Part Two:<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B> You have thanked me frequently, to a degree I would have thought to be more than adequate. Just how much thanks do you consider necessary? Perhaps this points to another personality difference, and my own expressions of gratitude generally tend to be substandard. I shall have to watch for this... </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Well, this is more interesting!! I am glad to hear that you feel I have thanked you adequately. YAY!! My own personal philosophy is that if you appreciate something or someone, let them know—kind of like a carpe diem theme. Seize the chance to say something. So, if you feel some gratitude—good for me, that means I’m doing a good job! You ask, "how much thanks to you consider necessary"? Gee—that’s hard to quantify. I’d say, periodically, when a person feels gratitude, they should express it; however, since I am a Feeler and feel stuff all the time, I probably express it more often than most, because I feel more often than most. Doesn’t that at least SOUND logical? If you’re asking my personal preference, I like to feel admired and appreciated (it’s one of my top four ENs) so when other folks thank me, I feel like skipping and whistling. Last but not least, you point out that this is probably another personality difference. I agree. <P>So, my quick question to you is this: have I been expressing gratitude to YOU in a way that is more in line with my personality type? If so, what would be more in line with YOUR personality type? Is there any particular way that you personally like to have gratitude expressed?<P><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B> (I am still struggling to understand the purpose behind simple greetings, as when you pass someone you know - or don't know - in the hall. You see each other, and it is clear that both of you are aware of the other's presence, so what is there to say? The mystery behind the rituals doesn't preclude me from following them, at least to a passable extent, but I doubt I will ever achieve an instinctive level of socialization.) </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Are you saying that expressing gratitude in an acceptable way—up to standard, if you will—is similar to following the social rules of acknowledging a stranger as you pass them? In simpler terms, are these just "rules of behavior" that you know are what people expect of you, but that you don’t really do naturally? If so . . . gee, don’t you get awfully tired trying to figure out which rule applies, and when, and to what extent? There is such a myriad of overlapping social rules, that I would think it would be almost impossible to "get it right" just by evaluating which rule applies! <P><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B> Well, you're certainly welcome, but I hope you don't become too much of a Thinker. If you get stopped from following your intuition too often, paralysis might ensue, and then you get to start thinking about what you're not doing and why. </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>WOW! First, just so you know, I have learned to trust my intuition for the most part (except of course where it applies to my love life)!! I have no idea how it works or why, and at times I have tried to sit and figure it out, but there is always some little piece I can’t lay my finger on that seems to be instinct. Anyway, do you find this paralysis to be an issue in yourself? The reason I ask is that you are both Intuitive and Thinking, and I wonder if that combination grinds you to a halt sometimes. And if you KNOW that paralysis can be a problem because you’re thinking about what you’re NOT doing, then can you stop the paralysis ahead of time? <P><BR>In the final episode, Luke finally finds out who his father is...oops! That's a different story! Here comes Part Three! <P>CJ<P>------------------<BR>Judge your success by what you had to give up in order to get it.

Part Three:<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B> Ever since I got my last degree I dreamed about getting a doctorate, becoming a philosopher scientist, and dwelling in the hallowed halls of academia. But the more I researched the idea the more I came to suspect that if I were to follow the siren call of my dream I would discover that those halls were more hellhole than hallowed. I have little tolerance for personal politics and little interest in grantsmanship. But while the idea of an academic career has lost most of its luster, the dream of getting a doctorate remains. Of late I have actually begun to consider the idea of looking into psychotherapy as a second or secondary career. </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Eek, is right!!! OMG—Gnome de Plume as a Psycho Therapist! Heehee. If you lay down here on the couch and give me your Visa #, I will help you work through those feelings, okay? <P>Sooo… how many degrees do you have, Mr. Philosopher Scientist? I have to tell you something funny. I can totally see you as a philosopher scientist—disproving Bohm’s quantum theory of locality, for example—but you’d probably enjoy philosophizing a whole lot more from your living room than from a stodgy old college professorship! Yet, just sitting around at home thinking up great thoughts doesn’t exactly pay the bills, does it? Wouldn’t it be fun, though, to be independently wealthy enough to sit around all day and think about philosophies of life and time? I wonder what my mind could come up with if I gave it free rein to think freely and creatively without interruption. <P>Have you ever had an interest in psychotherapy before? I mean, has this been a lifelong interest, or do you just think you’d be good at listening to and giving people help with their psychoses, or is it just another interesting degree because the study of the human mind is so challenging? BTW, I’m not trying to dissuade you or anything here—just thought it would make an interesting topic. Part of me is interested in knowing if you are considering psychotherapy for the academia of it, or because you want to help people, or what ?<P><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B> No, my nickname was not "Spock". It was "Computer". It's still the only real nickname I've ever had (unless you count "Gnome" OR "GDP") Which may say as much about me as the nickname itself... <BR>For your nickname, as unoriginal as it may seem, based on your clue I myself can't think of a better guess than "Spock". </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>You have never had a true and proper nickname!!! OMG I shall have to correct that right now. From now on, your nickname shall be Rodin, and I think the reason is rather obvious. Do you like it? Haha!! If you have never had a real nickname, how did you come up with the screen name Gnome de Plume? I know it a play on words and all that, but are you a Gnome? A mean, nasty, little shorty of the pen? Or were you just feeling silly that day? <P>No, my nickname was not "Spock" but oddly enough that is not that far off. It was Spike. Do I in any way seem like a Spike to you? I have no idea how I got that nickname, but it stuck like glue, and to this day, I still have old friends that refer to me as Spike. Okay—part of it is that I am the girl that every guy used to love to have for a friend: I know about and enjoy football, I know how to speak "guy" and I know the "girl rules" so I can translate, I like to play baseball (I was catcher all the way through college) and I don’t care if it breaks a nail or messes my hair, and I liked the TV show M*A*S*H and the Three Stooges. See? I’m a great "buddy", so they gave me a "buddy" name. Too bad, I was never the one they chased after, though. <P><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B> Whatever happens, CJ, I can't believe that your husband will decide that you are not worth the effort. As painful as it may be to admit, it is possible that your husband will decide he doesn't want to deal with you and your marriage. But if he makes that decision, it will be because he doesn't believe that he is worth the effort. <P>I am tempted to say that the possibility of my wife never "reconciling" with me is my second greatest fear, but I'm not sure that would be true. It is probably the second most painful prospect for me to face, because I hate the idea of someone I love so much spending the rest of her days running from herself. But living the rest of my life alone does not really frighten me. If that's what happens, there are things I want very much that I will miss out on. But there are other things I will not miss out on, and the important thing for me is to know that I will be able to look back on my life without regret. I would rather risk everything for the right cause than live my life knowing that I didn't give faith and love a chance. </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I could not agree with you more. You know, I recognize the idea that my H may not believe that HE is worth the effort, but at least he has the added "comfort" (if you will) of having someone around who is constantly saying and demonstrating that he IS worth the effort—namely me! When his spirits flag or his self-worth feels low, hopefully I’m around to help build him up and let him know that he is worthy. I really grow weary, though, and do sometimes wish that someone was around me that thought I was Da Bohm—oops! I mean Da Bomb! <P>You know, Rodin, I am not afraid of being alone or living the rest of my life alone. In fact, I find being alone to be sort of comforting and easy, and I like it very much. I miss the companionship and connection of being in an intimate relationship, but I have lots of local friends and co-workers that I enjoy, and I have my children, so there are plenty of people with whom I can "connect". And I very, VERY much enjoy the ability to live a quieter, slower, less-frenzied life (mostly because I turn off the TV—haha)—and find joy and pleasure in the things I like, such as art museums and concerts and books. BUT, and it is a huge BUT, I totally agree with you: I would rather risk everything for the right cause than live my life knowing that I didn't give faith and love a chance. Man, I have lived my life these past two years based on that sentence. <P>...And with that Scarlett raises her fist and says, "Tomorrow will be another day". Oh, hi! Are you done? I was just finishing this story about a southern belle who goes through the Civil War. I'm thinking of calling it, "Taken by the War" or "The Wind Took It"--something like that. What do you think? <P>Well, that's all the news that's fit to print. <P>CJ<P>------------------<BR>Judge your success by what you had to give up in order to get it.