Tacsi,<P>Don't be too shocked about your spouse viewing things entirely differently than you did about your marriage. It is VERY common with Wayward Spouses (WS). I call it "RTR - Re-writing The Relationship" and I think it is a common human behavior. <P>[my opinion here...]<BR>When someone does something that seems to go against the "rules/morals" of society (ie. divorce), I believe they begin to have an internal argument with themselves. On one hand they realize that what they are doing is wrong, but on the other hand they feel they 'need' to keep doing it (for instance, affairs). One common solution they come up with is to look anywhere they can to find 'evidence' as to why what they are doing is OK and is the "right" thing to do - even if those around them don't agree. So they go back through the relationship and overlook the good times while only focusing on the "bad times" - They not only focus on them, they enlarge these memories until they are not single isolated incidents - they ARE the relationship - they ARE the marriage. The Betrayed Spouse (BS) on the other hand is only focusing on the good times. They do remember the bad times, but to them the bad times were isolated incidents and the good times far outweigh the bad.<P>Well that what version represents the "real" relationship? I like how a friend put it - "when trying to figure out what is going on with a couple's divorce, you take both sides of the story and usually the truth is somewhere in the middle". <P>"The Fog" as it is called here, is when the WS swings so far to the direction of focusing only on the negative, that they almost forget the good times even existed. As the fog lifts (if ever), the WS begins to flow back towards the middle and begins to realize that not only were there good times, there were many more good times than bad.<P>For me, when my wife began telling my how awful our marriage was, I could not believe it (at first). But after days/weeks/months of hearing her talk, I actually began to believe her - that our marriage was horrible. Only after she moved out did I begin to open up to others about it. From talking with them and from really going back and disecting the marriage did I realize just how clouded her image of our relationship was.<P>One great idea I had was to begin to write down all the "great" days I could remember spending with her - not "good" days but great days where we both enjoyed each other. While the process started out slowly, before I knew it I was pulling days out from nowhere! As I began to travel back through our history, I was amazed at how much I had forgotten. Then when I had a couple hundred days written down (now remember these are great days - not just days where we were just "happy" with each other - because most days were like that as I discovered), I presented the list to her. You know what her reaction was after reading the list? "Yeah I remember these times and I know I can come up with a lot more to add here." She went to give the list back to me, but I told her to keep it, because I "remember" the good times - the great times we had...<P>So long story short, don't discount your memory of your marriage just because of what your wife might be saying. For you have no reason to rewrite the relationship, where she may have a lot of reason to do just that...<P>God Bless,<BR>Mike<P>------------------<BR>God always waits for the right time to do the right thing in the right way.<p>[This message has been edited by SoTired2000 (edited July 26, 2001).]

Tacsi,<P>For whatever its worth. I don't think you were just using her to get a green card. I don't think my wife was using me either. I don't know your story - 'tho I think I saw you on another thread. I wish you success.<P>-AD

Tacsi,<P>One other thing...<P>My W, too told me that she "never loved me". This is, I think not only what SoTired said - but also a phenominon which I forget the name of - read it in some relationship book. Anyway, what happens is that a person has a bias in remembering emotions - so that whatever he/she is feeling right now is what is remembered. It is very hard to really remember the feeling of being in love when you are not in love. To remember it is to be it - so to speak. When a person is not in love, she cannot remember being in love. I'll try to find the reference/book if anybody's interested in more on this theory.<P>BTW. She DID love me. I (at least) DO remember the feeling of being loved. I don't think she could fake it. I'll bet your W truely loved you too.<P>-AD

Abondoneddad,<P>I would be very interested in the reference if you can find it!<P>Thanks.<P>God Bless,<BR>Mike<P>------------------<BR>God always waits for the right time to do the right thing in the right way.

