Cndy,<P>Harley's approach to marriages is based on behavioral science. His "rules" are relatively common sense behaviors that are employed by people in "successful" marriages.<P>Harley is a "pro-marriage" counselor in the sense that he understands that divorce can have serious consequences for those involved. He won't recommend that you stay in a hopeless situation for "the sake of the marriage" however. He'll help you design a plan based on "levels" of effort and escalation that show your husband the seriousness of the situation. As well as helping you through the process of leaving the marriage in the best shape possible (mentally), should that end up as the outcome.<P>I wish you success.

K - <BR>I found the answer this morning when I sat down on the bed and watched "our" 3 year old peacefully sleeping - and hearing him last night "raving" about his "daddy". It was like having an angel touch my shoulder and say "see his happiness - don't take that way from his little heart". I have broken 2 childrens hearts already thru divorce. I know what the results are. I will not break my 3 year olds heart and separate his life from mommy and daddy. Theres really no reason for me to counsel with anyone anymore - I'm not putting this sweet innocent child thru what my others went thru. He will be raised in a home with me and his father as long as I live or unless my husband walks out on me. I can suffer the circumstances of living with a coldhearted man for the sanity and love and feelings for my kids. Its my only option. <p>[This message has been edited by Cndy (edited May 05, 1999).]

Cndy:<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Theres really no reason for me to counsel with anyone anymore... I can suffer the circumstances of living with a coldhearted man for the sanity and love and feelings for my kids. Its my only option.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>.<P>WRONG, WRONG, WRONG. Your children are precisely the reason you should try another counselor!!! No matter how well you "think" you're doing, you'll be setting a poor example by being a martyr in a loveless marriage. Your 3 year old---if he's a boy, he's going to be a husband JUST LIKE HIS FATHER. If she's a girl, she'll end up in a situation JUST LIKE MOM. <P>I'm betting that you don't want that future for your child.<P>Cndy, I have the same level of committment for my children that you do for yours. I lived through years of unhappiness in a marriage (it wasn't as bad as what you're dealing with). I "survived" my wife's affair. We're rebuilding. A powerful motivator was my love for my children, and my belief that giving them a complete family is the most important thing I could do for them---even if it took sacrifice.<P>But I would have eventually divorced/left my wife, if she had continued her "ways" for a long period of time. I wouldn't have subjected the kids to our marriage with the way that it deteriorated. It wouldn't have been the right example to set for them. It would have harmed them.<P>I'm going to suggest to you once more that you try the counseling here. If you can financially afford it, you have virtually nothing to lose. If it's not effective, you're out a few bucks. If it is, and your husband and you can build your marriage to a loving and supportive relationship, then it's money and time well-spent.<P>Do it for your kids.<P>

Cndy,<P>Find this book: "7 Worst Things Parents Do" by John and Linda Friel. It goes into a lot of depth about how kids are affected by the examples they learn from their parents. I know exactly how you feel Cndy, I'm so torn as well. My 4 year old loves her Daddy so much, and he truly loves her. I struggle so much with what is the "right" thing to do. I know we are showing her an awful example of marriage. We each love her individually, one-on-one, but she sees little love or positive interaction between us. And then of course I don't want to hurt him either, but geez, eventually something's gotta give.<P>I'm very close to giving up myself, I've seen very little indication from my husband that he has any desire to build a strong and loving relationship, at least not at the expense of his drinking habits. I think he wants it to be there, but he doesn't believe in the part about working on it. So we have no way of getting there. So, I step back and try to see the life my daughter is experiencing and the examples she's seeing and learning to believe are "normal". I'm starting to believe that no example is better than this bad example. Cndy, in determining what is best for your kids, you need to think long term, not just what is better for them today. Read that book if you can, talk to Steve Harley. <P>Now I know that it's one thing to know and believe all this, and it's another thing to really make the changes in your life that will get things on a better course. Everything I'm telling you I believe too, but it's just as hard and painful for me to think about the steps I really need to take. I may have to take the chance of breaking my daughter's heart today so that she can have a better life and the ability to make better choices as an adult.<P>Please take care and keep learning... get that book, continue counseling, do it for your self and for your kids.

