Mike,<P>I sense that you are a little hurt that you've come up with something that you feel is highly significant over on your Modeling thread - and we haven't taken the time to read it, comment on it and take it seriously. Maybe if you could post a "modeling lite" that was a little more accessible introduction, it would be easier for us to review it. I, for one, will give it a look.<P>-AD

Okay...I wil try this one more time, and please bear with me.<P>1. I posted it for laura_lee primarily, because she had started a thread on modeling after talking to Steve about it.<P>2. I honestly don't mind that it hasn't lit the world on fire...it's not for everyone, that much is certain. It is after all, just information.<P>3. It is necessarily technical for two reasons:<BR> a. It deals with the mechanics of emotions, not the emotions themselves.<BR> b. That's the way I write, and that is the way NLP is delivered. There is a lot of NLP specific terminology, and it is 'heady' stuff, not 'heart' stuff.<P>4. I was not irritated that no one had read it, I was frustrated about the general lack of real world solutions in this entire process, not so much at anyone in particular. The posts were good...they were supportive. I stand behind what I said before.<P>Let me try to backpeddle a little more by quoting from an NLP book that I have:<BR> 'There is no such thing as failure in communication - you always succeed in communicating something. It just may not be what you intended to put across.'<P>One statement offended me...I said that before, no need to say it again, although I just did.<P>Read it, or don't...that is fine by me...honestly. I posted it because I have been discussing it with some folks as an alternative to letting life happen to us. Its not everyone's solution. I feel it is mine, however.<P>I respect and admire everyone's opinion, and if I have implied otherwise, I have miscommunicated my position, much to my chagrin. Again, <B>I apologize for that,</B> but that is all.<P>Unfortunately, I know of no lite version of this. That is a either limitation of mine, or reality. I don't know which, although obviously I feel that that is the reality of the situation. These are complex issues, their solution must be equally complex. IMHO -Mike

Mike,<P>What's NLP?<P>-AD

Mike,<P>I'm a 3D graphics, visualization programmer. I like technical things. But, almost all technical things have some essential kernel of knowledge. In my work, finding that kernel is often a key to building an efficient solution to a problem. For example, you can do all of your 3D graphics calculations with dot products, cross products, vector addition and scaling of 3D vectors. You can also do it with 4x4 "homogeneous" matrices. To me, the 4x4's are less intuitive. I rarely use them - tho they are considered bread and butter to many graphics guys. Different strokes for different folks. I like to use the basic tools rather than the fancy ones. Another example. You can buy a 1500 page book on programming that will be less helpful that a 150 page book.<P>Maybe if you gave it one more try you could find a few basic priciples to provide to us as an intro. Since we all really desparately want solutions to our problems, we might respond to that.<P>Thanks,<P>-AD