SoTired,<P>Darn! Now I have to look it up I have a TON of those books!<P>Later...<P>-AD

SoTired,<P>Ok, it's in "Divorce Busting", by Michele Weiner-Davis, (ISBN 0-671-79725-5) page 62, under the heading "I Never Loved Him (Her) to Begin With"<P>"...the conclusion 'I never loved him (her) to begin with' is often the result of selective memory. Research shows that individuals preferentially remember those past events and experiences which are congruent with their current moods and attitueds. For example, when depressed people are asked to reminisce about their lives, what they recall are depressing events."<P>-AD<P>

AbandonedDad,<P>Yes indeed, my wife loved me. I know this because I remember the fire of passion and caring and love in her eyes. I still see that face in front of my eyes and I am starting to cry right now.<BR>I also found some of her journals/diaries the other day. I don't know if I should have or not, but I read some segments from them. Here is one quote from December 31,1997 (I was visiting my parents in Europe for X-mas that year): "Tacsi has been gone for two weeks and I miss him a lot. In his absence, I realize all the places he fits in my life. Things just don't function properly when he's not here!" Reading this, my heart is breaking up into a million pieces. I should have never found that journal!!! Why do I want to inflict more pain on myself?<P><BR>

Tacsi,<P>Nobody has ever seen this letter but me, but I'll give you an excerpt. This was written by my W before we were married - when she was staying at my house (in seperate room, my Mom was here as "chaperone").<P>"I am so happy now. I am happy because you are near me, I am happy if you are happy. I am praying that God will give us many years together.<P>[...]<P>It is both wonderful and threatening to be here with you. It is wonderful because I would give up anything to be with you but in the same time it is so painful, so devastating. It is a high privilege for me to be able to spent time with you doing anything; talking, praying together and studying the Bible, shopping. I also have enjoyed and learned a lot from conversations with your Mom. "<P>When I reminded her of this letter and read it to her over the phone a few weeks ago - she said it was just a lie. That she really didn't feel that way. I don't think she has the capacity to lie like that.<P>-AD

AD,<P>I think SoTired2000 was right on the money with his RTR behavior opinion. Indeed, people are conciously hiding moments from their past into the darkest corners of their minds. They just pretend it never existed. This just popped an interesting thought into my head: maybe I should just pretend that our marriage never existed, therefore I don't have any pain now. Wouldn't be easy if I could do this? Just flip a switch, erase the last seven years from my memory and wake up tomorrow morning like I never even knew or met Michelle. I'd rather have the pain, agony and seven years worth of good memories.<BR>

Tasci,<P>--------<BR>"They just pretend it never existed. This just popped an interesting thought into my head: maybe I should just pretend that our marriage never existed, therefore I don't have any pain now. Wouldn't be easy if I could do this? Just flip a switch..."<BR>-------<P>The problem is (and one that our spouses will find out sometime in their future), is that you can only "repress" thoughts and memories for so long before they begin to slip back into your head, or even worse coming flooding back all at once. An example of this is someone who has been sexually abused as a child - during their early youth they may be able to "lock it away" and not deal with the pain, but one day, usually in their late twenties to early thirties, those painful memories begin to resurface...<P>You can only fool your mind for so long...<P>Mike<P>------------------<BR>God always waits for the right time to do the right thing in the right way.

Mike,<P>I think I know and understand what you are trying to say. I remember, when I was a kid, my dad used to come home drunk in the evenings, picked fights with my mom and beat her up. As I grew older, I stepped between them, so he would hit me and not my mom. When I got even older, I pushed him away and was ready to defend my mom. I was ready to punch him, just to protect Mom. Luckily, never got that far and as years passed by, my father calmed down somewhat. <BR>When I got away from home, I tried to forget these awful times and pretended they never took place. Sometimes if we had a heated conversation with my wife, I just stopped saying things and walked away. I was afraid. I didn't know if I have my father's monster in me or not. I was afraid to test my limits, because I didn't want to hurt my wife. I didn't want to be like my father.<BR>I could never really talk about this to my wife. I told her, that my father beat up my mom, but could never go in details. I could also, never explain to her, why am I walking away from conversations or why am I keeping things inside me. I was afraid to disturb that memory. I was afraid it might come back and will start haunting me again.

Tacsi,<P>I think what you just wrote here is something you need to share with your wife. By sharing the memories you won't be risking those actions reappearing in your life, rather you will be opening up and sharing with your wife something very intimate to you. That is the kind of sharing that helps keep the marital bond strong. And by just talking to her about it, it will help you as well - And when you do argue and you walk away, she will be more understanding as to why....<P>Let me put it to you another way - My X has a few "issues" that I know of, but don't know "about". They were/are too painful for her to talk about. I believe that not talking about those memories actually drove her away from me - for she couldn't convey her innermost thoughts to me. That hurt me as well - I felt like I did not mean enough to her for her to share those thoughts with me. Now I know how the past can really tear someone up inside and I would never be angry with her for not sharing, but never-the-less it still hurt me inside and she lost out on the support and comfort I would have given to her...<P>No matter what they are, secrets are not good in a marriage. They cause "distance" between the two spouses... <P>And when you walked away from your wife, since you never told her why, who knows what she thought.....<P>Mike<P>------------------<BR>God always waits for the right time to do the right thing in the right way.