yy and cndy, i think yy is correct in thinking in the long view of what's best for the children. my 1st w and i divorced after six years and two children. we both moved a lot and i couldn't and didn't see them very often. i have to confess, i wasn't a good father. i loved my children dearly but i had a short temper and frequently lost my temper and became abusive. i'm ashamed of that and regret it. today i'm speak to both of them by phone and see them occasionally. we still live states apart. we have such easy conversations, we just go on and on, it's so easy and fun. they're both good people and are doing well. i give all the credit to my xw. the best result of our divorce was the kids being taken away from my ill temper. i'm glad they didn't have to endure that. i take an antidepressant that not only relieves the depression but also gives me such wonderful patients. i never loose it now. wish they had prozac 30 years ago. things really are better these days.

K - You have given me such good and positive advice and believe me, I take it all to heart. The one thing,though, that I must disagree with is that my 3 yr old son will be just like his dad. NOT if I have anything to do with it. I am with the kids 90% of the time due to his work hours. Most nites, they are in bed when he gets home. The direction, guidelines, love, and personal attention they get are basically from me. All three tend to have MUCH more of my personality than his. Thank goodness. When you say that you would have eventually left your wife is she continued her ways for a long time - - what should be considered a long time? How long is the time period you give someone????? <BR>I can say this though, as afraid as I am to make a change in my life that I already KNOW I should be doing; if my children are EVER put in a situation with him where he harmed or abused them, hit them, or physically did anything to them - he would be gone. Without any hesitation.<BR>We have some bad weather this orning in Georgia - hail, tornados, etc. I called him at home and told him that if the weather is bad around 8 am, I wanted him to drop my 12 year old son off at school so he doesn't have to sit at the busstop in bad weather (this is HIS stepson) - he sarcastically said "he'll be fine - its NOT that bad here". The school is CLOSER to our house (1/2 mile) than the daycare that HIS son goes to. <BR>I see that as "besides the point" - but he doesn't. My son (his stepson) rode the bus. Not just that, but he was off today and couldn't even take him. My husband just called me and he went to daycare and got our 3 year old and brought him home because of the weather. Interesting that it was bad enough to get him - but MY 12 year old was fine at the bus stop? Does he REALLY not realize how this makes me feel? Or is he that stupid?<p>[This message has been edited by Cndy (edited May 06, 1999).]

Cndy:<P>It's very true that you will have an influence on your son's life. But part of that influence is how you deal with your marriage. Your son is learning that it's OK for Dad to never be around on weeknights---he's busy working. You get my drift.<P>I was raised by two of the best people I know (my parents, of course). They are wonderful people. Yet some of my "bad" traits were learned from my dad (well, I got a couple from Mom too... ). It's true that you can teach your kids by "doing what I say, not what I do", but it isn't as effective as setting a good example. And no matter how "wonderful" an example you set, your kids have a predominantly non-participatory father. He can change that (rather easily)---but he's got to find some motivation.<P>It's my personal belief that counseling with Steve has a huge upside potential for you. I hate to see you not take advantage of it. I think it might help you to influence your husband to start working on his marriage.<P>You ask me "how long" I would have tolerated my wife's behaviors? I'm not sure. I did "Plan A" of putting up with her affair while I worked on myself for 6 months. I separated---not becuase I was ready for divorce, but because I couldn't stand the daily pain of her affair. I stated to her that I would not have divorced her, but if she had continued the affair for another 2-3 years, I probably would have (most affairs never last that long). <P>Our marriage has improved tremendously over the last 8 months. That's a pretty short timeframe---the affair was 18 months, and our maritial problems probably started the day we married (11 years). But we still have "major" recovery issues to tackle---for example, my wife and I haven't made love for over 2 years. If you ask me "how long" will I stay in a celibate marriage---I don't really have an answer for you. I believe that I could do this "forever"---but only under an extreme medical situation where it wasn't possible for my wife to fulfill my sexual needs (a note from her doctor isn't cutting it ). Realistically, we haven't started marriage counseling together yet, and we're just about to (both here with Steve---who is not my wife's favorite person), and with another counselor of "internet" fame. I will exhaust every avenue to see that our marriage is restored, for both our sakes. If we really and truly can't do it, then I guess I would contemplate a separation again. And then if that didn't make a difference, divorce.<P>But really, I expect to work another 2-3 years at our marriage (through counseling and any other method we need) before I make a decision to separate. And with the progress of our recovery so far, I'm optimistic that we will be in "great" shape in a few more months. I think we've just hit a snag in the recovery process, and we need some professional guidance together to get through it.<P>Good luck.