<p>[This message has been edited by FaithfulWife (edited August 12, 2001).]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by FaithfulWife:<BR><B>Okay, you are right. Thank you for the gentle chastisement...In reality of course you are right, I don’t need to translate everything into Thinker for you to understand. I was just trying to give you an example out of your own life, but in a way that was also the tiniest little bit insulting, wasn’t it? Sorry. In case you can’t tell, it was entirely unintentional; nonetheless, I apologize if it bugged you and humbly request your forgiveness. There—all better, I hope.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Um, actually, CJ, I didn't feel insulted and I didn't mean to "chastise" you. I was just trying to streamline communication. To "tune" it, as it were. So, no forgiveness is necessary, and please accept my own apologies for my clumsily making it seem as if that might be the case.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>So, is there a pidgin Feeler dictionary? Is my photo in there? I’m still trying to figure out why the flying rats of New York City speak Feeler, but oh well, Gnome, I believe you. I would have pictured that they would speak "Sopranos" not Feeler, but what do I know.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>More than I, apparently, since I didn't get the "Sopranos" allusion (possibly because I do not have cable TV?). CJ, I don't know whether your photo is in the dictionary or not. Certainly, the dictionary is <I>mostly</I> pictures, but I don't know how I would recognize your picture if I saw it.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>Also, I have to admit that I never knew that my empathy leaked through the phosphors from the distributed virtual denizens. Is THAT what made the mess at your place? Do you need some help cleaning up?</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>No, no, the containment pool surrounding my computer is (thus far) adequate to the task. My mess is of another source entirely, and I think I will need to handle it myself.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>I know it’s a little intrusive, but who is (are) your current guest(s)? Are you going to have to throw them out by the scruff of their collar (so to speak)?</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>They neglected to provide their names and serial numbers and have thus far resisted further detection. Since my house is fairly big, I am reluctant to mine the entire edifice with intrusion control devices, and so I shall probably just relocate a smaller number of mobile units from region to region until contact is made.<BR>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by FaithfulWife:<BR><B>So, my quick question to you is this: have I been expressing gratitude to YOU in a way that is more in line with my personality type? If so, what would be more in line with YOUR personality type? Is there any particular way that you personally like to have gratitude expressed?</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I've never really thought about that question before. I'm not really very moved or motivated by the receipt of gratitude, I think. What I choose to do, I would do whether I received thanks for it or not, and so gratitude is nice, but superfluous. Perhaps an odd way of looking at it, but there it is...<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>Are you saying that expressing gratitude in an acceptable way—up to standard, if you will—is similar to following the social rules of acknowledging a stranger as you pass them? In simpler terms, are these just "rules of behavior" that you know are what people expect of you, but that you don’t really do naturally? If so . . . gee, don’t you get awfully tired trying to figure out which rule applies, and when, and to what extent? There is such a myriad of overlapping social rules, that I would think it would be almost impossible to "get it right" just by evaluating which rule applies!</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Yes, that's pretty much what I'm saying; and yes, I suspect I often get my social behavior wrong (hopefully not too egregiously); and yes, it's tiring, which is perhaps part of why I am the textbook definition of an introvert, losing rather than gaining energy from social interaction. As for it being almost impossible to get it right, well, no one ever said life was easy. Or rather, if anyone ever <I>did</I> say that, then they were...ahem...wrong.<P>I like to think that the people who don't know me see me as "reserved", while the people who <I>do</I> know me (and with whom I let my guard down) make allowances for my eccentricities. Nevertheless, even when trying to be on my best behavior, I occasionally embarrassed my wife in social situations.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>First, just so you know, I have learned to trust my intuition for the most part (except of course where it applies to my love life)!! I have no idea how it works or why, and at times I have tried to sit and figure it out, but there is always some little piece I can’t lay my finger on that seems to be instinct. Anyway, do you find this paralysis to be an issue in yourself? The reason I ask is that you are both Intuitive and Thinking, and I wonder if that combination grinds you to a halt sometimes. And if you KNOW that paralysis can be a problem because you’re thinking about what you’re NOT doing, then can you stop the paralysis ahead of time?</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Paralysis has historically been a <I>huge</I> issue for me, and I have not come up with any consistent solution.<P>One thing I learned from watching my wife's intuition at work: I don't think she was <I>ever</I> completely wrong. Her <I>interpretation</I> was often wrong, especially when she got her insights tangled up with her own personal issues, but I learned to have a great deal of respect for her intuition. Where I once asked myself "is she right?", I learned to ask "<I>how</I> is she right?" In this regard, I thought we made a very good team. My wife would point out something that I would <I>never</I> have noticed (e.g. how someone reacted in a particular situation), and I would analyze it and come up with a credible explanation, which allowed us to address the situation intelligently.<P>My respect for my wife's intuition is part of the reason I was so shocked by the allegations she made against me. It was just inconceivable to me that she could be <I>so wrong</I> about things like that (my feelings, my attitudes, my motivations, etc.). Of course, I imagine it "helped" that she had cut off all contact with me. Floating inputs can really play havoc with a system...<BR>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by FaithfulWife:<BR><B>Sooo… how many degrees do you have, Mr. Philosopher Scientist?</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Just three, and none of them a doctorate.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>I have to tell you something funny. I can totally see you as a philosopher scientist—disproving Bohm’s quantum theory of locality, for example—but you’d probably enjoy philosophizing a whole lot more from your living room than from a stodgy old college professorship! Yet, just sitting around at home thinking up great thoughts doesn’t exactly pay the bills, does it? Wouldn’t it be fun, though, to be independently wealthy enough to sit around all day and think about philosophies of life and time? I wonder what my mind could come up with if I gave it free rein to think freely and creatively without interruption.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I think I would find it frustrating to keep all of my thoughts to myself. What I <I>really</I> want to do is write. But without the education and credentials to be taken seriously, I am not inclined to try to publish anything serious.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>Have you ever had an interest in psychotherapy before? I mean, has this been a lifelong interest, or do you just think you’d be good at listening to and giving people help with their psychoses, or is it just another interesting degree because the study of the human mind is so challenging? BTW, I’m not trying to dissuade you or anything here—just thought it would make an interesting topic. Part of me is interested in knowing if you are considering psychotherapy for the academia of it, or because you want to help people, or what?</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I have long been interested in psychology at an academic level. Learning and cognition, that sort of thing. The idea of considering psychotherapy as a career is a new one, precipitated by a number of factors.<P>First, my experience with depression, in particular the way I finally overcame it, and even more so my experience with trying to understand what had happened to my wife, has caused me to learn about a profession that I had never really thought about before. It's kind of like my interest in dance. As I have said before, I love going to dance concerts. But I never went to one until I was in graduate school. It's not that I didn't think I would like going to a dance concert before then. It just never <I>occurred</I> to me to consider doing so. I knew vaguely that there was such a thing as dance, but it had never intersected with my world. In the same way, I knew that psychotherapy existed, but I just never thought about them and what they really did. Until about two years ago, my personal experiences with counseling were pretty superficial, aimed more at developing life skills (e.g. communication) than at trying to see within. Subsequent events have forced me to learn about psychotherapy for my own sanity's sake, and I have found the field intriguing.