I've been reading thru your boards, and am in a situation that is very odd- I could use some advice!!! Can you help me?<P>I just turned 30. My STBX H and I would have been married 10 years....I found out from an anonymous phone call in January that he had an A with an employee- after lying all day, he finally admitted to her and only her. Still feeling like something wasn't right, I pushed and pushed, and finally 6 weeks later he told me that there were atleast 8 or 9- all within the past 5 years- all sexual (like cheap and nasty- 20 minutes here and there in cars at lunch!!! All with employees, coworkers or customers- i didn't know any of them)- he even had 3 going on at once this past year- and he said the last one ended in July of last year....<P>I immediately told him it was over- it is- I would never tolerate that- and his behaviour and disrespect for me even prior to all of that, was making me borderline ready to file anyway!!! I also come from a long line of cheaters- as does he- and AM NOT ABOUT TO LET MY CHILDREN (ages 11, 9 and 3- 2 boys and a girl) think that this is ok AT ALL!!!!<P>We both grew up in the church- and right now- I feel so betrayed by not only him- but God and the church as well!!!<P>The very same month that I turned my relationship with him over to God, he started his first affair....and thru all of this- NOT ONE PERSON FROM OUR CHURCH has called me or come by to pray with me- NOTHING!!!! It's like I'm contagious!!!<BR>He also had three in one state- and then feeling like it was God's will that we move- I left all of my family behind and he went on to conduct ATLEAST 6 more!! Was that God's will?????<P>My dilemma is this- he has turned his life over to God fully now- and while I was expecting him to jump for joy and run the other direction- he is running straight at me with LOVE????!!!! But it's TOO LATE FOR ME!!!! <P>No matter how hateful I am, or how I throw things, or tell him to "get his love off of me"- he tells me God has put him on a path to me and that's where he is going to stay- even if I divorce him- even if I remarry!!!!<P>Has this happened to anyone else? Was your spouse sincere? What happened???<P>I'm so confused now by this!! I SO want to soak up his love that he is finally offering- but I WILL NOT TRAVEL THIS PATH AGAIN!!!! I keep thinking how easy it was for him to throw me in the trash- and I don't know how I can compare 4 months to 10 years of lies and hurt!!<P>ANd I'm very afraid to get back into church too- I'm afraid to trust my judgement, I'm afraid to trust God, I'm afraid to trust Christains that SAY they are my friends but don't have a clue!! I'm afraid because apparently, I don't have a clue either- just a big LOSER stamped across my forehead!!!<P>There is so much more to all of this also- history- present circumstances- but this post is already long enough- maybe some other time I can share- I just don't have anyone to talk to about this- all of the people I know that have been in my shoes reconcile- but that is not what my plans are!!<P>Can anyone help????<BR>I appreciate any insight you can offer..<P>Too Late

Sigh.<P>Damn.<P>Shock.<P>Umm...<P>First things first, I am not a Christian. I am more of a deist. Look up what a deist believes if you wish. I was a deist before knowing what a deist was. I have attended church several times throughout my life and when trying to make my marriage work, but I do not believe in Jesus Christ. I do believe the bible contains a great deal of wisdom but was completely written by mortals with no help from God.<P>My lying, cheating, XW constantly found fault in me for not going to church and not believing in Christ. The OM and her do this a good bit I think. My daughter says that she prays for me. Get that. She prays for me. My morals are far above hers and many other so-called "Christians".<P>IMHO, the church and religion are little help. It is pretty much a fact that religion has little impact on preventing adultery. All too often, "Christians" say "give it to the Lord" when they have problems. I see it as sticking their heads in the sand. The "Christians" around you are so scared that your misfortune will rub off on them, you will find out that they don't know how to help you, you remind them of the same thing that happened in their life and don't want to face it, or they simply don't practice what they preach. The church is really good about teaching that adultery is wrong. The church is really bad about dealing with adultery when it happens. Our first counselor, a Christian one, didn't focus in on my Xs affair at all. She completely underestimated its impact on the marriage. As you will learn here, the marriage cannot be repaired until the affair ends. She also said that the man should always initiate sex. What's up with that? She played a tape of a lecture about it. In the end, she tried to get me to turn to Christ and let him handle it as she couldn't offer any more help. To her credit, I give her a gold star for telling me about "His Needs, Her Needs". I found my way here from that. I've read three of the books. A true Christian (very few are) would behave as Christ did and be right there for you. W.W.J.D.? (if there was a Christ) <P>As I believe that God doesn't intervene, you have to do what is right. That doesn't mean that God isn't watching and won't judge later. I admit that the thought of God being there for you is comforting, but I don't think it is true. I generally believe that God constructed the world in such a manner that good things come to people who do good things and bad things come to people who do bad thing; kinda like karma.<P>Again, IMHO. Bible thumper responses will be ignored. You have your beliefs, I have mine. We're probably both wrong anyway.<P>You are NOT the loser. People often think that someone cheats because their spouse was inadequate. That is completely wrong, especially with your husband. He has a real problem and cannot be trusted. He has only "found religion" now because he knows his little fantasy world is falling apart.<P>Only you can decide to end it. You have to live with your decision.<P>Learn everything you can here. Also read "Love Must be Tough" by Dobson. (a Christian book, BTW) Solid wisdom.<P>Surround yourself with your friends and family for comfort. Don't take their advice as it is probably wrong. Educate yourself and decide from there.<P>Kevin <P><p>[This message has been edited by father of 1, husband of 0 (edited June 20, 2001).]