PS. To your last line..<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Does he REALLY not realize how this makes me feel? Or is he that stupid?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>.<P>He's really that "stupid", I bet. It's really more an issue of insensitivity. I was like that too (not as bad), but Steve got me asking myself: "How will this make my wife feel" EVERY time that I do something that remotely concerns her. Once you learn the habit, it's VERY, VERY effective. I wasn't stupid---just thoughtless and insensitive. I'm much more thoughtful and sensitive. I haven't changed "who" I am, I've just changed how I behave. And my wife says that it's like being married to a "new" person.

K - I edited the last paragraph of my last message and I want you to read it (about my son) and see what you say. <BR>I think you and your wife stand a VERY good chance at making your marriage work, because you have both of you trying. Both of you are counseling. I pulled out my diary the other night and noted on 14 different occasions that I literally begged my husband to go to counseling for us. I would go with him, alone, whatever he chose to do - but begged him to let US get some advice and help to build our marriage. Steve, nor any counselor at this point is going to get a shot at him; because he will NOT go. I have been to 4 counselors. All 4 recommended him coming too. All 4 times I asked and tried. I also tried all their suggestions. Some,were very closely related to the Marriage Builders Concepts and I did those things. Nothing has worked. I wish he were willing to do 1/10th of what your wife is doing.

Cndy,<P>Trust me, I share your frustration.<P>My wife did a bit of "non-committed" talking with Steve when I first discovered the affair. It was helpful for me because I did get a picture of where her mind was at, but there wasn't any substantive "counseling" for fixing the marriage from her side. That was a year and a half ago. Now we're just to the point of going together (Monday, for Steve... a couple weeks for another counselor). It took me a long time and a lot of effort to get her "to the table".<P>I'm afraid that the real "trump" card you hold is a separation. But that's one that I wouldn't play unless I was sure I had exhausted everything else, and I had professional advice to help me along. And I know how you feel about separation. A little over a year ago I sat in my office here (door closed) and silently sobbed my eyes out until there was a puddle of tears at my feet. I had decided to separate from my wife and two kids. I couldn't imagine not being with my children daily---being involved in their lives all the time. And I couldn't imagine it working out for us, and ending up as an intact family.<P>But I was advised that it was time, that I had done the "good" upfront work. And everything did work out, in the end.<P>And we will make our marriage work---it'll end up GREAT. And participation by both parties will make the difference. I wish that I had a magic trick to convince your husband to start participating, but I don't. I was hoping that Steve might have one up his sleeve (although I can't recall him having one for my wife). Well, I'll always be around here to offer supportive (mainly) advice and ideas. You've got a tough case, Cndy---keep fighting the good fight.<BR>

