pulled further and further away. Not to get too in to it, but my wife had her own set of issues, except she was never strong enough to work on fixing them (and in the end I believe they lead to our marriage's destruction).<P>So basically for the past two years I have been alone - so alone. I did everything to honor my vows, even while I watched my wife break all of hers right before my eyes. I never resorted to anger - I worked through all the pain that came daily. I went through all the stages. Throughout it all I focused on bettering myself and who I was spiritually and emotionally. By the time my divorce came around I was physically exhausted. I tried, and tried and prayed and tried... to no avail - or so I thought. Once the divorce was final, I felt a peace come over me - one that still resides with me today. So while God may have not answered my prayer to save my marriage, He did grant me His peace, as if He was saying "Mike you did your best - there is nothing left for you to do. You need to now pick up your life and begin to live again"...<P>I search my soul a lot and I truly believe I have healed my heart - at least as much as I can, for my xwife will always have a piece of it with her. No matter what happens, she will always hold a special place in my heart. I don't hate, I don't have anger. I still miss her every once in a while, but overall I feel OK. Will the emotions sweep over me sometime in the future, there is a good chance they may, kind of like a rubber band effect, but when they do, I know I will be strong enough to handle them.<P>I know I wrote a lot here - thank you for asking me that question - I just wrote a lot of things here that I have not thought about in quite a while...<P>Mike<P>------------------<BR>God always waits for the right time to do the right thing in the right way.

GnomeDePlume,<P>You guys are giving me a lot to think about here! That is good! "How can I have faith in someone new, if I give up my faith in my wife"? hmmmmmm.......<P>Well I guess first off, I never gave up faith in my wife. Up until the day of our divorce I prayed she would change her mind - that she would "wake up". Even now part of me hopes that maybe she will change her mind one day. But I can't change any of it - nothing I can do will change her heart. Not even God can change her heart. Only she can do that. So then do I stay single for the rest of my life waiting and hoping she will come around? If you asked me this about 6 months ago, my answer probably would have been "yes". But since everything was finalized, I feel different.<P>I feel called to have a family - a wife and children. I'm young enough to learn from my marriage and to use that in future relationships. From an emotional and mental point of view, I have come to terms with the possibility of finding someone new, dating and possibly getting married. All that is left is my religious point of view. If I were to follow the strict rules of Catholicism, I stand a good chance of proving a "marriage" never existed through an annulment. But what does that mean in God's eyes?<P>To be 100% honest, I don't know. I have prayed and prayed about it, but I can't seem to get a specific answer. I listen for his reply but it has yet to come. There are guys in this world who feel called to be "jerks" - there are guys in this world who are called to be single (ie. priests) and there are guys in this world who are called to be family men. The latter is where I believe I fit in...<P>The "other side" of divorce is no fun (sorry to tell some of you this) - It really isn't. I don't want to be here - I'd give anything to be back with my wife. But it was 100% not my decision. I would have worked on "us" for the next 10 years if that was what it took.<P>Now back to the new woman - Stacey. Guys don't get me wrong here, I am not saying I am going to marry this girl - I really don't even know if it would work out if we both tried. It was she who initiated the whole "relationship" to begin with, which is what lead me to believe she was ready to persue something.<P>She does like me. It is in her actions and it is from what she has told me AND her girlfriends. I am not looking to "fix" her - my question I guess is whether there is anything I could do or say to gain her trust.<P>I agree to back off and let her be. And I know there are those of you here that may think it is too soon for me, but there is just something about her? I don't fall for the first woman I see - I am actually very picky. This whole thing happened out of the blue and was unexpected - I wasn't even "looking" for someone.<P>Oh I don't know - I'm just a little confused by women sometimes....<P>Mike<P>------------------<BR>God always waits for the right time to do the right thing in the right way.

