Bryan,<P>I hear you! Believe me I do! I too put my ex through university. When I wanted to go, he threw a fit. So....through the crud (while we were separated and when my dad was dying of cancer *arghhhh*) I went to school. BEST thing I ever did.<P>Like SA-girl was telling me under my thread...Don't be a victim. Sometimes I think it's easier to be that way instead of fighting your way out. But it's hard work when you've been hurt so bad.<P>It's so disheartening when you put so much into your marriage to end up divorced. I do know now...that no matter WHAT I did, he wouldn't have worked on it. I want to be with someone that believes in the values of marriage. I deserve that! And so do you!<P>Hang in there Bryan! You too...keep me posted on how you are doing. I'm new to this board, so a friendly face always helps!

Elan..<P>Thanks so much! I know that both of us will be fine because we have the good moral value system in place and it only gets better from here. I can't tell you how much people here on this board have helped me, they are all fantastic people! I hope you use this forum as much as possible! Its the best thing on the internet for self-help.<P>Keep in touch..<P>Take Care<P>Bryan <BR><P>------------------<BR>BJK

Elliott,<P>I am very disturbed by this post, and even more so by the fact that no one has picked up on the fact that it sounds so much like revisionist history.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>All those years, nothing was ever good enough and he always had something critical/negative to say, he was controlling and jealous. I just laughed it off and appeared<BR>happy on the outside, but on the inside it tore me apart emotionally, a little piece at a time. I was brainwashed into believing I could not make it on my own, no one would want a divorced woman w/2 teenage girls, I was nothing but a b___tch and complained all the time. As much as I tried to block it out, it eventually lowed my self esteem to nothing.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Much of this sounds like the talking of someone who is suffering from depression. Did you ever tell him that your feelings were hurt - you say you laughed it off, so it appears that you did not make it clear to him. No one can "brainwash" you. Someone's signature line quoted Eleanor Roosevelt saying that no one can make you feel inferior without your consent.<P>How come you stayed for 16 years, and did not leave until you had an affair? If it wasn't too awful to stay before, why was it suddenly too awful? Sounds like revisionist history to me.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>My ex also said how could you throw away 16 years of marriage. I was so hurt and emotionally torn apart by that point that I just didn't even want to live anymore.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <BR>How could you throw away 16 years of marriage and your family without making any attempt to make things better? It sounds like you were suicidal - rather clear evidence of depression.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Somehow I got the strength together and left with only a sleeping bag, pillow and my clothes, got an apt, got a 2nd job and I paid child support for 4 months.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>That doesn't take strength. Leaving with only a few items sounds like running away to me. What takes strength is staying and trying to make things better. I don't understand how you could leave without your children.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>My X begged and begged me to come back, go out to dinner just one more time, etc., etc. I refused<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>This is probably one of the cruelest, most selfish, and saddest things I have read on this board. Why couldn't you give him another chance? Just because "you" were afraid of getting hurt again? What about your kids? What about the destruction of their family? What about their hurt? What about your H's hurt?<P>

