As I continue to Plan A, I am getting more and more frustrated. Plan A is working great with all of my relationships except my marriage.<P>I approached my husband last night because I was confused about a comment he made this past Saturday and I wanted/needed clarification. I used OvrCs (Nicole's) approach by talking in the first person and he did not seemed threatened by that approach. [Great recommendation OvrCs] My question for him was regarding a statement he made about not wanting to show affection towards me in front of our friends. This was really confusing for me because I would think he would want our friends to know that we are finally working toward fixing our problems. I just needed clarification as to why it would be so bad for our friends to see us happy. His response to this question was "I just don't want to show affection right now." Well after about a 30 minute conversation last night, I told him that I was giving up because I was tired of changing EVERYTHING to please him and getting nothing in return. I'm not even asking for much except for just a little reassurance that he is noticing the changes. I used the analogy last night that "employees become even better employees when their employers encourage their progress". I told him that I get so frustrated sometimes lately because I feel that I am trying/giving 110% and I am not seeing any encouragement/reassurance at all to keep up the good work. I also told him that I make every effort NOW to point out how much he is helping around the house and he pointed out that I am only doing this NOW that we have problems and why couldn't I have done this before. I again apologized for taking him for granted over years past but I cannot change the past and I can only make the future better but he has to let me.<P>Since I could tell our conversation was going to start getting into the areas that cause both of us to get upset, I just ended the conversation with the comment "I have no more energy to keep this game playing up and I am too tired to try anymore".<P>I was all set to continue on today and take myself to the movies tonight and to the zoo tomorrow just to get away and much to my surprise, for the first time in two weeks, he called me at work today just to see how I was doing and what we were going to do this weekend.<P>What should I make of this?<P>Did he actually hear my cries last night and still wants to fight for our marriage?<P>Since he made the effort to contact me today, I am not going to go to the movies alone tonight because I think it would be a real LB if I did since he has made an effort. He even talked of plans for tomorrow.<P>Thanks again all for listening.

Michele,<P>Did anything get through to him, who knows. But one thing I can assure of is that there will be back sliding in all of this. So be prepared for the highs and lows.<P>Sounds like the conversation went a little farther than it should of last night, but that's all right. If you do stay home this evening, make sure that you both have a good evening. No serious discussing tonight.<P>Heck, rent a movie, order pizza in and enjoy each other this evening.<P>Hugs, Thoughts, & Prayers from Kansas<P>------------------<BR>Love, Bill<P>-There are none so blind as those who refuse to see!-<BR>-Stand up and do the right thing, even if your standing alone.-

Michelle (sbplyr),<P>I've been going through something similar with my W. She's giving hints that she might (she always says "might", "may", "maybe" etc.) stay in the marriage. Today she said that I should work on the house because "I might move back in and we might keep it for a year". I feel like I'm supposed to keep making the efforts without her making any commitment at all. It's not fair, but it's the way it is.<P>What happened when you told your H that you "give up", I think is interesting - and similar to what I have experienced. I think as long has he knows that you are, in effect, chasing him, he will continue to run away. When you stop chasing, he will stop running. He was afraid that you really WOULD give up. That's why he responded as he did. I have learned to leave my W alone. I hardly call her lately, and guess what - she came to see me twice today - just showed up without even calling ahead - and says "I might move back in". Dobson's theory in "Love must be tough" is that the spouse that wants out feels trapped. You have to open the cage and let him/her feel freedom. Then, he/she might start thinking about the value of the marriage.