You're confused about women! HA! It's us that are confused about you guys!<P>Anyway....I just want to say, I feel very proud to "know" you in that you DID do what it took to keep your vows to your wife, even thru all that. I know exactly what that means. My H has been gone over 1-1/2 years and lives with the OW. I'm STILL not divorced, nor do I believe in dating/sex/whatever until the divorce is final. (Not that I think there's any chance of reconciliation at this point...) So I don't think it's too soon for you to date. <P>I think the best thing you can do is be a man of your word. If you said you'd back off, then you will. That will give her the time she says she needs. Let her be the one to re-open the relationship. Then, who knows!?!?<P>Good luck.<BR>Aloha,<BR>Mrs.O<BR>

Mike...<P>Well..I am not yet divorced..but you know my story..so I'll try the advice thing...<P>Give her time..step back away from the relationship..and don't get so wraped up in her that you forget who you are..you may appear to "needy" to her..I know that in many ways you are starved for attention..the undivided attention of someone of the opposite sex..because it has been so long..but..don't let her "become" your life..continue going out and doing things on your own and with your friends...and don't talk to her every day..try talking every few days...and go out with other women also..and you may find that you find someone else..that you like more..<BR>or you may find that by giving each other space to be individuals and "just" date..and don't put so many pressures into it being a serious relationship it works out for you...<P>I know that after my first divorce..I didn't date the way I felt I should..I met my now husband before the divorce was final..and he was just there..and I didn't have any room to breath..so take your time..and don't think that you "need" to talk to her everyday...I know you may want too..but take the time that you would spend talking to her..and talk to God about what it is you want in a relationship...talk to Him about your day..the way you want to talk to her..and then when you do talk to her..you won't appear to be so needy..

Hi Mike, <P>Ok....I think there is different kinds of healing. I'm not trying to start the great "ok to date" debate over again...I'm just going to ask you what I will continue to ask myself as I go through this process. So let me explain what I think.<P>First off...you got an experience of getting to know someone beneath the surface. Lets see, how about a totally male analogy....you are out car shopping...and there is this totally awesome shiney perfect hot rod - on the outside it meets your expectations and desires perfectly. This could be the car for you...so you decide to invest a little more time...and check it out further. See where I am going? Now upon discovery that the engine or the transmission is a bit faulty...you have to make a decision. Is it really broke? Or is it a minor problem? Is the price right? <P>Ok the analogy breaks down a bit...but still...now, are you going to cling to the car, ignoring the faults, buy it anyway, and be frustrated for the rest of your ownership of the vehicle and say "I just don't understand why it wouldn't run properly - I am a good driver!" Or are you going to walk away, and look for a better investment of your time and resources, that meets your needs?<P>On the topic of healing...I suspect from what you are saying that you really aren't that healed yet. Here's why I think that...and if I'm totally off base...say so, because I won't be offended! This is just MY understanding of the healing process....<P>Mike, I've been separated from my H for over a year now. I've been emotionally alone all of my marriage. Until this April, I was completely focused, body mind and soul, on saving my marriage...or hoping that a miracle would happen. I finally filed for divorce, and took the focus off rescuing my marriage and focus on my H and his problems, and put my focus on me. It's only been a couple of months!! <P>Now, I'm at peace. I do know that my divorce is inevitable, and while its not what I want, I do accept it. So in that sense, I have experienced GREAT healing. Am I healed in a way that makes me ready to participate in another relationship though? Absolutely not!! Now you would think, after 16 months of separation, I'd be well on my way to emotional readiness for dating. But I'm not, because all of this time...my focus was on saving my marriage, and being a good wife, and doing what I needed to do to give my marriage every last chance. <P>I need time, to be me, to learn about me, to learn about what I want, to focus on me as an individual, and to learn what I did wrong in my past so that when I am attracted to an individual, I know how to ask the questions that I didn't the first time around.<P>So you've accepted the reality that you are divorced and your marriage is over. Thats a great milestone in healing. But being ready as a whole person ... that's a different kind of healing.<P>That's why I asked what I asked...because you have spent all this time focused on your X, and now focused on the new girl....where is the focus on Mike? Are you comfortable in your own skin yet? Maybe you are...and I'm asking questions that you have already answered.<P>I just thought I'd throw that out tho.<P>------------------<BR><I>Pain is a given, misery is optional.</I><p>[This message has been edited by BrambleRose (edited June 13, 2001).]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SoTired2000:<BR><B><P>Oh I don't know - I'm just a little confused by women sometimes....<P>Mike<BR></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P><B><I>DING!!!</B></I> <P>Perhaps a little space is what she needs. Give her a chance to put things in perspective, and a little freedom. Sometimes backing off gives them the opportunity to appreciate that there are a few of us out there who are "good" guys...<P>If not, then it probably wasn't meant to be...<P>Don't get me wrong, I can only imagine how hard it must be to find a "keeper", and let her go, but you have to let her find her feelings on her own. You can't find them for her...<P>Take care...<P>------------------<BR>nick<P>it's only time that heals the pain <BR>and makes the sun come out again