Mike,<P>I agree with you. I think I should share my "memories" with my soon-to-be X. I hope I will have the strenght to do it. But, I just don't know if the timing is right. I am afraid, that if I tell her about this now, she'd say that this is just another trick or excuse to get her back with me. I think I will have to wait for the storm to calm down and then tell her about my experiences. Don't you agree?

Well Gang, I am out of here until Sunday evening. I am going up into the mountains with two of my friends. We will spend the weekend there in a cabin. Will go for hikes, cook some steaks and keep each other's company. Hopefully, I can catch a little break from reality.<P>Wish you all a wonderful weekend. Talk to you Sunday.<P>God bless you all.<P>Tacsi

A Good Man,<P>I've just read through at least most of this thread.<P>First, to answer your question, no your situation is nothing like unique. The person who did you the most service IMO is the one who gave you the Plan A, Plan B link.<P>When someone clicks on the link to these forums, they are presented with the following, which I'm going to cut and paste:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B><BR>Before participating in the forum, please follow these guidelines: <P>1. If you are having difficulty resolving a marital conflict, first read Dr. Harley's Basic Concepts. <BR>2. If you have a question after reading the Basic Concepts, look over the Summary of Q&A Columns to see if your question has already been asked. <BR>3. If your question has not been asked in any of the Q&A Columns, or if it was not answered to your satisfaction, then we encourage you to post your question on this Marriage Builders Forum.<BR><HR></BLOCKQUOTE></B><BR> <BR>Dr. Harley has counseled thousands of people in troubled marriages, and I think that most here would agree with me that his principles and methods are the best hope for troubled marriages. Other methods and experts may often be helpful but I think you're best served by first learning the MB concepts (ie Dr. Harley's), then considering how they may mesh with or not mesh with other concepts.<P>I like Dr. Dobson and may have even read much of the "Tough Love" stuff before. From what I know I think that it has some validity and may for the most part not conflict with the concepts which unlie the Plan A and Plan B concepts. However, if you just pick "Tough Love" and apply it without understanding the MB concepts then the odds are very good that you will lose your marriage. You'll have much better odds if you start with a thorough understanding of Plan A, Plan B, the articles and Q&As on the main web site IMO.<P>Those who come to the forums for a quick answer don't seem to me to have very good luck in restoring their marriage. You should first read and understand what the real expert (Harley) has to say then, agree or disagree, you will have a better basis for making wise decisions about your marriage. You seem like you're willing to put in the work; I hope so, as recovery is not easy.<P>Two other comments. One, people post in various forums, and I am not divorcing/divorced. However, which there are a lot of people in D/D who are very MB astute, you might try others such as General Questions II if you have not done so yet. Maybe you have, there are just too many for me to remember them all.<P>Second, giving your wife the impression that you don't care is a <B>bad idea</B> IMO. Being strong, rather than clingy, being loving rather than controlling is a <B>good idea</B>. Basically in Plan A you let your spouse know that you care and do take responsibility for your part in the weakness in your marriage that let your spouse be vulnerable to an affair, though <B>not</B> for their wrong decision to have one. In Plan B you enforce boundaries and let them know that they can't have their cake and eat it too, that you are strong enough to have your own life without them <B>if necessary</B>, and end contact to preserve what love you have for them.<P>Good luck, its a tough road, but you can become a better you and probably save your marriage if you do the work.<P>Steve