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by waiting_for_her:<BR><B>Magical wish-fulfilling formula? What are you talking about?</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I was referring to the idea that if I can just find the 'right' action, or just find the 'right' words, or just find the 'right' tone of voice in which to say them, I will be able to 'fix' my situation, to induce my spouse to do what I want and hope. There <I>is</I> no magical formula, because we <I>cannot</I> control the decisions and attitudes of another.<P>The 'right' thing to do is the 'right' thing to do <I>regardless</I> of the outcome.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>GNP, faith alone is not the answer...the Bible tells you that...living 'righteously' is a highly subjective thing, plus is does absolutely nothing by itself, save make one feel bad about being good, unless of course that person's ego can be serviced by being alone, and righteous. I said it in the Models thread, and several other places...these are not answers, they are platitudes, and they represent a 'magical wish-fulfillment' process...eat right, exercise, take anti-depressants, plan A...that has zero tangible content.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>The Bible tells me that living righteously makes me feel bad about being good? Where? Or do you mean the Bible tells me that faith alone is not the answer?<P>No, faith is <I>not</I> the answer. <I>Love</I> is the answer. (See I Corinthians 13.) Love of God, love of self, and love of others. And just as "faith without works is dead" (James 2:26), so is love without works. A righteous life, <I>when motivated by love</I>, is never empty of value, and it is always the best thing <I>for me</I>. The Bible does not make a distinction between sin and foolishness. (Have a look at Cornelius Plantinga's excellent article on <A HREF="http://www.firstthings.com/ftissues/ft9410/plant.html" TARGET=_blank>The Sinner and the Fool</A>.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>I took specific offense at GNP's statement about 'some magical wish-fulfillment formula'...and the further implication that simply living righteously would somehow make your life work...IMHO, that is a sure fire 'formula' for misery. I am using my life as an example in this case, because that is the exact thing I have done for 38 years, what my parents do, and it causes many problems, not the least of which is the breakdown of my marriage, and a general resentment for 'the establishment'. Not where I want to be.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Living righteously without love is called "legalism", and I'd guess that calling it "a sure fire 'formula' for misery" is pretty accurate.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>...I did not appreciate the sense that I got that my post constituted the wish-fulfilling formula...quite the contrary...it is a methodical procedure for creating real, and lasting substantial change. I stated that if someone disagreed, that is their prerogative, but I find it rude to dismiss it outright, and not give an alternative with substance...I'd rather they keep that to themselves, that is all.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Um, Mike, the "magical wish-fulfilling formula" phrase had <I>nothing</I> to do with your 'Models' thread. If I wanted to disagree with you, I wouldn't do it obliquely, and I <I>never</I> dismiss anything outright. I chose that phrase because that's basically what <I>I</I> was trying to do for so long in <I>my</I> marriage: find that magic phrase like "open sesame", or that magic tone or mannerism that would reach past my wife's walls and let her see that I really loved her, and that it was okay for her to let down her guard.<BR>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BrambleRose:<BR><B>selfishness is NOT self-love</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Ooh, yeah! Thanks, this is a good time for me to be reminded of that, as I ponder M. Scott Peck's definition of "love" in <A HREF="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0684847248/qid=996349733/sr=2-2/ref=aps_sr_b_1_2/103-3131122-5946231" TARGET=_blank>The Road Less Traveled</A>: "the will to extend one's self for the purpose of nurturing one's own or another's spiritual growth". As I have said before, I believe that the opposite of love is fear. Thus self-love leads one to extend oneself <I>through</I> one's fear into the inherent risk of growth, whereas selfishness submits to fear and draws one into oneself.<BR>

Hi <B>Nicole</B> ~<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><BR>How are your kids feeling?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>They are a bit overwhelmed, as am I, with all of the rapid changes. It's been a month of talks and planning, and now we are actually DOING, and they are very VERY happy their dad is home, but...its going to take some adjusting. They were very used to my being the only real parent for 18 months.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>What are you "accepting" that won't change and what are you willing to change THIS time 'round with your H? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Acceptance. Argh. My biggest struggle!!<P>I'm working on the fact that my H is an alcoholic. He's doing and saying ALL the right things right now. But...<P>Bleah. I have to confess that I am actually pretty depressed at going back into this marriage. I chose it. And I had some very good reasons for doing so. <P>So in some ways, you and I have a great deal in common right now. <P>I have a tendency, no, not a tendency, I have a problem with losing myself. I think I may have posted this in another thread awhile back, but my H becomes the center of all of my focus and attention. He's been my Higher Power in a very unhealthy fashion, replacing God. <P>This is going to be a very difficult struggle for me.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>ps - does everyone in AlAnon have a sponsor? You sound so blessed with her! Hey, I'm reading a very good book now that talks about life's stories by a bunch of Catholic women... I have thought of you a few times while reading it. Here's the title: Holding Hands with God: Catholic Women Share Their Stories of Courage and Hope edited by Ronda Chervin. It's so powerful... especially the first story on the ABUSES of human dignity. God help me NOT to pass this on to my children!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Its a personal choice to have a sponsor in Al-Anon, but its highly recommended if you want to get the most out of the program. My sponsor has been working a 12 step program for 15 years. She has alot of wisdom to pass on to me!<P>The book sounds interesting...I'll check it out!!! Thanks for the recommendation!!<P>------------------<BR><I>Pain is a given, misery is optional.</I>

So, what is the modus operandi...? How can you just start sleeping in the same room, going back to making joint decisions... oh my gosh, what a scary deal this must be for you.<P>Okay, let me not freak you out either.<P>We're here and want to help you walk through this so you're NOT a martyr and that you establish healthy boundaries and that you take care of yourself.<P>Please post...<P>Take care!<BR>Nicole<P>------------------<BR><I>The new country is where you are called to go, and the only way to go there is naked and vulnerable</I> ~ Henri Nouwen