_________________________________________________________<BR>Sometimes backing off gives them the opportunity to appreciate that there are a few of us out there who are "good" guys...<BR>________________________________________________________<P><BR>Mike & Nick...You are some of the "good guys" I wish I'd have waited on the Lord to lead into my life, but instead I felt I had to settle...partly because of what I was told..but mostly what I believed inside about myself..that I wasn't worthy of being loved by a "good guy" someone who would respect me..<P>But don't give up hope..I know that one day...you will be both posting here saying...OLD TIMER POST!!! GUESS WHAT...<BR>I'M GETTING MARRIED!!! we've been through all the Emotional needs questionaires..and we have discussed the POJA..and all the other MB things...and it will be wonderful for both of you...because I know that I have read your posts over the past year..and have seen how much both of you have grown, struggled..and healed..and have both been a great encouragment for me in knowing that there really are wonderful caring men out there who don't use and abuse women..so don't be in any rush to jump into anything..wait on the Lord..and trust that He knows whats best for you..<P>And I don't think it will be five years before this happens..

Mike,<P>Your answer is in <B> Part 3, ENTER THE SACRED FIRE:<BR>the journey toward intimacy: </B> <I> Chapter 23, Remember, First Dates are just a moment in time </I><P><I> When a man and a woman who are destined to marry happily meet, they feel right together almost at once. Certainly they experience no dark undertones-it is an experience flooded with daylight </I> Catherine Johnson, <I> Lucky in Love </I><P><BR>page 112:<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> As a couples therapist, I have seen repeatedly that the misgivings felt on the first few dates still permeated the relationship twenty years later. As Catherine Johnson writes, a good relationship feels "flooded by daylight." <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Mike, she is having the misgivings, you have to let her go to see if she comes back to you.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> Remember, on the spiritual path, we don't "do it right," we do it naturally, with curiousity and a light heart. Of course we have hopes, but on the path, acceptance is paramount. Put forth an honest effort and let go of the outcome. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Mike, sorry to say, you can't force the relationship, or she will not be with you naturally. to be with you naturally, she will come back.<P>Mike, and for everyone going back into the dating scene,<BR><B> if the Buddha dated A handbook for Finding Love on a Spiritual Path </B> by Charlotte Kasl, PhD. is your answer.<P>It has every answer i know of, red flags within you, within your date, etc. <P>Oh, yes, Mike, my XW is using that excuse also, i was a workaholic, which i was, but we also agreed to that 10 years ago. I didn't listen to her, but she only spoke to me with anger and in a LB manner, no other way, but now i am on a long vacation 7 months, and may never have to work for someone else again, if i play my cards right. <P>My parents both lived as vbery dedicated workers, they both understood it. my mom saw her dad work as a druggist in a small town, and my dad saw his dad work to get through the depression.<P>My X saw her parents and grandparents criticize the hard working, white collar class to make themselves feel better. <BR>Mike, there are women who understand a hard working, workaholic, and there are others who do not. you need to find one that does, <B> NATURALLY! </B><P>Mike, i scanned an excellent section of the book into adobe acrobat, send me your email address to <P>whenifindthetime@yahoo.com, and i will send it to you.<P>Otherwise, the book has just about all the spiritual answers you are looking for.<P>tom<P>right now, it is my dating bible, as well as cinderella's, i think. You can ask for her opinion on the book also. I have just about finished it.<P>BTW, since i did the workaholic lifestyle, i have decided to never bring work home unless necessary, and as long as i find a spiritual equal, i won't have to.<P>good luck, but that book is well worth the read, you won't need counseling, it is all in there if you can do the reading, and rereading.<P><BR><p>[This message has been edited by WhenIfindthetime (edited June 13, 2001).]