Steve (StillHers),<P>I was thinking about replying to your post - while I went to the kitchen and ate a little ice cream Have you tried Breyers Moca Almond Fudge. Pretty good - but the Almonds get stuck in your teeth.<P>I'm glad that you have a great confidence in the Harley's approach. <P>In my own experence, my W and I read His Needs / Her Needs before we married. We did the emotional needs surveys and ranked our EN's. We were amazed to find that even though we did this seperately - when we ranked the EN's the first 7 EN's in each of our list were in exactly the same order. So, we assumed that we were very compatible, and we each could just do for the other what we knew was good for ourselves. Well, we've had terrible problems - and are now separated. So much for that.<P>I'm not saying that the Harley's approach is wrong. I wouldn't be here if I thought so. I just think that marriage is very complicated and there are many views on how best to nuture your relationships. I have found that reading a number of books by different experts and applying those things that make sense in our situation is a more effective approach than just turning my life over to the Harleys for them to run. There are thousands of books on relationships - by many different "experts". Almost all of them begin something like this<BR>"After studying at the university to become a counselor I began counseling married couples and I found that the conventional approaches that I learned in school didn't work, so I started doing my own research and discovered a revolutionary approach that finally gave me a tool that I could use to help people" etc. etc.<P>There are variations on the theme. Are all these people hucksters? No. They each have looked at the problem from slightly different perspectives - using different approaches to finding solutions.<P>Some of them are "scientists" to the extent that any social scientist is truely a scientist - they have used the scientific method to try to solve the problems. They form a theory, test it, evaluate the results of applying it, reform the theory etc.<P>Some of them are therapists/counselors who, by a less formal path have come to some conclusions that they feel are helpful.<P>When a person is in a marriage crisis - he or she is desparate for a solution - and in this state of despair, any "expert" who confidently says "I know how to fix this" will certainly be listened to - and if what he says seems to make sence, it is easy for this very vulnerable, desperate person to assume that he or she has met with true greatness. This is only natural. Later, perhaps, disillusionment will set in. I try to insulate myself against that. I read a variety of books - I listen to my counselor - I listen to my friends - I listen to folks on this forum - and I try to chose an approach which best seems to fit my situation. It is always easy for the messianic expert to say "you failed because you didn't perfectly apply my priciples." But intellegent people will understand that there is no guaranteed solution and we each most take responsibility for our own lives - not turn that responsibility over to any expert or counselor - at least not completely.<P>BTW, responsible "experts" don't claim that they have a guaranteed system - or that they know all the answers. (Perhaps, they don't even employ their sons and daughters to pass on the family dynasty - but I'm not sure about that.) Neither the Harley's nor Dobson claim a guaranteed result.<P>That's my take on it.<P>BTW. I've just about got the almonds out of my teeth - and am thinking about going back for another serving. <P>-AD<BR><p>[This message has been edited by AbandonedDad (edited July 27, 2001).]

AD,<P>Interesting post. The ice cream sounds good .<P>A lot of people on these forums say "I agree with the Harleys <B>but</B> or "I don't agree with all that the Harleys say". Usually, if they've read the material and put some work into things it seems to me that they really disagree with some aspect of the <B>application</B> of the underlying principles in their particular case.<P>I don't think that the Harleys really think that one plan fits all, but rather have some underlying concepts and that the "classic" Plan A, Plan B tends to be the most effective application of these principles which works for the most people.<P>Obviously, there is no magic. A Good Man may decide to do something different, but I think he is foolish if he doesn't take the time to study the Harley's writings as a starting point for understand marital dynamics and how to fix his marriage. You have done this; he, it seems, has not.<P>One point, having the same ENs is not the same as being great at meeting your spouse's ENs and at avoiding LBs.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B><BR>I'm not saying that the Harley's approach is wrong. I wouldn't be here if I thought so. I just think that marriage is very complicated and there are many views on how best to nuture your relationships. I have found that reading a number of books by different experts and applying those things that make sense in our situation is a more effective approach than just turning my life over to the Harleys for them to run. <BR><HR></BLOCKQUOTE></B><BR>This sounds like a road map to confusion to me. I've always believed that if proposition A conflicts with proposition B, then both can't be true. Now it may be that because of some aspects of particular relationships that one approach works in some cases but another works in other cases.<P>I think it better to find someone whose approach you can largely buy into, and implement it, perhaps modified by some other insights relevant to your situation. I've seen too many people come here and post, then hope for simple answers by other people whose relationships are in trouble.<P>My take: do the reading and either agree or disagree with Dr. Harley, in whole or in part. But do so with some specifics which indicate that you at least have read and understood the writings of someone who at least has been helpful to many in restoring relationships.<P>What's wrong with that?<P>Steve