<P>I have long been concerned about my long-term prospects in my current computer-related field. It is not a field that particularly values experience, and the older you get the tougher it can be to find a job. Furthermore, I have no interest in technical management, and so my current position is something of a dead end. The idea of shifting to a field that <I>does</I> value experience (and wisdom) is appealing, especially if it offers potential flexibility in opportunities for research, writing, teaching, <I>and</I> helping people, all of which I like to do. And instead of retiring, I would probably just be able to ease off as my energy level demanded.<P>And then, there was that comment from my psychotherapist. I don't remember his exact words, but at my last appointment, he told me that it was a pity I liked what I was doing now, because I would be good at his job...<BR>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by FaithfulWife:<BR><B>You have never had a true and proper nickname!!! OMG I shall have to correct that right now. From now on, your nickname shall be Rodin, and I think the reason is rather obvious. Do you like it?</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>CJ, I don't quite know how to say this, but I feel honored and flattered more than you might expect. Yes, the reason you may have picked that nickname is obvious, but you might be surprised at <I>why</I> I am so moved. Never in a hundred years would that nickname have occurred to me, but it is hard for me to imagine a nickname I would find more meaningful.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>If you have never had a real nickname, how did you come up with the screen name Gnome de Plume? I know it a play on words and all that, but are you a Gnome? A mean, nasty, little shorty of the pen? Or were you just feeling silly that day?</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Oh dear. I didn't realize that gnomes had a reputation for being mean and nasty. The lawn gnomes I occasionally see around have never seemed all that malevolent.<P>The name itself derives solely from a literal-mindedness that perhaps betrays lack of imagination as much as it does cleverness. I was asked to input a pen name, as it were, and so I did. The image evoked for me is that of a short, stout, rough-featured and bearded scribe hunched over a drafting table, pen in hand, laboring at an illuminated manuscript. And while I prefer to leave assessments of my stature, physique, and physiognomy to others, it <I>is</I> true that I had a beard of sorts at the time I picked the name.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>No, my nickname was not "Spock" but oddly enough that is not that far off. It was Spike. Do I in any way seem like a Spike to you? I have no idea how I got that nickname, but it stuck like glue, and to this day, I still have old friends that refer to me as Spike.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Well, I gotta admit, when you predicted that I would laugh for twenty minutes I was skeptical. Although I laugh readily enough in conversation, it is very rare for me to laugh in response to the written word. (I don't know why that is.) But when I read those words "It was Spike" I reckon I was still chuckling twenty seconds later. Not quite a record, but pretty close.<P>No, you don't really strike me as a "Spike", but incongruity can convey signficance in and of itself. So, do <I>you</I> like your nickname?<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>I’m a great "buddy", so they gave me a "buddy" name. Too bad, I was never the one they chased after, though.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>And thus you were spared an awful lot of distress. What you are experiencing now should be plenty for one lifetime.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>I am not afraid of being alone or living the rest of my life alone. In fact, I find being alone to be sort of comforting and easy, and I like it very much. I miss the companionship and connection of being in an intimate relationship, but I have lots of local friends and co-workers that I enjoy, and I have my children, so there are plenty of people with whom I can "connect". And I very, VERY much enjoy the ability to live a quieter, slower, less-frenzied life (mostly because I turn off the TV—haha)—and find joy and pleasure in the things I like, such as art museums and concerts and books. BUT, and it is a huge BUT, I totally agree with you: I would rather risk everything for the right cause than live my life knowing that I didn't give faith and love a chance. Man, I have lived my life these past two years based on that sentence.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Yes, I could have said all of this except for the bit about the children (and I would have said it in a more stilted way).<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>...And with that Scarlett raises her fist and says, "Tomorrow will be another day". Oh, hi! Are you done? I was just finishing this story about a southern belle who goes through the Civil War. I'm thinking of calling it, "Taken by the War" or "The Wind Took It"--something like that. What do you think? </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>How about "Wafted Away on a Zephyr"?<BR>

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B> Um, actually, CJ, I didn't feel insulted and I didn't mean to "chastise" you. I was just trying to streamline communication. To "tune" it, as it were. So, no forgiveness is necessary, and please accept my own apologies for my clumsily making it seem as if that<BR>might be the case.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Boy, apparently my sense of humor is not nearly as razor sharp as I thought is was. Didn't you see the references to sorority initiations? Did you get the fraternity board and have to say, "Thank you sir, may I have another?" Geez, Rodin, I was just thanking you for wapping me with the virtual board. Come on! Laugh. You slapped my wrist (heehee) and I said, "Thank you, may I have another". Still lost? I was joking, kidding, joshing, teasing and being mischievious! <P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B> More than I, apparently, since I didn't get the "Sopranos" allusion (possibly because I do not have cable TV?). CJ, I don't know whether your photo is in the dictionary or not. Certainly, the dictionary is mostly pictures, but I don't know how I would recognize your<BR>picture if I saw it. </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>You are in Mr. Literal mode, aren't you? Sorry, I didn't realize that. Okay, "the Sopranos" is an HBO show about a Mafia family who lives in NYC. I figured that since there are a lot of "pigeons" live in NYC, that pidgin Feeler would have a New York accent. Gee. These jokes aren't all that funny at all when I have to explain them. BTW, I do not have cable TV either (I think I'm the only person in the state of Colorado).<P>Regarding my picture being in the dictionary, touche! Point to Mr. Literal. However, I was making more of a social commentary on the fact that I am the pure definition of a Feeler, so rather than explain it, they would just put my photo in there. <P>Rodin, are you okay? Don't take this wrong, but usually you are sharp as a tack and get these allusions and hints right away, so it's out of character for you not to get these little jokes. Okay, I take full responsibility for them being rather bad jokes, but it's not like you to not get these and at least guffaw and roll your eyes. Let me guess. There's something else on your mind, and it's taking up a large portion of your thoughts. Right? Rather than these little jokes and witticisms, this time would it be more helpful to discuss what's on your mind?<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B> No, no, the containment pool surrounding my computer is (thus far) adequate to the task. My mess is of another source entirely, and I think I will need to handle it myself.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>OMG Are you saying that you have a MOTE for your PC? Haha!!! ROFLMAO. Just visualizing the PC in "the great place of honor" is tickling me–but a MOTE!! I love it! When the CD pops out, is that the drawbridge? <P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B> They neglected to provide their names and serial numbers and have thus far resisted further detection. Since my house is fairly big, I am reluctant to mine the entire edifice with intrusion control devices, and so I shall probably just relocate a smaller number of mobile units from region to region until contact is made.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Oh dear! THOSE visitors! Drats (wicked laugh). I find that peanut butter has an adequate scent to waft throughout the edifice to entice the visitors into being detected. Just by chance, is your house near an open field? Our house was next to an open field which was next to a garden of lilies, and so we had visitors once a year every year; however, it was usually as the fall season arrived in Colorado and the nights were getting a little colder. Hey, you can't blame them for trying for a warmer spot, but we indicated to them that they were not welcome and we had no further visitors for the rest of the winter.<P>------------------<BR>Judge your success by what you had to give up in order to get it.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B> I've never really thought about that question before. I'm not really very moved or motivated by the receipt of gratitude, I think. What I choose to do, I would do whether I received thanks for it or not, and so gratitude is nice, but superfluous. Perhaps an odd way of looking at it, but there it is... </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>That's not odd at all. You choose what you do because of personal gratification, not in search of external gratification. The external stuff is whip cream, when compared to the substance of feeling within yourself that you choose something that makes you happy. Okay–so then I propose an agreement. I will express gratitude when I feel like expressing it (because I like it), and I will understand and accept that you are not very moved by the receipt of gratitude. In response, you will say, "Your welcome." The end.