SoTired2000<P>Wow. I congratulate you for being an optimist and still looking for the best in people despite what you've sufferred.<P>You can't fix or solve everyone's problems out there. I sometimes find myself reaching out and helping others because it's easier than trying to solve my own problems. <P>You can't "make" her ready. I was hurt deeply by my biological father, rejected etc... When I was nine I was sexually molested by a friend of the family (what a guy!) I lost my first love in a drive by during Xmas holidays at eighteen and dated then married my xH on the rebound, who, never got over his first W or what she did to him (found her in bed w/ his best friend - right?) and always held me at arms length. I built a wall so high and so thick around myself that I couldn't even climb out. And as for appearing strong and self-assured etc... I'm a master at it. Illusion is not difficult at all because most people see what they want to see and hear what they want to hear. Then my mother's illness (cancer, deceased now) set off the fireworks - ripped off the scab so to speak and my entire life crashed (included an A, me being the WS/OW). I felt so incredibley alone and so vulnerable and even though that was not good, sometimes things happen for a reason. The wall came tumbling down. I learned to pick and choose my friends and they've become my family. It's been a year since both my parents passed away, ten months since the divorce and six weeks since the end of the A. I'm healing. A wonderful man has come, or I should say is trying to come into my life, but as much as I like him, I'm just not ready and that's what I told him. <P>She needs time to heal. And so do you.<P>Have patience.<BR>

Mike,<P>As one of the recently divorced (May 4th) who IS ready to enter the dating world again..."I'm not ready" is a huge yellow blinking caution light. <P>It could mean literally "she's not ready"...<BR>it could mean she doesn't like you as much as you think but she doesn't want to hurt your feelings...<BR>it could mean she's carrying around huge amounts of baggage...<BR>it could mean you scared the bejeesus out of her by coming across a little emotionally needy yourself after having been alone for a long time...<BR>or it could mean something else entirely...<P>but no matter what...it's a huge blinking yellow caution light that says Mike needs to back away...a lot. You don't want to smother her...if it will work out - she has to be willing to meet you half way...otherwise it is not meant to be. No matter how badly you don't want to be alone. I don't mean to sound hopeless...I really do empathize.<P>Give her some space any maybe things will work out the way you want.<P>Lisa