K - <BR>I'm hanging in, I know by a thread, but hanging in and keeping up trying to be NICE!! I definitely have been told that the separation is my only hope now that it will convince him - but unfortunately either I am not ready to do that (afraid he will go) or afraid of being the one blamed "you threw me out so I went" - which has come back in my face 100 times from my first divorce. All I heard from my ex when he cleaned up his act was "she kicked me out" - "She filed and she divorced ME". I know its only words, but I figure if you separate - you are walking away from the marriage and its problems. My hope is that time is gonna play on my side and either start FIXING things - or destroying them enough that he goes on his own and starts thinking about things. I can't even tell you how many tears I've cried over this whole mess. I don't cry in front of my kids - its something I save up for nighttime. My husband has heard and seen me crying, but has never asked one time whats wrong. Of course, I try not to let him know either. He is so aware of what I want out of this marriage, between 1500 letters I've written, times I've talked at night to him and all he does is listen (and sometimes fall asleep), he KNOWS what we need and he KNOWs I'm willing - - - maybe he knows so much that he feels I will always stay where I am. Maybe he is right and gives him nothing to fight for.

I asked him one more time last night if he would join me next week in going to a marriage counselor. His reply was "nope, I don't need a marriage counselor". I asked him if he would talk to one on the phone and his response was "I just answered that question". Then I said, can we go downstairs and talk without the kids about our marriage and how we can work on it? He said, "not right now, I'm going to sleep" It was 9:15. I said - will you set some time aside to talk to me and just tell me when? He didn't answer. He went to sleep.

Cndy,<P>I'd suggest you find the largest, most detailed book on marriage recovery and...<P>BEAT HIM OVER THE HEAD WITH IT...<P>Sorry, I just got carried away.<P>One way to get him "involved" in this process is to give him the "emotional needs" and "lovebusters" questionnaire forms from this web site. Ask him to do these---tell him that it will benefit HIM, you want to work on some new behaviors to improve the marriage. IF (a big if) he'll do them, you'll get some sense of where you may need to improve in the areas of Protection (lovebusters) and Care (meeting emotional needs). If you then make the changes necessary, he may decide this is to his benefit, and "join" you in the effort.<P>There are a lot of big "ifs" there---he could be a passive slob, fill out the forms, and enjoy the fruits of your labors without participating at all. But you're still a winner---the marriage will be improving, he'll notice, and if and when you're ready to smack him upside the head with a separation, he may actually be more motivated to do something about it.<P>It took me over a year and a half to get my wife to finally "go" to counseling with me (as a participant). And this was through her affair, her forcing our separation, her pregnancy---none of this was "my" choosing. It wasn't fair, but the techniques that I described above are how I got our marriage better, and how I've gotten her to believe that participation will benefit BOTH of us.<P>But I do worry about your situation. It sounds like you've made it very clear to him how you feel, through written and spoken words. He may need a separation to wake him up, and I know that your worry is that even that won't be enough and he'll just end up walking out of your son's life. Well---that's why I suggested you talk w/ Steve---I don't have a really good answer for you.

K - I have Emailed so much information from this site to him at home (this morning) to see if he will read it. Sometimes, I think when he is alone - he reads. So, maybe!! I have also tried the questionnaires but he never filled them out. Today, I feel sorry for him again. Because I know he has a problem and can't talk about it. I know he does. <BR>Now, pounding him over the head with a book might not be a bad idea. Actually, its a better idea than what I had last night which was using my 15 year olds baseball bat to just blow his brains apart. But, then I figured, if I do that, I have to clean up the mess and thats just something else for me to do (LOL!!)<BR>Oh well, I'm not as angry as I have been. Work does me good, I get away from him. Time heals all wounds and pains. <BR>I am putting in ONE phone call to Steve, although thats all. I have spent a lot of money on counseling (a lot more than I should have already) and its been wasted. Not that Steve would be a waste, but when you look at the BIG picture and see the effort he is putting into this (my husband) the chances are that it will be wasted money. Until he changes his mind about us, we're in this stalemate. Its either that, or the bat.