<P>This does raise an interesting question though. If you are not really very moved by or motivated by gratitude, what does motivate you? <P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B> Yes, that's pretty much what I'm saying; and yes, I suspect I often get my social behavior wrong (hopefully not too egregiously); and yes, it's tiring, which is perhaps part of why I am the textbook definition of an introvert, losing rather than gaining energy from social interaction. As for it being almost impossible to get it right, well, no one ever said life was easy. Or rather, if anyone ever did say that, then they were...ahem...wrong.<P>I like to think that the people who don't know me see me as "reserved", while the people who do know me (and with whom I let my guard down) make allowances for my eccentricities. Nevertheless, even when trying to be on my best behavior, I occasionally embarrassed my wife in social situations. </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I know what you mean. My daughter is a social butterfly, and she can always do and say the right thing at the right time–she's seen with the right people and everyone loves her, and yet she is completely herself all the time. How does she do that? <P>Personally, I am lucky. Since connecting to people is very important to me (INFP, remember?), I have learned how to use my feelers to reach out and figure what is right when, but it drains me. After a big party (such as a dinner party in which we invite over all of our friends for a pool party), I feel like collapsing and just sitting quietly to regroup and recharge my battery. I feel as if I've been performing for hours, but it all comes off looking pretty natural. The main difference between us, though, is a rather big one, and that is that I FEEL what is right in a certain situation, and you have to THINK of which rule would apply and which would override, etc. Generally speaking, do you think that you are come off looking uncomfortable? <P>Also, I noticed that twice in those two short paragraphs you mentioned that you "got your social behavior wrong" and "embarrassed your wife in social situations." This is a little bit of a nerve for you, isn't it? And to add insult to injury, even when you were trying really hard to be good and do the right thing, you were cut down and spoken to harshly. We women can be very sharp, cold and forbidding in our speech sometimes, and I don't think we quite realize how much our words can harm a guy. You'all (as a gender) seem so impervious to pain, that sometimes it seems like nothing gets to you. What can I say? Nothing really, because I wasn't the one who spoke like that to you, but I can say, at least, that I do understand. How's that?<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B> Paralysis has historically been a huge issue for me, and I have not come up with any consistent solution. </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Can you catch yourself before you go into "paralysis" or do you recognize it after it has occurred for a while? What solutions have you tried that have resulted in less than the desired affect? I'm not trying to be nosy or anything, but how can a person stop themself from thinking about what they're NOT doing? That's like a paradox!<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B> One thing I learned from watching my wife's intuition at work: I don't think she was ever completely wrong. Her interpretation was often wrong, especially when she got her insights tangled up with her own personal issues, but I learned to have a great deal of respect for her intuition. Where I once asked myself "is she right?", I learned to ask "how is she right?" In this regard, I thought we made a very good team. My wife would point out something that I would never have noticed (e.g. how someone reacted in a particular situation), and I would analyze it and come up with a credible explanation, which allowed us to address the situation intelligently. </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>WARNING!! JOKE ALERT!! KIDDING IMMEDIATELY TO FOLLOW! Boy, I sure wish my H realized I was never completely wrong. Haha I have been waiting about ten years to say that–heehee. Okay, I realize that you are speaking primarily on the intuitive level here, but it was just so fun and such a huge temptation, I couldn't resist. I love to play.<P>Okay, I'm a little more serious now. Since I am on the other end of this thing, I understand exactly what you mean about how the interpretation can be thrown off kilter by the personal issues, but I have learned that if I can just take the raw insight on it's own merits and not tangle it up in my personal problems, then the intuition itself is rarely off by much. I LOVE the way you guys worked as a team to analyze situations. That is SO COOL! I know there have been many times for me when I have noticed little nuances that are lost on my H, and he is stunned when I say something, "How did you know that?" Sometimes, I can't even put my finger on how I know, because it's not a conscious reception of data, and then I have to sit and think about how did I know that? But I think the way you two worked together, each one using their strengths, was awesome. <P><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B> My respect for my wife's intuition is part of the reason I was so shocked by the allegations she made against me. It was just inconceivable to me that she could be so<BR>wrong about things like that (my feelings, my attitudes, my motivations, etc.). Of course, I imagine it "helped" that she had cut off all contact with me. Floating inputs can<BR>really play havoc with a system... </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Rodin, let me share something with you that I am struggling to learn myself. Nothing others do is because of you. What others say and do is a reflection of their own reality and their own dreams. I doubt very much if your wife's allegations had ANYTHING to do with you, but rather they were a reflection of her reality. In fact, as a "survivor" myself, my suspicion is that there was something in her life that was causing her to feel very unsafe, and so she misinterpreted your actions as additional acts that "made" her to feel unsafe. <P>You know, you are a lucky dude, because I have had a taste of both sides of this issue. But speaking from what might be your wife's point of view, I know there have been times in my life that I have felt so hurt and scared and harmed and unsafe that when my H would do something relatively harmless, my radar was up so high that EVERYTHING felt scary. The best way to calm a situation like that is, in fact, to back off and provide a calm, quiet, safe environment. I know you weren't the one who was initiating the "unsafe environment", but I bet you unwittingly contributed to it by being insistent or obstinate or kind of bold in your behavior. <P>I am fairly confident that you did not intend to communicate any kind of "danger", and yet because she was in the heightened state, she perceived it that way. Once again, that is a projection of HER reality, not a reflection of YOU. And sometimes the feelers get so ultra sensitive to perceived "danger" that it can happen that the feelings, attitudes, and motivations that you mean to be assertive come across as unsafe. <BR><P>------------------<BR>Judge your success by what you had to give up in order to get it.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B> Just three, and none of them a doctorate. </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Haha! Oh boy, you really ARE a Thinker, aren't you? I bet you know what my next question is going to be: what are your three degrees in? More interestingly, did you get these degrees because you enjoyed studying the subject (for academic pleasure) or did you get them to apply in the daily grind of your job? Are these degrees something that you can use everyday, or did you just graduate because it was a tickle to learn?<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B> I think I would find it frustrating to keep all of my thoughts to myself. What I really want to do is write. But without the education and credentials to be taken seriously, I am not inclined to try to publish anything serious. </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Oy vey! Did I mention that I majored in English in college? That's why I write nine page replies to everyone–I never met a thought that I didn't write down! When I was recruited out of college, I worked at a financial counseling firm editing the documents that the MBA's wrote. Now THAT was a task, because they wrote like MBA's--no offense, let's just say their expertise was clearly in offering financial advice. Anyway that was great fun, and I actually learned a lot about finances and accounting and investing by reading those papers. Yes, I edited them for grammar, spelling and accuracy, but I also read the papers, and that is part of how I got interested in accounting. That and accounting is so clean and precise that it's orderly. <P>I find it interesting that you would find it frustrating to keep all of your thoughts to yourself. Why is that? I would find it lovely to have my thoughts all to myself–I just write them down so I can go over them again some other day–or to help get started on some new thoughts today. Since you are an Introverted Thinker, I would have thought that you would WANT to keep your thoughts to yourself, and so this is an interesting aberration from expectations. Have you ever tried to write before? Anything? Hmm... <P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B> I have long been interested in psychology at an academic level. Learning and cognition, that sort of thing. The idea of considering psychotherapy as a career is a new one, precipitated by a number of factors.<P>First, my experience with depression, in particular the way I finally overcame it, and even more so my experience with trying to understand what had happened to my wife, has<BR>caused me to learn about a profession that I had never really thought about before. It's<BR>kind of like my interest in dance. As I have said before, I love going to dance concerts.