OK I've done some soul searching and one thing that I think is true is that I probably did "scare" her. Looking at myself from an outsider's point of view it is very apparent that I am needy right now. But not because of any thoughts of my marriage or my wife, but rather because I am lonely and I have been alone so long.<P>BrambleRose,<BR>When I say I spent the past 1.5 years working on my marriage, I may have not been clear - During that time I was 'alone' - my wife had already left. When I say I worked on my marriage, most of that work was spent doing just what you mention - rediscovering myself, spending time alone, learning about who I was, evaluating what I may have done wrong in the marriage, and learning again who I wanted to be. Sure these things were technically me working on myself, but to me I had to fix myself before I could fix my marriage. Since my wife moved away out of state, all I could do was communicate with her via emails and letters. Both were very cathartic - writing definitely helps clear my mind and soul. I wrote and wrote and wrote - letters she received and some were never sent. One thing that I left out in this discussion is level of faith that returned in my life. Above everything else I did in the past couple years, I placed God first in my life - above everything else. Going through my divorce it became "easy" (for lack of a better word) to handle things and make decisions because all I needed to do was ask "What would Jesus Do". Now don't get me wrong, I'm human and sometimes even knowing what I was supposed to do, I would "accidentally" do the opposite. But even though I stumbled, overall I tried to do my best to stick to His path.<P>While I lost the most important person in my life, I can not begin to tell you how much I have grown since this all began. I CHOSE to use what I was going through as a learning and growing experience - I'm so glad I did. That is why I feel that while I do still have some healing to do (I'm not blind), overall I feel stronger, more in-control and better suited to handle what life throws at me.<P>THEN, I meet the first woman I like (more than attraction) and I realize how lonely I am. Kind of like if you haven't eaten Ice Cream in 3 years then one day you get a great scoop - next thing you know, that craving kicks in big time. I think that is what happened, now that I take a step back. I probably scared the beegeesus out of her!!! Oh well like I said, it is all a learning experience. <P>I will give her time. But it is also not like I was attached or anything to her - I just really liked her (even before the craving for attention kicked in). I never look at any relationship as truly over - I have remained friendly with every woman/girl I have ever dated. And I even left my marriage as a man telling my wife that while I didn't agree with anything she was doing, I would not stand in her way and I was mature til the end.<P>Thornedrose,<P>You are right, I am needy. And I am lonely. I didn't realize how much until I began liking this woman. It wasn't fair to her to want so much, so soon in a relationship. I will back off for now, while letting her know that if she decides to try again, I would be willing... And you give great advice about "whom" I should be talking to! I never even thought about talking to Him instead of calling her - What a great tip - right under my nose and never even thought of doing that! Thanks.<P>Guys, it really doesn't get any easier on "this side" of the D, sorry to say....<P>Mike<P>------------------<BR>God always waits for the right time to do the right thing in the right way.

Mike-<BR>I love your analogy about the ice cream. I went through something very similar right after my divorce with a recently divorced man myself. One thing that made it so great was the fact that he was SOOO different from my ex. He owned his own business, was secure, manly, rugged, down to earth. The contrast whetted my appetite. A lot of it had to do with the craving for companionship I felt, the idea that "here is a good one that I don't want to lose." Silly me. <P>I don't think you are trying to "save her" when you say "save the relationship," gut I do sense a feeling of urgency not to lose "such a great woman." I can relate to that. But the best thing you can do is to just be her friend. Great relationships begin as friendships. I firmly believe that God puts people in our lives for reasons. It may not be that she is in your life to be your destined soul mate, but for other reasons that you can't comprehend right now. You could end up with a great friend through all of this. Later, who knows what could happen.