Steve,<P>I'm enjoying this discussion. Please don't be offended if I disagree with you. OK.<P>Let me have another go at what I've been trying to say. You say that reading several books and trying to apply the best from all of them is "a road map for confusion". I disagree.<P>Let me give an example. The Harleys say that "The codependency movement is a great danger to marriages" or something like that. Ok, let's assume that they are 100% correct about this.<P>Now, envision this poor soul - her marriage is in tatters. She's miserable, desparate. She doesn't know what to do. She can't afford counseling. She's afraid to talk to her friends about it. Finally she decides to see if she can read something that will help. She goes to the bookstore - to the relationships aisle. There are thousands of books. She has no idea where to begin. She's standing there, looking confused, when another customer spots her and approaches. "Having a problem figuring out what to read?", the lady asks. "Yes, I had no idea there were so many books by so many authors on this subject", replies our suffering friend. "Let me help you", says the lady. "I was having a terrible time in my marriage until I read this", she says - pulling out a book on co-dependency. "Thanks so very much!" says our friend, with obvious relief. So, she goes home and reads the poisonous, misguided lies (assuming Harleys are correct) and, thinking they look like good ideas, tries to apply them to her life and ends up divorsed, lonely and miserable.<P>So, what happened? She read one book and turned her life over to the "experts". That's what. Steve, are you absolutely sure that the Harley's have the one true answer and that all the others are wrong? How do you know? Was one of their books the first relationship / marriage book you read? I'm not trying to be condescending here - so if I offend, please forgive me. What I'm saying here is that until we evaluate the alternatives, we don't know for sure what is the correct path. We must be able to trust our own minds - balanced with the advice of friends, experts etc. We live in a society that practices trial by jury of peers - rather than trial by experts. There is a fundamental trust in the ability of average people to make reasonable judgements about complicated things. We must be able to trust ourselves to judge the material that is available and come to our own conclusions. If we read only one book - or the works of only one expert - or only one "school" of experts - and we accept them as an autority figure that knows more than we do - even if it doesn't fit with our own experience, then we become less than we can be. We are at the mercy of the winds.<P>That's only my opionion.<P>-AD

My appolgies to "A Good Man" for digressing on his thread. I've seen his new thread and he seems to be getting some encouraging results from the Dobson approach.

AD,<P>It's late, and I'm probably going to try to get up early to put in an hour or so on my bike in the morning. So, I'm probably going to be quick with this .<P>I don't really disagree with you about thinking for yourself. I don't think that the Harleys would claim that one plan fits all either.<P>For example, I've always said that the Harley books, which I think are the best I've seen (a limited selection, admittedly), don't address such things as major FOO issues, major mental health issues, addiction problems, etc. I don't think that the Harleys would claim otherwise.<P>It's sort of like economics. If you've ever had a college econ. course, they start out saying "we assume this and that, which isn't totally real world, but given these assumptions, this is what our model says". I do think that the Harley model at least fairly accurately describes the process of creating love between two partners in a way that is realistic and practical in my experience.<P>What I was thinking, and perhaps did not say very well, is that multiple <B>contradictory</B> models of relationships either can't all be right, or else are describing relationships between different kinds of people.<P>It's very difficult to integrate a lot of different models if you don't start with one which you think contains a fair amount of truth as a starting point.<P>I'm reviewing the thread and just read your part about losing the post because of a power failure. Seriously think about a UPS--it may save your sanity .<P>What I've seen about "tough love" talks about "opening the cage" of our spouse. That's fine--I don't think that begging or pleading or inducing guilt is going to work with someone in an affair. But there needs to be more to the plan--making changes in us to show that we can be the spouse that our spouse thought they were getting when they married us, which is the point of Plan A.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B><BR>We must be able to trust our own minds - balanced with the advice of friends, experts etc<BR><HR></BLOCKQUOTE></B><BR>Can't say that I disagree--although it's doubtful how trustworthy we are . My point is that the Harleys are experts who have helped a lot of people. Social "science" is sometimes of doubtful benefit, but my impression is that the Harleys have had better success than most (no, I can't prove it rigorously), and are at least a good starting point for thinking about these things. Again, I'd recommend that "A Good Man" read and understand what Dr. Harley has written, whether he agrees in toto or not. Right now, he seems to be relying on just the few who have posted--a pretty darned smart group IMO, but not with Dr. Harley's experience.<P>I'll check out the new thread, but I've learned that these things are a marathon, not a sprint.<P>AD, so do you think that the Harley methods didn't work in your case? Do you have some thoughts about when they do or don't work? How about in the case of "A Good Man"?<P>I'll check in tomorrow, the forum is yours .<P>Steve