<BR>But I never went to one until I was in graduate school. It's not that I didn't think I would like going to a dance concert before then. It just never occurred to me to consider doing so. I knew vaguely that there was such a thing as dance, but it had never intersected with my world. In the same way, I knew that psychotherapy existed, but I just never thought about them and what they really did. Until about two years ago, my personal<BR>experiences with counseling were pretty superficial, aimed more at developing life skills (e.g. communication) than at trying to see within. Subsequent events have forced me to learn about psychotherapy for my own sanity's sake, and I have found the field<BR>intriguing. </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Hmm, how interesting. May I ask you a little bit about your experience with depression? When my H left me, I was naturally quite distraught and depressed–on a number of levels. Since I am kind of a natural type of person, I chose to take St. John's Wort at a pretty low dosage, mainly to help with the negative self talk, "downer" stuff in my own head. I found that when I did not take the St. John's Wort, I began to have more negative thoughts and generally felt down, whereas when I did take it, I felt on an even-keel. However, what helped me far more than any medication could have EVER done is to face myself, face my fears and THINK. <P>I'm glad to hear that you had a competent therapist, who was able to help you look within. All too often, I have heard of therapists who did a poor job and have subsequently harmed their clients and turned them off, forever, to the benefit of psychotherapy or counseling. You do have two big benefits that probably really would make you an excellent therapist: you are able to analyze very accurately, and you do not FEEL what the other person feels (the client) so you would not get entangled emotionally. Boy that sounds wrong! But what I mean is that I think you could very successfully keep your clients emotions and issues separate from yourself, which would be quite a benefit in this field.<P><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B> I have long been concerned about my long-term prospects in my current<BR>computer-related field. It is not a field that particularly values experience, and the older you get the tougher it can be to find a job. Furthermore, I have no interest in technical management, and so my current position is something of a dead end. The idea of shifting to a field that does value experience (and wisdom) is appealing, especially if it offers potential flexibility in opportunities for research, writing, teaching, and helping people, all<BR>of which I like to do. And instead of retiring, I would probably just be able to ease off as my energy level demanded.<P>And then, there was that comment from my psychotherapist. I don't remember his exact<BR>words, but at my last appointment, he told me that it was a pity I liked what I was doing<BR>now, because I would be good at his job... </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Oh–good point. In fact, the older you grow in the computer field, the more "out-of-touch" you are with the latest innovations–or at least, in the eyes of the twenty-year-olds! I think that generally, as a society, we do not value age, wisdom and experience, but that is particularly evident in the computer field. Of course, the huge benefit is that you can make a buck or two before your flame extinguishes–haha! If you do not want to become a manager, is it because you would have to manage the employees "under you"? If so, then what makes you think that you would be good at managing clients? Last but not least, I love the way you look at the field of psychotherapy: flexible enough to offer the opportunity to research, to write, to teach, or to help people. The funny question is, I think it would help YOU a heck of a lot more than anyone else! Hmm...you have a rather intriguing possibility here. <P><BR>------------------<BR>Judge your success by what you had to give up in order to get it.<p>[This message has been edited by FaithfulWife (edited August 16, 2001).]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B> CJ, I don't quite know how to say this, but I feel honored and flattered more than you<BR>might expect. Yes, the reason you may have picked that nickname is obvious, but you<BR>might be surprised at why I am so moved. Never in a hundred years would that nickname<BR>have occurred to me, but it is hard for me to imagine a nickname I would find more<BR>meaningful. </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Wow, YAY! Can I share something unusual with you? You are not moved at all by gratitude, but you are moved by a nickname. What a weird puzzle you are! But, I am very happy that you feel honored and flattered–and yes, I am indeed surprised. Well, the funny thing is, that nickname is exactly you, isn't it? <P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B> Oh dear. I didn't realize that gnomes had a reputation for being mean and nasty. The<BR>lawn gnomes I occasionally see around have never seemed all that malevolent.<P>The name itself derives solely from a literal-mindedness that perhaps betrays lack of<BR>imagination as much as it does cleverness. I was asked to input a pen name, as it were,<BR>and so I did. The image evoked for me is that of a short, stout, rough-featured and<BR>bearded scribe hunched over a drafting table, pen in hand, laboring at an illuminated<BR>manuscript. And while I prefer to leave assessments of my stature, physique, and<BR>physiognomy to others, it is true that I had a beard of sorts at the time I picked the<BR>name. </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Well, my fairytale lore is not up to par as much as I would like, but I thought gnomes were close cousins of the trolls, who are mean and nasty. Now, the lawn gnomes I think look more like dwarfs, but what do I know, right? <P>Now, Rodin, I just have to chastise you a little bit–very gently of course. Several times I have noticed, in our correspondences here, that you make little knocks against yourself, and I am asking you rather insistently to stop that. STOP THAT! Seriously, I have noticed a couple of times that you have put yourself down, and I would like it very much if you would give that a little thought. Now, it's one thing to be honest and admit what you did and how you contributed to the demise of your marriage and stuff like that–that is just being honest and open with yourself and others, so that you can evaluate yourself . Cool. However, there have been a couple times that you have blamed yourself or made little remarks that are like little digs against yourself. I know that you did indeed help set this awful ball in motion, but you are a human being too, you didn't do it intentionally, and you deserve to forgive yourself. <P>There were (and kind of still are) TWO at this dance, and no one told either one of you how to dance, so you guys tripped a lot and stepped on toes. Sometimes you were each dancing different dances and didn't know it! Plus, she had some steps about which you did not know–there is no way you could improvise a way to cover those unknown steps. What I'm trying to say is that because of these periodic "leaks" of self-deprecation, I hear that you take on a lot of this load on yourself. And while it's true that you may have embarrassed your wife, or been too thoughtful and quiet, or didn't know how to comfort her, or all those other things, you did love her, you did the best that you could with the knowledge that you had at the time, you were true and faithful to her, and you love her to this day! So, Rodin, lighten up on yourself, forgive yourself, and stop putting yourself down. From this day forward, I want to hear at least one instance of something you do exceedingly well or something of which you are really proud or something that generally is building you UP, not bringing you down. Okay? Just consider it.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B> Well, I gotta admit, when you predicted that I would laugh for twenty minutes I was<BR>skeptical. Although I laugh readily enough in conversation, it is very rare for me to laugh<BR>in response to the written word. (I don't know why that is.) But when I read those words<BR>"It was Spike" I reckon I was still chuckling twenty seconds later. Not quite a record, but<BR>pretty close.<P>No, you don't really strike me as a "Spike", but incongruity can convey signficance in and<BR>of itself. So, do you like your nickname? </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Haha! Heehee! Teeheesnickerchuckle! YAY!! I will settle for twenty seconds of chuckling, because it is funny, isn't it? So you ask if I like my nickname. I don't know–I've had it for so long now that it is just my name. I guess in a way it is a fun split from my soft and gentle personality, because Spike is a softball-playing kind of chick who tried chewing tobacco once! My nickname might make more sense if I had a tall, thin, spikey looking body type, but even physically I am rather "non-spikey." I'm a soft, gentle, empathic, smooshy fluff ball inside and out (haha). It's rather like calling a porcupine "Fluffy", isn't it? <P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B> And thus you were spared an awful lot of distress. What you are experiencing now should be plenty for one lifetime. </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Amen, brother, and pass the bible! I'm about to testify! Some days, it feels like it's a little more than is tolerable for one life.