Excuse me if I am about to seemingly give the worst advice possible, but it has been working for me and my wife and I have started connecting again.<P>Simply put, you are not negotiating from a position of strength and therefore need to improve it. He sees you crying, hurting, reaching out; Physically, emotionally etc.<P>Think about all the things you do for HIM on a regular basis. Manage the kids maybe, prepare meals, the majority of the housework, what ever it is and has value to him. Then stop it. Become a little more unpredictable, change your schedule. Miss a few meals, be gone at unusual times. Close down the communication.<P>Afterall, the way things are now, HIS life is going great; you're doing all the work and he invests nothing. So why should he change? Gotta upset that apple cart. Put some doubt in his head, but.. this is very, very important. Don't express anger, just apathy. <BR>Maybe this will escalate emotions and cause anger from him. Do not draw him into a fight.<BR>But which is more dangerous to a marriage? Anger or apathy. Afterall, anger is a PASSIONATE emotion. You cannot possibly not care and be angry at someone at the same time. Much better than having no emotion at all.<P>Give him a dose of his own medicine and after you've worn him down, then and only then, can you bring him to the table to begin the healing process. I'm willing to bet most men are attracted, mystified and fascinated by the woman who appears interested but is "hard to get".<P>If this sounds extremely stupid, sorry. But if your interested in how this worked for me, I'll share.

You know Cndy, sometimes they just don't want what we want, and since what we want requires more work, they're just not going to do it, and no amount of begging or spoiling is going to motivate them to treat us any better. The question always ends up, can we live the rest of our lives this way? Not too long ago following another "discussion" about all this stuff which of course ended up with divore threats from him. I told him that I hope someday he would find someone that he really truly loved to the depths of his heart, who he wanted to be with and share with and talk with and laugh with, who he would do anything for just because he loved them... then maybe he would understand how I feel, and how it hurts so much to be rejected and ignored by someone you love and want to share your life with. I still don't think he gets it, because he just doesn't think that way. I like to blame it all on the alcohol, so that it seems like there's an answer (just stop drinking) but I know that's not necessarily going to make any difference. He's comfortable, and as long as he's comfortable, he's not going to examine himself or make any changes, and he could care less how I feel about things. He firmly believes he has no problems... if I'd just relax (and have a drink once in a awhile) things would be fine.<P>I guess I'm mostly just dumping here, but like I said one time before Cndy, if nothing changes, nothing changes. I'm pretty sure that the only hope I have of seeing a significant change is to leave again (under the guidance of a professional this time) and stay firm. I don't know if I can do it, but I know that's the only thing that might make a difference... it's like buying a car though... I'll have to be willing to walk away.<P>At bedtime last night, my little girl asked me why mommy and daddy argue so much, and why daddy talks to so mean (I didn't think she heard us, this time it was about setting better examples for our daughter)... so one way or another, the arguing has to stop.<P>I'll keep you in my prayers Cndy.

YY - I don't know what the reason is - but me and my husband do not argue. My kids think (wow) that we "never" fight. They say to their friends all the time how we never fight. I did raise my voice last nite to him, though they were in bed so I don't know if they heard or not - but I just don't have the time, or weariness left in me to spend my time "arguing" with him. He is so close mouthed that I am becoming that we; and we say nothing. Its bad. Real bad. If we do separate (and it won't be me leaving - trust me I will NOT leave my home) I too, will do it with professional counseling, because it about killed me after my first divorce. I had a hard time handling my hurt as well as trying to mend my childrens hurt and hearts too. It was so overwhelming trying to do all the right things. <BR>Managing - I pulled a "little" of what your talking about last nite. That was the first time I can remember in 7 years that I didn't either make his supper for him or pick something up for him. He wasn't home when I got there - he and our 3 yr old had gone off and he left no note, nothing. He knows I get home at 5:30. At 6:45 I told the boys (mine from first marriage) LETS GO. We went to grocery store and then out to eat Mexican. Soon as we walked in Mexican rest. my beeper was going off and it was him calling from home. Do you think I called him back? Heck no. I said no way. He didn't let us know where they were, and I decided to give him a taste of his own medecine. It about KILLED me going home without any supper for him - not knowing if he ate or not and he said nothing. After about an hour or so I gave my 3 year old a bath and I guess he figured "he was on his own for dinner" and got up and fixed some grilled cheeses for himself and went to bed. The weekends that my older 2 boys go to their dads (like this weekend) are the toughest. I have my worst weekends then. But, I will see them Saturday at my sons ball game and Sunday my ex told me he would bring them in the morning to spend mothers day with me. My ex always gets the boys and goes shopping for a gift for me. My husband has never even given me a card for mothers day.