1. If it is TRULY over, why are you here, and not in a support group for divorcees? I realize that this is a Divoring/Divorced forum, but most people here are the ones wanting to restore the marriage, by my read.<BR>2. If you have returned to God, then you KNOW that the marriage is His will. Yes, you will have to get past the lack of trust issue, and that will be difficult. The bottom line is that you just do it. You will have to fake it a little, I'm afraid. You won't get the brass ring if you don't take a chance.<BR>3. He is a real piece of work, isn't he? Marriage is supposeed to make you a better person, not a bitter person. Fix that. Regardless. Your marriage is in trouble, big time. What are YOU doing about it? Why does he have lunchtime affairs? Find out, and get that taken care of, as well. He isn't fundamentally flawed, just hurt, and confused, and he looks to you as both the cause and solution. That's not fair, but that's how it is.<BR>4. Go to <A HREF="http://www.restorem.org" TARGET=_blank>http://www.restorem.org</A> , get the Men's Restoration packet for him...he can 'prove it to you' by going through that. Get the women's restoration packet for you. This is Christian based marriage restoration, and the ministers there went through this...Dan divorced Erin, and had his OW for quite a while before they got back together, and created the ministry. Their church was similar, and she had to put up with A LOT to get him back, but she did, and they both wrote a lot about it. It is all based on the Bible, how cool is that?<P>I am sorry your husband thinks with the wrong organ, that is a shame, but despite the fact that sex is a primary need of men, we do not all run our lives on it...sometimes we DO run our marriages on it, though. Too bad for us. There is a valid reason for that. We (men) view life as a constant power struggle, and sex is power. If we don't get validation from men in power over us, we try to get it anyway we can, and that often equates to affairs. Hey, did he tell you it didn't mean anything? (Did that launch you into orbit? Sure it did.) What he meant to say is this:<BR> I have had a lot of self-doubt, and shame recently. I have felt as though I wasn't a real man. I've been beaten down by work, and our relationship is NOT as close as I'd like. I missed a lot of opportunities to make a connection with you because of this, and you do not feel close enough to me to make love. I feel rejected by this, and cheap. When I saw the opportunity for validation from another woman, I foolishly and thoughtlessly took it. I was weak.<BR> He isn't driven by the sex, he's driven by how it makes him feel, and he probably thinks you are withholding it (and more) from him. He doesn't know why. He is not wired up to 'get it', so you need to teach him how. Patiently.<P>He is seeing that he wants to come back to the marriage...can't you take that chance once more? If you do, and it doesn't work, you can say you did all you could to save the marriage, and God will release you from your bond...read the Bible, something like:<BR> If the unbeliever divorces the believer, the believer is released from their committment.<P>God wants you to believe in marriage, not just the institution, but your particular embodiment of it. Given that your marriage is where it is at now, what more are YOU willing to do? You are dancing around the WAW thing, here...if you refuse to work on it, it is over. He will try crawling, and you will be repulsed, because you have NO RESPECT for him now. That needs to be taken care of first. Please spare us all the 'I could never respect him again speech'. My XW is only now finding out that she can, and will respect me. I am not the one with the EA/PA, and guess what? I could respect her tomorrow (okay, maybe next week) if she'd get rid of the OM. I'm not saying that it would fix anything, but we could try after that.<P>My bottom line is this:<BR>If your H is truly motivated by God, and he is asking you to join him in the marriage, you are being selfish to refuse. This would not be the H you are thinking about. I am motivated a lot by my own situation, but man, this is the most pig-headed and selfish stuff I know of, next to abortion. Who are we to question His will...His plan? I wouldn't dream of asking you to stay with an adulterer, but adulterers are confused, and its best not to judge them too harshly. Forgiveness is a divine gift to you BOTH. Marriage is a vocation, not a party, or anything like that. BOTH of you are being asked to work to your mutual benefit. Will you answer the call? God bless you in any case, you have been through a lot, and there is more to come. Take care.<BR><p>[This message has been edited by waiting_for_her (edited June 20, 2001).]

BTW...Christians that act like that have a name: Pharisees.<P>Whatever you believe, or do not believe, it is hard to hold a position against marriage as an institution, regardless of statistics. What would our purpose be otherwise? If we are not charged divinely, then we are charged secularly. Two days before it went sour, most everyone will tell you the same. Hurt has a way of twisting us internally, and our ability to subjugate our needs disappears. That's a shame. I don't know of anyone here who would look at their children with those eyes, why would a spouse be any different? (Spare me the blood and water BS, please. That's an excuse to be lazy, self-serving, and ultimately, empty, and alone.)<P>No, God does not intervene, in my opinion. We do His work...He works through us. This is analogous to the interaction of the conscious/subconscious mind. If you want to take God out of it, fine...I will substitute your subconscious mind for God...it is the same thing to me. You are still charged by your value system to do the right thing, but you consciously ruminate in the negative. Your subconscious is only bringing that into being because you told it to. That is self-destructive behavior. (Christians, read that as THE DEVIL.) Yes, the writers of the Bible were not sophistocated enough to make the connection, but WE SHOULD BE BY NOW.<p>[This message has been edited by waiting_for_her (edited June 20, 2001).]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by waiting_for_her:<BR><B>BTW...Christians that act like that have a name: Pharisees.<P>Whatever you believe, or do not believe, it is hard to hold a position against marriage as an institution, regardless of statistics. What would our purpose be otherwise? If we are not charged divinely, then we are charged secularly. Two days before it went sour, most everyone will tell you the same. Hurt has a way of twisting us internally, and our ability to subjugate our needs disappears. That's a shame. I don't know of anyone here who would look at their children with those eyes, why would a spouse be any different? (Spare me the blood and water BS, please. That's an excuse to be lazy, self-serving, and ultimately, empty, and alone.)<P>No, God does not intervene, in my opinion. We do His work...He works through us. This is analogous to the interaction of the conscious/subconscious mind. If you want to take God out of it, fine...I will substitute your subconscious mind for God...it is the same thing to me. You are still charged by your value system to do the right thing, but you consciously ruminate in the negative. Your subconscious is only bringing that into being because you told it to. That is self-destructive behavior. (Christians, read that as THE DEVIL.) Yes, the writers of the Bible were not sophistocated enough to make the connection, but WE SHOULD BE BY NOW.<P>[This message has been edited by waiting_for_her (edited June 20, 2001).]</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Whoa, hold it. Please don't mix threads. The marriage thread I started does not apply here. Besides, I was asking a question (look at the title) as well as making a statement as well as generally being in a really bad mood. The responses really helped me. I felt energized when heading off to work today.<P>I do believe in marriage. I believe in it so much that I did everything I could to keep mine.<P>I generally agree with your post.<P>

I don't think it is too late for you and your marriage. Try to find a different church...there is one in my local area that actually is for divorced people. They have tons of small groups and help with people having marital problems and do not look down on divorcing or working thru the marriage. The book Torn Asunder is directed towards Christian infidilty. There is a Web site where a woman has gone thru the same things you have. Her name is Jane and I think the website is related to her name. Some churches even have couples who have gone thru your sitiation and they are available to counsel couples like you. Have you looked into counseling? Not just for your marriage but for you it would help you sort out all of these feelings you have. I hope some of this info will help guide you in a direction that is helpful.