<P>The funny thing is that all through my youth, high school, college and young adulthood, I was always the girl next door that the guys thought of as "one of the guys". I lived the movie "Sandlot" and I was the catcher on our "team". We would play baseball all day long, on those long summer days, and then get an ice cream cone and listen to the Cubbies on the radio. At the time, I always wished that I would be "the girl with the red hair" that all the guys always drooled over, and instead I was the one who told them how to go impress her. Know what I mean? High school and college were the same thing. I played practical jokes on people (I know that this just shocks you, doesn't it?) and I listened to a hundred people tell me their love-life sob stories, but I was always Spike: the wide receiver on the touch football team, or Spike: the jokester, or Spike: the girl with the restored car. <P>Well hey, you know what though. I didn't realize this when I was a kid, but now that I'm old, I realize that those Spike experiences helped me to become the person I am today. Lots of my girlfriends went through life following the more traditional "female" roles of society, and they ended up married at 19yo, or with three kids and a drunken husband, or divorced three times because sex was too dirty. Now that I'm older, I realize that if I had been the girl with the red hair, I would have had my heart broken a hundred times, and I would have been a lot less polished of a diamond today! <P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B> Yes, I could have said all of this except for the bit about the children (and I would have said it in a more stilted way). </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>What can I say? That is the writer in me. I have an uncanny ability to pick just the right word, plus I'm humble about it too (devil horns protruding)! So, Rodin, did you ever have the privilege of having children? Do you or did you want to have children? As always, I don't mean to pry, but I'm always curious as to what you are thinking. <P>I myself find children to be a miracle here on earth–all at one time they are the greatest gift and the greatest pain (and you know where the pain is–gluteus!). Both of my children are currently taller than I am, and since I have to hopes of growing, I guess they always will be! But my children have taught me SOOOO much, especially since I never really did get a childhood. I think that's why I like to play so much now! <P>Well, this is getting silly. I just refuse to write anymore four-post replies! Can you believe this? I guess I like to talk AND write!<P><BR>CJ<P>------------------<BR>Judge your success by what you had to give up in order to get it.

I don't want to go to page two. <P>NOOOOOOOoooooooo!!!!<P><BR>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by FaithfulWife:<BR><B>Boy, apparently my sense of humor is not nearly as razor sharp as I thought is was. Didn't you see the references to sorority initiations? Did you get the fraternity board and have to say, "Thank you sir, may I have another?" Geez, Rodin, I was just thanking you for wapping me with the virtual board. Come on! Laugh. You slapped my wrist (heehee) and I said, "Thank you, may I have another". Still lost? I was joking, kidding, joshing, teasing and being mischievious!<P>You are in Mr. Literal mode, aren't you? Sorry, I didn't realize that. Okay, "the Sopranos" is an HBO show about a Mafia family who lives in NYC. I figured that since there are a lot of "pigeons" live in NYC, that pidgin Feeler would have a New York accent. Gee.<BR>These jokes aren't all that funny at all when I have to explain them. BTW, I do not have cable TV either (I think I'm the only person in the state of Colorado).<P>Regarding my picture being in the dictionary, touche! Point to Mr. Literal. However, I was making more of a social commentary on the fact that I am the pure definition of a Feeler, so rather than explain it, they would just put my photo in there.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Actually, CJ, except for the bit about the Sopranos, I understood all this. I'm afraid you have fallen victim to my own brand of off-beat humor, in which I deliberately misunderstand a joke in order to respond in a hyper-literal manner. That's my story, and I'm sticking to it. (One of the attractions of this form of "humor" is that it provides decent cover for those occasions when a joke really <I>does</I> go over my head.)<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>Rodin, are you okay? Don't take this wrong, but usually you are sharp as a tack and get these allusions and hints right away, so it's out of character for you not to get these little jokes. Okay, I take full responsibility for them being rather bad jokes, but it's not like you to not get these and at least guffaw and roll your eyes. Let me guess. There's something else on your mind, and it's taking up a large portion of your thoughts. Right? Rather than these little jokes and witticisms, this time would it be more helpful to discuss what's on your mind?</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I'm okay enough for my current circumstances. Just a bit busy, a bit preoccupied, and a bit less playful than usual. As another I'll-believe-it-when-I-see-it court date approaches, I am devoting an unpleasant amount of mental and emotional energy to the preparation of arguments and defenses that will in all likelihood never be allowed to be heard...<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>OMG Are you saying that you have a MOTE for your PC? Haha!!! ROFLMAO.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Uh...doesn't everyone? Water cooling is so much more effective than air cooling, you know. <P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>Just visualizing the PC in "the great place of honor" is tickling me–but a MOTE!! I love it! When the CD pops out, is that the drawbridge?</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>No, the drawbridge would be the keyboard drawer...<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>Oh dear! THOSE visitors! Drats (wicked laugh). I find that peanut butter has an adequate scent to waft throughout the edifice to entice the visitors into being detected. Just by chance, is your house near an open field?</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Part of my back yard bears some resemblance to an open field (albeit a small one), but really I live in a well-established suburb. I shall try the peanut butter.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>You choose what you do because of personal gratification, not in search of external gratification. The external stuff is whip cream, when compared to the substance of feeling within yourself that you choose something that makes you happy. Okay–so then I propose an agreement. I will express gratitude when I feel like expressing it (because I like it), and I will understand and accept that you are not very moved by the receipt of gratitude. In response, you will say, "Your welcome." The end.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Deal. <P>Well, my jeans are ready to come out of the dryer and I have to get up early tomorrow, so I shall have to continue my response later...<BR>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by FaithfulWife:<BR><B>This does raise an interesting question though. If you are not really very moved by or motivated by gratitude, what does motivate you?</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Well, it's tempting to say that love motivates me, and I believe that would be true, but mostly I suppose I am motivated by the desire to improve myself. I want to be a better person, I want to increase my knowledge, I want to increase my understanding, I want to increase my skills. If I do something well, I don't really care what anyone else thinks about it. If I think I can do better, I don't really care what anyone else thinks. Someone else's evaluation is likely to provide useful input (I welcome constructive criticism), but it doesn't really <I>motivate</I> me. That comes from within.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>Since connecting to people is very important to me (INFP, remember?), I have learned how to use my feelers to reach out and figure what is right when, but it drains me. After a big party (such as a dinner party in which we invite over all of our friends for a pool party), I feel like collapsing and just sitting quietly to regroup and recharge my battery. I feel as if I've been performing for hours, but it all comes off looking pretty natural. The main difference between us, though, is a rather big one, and that is that I FEEL what is right in a certain situation, and you have to THINK of which rule would apply and which would override, etc. Generally speaking, do you think that you are come off looking uncomfortable?</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I don't know. I can't <I>tell</I> how I come across. I don't have the <I>feelers</I> for that. Perhaps I come off as uncomfortable, perhaps I come off as aloof, perhaps I come off as arrogant. I just don't know.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>Also, I noticed that twice in those two short paragraphs you mentioned that you "got your social behavior wrong" and "embarrassed your wife in social situations." This is a little bit of a nerve for you, isn't it? And to add insult to injury, even when you were trying really hard to be good and do the right thing, you were cut down and spoken to harshly. We women can be very sharp, cold and forbidding in our speech sometimes, and I don't think we quite realize how much our words can harm a guy. You'all (as a gender) seem so impervious to pain, that sometimes it seems like nothing gets to you. What can I say? Nothing really, because I wasn't the one who spoke like that to you, but I can say, at least, that I do understand. How's that?</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Yeah, it's a bit of a nerve. I believe that (largely due to my wife's help) I improved over the years, and I really think that I <I>ought</I> to have gotten more credit for trying. But let's face it, my limitations legitimately <I>did</I> cause my wife irritation and disappointment, regardless of how hard I tried. I can't hold that against her, although I don't feel guilty about my failures either. My personal standards do not demand perfection: they merely demand a <I>striving</I> for perfection. And I <I>still</I> believe that my wife and I were very good for each other. I <I>still</I> believe that <I>nobody</I> could have made her a better husband. Most weaknesses are also strengths, and vice versa.<P>And, no doubt I came off just as "sharp, cold and forbidding" to my wife at times (however unintentionally) as she sometimes seemed to me. Remember McCoy's continual frustration with Spock?<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>Can you catch yourself before you go into "paralysis" or do you recognize it after it has occurred for a while? What solutions have you tried that have resulted in less than the desired affect? I'm not trying to be nosy or anything, but how can a person stop themself from thinking about what they're NOT doing? That's like a paradox!