{{{{{ Michele }}}}}<P>Its soooo easy to just lie down, and give up...this makes you very tired, and sort of hollow feeling, huh? We all know how much energy an effective Plan A takes. We all know that no one around you understands. You see, people <B>think</B> that they know how you feel. They <B>think</B> that they are in a similar situation. They sometimes play out their own resentment of their tired and failing or failed relationships our your hurting one. I am convinced that at a subconscious level, helping ours end gives them (former BSs?) a measure of power and control. It doesn't matter at this point.<P>Michele, I think it is too early for Plan B, and honestly, Plan B is just as taxing as Plan A, but people get the impression that you want to start a new relationship when you do Plan B. I think that your H is conflicted about things. Someone is putting a bug in his ear....who could that be? I think it may be a male friend. Was he as reluctant to show affection to you before? He could be involved with an EA, too. I'm not trying to give you more on top of what you have already, but there is an impediment here that is slowing you two down. That is either a man or a woman he is talking to, or else he has already talked to his friends, and he is embarassed to admit to them that he is wanting to stay.<P>Tell me more about his friends, and family...who would he trust with his feelings besides you? Someone has some information on this...let's find out who that is, and maybe you could approach them, and get some answers.<P>Please be patient...like Bill said, backslides are natural...possibly unavoidable, and mostly they just prove that we are only human...as long as we don't LB too much. Still, they are to be consciously avoided...in a positive manner. Pray that God replace your LB behavior with behavior that will meet his ENs.<P>It may help to realize two things, because your post said two things that concern me. First, this is not, and cannot be a 'game'. It certainly seems that way, but it isn't. Second, you really have to do it with no expectation at all. Where you are right now...is in marriage that is missing several forms of love...I will summarize from 'Love Life For Every Married Couple' by Ed Wheat...but before I do, let me bore you with something that <I>I</I> find interesting.<P>Long ago, we had no science...we had no religion...we had no explanation for how things were. In Greece, one of the cradles of civilization, wise men attempted (very obviously) to explain things with religion. If you know anything about Greek mythology, you know that they had many gods, each responsible for some facet of the as yet unexplained world. For example, Helios<B> was</B> the sun, and Eros (Cupid) <B>was</B> love. When things didn't go well, that meant that the gods were displeased, or playing with them. Most of the existing literature from ancient Greece also shows us that they believed that the air (Greek=thumos) was life, so they describe things in terms of 'air quality'. Fear is something that you breathe in...as is hope, despair, love. In the Iliad and Odyssey the original Greek text shows this. Dr. Julian Janes wrote his doctoral thesis on a heady concept called the bicameral mind. This is a theory that relates to <B>how</B> we think...consciously, or subconsciously. It is obviously a deep psychiatric discourse, and took a long time for me to read, but it explains a great deal...especially about things that don't make sense to us. I am not urging you to tackle it now, but I wanted to share it to explain to you that when you do not understand a thing...it is not necessary to push it away every time, and to watch out for this:<BR> In order to put you back in the box, people will make you feel bad, then give you an automatic solution. For instance, someone tells you...'Michele I can't believe that you are still chasing him, he isn't listening, quit chasing him.' Now, Michele...you are in Plan A because you want him to remain in the marriage...i.e. you love him. His ambivalence notwithstanding, you love him. Making this into a game, and giving up...well, they don't service that goal, now do they? They do form an automatic solution...a way out of the current pain, and <B>you</B> get to say that <B>you</B> gave up....power. Understand that <B>real</B> power comes along with <B>real</B> responsibility...and takes an effort. Get power over your bicameral mind. BTW bicameral means 'two chambered' and comes with a ton of other connotations, not the least of which comes from God...God does not like dual-minded people. Stay <B>conscious</B> of what is going on, quit relying on this etheral crap that has no basis in reality that you are being fed by people, and that little 'devil Michele' on your shoulder. It comes from your Taker. (See what I mean...conscious/subconscious...Giver/Taker...good/evil) I tell you, Julian Janes is a genius. He is(/was?) also the Dean of Psychology at Princeton. (The book is 'The Origin of Consciousness in the Breakdown of The Bicameral Mind' to those interested...and still wading through this.)<P><B>Finally, back from the tangent...</B><BR>There are listed in the (other) book...five kinds of love:<P>epithumia - this is a strong physical desire for the other.<P>erotica - this is actaully romance, don't let the word erotic fool you.<P>storgia - this is the 'old shoe', or comfortable love.<P>phileo - friendship.<P>agapia - love without expectation.<P>It takes all 5 to keep a marriage going. Unfortunately, women in general don't see storgia as love...they think that they are being taken for granted when it dominates...they are looking for the (I'll use romance versus erotic to avoid the negative connotation.) romance. Men are looking for the epithumia, and seeing the phileo.<P>Right now, all you can show with any sort of regularity (which requires no 'permission' from him) is AGAPE love...like Jesus showed to his persecuters. Agape seeks no reward, Michele. A textbook Plan A is pure agape love...pure phileo love...and pure storge love. Nothing will come back for a long time. You are making Love Bank deposits here. You stated that it is working in every other aspect of your life...then it is working. Don't be bicameral here! God is trying to tell you...GOOD JOB! He is pleased when someone 'gets it'! The <I>other</I> guy is pi$$ed, and is working to make you stop. Please don't. Get 'Love Life For Every Married Couple'.<P>Get closer to God, Michele...he is the only one that can restore your marriage. You can do this...its hard to change ourselves, we resist that with great fervor...that explains why it tires you out...your Giver is getting tired, and your Taker is wanting to take over. That is where God can help. He is sending you love through other channels now...accept his grace with grace. Keep on working your plan. You are standing for both of you, and the burden is great. Give it to God, he will carry your cross for you. For my part, I will pray. I know that everyone else will, too. Get of <B>one mind/heart</B> about this, and God will listen. Once you begin to realize the <I>duality</I> of life, it makes much more sense, peace about that which you do not like comes, and the power to change literally everything grows. You also lose your resentment, and need to 'get back' at folks. Makes it much easier to get through the day. Take care. -Mike<P><BR><p>[This message has been edited by waiting_for_her (edited July 21, 2001).]