I'm sorry that you feel I was continuing that diatribe, I wasn't. What I was doing was trying to help another person who I felt shared my viewpoint. I posted that, and left it there. It should come as no surprise that I post something similar here, its the way I feel about it.

I guess I have come to the wrong forum??<P>"If your H is truly motivated by God, and he is asking you to join him in the marriage, you are being selfish to refuse. This would not be the H you are thinking about. I am motivated a lot by my own situation, but man, this is the most pig-headed and selfish stuff I know of, next to abortion. Who are we to question His will...His plan? I wouldn't dream of asking you to stay with an adulterer, but adulterers are confused, and its best not to judge them too harshly. Forgiveness is a divine gift to you BOTH. Marriage is a vocation, not a party, or anything like that. BOTH of you are being asked to work to your mutual benefit. Will you answer the call?"<P>I have spent 10 years doing and being everything I could for this man- and longer than THAT serving God!!!! I don't have the energy for one more try- and at what point again? Do I get to shut down? Maybe be selfish????? He spent almost 6 of our 10 years lying to me, attending church like joe christain, and leaving ME to hold the bags, run the family, manage the finances, play with the kids, initiate sex, plan vacations, etc., etc.....YOUR RESPONSE TO ME IS THE SAME STUPID RESPONSE I GOT FROM EVERY PASTOR AND CHURCH GOING FRIEND!!!!! Who am I to questions God's will and timing- well- GUESS WHAT???? I DO!!!!!! Once again, I'm struggling with my faith and no with ending my joke of a marriage, and I'm still getting "pat" answers???<P>Apparently I came to the wrong place for help-<P>I guess that the people on this board are only for marriage, wanting to stay married and have had spouses that have left THEM...I'm sorry my situation is reversed <BR>I was always faithful to him, I always loved him, and love him now- does that mean I will travel the same path twice with him? NO- does that make me stupid and selfish- apparently!!!<P>I'm very confused about what has happened to him, to our lives, and now how I AM SUPPOSED TO BE THE ONE TO FIX IT????<BR>Hello????<P>I was simply wondering if there was anyone else out there who had been in my situation, and what they did about it??<P>I guess I won't find the help that I need here? <P>I'm sorry<P>Too Late<BR> <P>

oops...I guess you did, but really...it IS called Marriage Builders.<P>BUT PLEASE HOLD ON A MINUTE BEFORE YOU GO, there's some more that you haven't realized. I am divorced NOW, you are not. While I want my marriage restored, I would not, for example, go to my XW's apartment 400 yards away, wake her and OM up, and try to work it out.<P>I do understand your frustration...I was married for 18 years, and the last 10, she was gone, had an affair, all ALL kinds of other stuff...just like your situation. These are NOT pat answers, and do not minimalize the conviction of character of someone who is doing EXACTLY what you say you did. I know you feel hurt, rejected, worthless, etc., but how do you think I feel? Now, if I didn't offer you some ways to fix it, then it would be pat answers, but I DID do that, and I can show you where to find more. Did you even bother to visit the website, or did you just get pi$$ed at me for trying?<P>Finally, I am not one to judge you, I am sorry for that, but please don't judge me, either. You came here, and asked for answers, don't shoot the messenger just because you don't like the answers. Done? Fine, divorce the bum, and move on, but please save your venom for someone else...you don't even know me, nor I you.<P>Take care, and God bless. You are hurt, and I am truly sorry for your pain.

I am a christian and a friend of mine went through this same thing with her husband. The only difference is that our church helped her mentally and spiritually. <BR>Your husband was searching for something (as in all cheaters). He tried to find it in women, but was never fulfilled. Until he found his true relationship with God. My friends husband realized that she was the one person who loved him unconditionally. He believed that God put them together and he stuck it out for 2 years before she realized that he had changed. As for your church, I can tell you that sometimes when you are going through a situation people tend to act like it will rub off on them if they hang around long enough (even christians). Just because people go to church does not mean that they are saved. A lot of people at church are trying to figure out their own problems. Get professional counseling, seek God and not the church.

Sorry I dont know what to say for your situation. I am struggling with faith myself. Raised Catholic, not gone to mass in many yrs. It felt all superficial. <P>My H tells me its "too late". give me the impression hes just hanging around to take care of some details & then he's out the door. We sleep in separate rooms etc. though I am still the cook & laundry doer. I have no living family & am an only child. I really feel I have nowhere to turn to. So I started begging God. Please save this marriage. I have changed some, but otherwise we are still in the same place we were 6 weeks ago. I feel like I am in hell. <P>I think those who can have an almost 'blind' faith can be very comforted by it. I realize I am still attaching expectations to my requests. I want so much to "give it up to God". For all this pain & despair & lonliness & fear etc to be gone. I want my H to not be influenced by all the uncaring manipulative selfish coworkers he seeks advice from. But nothing has changed. I bought the book "Power of a Praying Wife" by Stormie OMartian. I felt better for a bit, but I want results NOW. I ask to recognize signs but there are none that I can see.<P>Theres a little story, kind of a joke that goes around that Gary Zukav, author of "Seat of the Soul" said on Oprah the other day.<BR>It goes something like this:<BR>A man is out at sea drowning,when someone comes by in a rowboat & offers to help. The man does not get in, & says "God will save me". He is still struggling when a sailboat comes by. Again the man does nothing & says "God will save me". Later the coastguard comes by and again the man says "God will save me". The man drowns. When he meets God in heaven he is angry & asks why didnt you save me? God said "I did, I sent you a rowboat, a sailboat & the coastguard!"<P>So how the heck does a person recognize signs? I am not seeing any. I try to be forgiving, but feel so betrayed, it keeps coming back at me. I have not read that soul book but I may go find it. It isnt really a religious book for Christians. Its a little bit more just general spiritual, but he does believe in reincarnation of the soul I think, so that might annoy most people. I will post separately what he said on his website about forgiveness. <P>I think people desperately need something to cling to for sustenance. For many that is religious faith. I wonder if your H isnt just manipulating things though?