Mike,<P>Ok, so I am not an already divorced woman, but I do know what you are going through and it's all just part of the process. I agree that the best relationships evolve from friendships so I would recommend that you always try to start off any new relationship as being friends first.<P>I know that you have been apart from your wife now for over a year and the divorce has only been final for two months, but are <B>YOU</B> really ready to date yourself? You said you were lonely and I can relate to that, but you have to ask yourself if you are looking for someone new to "fill a void" or if you are just looking for a friend and a way to start your future. <P>You made the following statement in an earlier response which made me raise an eyebrow.....<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SoTired2000:<BR><B>The "other side" of divorce is no fun (sorry to tell some of you this) - It really isn't. I don't want to be here - I'd give anything to be back with my wife. But it was 100% not my decision. I would have worked on "us" for the next 10 years if that was what it took.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I know how dedicated you were to your wife and your marriage, and like you, this was 100% not our choice. But are you still willing to give <B>anything</B> to be with your wife? If you are, then you really shouldn't be dating. Those "what if" questions are going to be with us for a long time, but we both really need to be honest with ourselves when it comes to knowing the answer to that question. It really is not fair for us to get involved in a new relationship if we are still wishing for our wives to return. But don't confuse the "wishing" with true desire.<P>I think it is more difficult for those of us who were left behind to let go of that "what if" scenario since it was not our choice to leave. But we need to ask ourselves why we would even consider taking our spouses back after the way they have behaved and the way we were treated during the whole ordeal. In all honesty, one of my big reasons for still holding onto the "what if" idea in my mind is simply the thought that if my ex were to return, then all of the pain and heartache of the past year would be erased, but we know that is not true. I also can't help thinking that since I was the one left behind that I somehow failed as a husband and if she were to return, then I would be able to "fix" what was broken in the first place and could get the burden of being a failure off my shoulders.<P>Both of these thoughts seem silly, but they are there nonetheless. I know that if my ex were to return, it would not be easy, it would take work and there would be conditions. Even now, I can’t honestly say one way or another as to my response if she attempted a return to my life, but I know it would not be easy. Thinking logically, why would anyone make the decision to walk into a relationship based on conditions?<P>I know that I got off on a tangent here and strayed from your original topic, but I really want you to look deep at both your reasons for dating and your feelings for your ex wife. If you really want your ex back, than being with someone new is like making this new person #2 in your life and that really isn't fair to either of you.<P>In regard to your new friend, I think giving her some space and some time is the best thing to do here. She was burned in the past and probably is scared. No matter what her reasons for saying that it wasn't going to work out, be thankful. Just think how much heartache our wives would have saved us if they had been so honest with us years ago....<P>Shawn <P><P>------------------<BR><I>We must be willing to get rid of the life we've planned, so as to have the life that is waiting for us.</I><P>~Joseph Campbell

Shawn,<P>I think sometimes I write so fast I don't express correctly how I feel. As it pertains to my Xwife returning: When I say I don't want to be here - I mean that these circumstances were not in my control - they were cast upon without consent or desire. Sure I would be a fool if sometimes I wish I could just blink my eyes and go back in time 3 years when I was married, before the problems really erupted. But even then, what could I do different?<P>The issue of my xwife returning is not so much that I would drop everything and say "welcome home dear" - gag! It would be a process just as if I met someone "new" and we began dating. It would HAVE to be that way. I couldn't just disregard her actions and deeds. At the same time, besides what my xwife did to me in the months/years preceding our divorce, as a woman - I loved her. If someone came along with many of her qualities, I would find myself being drawn to her as well. My xwife just had a lot of the qualities I look for in a woman.<P>And as for conditions, I don't think I would outwardly place any on either of us - for that would only complicate things as you mentioned. One thing about me is that I am a VERY forgiving person. While it may take time if someone really hurts me, in the end I still forgive and in most cases can forget as well. It is something I am very thankful for being able to do, for I know there are many people who have difficulty with true forgiveness. <P>So if the X showed up out of the blue and began to talk about "us", it would have to begin just like any other relationship. And I write here, knowing that if something like this did happen, I have absolutely NO idea on how it would REALLY happen! None of us do.<P>Am I ready to date? Really ready? One word - Yes. I have 100% no doubt in my mind about that. Will it be hard? Yes. Will there be learning involved? Most certainly. But I KNOW for me, I am ready. <P>If I dated someone knew and my x came back into the picture - just as if I was dating someone and another "Ms. RightForMe" came along, I would then have to decide to stay in the current relationship or end that one and try with the new woman. Whether "Ms. RightForMe" was my xwife or some new woman wouldn't make a difference. Make sense?<P>But the bottom line is that once I get past the initial phases of dating - meaning we are boyfriend/girlfriend, my trust and loyalty then become centered upon her and no one else. It would take a lot and I mean a lot for me to turn around and accept any attempts to reconcile by my xwife or a former girlfriend (or anyone new for that matter). I have been in situations like this before. While I was not married at the time, a few girls whom I had previously seriously dated, decided to try and re-enter my life at a time when I was involved with someone new. In every case, while confusion set-in for a little while, I chose to honor the person I was currently with. I used to kid around by saying "you only get one shot at the big-time!" <P>Above all I three qualities are a must in my relationships:<BR>Trust<BR>Loyalty<BR>Honesty<P>All three must be earned, but more importantly all three must be "given" before they can be received. So if I value all these things I need to express them myself and I do with every relationship I begin and enter in to...<P>GSD,<BR>Don't say it! The "friend" word! Oh how that word brings back bad memories "can't we just be friends". "I like you as a friend".....ugggghhh I know what you are saying. And like everyone here has said - give it time. Patience in all things. Boy and I thought I was over being impatient - I've had 2 years to work on it - guess I still have some ways to go!!!<P>Thanks!<P>God Bless,<BR>Mike<P>------------------<BR>God always waits for the right time to do the right thing in the right way.