UPDATE!<P>Thank you all for your advice and kind words, it really helped me through the weekend.<P>Ever since I told my husband on Thursday night (7/12/01) that I was done trying, he has been paying a lot more attention to me. He and I had a wonderful weekend and for the first time in 4 months, my husband made love to me twice this weekend. He was the one that initiated the contact and it was wonderful. We had the best time together that we have had in a very long time and for the first time in all of our problems, I really felt like he does still love me and wants to work this out.<P>Now that brings me to my next step. Now that I have told him that I am done trying and he has showed these steps towards meeting some of my emotional needs, what do I do now. Do I continue like I am done trying or do I continue with Plan A? I really don't want to mess things up now that I see he is starting to make efforts. Did I actually scare him on Thursday by telling him I was finished with trying to make this work?<P>I know by him approaching me to make love is not going to fix all of our problems but it is positive steps for us/him and I just want to continue in the right path to assist him and I in our continued growth towards reconciliation. I also know that this will probably continue as a two steps foward, one step back rebuilding.<P>This weekend we were at a barbeque at a friends house and I pretty much kept my distance from him in a continued effort to Plan A and show that I am not going to try anymore. I was outside with our kids in the pool and he was in the house watching baseball. Normally, I would have gotten irritated that he was not spending time with us but since all of my Plan A'ing, I had a wonderful time with just me and the kids outside. At some point during the day, he became irritated. I don't know at who or what and I didn't ask. The only reason I knew he was irritated was because I heard my oldest daughter ask him what was wrong and he said he was just irritated right now. Since I knew it couldn't have been anything I did, I just kept my distance and continued having a good time with my kids and everybody else that was there. Anyway, I kept seeing him out of the corner of my eye watching me. I don't know if he was trying to make eye contact or see if he could get a reaction out of me but it is not going to work anymore. He also kept making sure that I had something to drink and was always asking if I needed anything.<P>Last night before I went to bed, I told him that I had a great weekend and thank you. I just left it at that and he didn't question why I was thanking him for a great weekend.<P>Are these all signs that he really does want it to work out?<P>Have I made a breakthrough with him?<P>Thanks again to all of you for all of your advice, hugs, prayers and kind words. It is really helping me.<P>Michele<BR>sballplyr_21@yahoo.com

That's great.<P>You have shown him that you are changing the interaction between the two of you...as painful as the recent past has been, it was comforatble to him...familiar...not what he wanted, but he was in control. You have shaken that up, and the 'irritation' was a manipulative ploy to get you to return to him.<P>He is very confused by his lack of success in controlling the situation. What you are doing now is a sort of plan a/b combination. You are demonstrating love, but you are avoiding the OR style interaction.<P>I think it is time to 'come clean' somewhat with him. You can tell him that you love him, but you don't want things like they were before. He needs to realize that you both need to change. I feel that he may be amenable to some form of counseling...maybe you could print out the information here, and sit down with him and read through it...like the three states of marriage, POJA, LBs...The window of opportunity on this is small...he will get more resentful as time passes with no results for his efforts. I disagree that he is as controlling as people have said...I think that he just doesn't know, and it is apparent that he is getting the wrong sort of advice from someone.<P>Anyway, that is great news...I knew that you would be successful, now make sure that you keep positive about this...people will try to play the 'devil's advocate', and that is a literal statement, not symbolism!<P>I am so happy for you! God bless. -Mike

Mike --<P>I feel like I have made a breakthrough with him but I am still scared that I will be hurt so I am going at this with my guard up.<P>I have 'come clean' with him on several ocassions and that is what has caused a lot of my frustration in the past is that I would tell him I love him and that we need to change and the look on his face was like it was painful for him to hear me tell him these things and that he is not sure I/we can change. I do know that he is still very against counseling so I do not bring it up anymore. I have in the recent past printed out several materials from this sight and brought them home for us to read. He was not agreeable so I went off into our room and read them by myself. He at that time wanted to know what I was reading and then he walked out of the room and showed know interest. I did leave the materials out on my nightstand and I think he has looked through them because they were in a different order than how I left them.<P>I hope this continues in the positive for us and I am going to still give my 110% and still keep on with my now Plan A/B method. It seems to be what is working right now.<P>It was so nice this weekend to see him so happy and it made me so happy that there was no way I could have LB'd. Maybe by him seeing that the more he meets my emotional needs, the easier it is for me to continue to change.<P>Thanks again for all of your advice, you have been a great support for me.<P>Michele<BR>