I'm sorry...<P>Yes I am irritated- not just at you- but at my whole situation..<P>You are right- I don't belong here-<P>My husband is the cheater, and gave up on us a long time ago- and although I was born and raised in the church- I'm not going to stay married to him and possibly travel the same path twice..<P>I just didn't know if there were others out there that had this kind of role reversal- or that maybe divorced, dated and remarried...<P>I just don't fit in anywhere- other sites it's just the opposite- and I'm not hateful- and love him- I just am so confused-<P>I see now that I don't fit in here either though- because, yes, hence the name- Marriage Builders- this is a site for my STBX- he is the one wanting me now <P>It's ok that you posted the truth to me, and it's truth from your experience...I just feel like my faith obviously must not be too great because I AM struggling, etc...<P>Thank you for the time you have spent on this!<P>Too Late??

ps- that last post was for waiting_for_her...<P>Thank you for your replies hearing and cantletgo- <P>Hearing- your example of your friends is what I was wondering about?? I guess I just feel so like I need to close the chapter on the last ten years- and if it takes a little piece of paper from the judge, then maybe that is so??<P>I DESPERATELY need to get this figured out!!<P>I feel too emotionally vulnerable to make wise decisions- or even the decision to "let him win" and stay married...<P>I just can't believe he has love for me know! What kind of rotten timing is that? I could have used that 6 years ago!!! I don't want to feel like "ive settled" or like he is manipulating me by pretending to be serving God now- and that it will change in a year!!<P>Thanks again to you all- I'm not sure I fit on this site- I just don't know where I belong??<P>

See, I was thinking you do belong here. I'm not trying to tell you you didn't try...or even that you are being selfish. Do you mind if I make a few observations? I can start another thread if you want. I'm not asking you to take him back...really, but there is some inconsistency to what you have posted.<P> Your handle is Too Late For Me?????, which I believe is a question, not a statement of fact. Understand that I am a man, too, and you might not like having this laid out in a male fashion. I can't help that too much, so I am sorry in advance this time.<P>Your faith is normal...I go through that, too...I no longer expect my faith to be perfect, just something I work on. Like agape love. Like I said, its difficult to love someone that is having a PA three weeks after the D, in the presence of 4 children. Very difficult.<P>The rotten timing is what it is, rotten, but it is rotten not only because of him, but because of you, too. I think that he would not 'win', but both of you would, wouldn't you? You stated that you love him, I'm sure you hate the lying and cheating, who wouldn't? I said before if he TRULY returned to God...which would mean a year from now, you'd both be in a better place, not in the same place...sorry for not making that distinction earlier.<P>Lastly, it is possible for you to annihialate the OR, and start a new one, its just not easy, and you are exhausted. You said that you were confused (natural), and didn't feel like you should be making these kinds of decisions now, and I agree...don't decide for, or against now. Explore what you said to Hearing. You should probably separate now, and see what happens, that satisfies BOTH options.<P>Relax, and let it go for a bit. Concentrate on you...oddly enough, that's the same advice, too. Take care.<BR>