Mike,<P>I understand completely both your desire to start dating and your ability to rationalize the past few years of your life. I agree 100% that any attempt by an ex to come back to our lives must be treated as a new relationship with a new person. I'm like you in my ability to forgive someone, even where there was pain involved, but being able to trust that person again is something that would have to be earned over time.<P>You and I continue to heal, progress and grow at about the same pace. Believe me when I tell you that nothing I have ever asked or questioned you about are issues that I haven't already been dealing with myself. I'm pretty sure that you understand that already, but in asking you some of the difficult questions and pointing out the obvious, it helps me to clear things in my own mind. Then reading your responses and seeing how you handle these same situations helps give me some needed perspective sometimes. <P>The journey continues.......<P> <P>------------------<BR><I>We must be willing to get rid of the life we've planned, so as to have the life that is waiting for us.</I><P>~Joseph Campbell

Mike-<P>Yup, the friend thing pretty much sucks, I know. Expecially when we have been dealing with people who tell us that they aren't in love with us any more. They love us, but there is no spark..isn't that how a friend feels?? At any rate, you made a point about if your ex would return that you would treat it like any other relationship. Yes, I can see that to an extent: you would date, take things slow, communicate, rediscover what it was that drew you together in the first place--similar to what you would do with a new love. Doubtful you would pick her up for the first date and run her to dinner and then the church for vows--maybe a movie afterward. <P>The problem with that idea (and I am not picking on you) is that with Stacey, there is potential. With Amanda, there is history--even in spite of the pain. That is a powerful draw. So when you say there isn't a difference, I disagree. What you are saying is that you are ready for a relationship with anyone including your ex or anyone since you are equating them the same. In other words, you are just as ready to explore the possibilities of a new relationship with someone new as you would be with your ex? I hope I am understanding what you are saying. My question now is which draw is stronger-- potential or history? <P>I am fortunate that I can honestly say that if my ex were to come back, I would unequivocally say that I did not even want to pursue the possibility. The person with whom I am somewhat involved cannot make that determination, so I am taking a chance with each passing day that he and I grow closer. We had a discussion about this just last week and he said the "friend thing." Not as a suggestion, but as one of the many possibilities or routes to take. I am an adult and ultimately know that there is a possibility that his lack of closure and our lack of committment to one another (the latter a status quo that I am happy with) could result in me getting hurt. Stacey may not be willing to take that risk. Sometimes I am surprised that I am. <P>So here is a question: if you and your new friend were to grow together and your relationship were to develop into something more, would you be able to "honor the person" you are with if your wife were to return and then live without questions or what ifs or self doubts?? I couldn't imagine this young woman not recognizing the incredible risk of getting involved with you and having that contribute to here "running."<p>[This message has been edited by gsd (edited June 14, 2001).]