Hello, Michele? You've left your thread dangling...what's up? The trouble with keeping your guard up is that you occasionally throw a jab (LB) in there just to see what will happen! Be careful with being careful!<P>So then, you have made yourself clear on several occasions...do you think that it is clear to him? Or have you made it clear only to yourself? I'm not asking you to tell him again, but does he <I>get it</I>? If not, maybe another way of showing, or telling is in order. When you have communicated with him successfully in the past...what was that like? Can you take it apart objectively, and find out what makes it tick? Tell me about a successful conversation with him...in detail. If you can get at what works, then you will be able to apply it in other instances with success. I think that is very Plan A like...avoid the LBs, make the deposits...you know? You said that he had a 'look on his face like it was painful for him....' What is the nature of that look? Do his eyes move side to side? My XW's did in that instance. It indicates an on-going internal dialog...in other words, there is a conversation that he is having that you are not aware of. The content of that conversation is pretty important. If they do not move side to side, what do they do? What is his posture like? How does it change with what is said? Can you go back, and tell me more about it?<P>I haven't heard from you, and you were concerned about me, which is touching...thank you. Now, I am the one concerned about you? How are you? -Mike<p>[This message has been edited by waiting_for_her (edited August 13, 2001).]

Tonight I am not doing well at all. I LB'd and my husband and I had another huge fight. Well, let's just say that he told me and the kids tonight that he no longer can continue fighting with me and he is moving out on Thursday. I don't know what else to say except that I am completely numb. I am all cried out and can't believe this is happening to me. Why couldn't I just keep my mouth shut? Why did I seek more answers from him.<P>Thanks to all of you for your support and I am sure I will be needing a lot more over the next couple of days, weeks and months to come.<P>Michele

It was good to see that you are here now, Michele...I have missed you, and had that fear...You are you...don't beat yourself up too much. There are other possibilities...it may be defensive from his standpoint. Remeber that you are showing him that it is safe with you. Lbing is a backslide, but it does not mean that you have failed, just that you are human, and vulnerable. Try to see things in new ways that don't threaten you so much. That will give rise to the fight, or flight response, which causes your LB behavior to come out, if you don't. We want it all to be fixed in a moment, because it is painful, but it would be better to work on making it less painful to you...its more doable in the <I>short</I> term...the relationship work is more long term...use that high-aim steering on that one.<P>Could you tell me what happened? Maybe the outlook is not so bleak, and we can find out what pushed your buttons, and get some defenses ready for it? -Mike

I wouldn't even no where to begin. Things have been going great. I even asked him for my ring back on Friday and he said "Of course, I never asked you to take it of anyway."<P>I have a few very bad days at work and have had no support from him at all. I was just so tired of all of this one-sided relationship that I snapped. I simply asked him "Do you know how interested in your life I am" and when he didn't even respond to me it just set off so much anger it was unbelievable. I wanted to know what I was doing wrong and why he makes it seem like I am invisible. Well when I started pushing for answers, he gave me the ultimate answer that I was fearing and that is that he is DONE. Done doing all of this and that after he got home from work on Thursday, he would tell the kids that he is leaving. Well, I saw no point in waiting until Thursday to tell the kids so I made him tell them tonight. What a tearful horrible experience that was.<P>Anyway, before he left for a little while tonight, I stopped him at the car and told him the no matter what happens that "I will always love him, that he is the only one for me, that I am still very much in love with him and want this to work out". Believe it or not he said all the same things to me but said he wasn't sure if we could work it out. I asked him if he wanted a Divorce and he said "he wants a separation". That tells me that it is over. You know, through all of this Plan A'ing, no matter how good I was being on the plan, it was just never good enough for him. At this poing, I have nothing left to give and am giving up my fight and just going to accept things for what they are. The kids are devestated and I need to be there for them.<P>I want to believe that deep down this isn't what he wants but I don't have the strength to keep up this one-sided relationship. I don't feel wanted and loved anymore and that is really hard for me. Nothing I can do or say right now will help.

Wow, its like you are both playing a one sided game of ping-pong! He says he is DONE...then says that he wants a separation...you hear divorce when he says separation...and tell him so. I did the same thing, Michele. STOP THAT. Bite completely through your tongue if necessary, but you have got to stop doing that. It leaves him no choice. Can you give me some more specific things? See, I am getting a clearer picture of the interaction. I know it is difficult...there is no need for you to relive the experience from your point of view...try 'seeing' it as that fly on the wall...see you, and him. You can break this cycle, but you have to get at the nature of it first. This is the hardest for me...its called taking the third perceptual position, but you know it as being objective. You should be able to extract in this what specifically caused you to 'lose it'. Once you see what he specifically threatened, then you have a tool. Change how you view that, and he will no longer have thatpower over you. Once he sees the change, he will know that it is safe for him there. That alone will not bring him back, but the lack of that sense in him will drive him away. -Mike