Although I understand what you are talking about- I have to say, I don't think it is for me at all...<P>Yes, of course my post probably sounds contradictory- I FEEL confused- and am having a hard time explaining...<P>Basically- I HAVE been thru this site- this and others- I've glanced thru books as well on this subject- and you know what???? They put EVERYTHING back on ME!!! Well, excuse me- but I've worked hard at this marriage and had NOTHING in return!!! I truly was ready to call it quits BEFORE I found out about the affairs- they were the straw that broke my back!!! Plan A- HA! Did that for a LOOOONNNGGG Time!!!! Too Long!!<P>I refuse to take responsibility for this- not even in the least little bit!!!! I literally gave that man EVERYTHING- (oh and PS- I happen to enjoy and want sex about ten times as much as him and it has ALWAYS been this way!!!!) I spent the whole marriage trying to hand him the power and leadership in our marriage and with our kids- and he refused to take it!! No- instead he treated my HORRIBLE and went elsewhere for little trysts at lunch time with tramps from the office!!!! (For crying out loud- the stuff he did- I DID IN HIGHSCHOOL!!!! Not at the age of 28 with three kids!!!) I asked him for counseling, I asked him to TALK to me, I left him alone, I literally did EVERYTHING I could think of, and prayed about and thought God was leading me to do to try and "win this man's love"...NOTHING WORKED!!! He was to selfcentered and stupid to get it!<P>NOW- he finally admits to me OVER THE PHONE about all of his affairs- and decides that maybe he loves me- WHAT??????<P>My "handle" is "Too Late For Me" with a question mark because I find it completely UNBELIEVABLE that this has happened like this!!!! I don't want his love now- I NEED love and some tenderness and someone to FINALLY take care of my needs for once- but I don't know if it is wise to take that from HIM!!! I don't have low self esteem about my personality and my looks- I'm beautiful- I am talented and smart- and men have always enjoyed my company- everyone looks at my STBX and shakes their heads at what he has taken for granted! Honestly, my self esteem hasn't suffered a blow- if anything- I'm flat out MAD that I wasted so much time on a pointless relationship!!! The part that makes me feel bad about myself- is that he could just lie to me over and over again- why would he change for the future? Wouldn't he just think "ok- well- I lied to her for so long, and it worked, she FOUND OUT but invited me right back into the cozy little family"- dinner with us, pool with the kids, church, sleeping in my bed- WHAT HAS HE LOST AGAIN FOR HIS ACTIONS AND PAIN HE HAS INFLICTED??? Oh- pretty much nothing!! And I feel like if I just don't stand my ground- I will lose my OWN dignity and self respect!!! I WILL NOT SETTLE FOR THIS KIND OF LIFE!! And more importantly- I don't want my sons to have that in their lives either!<P>I WILL NOT BE A LOSER AGAIN!! And guess what- I AM the loser- I am the one that has lost everything- he has lost NOTHING, and now is Mr. Joe Christian AND had his fun on the side!! Somedays I feel like saying "ok- so when do I get a break?" Apparently NEVER!!!<P>I have so much history that goes with this- both sets of parents cheated- both "reconciled" and their marriages suck- do I want to go that route? NO- can I even talk to them? NO- they take it all to personally!!! I found out about my fathers affairs when I was 11 and my parents had no knowledge that I knew!!! My mom turned into a basket case and I vowed from that day forward that I would NEVER be that!!! That is why I always told my STBX to let me know first and I would set him free- but of course, he wanted to have his cake and eat it too!!!<P>All three of my pregnancies were a disaster- none planned- none WANTED by him- I also had a miscarriage almost two years ago and you should have seen the relief on his face!!! and you know what??? he was having a couple of times of sex with coworkers THAT SAME MONTH~!!!!!! He had sex with people WHILE I WAS Pregnant with my baby girl- and never once thought about the fact he could have brought something home to me OR HER!!! He even decided in the 8th month to tell me "I don't want a baby at all- you trapped me into this" (when I had done NO SUCH THING!!!) Those are the most painful memories of all- but get this-<P>NOW he says things like- "I would SO love to have a baby with you"- and I'm like- WHAT??????<P>I just can't even do this- I am mourning the loss of my 20's- and I DO NOT HAVE IT IN ME to move ahead with this man at all....<P>I just didn't know if there was anyone here who had experienced this kind of pain and had their spouse turn to them with love...it is making my decision to divorce him harder!! Why should anything be easy for me right? I'm telling you right now- there has not been ONE well laid plan or dream in my life that has been realized with joy and happiness- and this situation is literally just the final straw!!!<P>Every STUPID thing since I have found out has worked against me in this process- He totalled my car- forcing us to share one- and still share one until I can get another one- I have to ASK FOR THE CAR to get groceries for crying out loud! This with a man that has screwed me over!!<P>He was in the middle of a job change, so I had two options- move back to Michigan with my parents and live in their basement, or follow him to a new job so that my three kids would have a father- so I followed him- but of course, now I have to establish residency here and it will take 6 months before I can even file!!! Everything happened so quickly- and even if I had gone back to Michigan- I would have had to wait 6 months there as well- so instead of being a month away from finalizing it- I'm just at the beginning!!! EVERYTHING is working against me and I'm sick of it!!!<P>What do I do in the mean time??? He doesn't leave me alone, I asked him to move out (which he did with relatives) - but he still comes by here everyday and calls and emails me constantly!! He also just stepped in and took over taking the kids to church without ever asking me if I had planned to (and of course, with one car- we would have to attend to gether like one happy little family which I refuse to do but would make him just so happy)- so I let him do what he is wanting to with the kids because for the first time in his life he is actually being a FATHER....<P>This is the weirdest most aggravating thing I have ever experienced!!! I am at a loss as to how to handle this- because I can be friends with him, I enjoy his company, but I don't plan to be married to someone who could do this to me over and over as though it was no big deal.<P>He also grew up in christian schools and such- so not only has he learned to sneak around wonderfully well- he also knows how to talk the talk- but whether he is being real or not?????? How in the world can I tell in only 4 months!!!<P>Of course I'm confused- I love him with all my heart....I just don't think there is any way I can be the one that has to do EVEN MORE WORK....sorry-<P>Sorry this is long and angry- I've had to vent- I have no where else to vent- and I'm probably in the wrong place because I don't have the energy or interest in building a marriage that he has torn down...already went that route once!<P>Thanks for letting me blow off steam- I hope I don't get a bunch of hateful replies- I just am so sorry for this....<P>TLFM

You do belong here. I just want to say that it is ok to be angry. Being betrayed is like a death and it will take you time to heal. That is why I suggested counseling. Some days you will be alright and some days you will be a basket case.<BR>I understand that trust is a power and when we give our trust to someone and they misuse the power we feel violated. You want him to hurt like he has hurt you, but that is not our call. Somethings do have to be turned over to God or it will consume us to the point of craziness. "Trust in the Lord with all your heart and lean not to your own understanding and in all your ways look to him and he shall direct your path". <BR>It is ok to let you STBX H know how you feel. He has to understand that you need time. Yes, this has happened, but nothing just happens. This is the time for you to look within yourself and change what you don't like and empower what you like. Remember that you have children who are watching you and they can remember a bitter mother or a strong women of God. A mother that helped her husband, but also helped her family. I DON'T CARE WHAT ANYONE SAYS divorce affects the kids. <BR>Church members and others who have not walked in your shoes cannot really give you advice. How do they understand that you still love this man after all he has done. <BR>So lets be real, you are not going to solve your emotional hurts overnight and the trust will have to be rebuilt, but nothing is impossible for God. Take your time<P><BR>