</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I can tell pretty much right away. The mere awareness doesn't usually seem to help. And telling myself to just do <I>something</I>, right or wrong, doesn't always work, since I am very cognizant of the fact that doing nothing <I>is</I> doing something. The most effective solution I've found is to back off, stop trying to estimate probabilities for different outcomes to the different options under consideration, stop trying to manufacture a new more satisfactory option when multiple previous attempts have failed, and determine a course of action based on principle. But this doesn't work real well when there are no clear principles to act on or (as is more likely) when conflicting principles seem to apply.<BR>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>WARNING!! JOKE ALERT!! KIDDING IMMEDIATELY TO FOLLOW! Boy, I sure wish my H realized I was never completely wrong...</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>How do you know he doesn't? You don't really think he would admit that to you, do you? <P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>Since I am on the other end of this thing, I understand exactly what you mean about how the interpretation can be thrown off kilter by the personal issues, but I have learned that if I can just take the raw insight on it's own merits and not tangle it up in my personal problems, then the intuition itself is rarely off by much. I LOVE the way you guys worked as a team to analyze situations. That is SO COOL! I know there have been many times for me when I have noticed little nuances that are lost on my H, and he is stunned when I say something, "How did you know that?" Sometimes, I can't even put my finger on how I know, because it's not a conscious reception of data, and then I have to sit and think about how did I know that? But I think the way you two worked together, each one using their strengths, was awesome.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Yeah, I thought it was really cool, too. And one of the neatest things about it was that (I thought) it really reinforced mutual respect.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>Rodin, let me share something with you that I am struggling to learn myself. Nothing others do is because of you. What others say and do is a reflection of their own reality and their own dreams. I doubt very much if your wife's allegations had ANYTHING to do with you, but rather they were a reflection of her reality. In fact, as a "survivor" myself, my suspicion is that there was something in her life that was causing her to feel very unsafe, and so she misinterpreted your actions as additional acts that "made" her to feel unsafe.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>One of the oddest "blessings" in this whole experience for me is that my wife's allegations are <I>so</I> bizarre that I was left no room for doubt about this. If her allegations had a little more basis in the reality of our marriage, I might still be left wondering. But as it is, there is absolutely no question in my mind that your suspicion is correct.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>You know, you are a lucky dude, because I have had a taste of both sides of this issue. But speaking from what might be your wife's point of view, I know there have been times in my life that I have felt so hurt and scared and harmed and unsafe that when my H would do something relatively harmless, my radar was up so high that EVERYTHING felt scary. The best way to calm a situation like that is, in fact, to back off and provide a calm, quiet, safe environment. I know you weren't the one who was initiating the "unsafe environment", but I bet you unwittingly contributed to it by being insistent or obstinate or kind of bold in your behavior.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>No bet. You'd win.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>I am fairly confident that you did not intend to communicate any kind of "danger", and yet because she was in the heightened state, she perceived it that way. Once again, that is a projection of HER reality, not a reflection of YOU. And sometimes the feelers get so ultra sensitive to perceived "danger" that it can happen that the feelings, attitudes, and motivations that you mean to be assertive come across as unsafe.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Right again. I regret some of my actions, because I could have chosen other actions that my wife probably would not have perceived as threatening. But I do not feel guilty, because I just didn't <I>understand</I>. I had no <I>basis</I> for understanding.<BR>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>Haha! Oh boy, you really ARE a Thinker, aren't you? I bet you know what my next question is going to be: what are your three degrees in? More interestingly, did you get these degrees because you enjoyed studying the subject (for academic pleasure) or did you get them to apply in the daily grind of your job? Are these degrees something that you can use everyday, or did you just graduate because it was a tickle to learn?</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Oh dear. I must admit that I'm reluctant to answer this question fully. I've already revealed so much about myself here that I estimate that anyone who knows me well and who might also happen to be reading this forum would be somewhere between 95% and 99% certain about who I am. If I give you my educational background (which is a little atypical), I'd guess that that number would jump to around 99.9%. I'm just not comfortable with that. However, I <I>will</I> say that I was interested in what I studied (although I found the traditional educational system frustrating), and that I do use what I studied.<P>I didn't graduate "because it was a tickle to learn". That would be a reason to <I>avoid</I> graduating. <P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>Oy vey! Did I mention that I majored in English in college?</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Not anywhere that I read. <I>I</I>, on the other hand, never took a college-level English course. <P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>When I was recruited out of college, I worked at a financial counseling firm editing the documents that the MBA's wrote. Now THAT was a task, because they wrote like MBA's--no offense, let's just say their expertise was clearly in offering financial advice. Anyway that was great fun, and I actually learned a lot about finances and accounting and investing by reading those papers. Yes, I edited them for grammar, spelling and accuracy, but I also read the papers, and that is part of how I got interested in accounting. That and accounting is so clean and precise that it's orderly.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>It's funny how our life experiences often send us in unanticipated directions. But...accounting is "clean and precise"!? Orderly, okay, I'll buy that, but much of accounting strikes me as having an arbitrary and contrived order. Hardly clean! And the precision is often illusory.<P>Um...no offense intended. <P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>I find it interesting that you would find it frustrating to keep all of your thoughts to yourself. Why is that? I would find it lovely to have my thoughts all to myself–I just write them down so I can go over them again some other day–or to help get started on some new thoughts today. Since you are an Introverted Thinker, I would have thought that you would WANT to keep your thoughts to yourself, and so this is an interesting aberration from expectations. Have you ever tried to write before? Anything? Hmm...</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I don't really know <I>why</I> I find it frustrating. Certainly, dialogue sharpens one's thinking, and the written form of it allows time for reflection. But I think there's more to it than that. Sometimes I feel like I have a "calling" of sorts to get people to <I>think</I>.<P>And then there's the whole "expression" thing. There are very few ways in which I feel like I am able to truly express myself. Writing is one of them (and here I am talking about fiction, not technical or essay material.)<P>It has been a long time since I have really tried to write anything other than journaling, correspondence (including online posts), and stuff for work. (Although every once in a while something just sort of comes out, albeit usually half-baked). But, yeah, I've done it before. Once upon a time, I even got published...<BR>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>Hmm, how interesting. May I ask you a little bit about your experience with depression? When my H left me, I was naturally quite distraught and depressed–on a number of levels. Since I am kind of a natural type of person, I chose to take St. John's Wort at a pretty low dosage, mainly to help with the negative self talk, "downer" stuff in my own head. I found that when I did not take the St. John's Wort, I began to have more negative thoughts and generally felt down, whereas when I did take it, I felt on an even-keel. However, what helped me far more than any medication could have EVER done is to face myself, face my fears and THINK.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I tried St. John's Wort for a few months, but I couldn't tell whether it helped or not. It was around the end of my struggle, and although I felt a little bit "smoothed out" while I was taking it, I guess I'll never know whether that was due to the St. John's Wort or to the concurrent excavation of my soul. My therapist offered to get me put on medication, but he approved of my decision not to go that route. (My wife, of course, used that decision against me, as evidence that I refused to get help for my problems.) I believed that my depression was primarily a situational response, and I was afraid that treating the symptom would make it more difficult to root out the cause.<P>And yes, facing myself, my illusions and fears, is what brought me out the other side. I really doubt that medication would have accelerated the process, although who's to say that it wouldn't have made me more (or less) comfortable in the meantime?<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>I'm glad to hear that you had a competent therapist, who was able to help you look within. All too often, I have heard of therapists who did a poor job and have subsequently harmed their clients and turned them off, forever, to the benefit of psychotherapy or counseling.