Cndy,<P>My husband and I didn't used to fight either, I just sucked it up and rationalized everything away and tried to be "supportive" and "understanding"... then after a "last straw" event, I slowly began unraveling and then finally snapped. Of course, since I didn't immediately react to that event he can't understand why I've "changed" so much. He blames all our troubles on the fact that "I've" changed... and in a way, he's right, I should have shared my feelings and concerns and hurts all along instead of making excuses to myself for his behavior. So now he wishes things were the way they "used" to be, that I would be the way I "used" to be, but I can't go back. I know I have to give up and "shut up" because we can't have a reasonable two-sided discussion and I can't have my daughter hearing any more of this or feeling any more tension. So I don't know what I'm going to do... I know I can support myself and make a new home for my daughter if I have to, I learned that from our separation last year. The only way we'll ever separate is if I leave, he'd rather be in HIS home and have us both miserable. He only thinks of himself. He knows I would have our daughter most of the time because of his drinking, but he still puts himself ahead of even her. He would rather see her have to move then let her remain in HER home. Or he knows how guilty I feel with the thought of how this all affects her, and he's using that to manipulate me and get his own way. He won't budge on anything so all decisions and actions are up to me. So it sure makes me seem like the selfish one disrupting everyone's life just because I'm not happy.<P>Oh, so back to my point... sorry for dumping... Cndy, if you keep holding it all in, eventually you're probably going to break. I held it all in for a long time, and now I realize I wasn't doing anyone any favors. You're hurting inside, and it probably hurts even more when you have the "what could have been" in your face so often with your ex. At the very least you should probably continue counseling for yourself until you find a "comfortable place to be" emotionally.<P>I don't know if I'm helping, I'm doing alot of babbling... I'm approaching a crossroads myself and it's scary, and either path hurts.<P>Oh well, at least it's Friday.

Cndy,<P>I'm sending you a bat for mother's day...<P> <P>Sorry, couldn't help myself again. I don't think that Managing's advice is necessarily "bad"---I like resolving things by setting positive examples. But your husband may think that his married life is just peachy, and he's happy with the status quo. "Wake up" strategies like Managing's can be effective, but it's probably best done with the benefit of a counselor who's got the foresight on how to handle potential pitfalls.<BR>

Cndy,<P>You go girl!<P>But for K's benefit as well, let me articulate my opinion a little further.<P>Be careful of "professionals". I'm one, and constantly amazed by my industry peers that have no clue as to what they are doing. (However, this is not a slam on Harley.)<P>Two couples that we know very well are marriage and family counselors and are both going through painful divorces and the lack of communication in these unions was dramatic and bizarre. One of these couples mentored John Gray. John went on to write "Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus." John, himself, is on his third marriage. In my opinion the "experts" are couples in happy, long-term relationships. <P>The most successful people I have ever met and worked with had two common traits. First they turned negative situations into positive results. Twice I have worked for people that lost everything in the business world and turned their situation through the rubble to build a better situation. Use your negatives as motivation. The second trait, is a remarkably positive outlook on life. You have to "see" and truly believe in a better result.<P>Finally, some people just will not respect you if you don't take a stand and be willing to go toe to toe and live with the consequences. I feel that if Cndy can keep anger out of the equation, and stop enabling her husband, he will be forced to deal with her issues. Maybe one day, he will make her a meal or at least clean up after one.<P>Happy Mothers Day Cndy!