But Hearing-<P>That's my problem- I don't WANT the marriage anymore I don't think!!! Why do I want to go through this again? Don't you think it normally happens again?? Does anyone know if it does or doesn't?<P>I want the man my STBX is right now- but what happens to me when that changes?? Whether it is in 5 months or 5 years???<BR>Like I said- what happens when he decides to lie to me again? I just can't do it.<P>I'm not going to help him become anything- I guess that is what I mean by role reversals- if anything is going to happen- he is going to need to be the one to help ME become something....<P>He quotes that scripture to me that you did- it is his life verse- and he says that his path leads straight to me.. <P>I'm so completely torn in two- it's like, needing to divorce a horrible selfish idiot of a man and ending a painful marriage, and then in the mean time- meeting someone that you just might want to get to know- slowly, being friends, wanting to date him.....but the problem is both "men" happen to inhabit the same body!!!<P>He keeps saying he is on this path to me- running it to make up for lost time- but what he doesn't understand is that I'm laying over next to the path- NOT EVEN ON IT- and both my legs are broken because of HIM!!!! I have no defense against him but myself...and look how that ended up the first time around!!!<P>I kind of am wanting to have my space and time and maybe even look around and see if this is really all my life is supposed to be?? Maybe I would be better off alone? Maybe there is someone out there for me? Sometimes I'm worried that he only wants me so that no one else can have me (like one man's trash is another man's treasure)<P>I do want my kids to view me as a strong and independent woman that will take care of them- I think I have been this so far, they know what is going on, we are very open and communicate with them- and they seem to be doing ok- and when they aren't- I try to help them thru it...<P>The problem is- I get NO DOWN TIME!! I've got pressure from them wanting me to give him a second chance, pressure on my job (normal job things), pressure from my family to "do what's best" (yeah- and- what is that again??)- and now pressure from HIM to let him love me just because now he decided to!!! I NEED A BREAK!!!! My tears after reading all of this over again this morning prompted me to actually schedule a week FOR MYSELF- away from him and the kids and everything....I hope that gives me some time to clear my head!!<P>I have been strong for everyone else- and for once- it would be nice if someone was strong for me....<P>This has just been such a role reversal...I never dreamed when I told him he could have his freedom and I wanted a divorce- that he would turn around and love me!! What makes me the maddest is that it took so much out of me to get to that point, and then when I finally DID- he changed his mind!!! And now- I will hate myself if I just let him "snap his fingers" and get me back!!! Damned if you do, damned if you don't!!!<P>We say it is going to be the first divorce ever that the two people still love eachother....<P>I also hate to admit, and I don't want to hurt anyone here- because I do know the nature of this site, but I have little or no respect for people that just sit and wait and cry and wait and want their spouse to come back...I don't think I could do much of plan B at all----my thoughts towards my STBX right now are "you know what- HE AIN'T THAT GREAT" if someone else wants him- they can have him!!<P>My sun rose and set on this man for so long-- he was all I saw- all that consumed my mind and heart- it has always been such a desire to love him....<P>Another reason of course- that I'm not sure staying with him would be best- because both of us deserve better!!! I can only half heartedly be with him now on ANY level- he irritates me now- that was never the case before- he isn't even that attractive to me now- and that has NEVER been the case before this!!! <P>Why oh WHY couldn't we ever be on the same page!!!!!?????<P>I wish I knew someone else that felt this way!!!<P>Thank you Hearing- I appreciate your kindness to me- and directing me towards God and counseling....(my other "christian" counselor was worthless- never offered ANY advice or anything- and three pastors I talked to were even worse- I could write a book for the clergy on things NOT to say to a hurting betrayed wife) anyway....<P>Thanks- sorry this is long again!!<BR>Like I said- no one to talk to <BR>TLFM