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Yeah, I've heard some pretty nasty horror stories myself. My therapist told me that he thought I understood more about this psychology stuff than most counselors did. I told him I sure hoped he was wrong...<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>You do have two big benefits that probably really would make you an excellent therapist: you are able to analyze very accurately, and you do not FEEL what the other person feels (the client) so you would not get entangled emotionally. Boy that sounds wrong! But what I mean is that I think you could very successfully keep your clients emotions and issues separate from yourself, which would be quite a benefit in this field.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>That was pretty much my own assessment. It sounds sort of bad because it sounds like I wouldn't be <I>caring</I>, but I know that's not what either of us meant.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>Oh–good point. In fact, the older you grow in the computer field, the more "out-of-touch" you are with the latest innovations–or at least, in the eyes of the twenty-year-olds!</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Heh. It's not what the twenty-year-olds think that I'm concerned about. It's what the people who <I>hire</I> them think. <P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>I think that generally, as a society, we do not value age, wisdom and experience, but that is particularly evident in the computer field. Of course, the huge benefit is that you can make a buck or two before your flame extinguishes–haha! If you do not want to become a manager, is it because you would have to manage the employees "under you"?</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>No, when working on a project I don't really care whether I'm telling someone else what to do or whether I'm being told what to do. But I don't get any enjoyment out of project management and I don't like being involved in office politics.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>If so, then what makes you think that you would be good at managing clients? Last but not least, I love the way you look at the field of psychotherapy: flexible enough to offer the opportunity to research, to write, to teach, or to help people. The funny question is, I think it would help YOU a heck of a lot more than anyone else! Hmm...you have a rather intriguing possibility here.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I don't know whether I would be any good at managing clients. Obviously, more research is called for. But yeah, the possibility is intriguing. And regarding how much it would help <I>me</I> relative to anyone else, I'm a believer in win-win solutions. No prisoner's dilemmas for me, thank you! <BR>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>Wow, YAY! Can I share something unusual with you? You are not moved at all by gratitude, but you are moved by a nickname. What a weird puzzle you are! But, I am very happy that you feel honored and flattered–and yes, I am indeed surprised. Well, the funny thing is, that nickname is exactly you, isn't it?</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>A weird puzzle? Of course! That's why I have so much fun trying to figure myself out.<P>Yes, the nickname seems strikingly appropriate, but I'm curious as to why <I>you</I> think so.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>Well, my fairytale lore is not up to par as much as I would like, but I thought gnomes were close cousins of the trolls, who are mean and nasty. Now, the lawn gnomes I think look more like dwarfs, but what do I know, right?</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>You can't always <I>choose</I> your cousins, you know... <P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>Now, Rodin, I just have to chastise you a little bit–very gently of course. Several times I have noticed, in our correspondences here, that you make little knocks against yourself, and I am asking you rather insistently to stop that. STOP THAT! Seriously, I have noticed a couple of times that you have put yourself down, and I would like it very much if you would give that a little thought. Now, it's one thing to be honest and admit what you did and how you contributed to the demise of your marriage and stuff like that–that is just being honest and open with yourself and others, so that you can evaluate yourself . Cool. However, there have been a couple times that you have blamed yourself or made little remarks that are like little digs against yourself. I know that you did indeed help set this awful ball in motion, but you are a human being too, you didn't do it intentionally, and you deserve to forgive yourself.<P>There were (and kind of still are) TWO at this dance, and no one told either one of you how to dance, so you guys tripped a lot and stepped on toes. Sometimes you were each dancing different dances and didn't know it! Plus, she had some steps about which you did not know–there is no way you could improvise a way to cover those unknown steps. What I'm trying to say is that because of these periodic "leaks" of self-deprecation, I hear that you take on a lot of this load on yourself. And while it's true that you may have embarrassed your wife, or been too thoughtful and quiet, or didn't know how to comfort her, or all those other things, you did love her, you did the best that you could with the knowledge that you had at the time, you were true and faithful to her, and you love her to this day! So, Rodin, lighten up on yourself, forgive yourself, and stop putting yourself down. From this day forward, I want to hear at least one instance of something you do exceedingly well or something of which you are really proud or something that generally is building you UP, not bringing you down. Okay? Just consider it.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Thanks, CJ, I appreciate your concern, but as I said earlier, although I have regrets, I really don't feel guilty for my mistakes. There were plenty of things I could have handled better if I had <I>known</I> better; but I <I>didn't</I> know better, and I understand the difference in acuity between foresight and hindsight. Believe me, I do not spend much time kicking myself about the past. I spend far more time agonizing over the appropriate action to take <I>next</I>. To me, the identification of limitations and past mistakes is equivalent to the identification of new challenges. I need to find ways around my limitations, and I need to find ways to avoid repeating my mistakes. <P>You know what I'm proud of? I'm proud of how I handled my depression. Sure, it took me a while to work through it, and I'm not exactly proud of that, but I'm not particularly ashamed of it either. Because I <I>did</I> work through it, I am not ashamed to be human, and <I>everyone</I> has baggage they need to discard. No, I'm proud of the fact that to the best of my ability, I fulfilled my various responsibilities during that time. And while I may not have done as good a job as I would have if I <I>hadn't</I> been struggling with depression, I think I did a darned good job under the circumstances.<P>I am also proud of the way I have handled this whole divorce farce. Sure, I have been lucky in that my wife's actions have deprived me of a lot of opportunities to make mistakes, but there were still a lot of things I could have done wrong. And although not everyone agrees with the decisions I have made and the actions I have taken, <I>I</I> feel good about <I>myself</I>.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>So you ask if I like my nickname. I don't know–I've had it for so long now that it is just my name. I guess in a way it is a fun split from my soft and gentle personality, because Spike is a softball-playing kind of chick who tried chewing tobacco once! My nickname might make more sense if I had a tall, thin, spikey looking body type, but even physically I am rather "non-spikey." I'm a soft, gentle, empathic, smooshy fluff ball inside and out (haha). It's rather like calling a porcupine "Fluffy", isn't it? </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Yeah, I know what you mean about the name. It's not about associations, it's about identity. Oh, and actually, I like the idea of naming a porcupine "Fluffy". <P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>Well hey, you know what though. I didn't realize this when I was a kid, but now that I'm old, I realize that those Spike experiences helped me to become the person I am today. Lots of my girlfriends went through life following the more traditional "female" roles of society, and they ended up married at 19yo, or with three kids and a drunken husband, or divorced three times because sex was too dirty. Now that I'm older, I realize that if I had been the girl with the red hair, I would have had my heart broken a hundred times, and I would have been a lot less polished of a diamond today!</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Yeah!<P>Every once in a while, when I feel a touch of envy coming on, I think about what it would really mean if I could trade places/experiences/abilities/whatever with someone else. And I always conclude that I would rather be me. <P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>So, Rodin, did you ever have the privilege of having children? Do you or did you want to have children? As always, I don't mean to pry, but I'm always curious as to what you are thinking.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>My wife was adamantly opposed to the idea of pregnancy, and I never particularly wanted children myself. Great rewards, yes, but great responsibilities as well. Still, if we <I>had</I> ended up with children, I believe I would have been a good and dedicated father. I'm a pretty adaptable person, and just as I willingly devoted my life to my wife's welfare, I could easily see myself doing the same for my prospective children.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>Well, this is getting silly. I just refuse to write anymore four-post replies!</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Well, this should be interesting. Four-post replies may be ruled out, but there are lots of other numbers still in the running!<BR>