Actually, I think you're struggling with a lot of the same issues that many of us are dealing with......<P>-you've already done everything that you could think of<BR>-you're very hurt<BR>-you feel like to gave the world to your spouse, and they threw it back in your face.<P>I'm going to list some things, let's see if you think some of them describe you:<BR>-feel responsible for other people<BR>-feel anxious or pity when other people have a problem<BR>-feel compelled, almost forced, to help that person solve the problem via unwanted advice, suggestions, etc.<BR>-anticipate other people's needs<BR>-wonder why they don't do the same for you<BR>-not know what you want and need, or tell yourself that that it's not important<BR>-try to please others, not yourself<BR>-find it easier to feel and express anger about injustices done to others, rather than injustices done to yourself<BR>-feel bored, empty, and worthless if you don't have a crisis in your life, a problem to solve, or someone to help<BR>-overcommitted<BR>-harried and pressured<BR>-blame others for the spot you're in<BR>-say that other people "make you feel" the way you do<BR>-feel angry, victimized, unappreciated, and used<BR>-blame yourself for everything<BR>-pick on yourself for everything, thoughts, feelings, looks, actions, behavior<BR>-reject compliments or praise<BR>-get angry, defensive, self-righteous, and indignant when others blame and criticize you<BR>-fear rejection<BR>-afraid of making mistakes<BR>-tell yourself you can't do anything right<BR>-wonder why you have trouble making decisions<BR>-feel ashamed of who you are<BR>-wish good things would happen to you<BR>-believe you don't deserve good things and happiness<BR>-wish other people would like and love them<BR>-try to prove they're good enough for other people<BR>-setle for being needed<BR>-push your thoughts and feelings out of your awareness because of fear and guilt<BR>-afraid to let yourself be who you are<BR>-appear rigid and controlled<BR>-worry about the silliest things<BR>-lose sleep over other people's issues<BR>-never find answers<BR>-try to catch people in acts of misbehavior<BR>-never have any energy<BR>-can't seem to get things done<BR>-think they know best about how things should turn out and how people should behave<BR>-try to control events and people through helplessness, guilt, coercion, threats, advice-giving, manipulation, or domination<BR>-fail in efforts or provoke anger<BR>-get frustrated and angry<BR>-feel controlled by events and people<BR>-get confused<BR>-get depressed or sick<BR>-ignore problems or pretend they aren't happening<BR>-pretend circumstances aren't as bad as they are<BR>-workaholic, compulsive spending, overeating<BR>-watch problems get worse<BR>-believe lies<BR>-lie to yourself<BR>-wonder why you feel like you're going crazy<BR>-don't feel happy, content, or peaceful with yourself<BR>-look for happiness outside yourself<BR>-didn't feel love and approval from your parents<BR>-desperately seek love and approval<BR>-often seek love from people incapable of loving<BR>-equate love with pain<BR>-center your life around other people<BR>-lose interest in your own life when you love<BR>-worry other people will leave them<BR>-don't believe they can take care of themselves<BR>-stay in relationships that don't work<BR>-tolerate abuse to keep people loving them<BR>-feel trapped in relationships<BR>-wonder if they will ever find love<BR>-blame, threaten, coerce, beg, bribe, advise<BR>-don't say what you mean<BR>-don't mean what you say<BR>-don't take yourself seriously<BR>-think other people don't take you seriously<BR>-take yourself too seriously<BR>-ask for what you want and need indirectly (sighing)<BR>-difficult to get to the point<BR>-try to say what you hope will make people do what you want them to do<BR>-avoid talking about yourself<BR>-say everything or nothings is your fault<BR>-believe your opinions don't matter<BR>-won't express opinions until you know other people's opinions<BR>-difficulty asserting rights<BR>-difficulty expressing emotions<BR>-begin to think in cynical, self-degrading, or hostile ways<BR>-apologize for bothering people<BR>-tolerate and do things you said you would never do<BR>-let others hurt you<BR>-wonder why you are hurting<BR>-complain, blame, and try to control while you continue to stand there<BR>-finally get angry<BR>-become totally intolerant<BR>-don't trust yourself, feelings, decisions, or other people<BR>-think God has abandoned you<BR>-lose faith and trust in God<BR>-feel scared, hurt, and angry<BR>-afraid of own anger<BR>-cry a lot, get depressed, overeat, get sick, do mean and nasty things to get even, act hostile, or have violent temper outbursts<BR>-feel increasing amounts of anger, resentment, and bitterness<BR>-feel safer with your anger than with hurt feelings<BR>-wonder if you'll ever NOT be angry<BR>(I'll leave out the sex stuff)<BR>-extremely responsible or extremely irresponsible<BR>-difficult to feel close to people and to be fun and spontaneous<BR>-ashamed about family, personal, or relationship problems<BR>-confused about the nature of the problem<BR>-cover up, lie, and protect the problem<BR>-not seek help because you don't think the problem is bad enough or important enough<BR>-wonder why the problem doesn't go away<BR>-lethargic, depressed, withdrawn, isolated, hopeless<BR>-complete loss of daily routine and structure<BR>-abuse or neglect children and responsibilities<P>long list ----<P>It's adapted from lists written by Melody Beattie in her book "Codependent No More".<P>The reason I listed them is that you commented that you did everything for him, you feel like your church & even God have betrayed you, your confusion<P>----- and yet you say that you still love him. That you do want his love.....<P>only you don't trust him. And you've also lost trust in God and the church.<P>You've been deeply hurt.<P><BR>I've got a question(s) --- Why is it that you feel that you had to have other people from the church come over and pray with you? I know that some people say that there is power in numbers, but isn't there also power in praying from the depths of your soul? What's more important --- numbers? or asking for something that God can do? And do you simply pray for him to 'make it right', or do you ask for his assistance and guidance in solving one particular aspect of the problem, a piece at a time?<P>I too prayed for God to 'make it right', to 'bring him back'. It didn't work.<P>But when I prayed for God to help me understand what was happening in my life and then threw myself into the task, He guided me. When I've asked for help in completing specific tasks, for things that in my heart I know are true and right, He has helped me. Not everything came out the way I wanted it to, expected it to, or on the timeline that I really wanted....but it did happen. And I believe that I am going to be better off for following God and yielding to his guidance, even when it confused and frustrated me. Handing it over to God doesn't mean He'll give you a Happy Meal with everything prepared and exactly how you expect it. It means surrendering and letting him guide you through life's turmoils....on His schedule and in His way.<P><BR>And I know you're tired of hearing that answer.....<P>So, you don't want to fix your husband and you don't want to fix your marriage.....<P>What about fixing yourself? Shouldn't you take care of yourself first before you try to take care of others?<P>Cliche' -- It takes two to tango. And you say that you want to avoid walking down the same path again.<BR>How did you contribute to the problems in the marriage? What Needs did you not meet which caused him to look elsewhere? Or does he have a problem which kept him from meeting your needs?<P>This is a time for you. Time to think. Time to be a little selfish. Time to rediscover yourself. Time to Grow.<P>Maybe you don't have to jump to it and divorce. Maybe you need him to back off and give you and he both time to explore and decide what you want. You want to see if his 'finding God' thing will last. And yes, I'm wondering if codependency is a problem with you and you need to get out and rediscover yourself.<P>You also have three children who do need to be considered in this. I know what I would have preferred, but he's intent on playing around with his mistress.<P><BR>I will say this though ---- If my H were to have a sudden change of heart, I'd probably be in your place. I am to a point now where I'm not sure if I'd have him back --- he has really hurt me and I'm not sure if I trust him. But deep down inside me, that vow that I took at the altar meant something to me.....and I'm not exactly an innocent party in this thing either..... but if he were to come to me I feel that I am duty bound to make the best possible effort in trying to save our marriage. BUT there would be some very specific conditions governing the reconciliation.<P>For me, it's simple. I made a list of things that he would have to do in order for me to return:<BR>- break all contact with the OW<BR>- break all contact with his 'friends' (who knew of the relationship and hid it for them)<BR>- get tested by the Dr. for STD<BR>- go to church, consider changing churches<BR>- individual counselling, including considering medication<BR>- marital counselling<BR>- attend Retrouville and Marriage Encounters<BR>- attend PAIRS classes (communication)<BR>- consider moving to another town<BR>- sleep in the other room until I'm comfortable with him returning to the bedroom<BR>- commit to spending X amount of time alone with me<BR>- find a recreational activity that we can do together<BR>- one night to myself, alone, my choice of night<BR>- rededication of our marriage vows<P>Pretty exhaustive list. If he wanted to work on the marriage, then there wasn't going to be no half-assing with it. I wanted to give our marriage the greatest possible chance of having reconciliation work and not only succeed, but grow to a whole new level of understanding and love. He either straightened up his act and committed to making it work, or it was over. He filed.<P>So, do you think that your H would agree to the things I've listed? Would you? It's a committment of both time and money (PAIRS classes and counselling can be expensive).<P>It's meant to be worked in baby steps.<BR>- all contacts with OW, etc. get broken<BR>- get into counselling individually and start working on our personal problems, go to church <BR>- marital counselling and Retrouville, start spending some time together (i.e. dating)<BR>- PAIRS classes, find a recreational activity to do together<BR>- him move back in<BR>etc.<P>Of course, he was also to have some things that he would expect me to do too. Only I never got to find out what those things might be.<P><BR>So, you don't have to just drop everything, outright forgive him and try to pretend that nothing ever happened. I wanted to grow from this experience. The things that I would have been learning with my H would have been 'life' things, not just 'marriage' things. Knowing how to better communicate with my H would also enable me to better communicate with other people. Taking it slow and easy would allow us time to heal and adjust, to rebuild trust. To do what was right for us as individuals and as H & W.<P>The whole thing is, if you decide that you want to give this marriage another try, it is possible to chart out a plan that would enable you to slowly rebuild your trust.<P>But if you decide that it's over and fix your mind in that frame, then no one can save your marriage.<P>Remember too, it's not just your marriage.....it's also your family. No matter what happens, you and he will always be connected by your children. Saving the marriage would reduce complications and allow for growth. Divorce would only add more complications.<P>It's not too late for you to take care of you.<BR>It's not too late for your H to take care of himself.<BR>And it's never too late for you to explore your personal relationship with God. <P>~Amy

I think you are on the right path, taking time for yourself. It sounds like you have been everything to everyone and now its time for you. Don't rush into a decision. Take time to get through the pain and then make a decision. I will give you the same advice I gave my friend about her husband. Don't make a decision while you are hurting. <P>I know that everything goes through your mind because you still love him. You would not be here if you did not love him. Believe it or note this site is for you. Letting him go and finding someone else may not be the answer (not until you are healed). You don't want to take this baggage into another relationship and you don't want to be the victim again. In every relationship there are risks, that is why you must take the time and know what you want and what is best for your kids. Right now you are still angry at him, but in 6 months or even a year will you still be this angry? Now you look at him as not being that great of a man, but he is still the father of your children. You are going to have to deal with him for several more years (whether married or not).<P>Whatever you decide always encourage your children that both of you love them. I will also suggest that you listen to a minister in Dallas who is on the web. His name is TDJakes and he ministers to hurting women and hurting families. His web is TDJakes.org. You are in my prayers.<BR>

Amy-<BR>I printed out your post and am reading and re-reading it right now...<P>I am apparently a co-dependent- and as I look at all of this- it makes me fully realize that I am not ready for a relationship with ANYONE- maybe even God included!!! And especially not my STBX<P>Most of the items in that super long list apply to me- most of them I have learned and seen and adapted to my life from childhood thru now- and I tell you what- it makes me see that I'm a bigger loser than I THOUGHT I was!!! I wasn't always this big of a loser- and now here I am!!<P>As far as reasons why he looked outside the marriage- I don't know??? He had me at my best- my personal best- I was beautiful, (size 6, always in shape and looking attractive), I was trying hard to be a wonderful mother and wife- meals, activities- vacations- love notes- church- everything.....my family jokes that I should have been born a guy with my sex drive..I also always worked and help supplement our income- or when he was unhappy in his career- helped him triple his salary, etc., etc....At some point he stopped doing ANYTHING and then I had to do EVERYTHING and i got sick of it!!! He didn't meet my needs from day one- NONE of them- and he never cared to know what any of them were...I am actually amazed that it wasn't ME that had the affairs and not him.....I had more reasons too!!!! Now he has given me this label as _"well what did you do wrong that helooked outside the marriage" and also a bunch of baggage that I just want to shove back in his face!!!<P>He was very inexperienced sexually and emotionally when we were married- and his family background was VERY stifled in terms of communication and affection...I don't remember ONE time that I felt safe and secure with him..Oh no- I take that back- there was once- Last year in Feb- I laid in his arms and told him so and you know what? He was having sex with three other people besides me at that time and NEVER SAID A WORD!!!!<P>We also married for the wrong reasons I believe- and although I wanted to deepen that and be intimate in all ways with him- I think the thought of intimacy frightened him and was too high maintenance- it was easier for him to have cheap nasty sex with no strings attached...<P>He still hasn't told me why, where, when, what....I don't want to go to marriage counseling- and he went to counseling at the beginning- but not anymore...He also has let his devotions become sporadic- which makes me really question his sincerity..<P>I wanted people from church to come pray with me, or atleast call or drop me a note because I have had NO ONE to talk to about this!!! I lived far away from family...I was always there for them, being supportive, understanding, not butting in when I wasn't wanted, but offering friendship- yet the ONE time that I could have used maybe ONE shoulder to cry on- they all disappeared!!! No one even called and said- we'll come watch the kids so you and _ _ _ _ can talk- I've had the kids watching like hawks since day one!!!<P>I originally started to turn back to God- but then my STBX came back from Michigan (my request- our 3 year old was unbelievable angry and she needed him near by)- and on the way back he totalled the car and basically- he "took over" from there- he took over everything!!! He is a master manipulator (obviously- 8 plus people willing offered sex to him without so much as an "i love you" or "here's some lunch") and he knows EXACTLY how to manipulate me- and I fall for it every time!! (obviously- the old co-dependent tendancy kicks right in!!!)<P>This time around I'm not letting it- and it is driving him batty- because of all things- it is driving me to divorce him!!<P>You know- I wasn't expecting God to give me a happy meal- but maybe ONE FRY would have been nice!!! I can't explain to you- and don't have enough time- ALL OF THE THINGS THAT ARE LOSSES in my life- much more than a lousy ten years of marriage...I'm just so sick of it- that I am ready to stand up and get it going on MY OWN!!!<P>You are right- I need to fix myself- I wasn't broken this badly before him- and he has left quite a bit of damage in his sinful wake...now I guess I get to pick up the pieces!!! Problem is- I'm struggling enought to pick up pieces of myself and the kids- thinking of marriage??hahaha- that is too absurd to even think about!<P>He doesn't play around with a mistress now- he said the last (and longest) one was over last July...he keeps saying that I'm the only one for him now- and of course- that confuses me and REALLY confuses the kids- because they think everything should be just fine then now- and suddenly I've turned into the bad guy???<P>I don't have any demands for him to "put our marriage together" like the list you had for earning back trust...unfortunately- I don't think it can be earned back by him- it took him so long to earn it in the first place because of what happened in my childhood- and then he went and threw it all away....that, again, is what I mean about role reversals- right now- I could care less about what he does or who he does it with I love him- but then I think- maybe I dont really know what love is???<P>I guess my marriage is unsaveable- and I guess that is really ok with me.... I just didn't know if down the road some time it would be too weird to possibly date him or wee about a relationship then??? I just don't know <P>Thanks for your advice- I've printed it to read again and again...<P>TLFM