Nellie1,<BR>I was very disturbed by your post as well. I will do my best to answer each and every one of your questions. First of all my X was a cop - trained in every aspect of the law and went to numerous seminars/schools to be a detective, auto crimes, juvenile, etc. He was trained to be very manipulative and could interrogate criminals extremely well.<BR>I felt like a prisoner in my own home.<P>I told him on numerous occasions that he was pushing me away. Believe me, I wanted to leave early on, but I was raised to stay in the marriage no matter what and I had a lot of pride and didn't want to be a failure. I did not just decide to leave because of the affair. I knew if I went back it would be twice as bad. I had always been accused of lying, cheating and being deceptive. I cryed myself many times to sleep and at one point just wanted to kill myself because I was so miserable, but I loved my girls and I loved life and that would be selfish.<P>He worked evening shifts for ten years while I did everything from mowing the grass, edging the yard, cleaning the house, taking my 2 girls everywhere (they are very active in sports), he never had weekends off. Then when he was switched to auto crimes, he actually had weekends off, and decided to go to college at night. He has received his bachelors and is now working on him masters to become an attorney. Again, I did everything while working a 40 hr job.<P>I asked him to go to counseling, he refused and said all I was going to do was blame him for everything. My response was I want this marriage to stay together and we both have problems to work on. I finally went on my own without him knowing it.<P>As far as running away, honey, you have no ideal, my mother and brother came down after I had the affair because he called my mother and told her I was suicidal and was going to jump off the top of the building I worked at (that was a lie). I was interrogated like a criminal for 2 solid hours in front of my mother and brother, he had the phone tapped and read the odometer on my car. Things got pretty heated with my mother & brother, so I took what I could grab and went to a hotel. He would not let me take anything else and I did not want to have him arrested in front of my girls. He took every penny I had in my wallet, my credit cards, calling card, my address book, everything except my drivers license & ss card.<P>One day, he took my car from my job and hid it from me for a week in a half, he rummaged through my car at my apartment, I was afraid to even park it there or throw out my trash. I had to drop my trash off in a dumpster. He tried to have my mother arrested for stepping on our property because she was going to give one of my girls a birthday present. He called the police and told them I kidnapped my daughter and had her in the closet at my apartment because he could not find her after a volleyball game. He harassed me at work on the phone. I finally called the Chief of Police and told her he was calling on her time and I would call her everytime he called me. After 4 months, my girls came to live with me and he would not even give me one of their beds to sleep in. They had to sleep on an air mattress I bought and got sick several times throughout the winter months. He locked them in the house one time and would not let them leave. I had to call the police and they almost kicked the door down. Don't forget he is a cop too.<P>My girls lived with my X for 4 months. I never spoke negatively about him in front of him. The very first weekend I took my girls, he got a woman pregnant (she just happens to be a cop). They are now married and I am happy for him. In the 1 & 1/2 years we have been divorced he has not taken the girls 1 time for the weekend; however, they did spend the night last Wednesday with him. He takes them out to eat maybe once a week and that is it.<P>He did not even attend 1 of my daughters basketball games or golf tournaments. And, the other daughter, he has never gone to one of her band concerts and has only attended maybe 4 games out of 12 tournaments this summer. I work the extra job so she could play on this very expensive tournament team which traveled to Colorado, Dallas and California this year.<P>Nellie, I could go on and on, but I want you to know divorce was the last option for me and I had been accused of having affairs over the years time and time again. Most of the people he worked with didn't even know he was married. He never talked about me, so who was really having the affair all those years? maybe him, who knows.<P>My girls were hurt through all of this, but only from the lies that were told to them from my X about how horrible of a person I was. He told them I was nothing but a home wrecker, f_____ whore, and lying b_____. He still continues to mess with the girls heads, but now they know who plays the head games and they have very little respect for him. <BR> <BR>And it is obvious you have not been around a controlling and manipulative person. I broke the cycle of mental abuse, but only after I learned of it through United Way. The first year the program was put on at my job, I thought this is not right, I am going through this mental abuse in my marriage. The second year when United Way came to my job, I was at the attorney's office filing for divorce!!!! You are supposed to love, honor, respect and cherise the person you love, not disrespect and hurt them. I hope this clears up some of your questions, if not, please let me know.

elliott45<P>Every word you wrote, ever fear you ever felt, I've been there. You are right. Unless you've walked a mile in those shoes, you'll never understand.<P>I was married for 20 years to the same kinda guy until I had the strength to leave. Brainwashing? You bet. These men are capable of it. Sorry Nellie, but I too was asked, "If it was so bad, how come you never left?" <P>I thank God every day that my family was behind me. I thank God every day that my family didn't ask those questions, but stood behind me unconditionally.<P>Financial, mental, emotional, and sexual abuse was only part of the whole picture. Unfortunately, when you are in a situation like this, it is so subtle over the years that one day you wake up and ask yourself what the h*!! happened. Three years later I STILL have a restraining order against the man and he continues to harass me.<P>What may seem clear to people who have never experienced abuse is very cloudy to people who are the ones being abused. You slowly become a shell of yourself and become a slave to these people. They do brainwash you. What kept me in that position was my three children. He lead me to believe that I would be a nothing without him (I can see exactly where Eliot is coming from!) Thank God for shelters, thank YOU GOD for people who showed me how to live again. And a big thank God for people like Elliott45 who share their stories on boards like this so people who've never experienced abuse can learn and become compassionate to those who have. God Bless you Elliott45.

"Every word you wrote, ever fear you ever felt, I've been there. You are right. Unless you've walked a mile in those shoes, you'll never understand."<P>"Unfortunately, when you are in a situation like this, it is so subtle over the years that one day you wake up and ask yourself what the h*!! happened.<P>Add another "formally" tortured soul on this thread. Unless you've survived verbal and mental abuse etc., you'll never and I mean NEVER understand! Please know you've been "heard" by me. You put in writing MANY things I experienced but were too painful for me to write in this forum, even after over three years away from the abuse. THANK YOU!<P>Gayle<BR>

Ragmuffin & Elan,<BR>I'm in tears after reading your post, Nellie1 will probably never understand unless she has been there. I could write a book on everything I have been through. I was always the happy go lucky person that he was trying to drag down because he was insecure, jealous and controlling.<P>I'm a survivor and I have tried to forget the horrible things that were said to me. After 1 & 1/2 years, I'm still very scared to date because I don't even know what a normal relationship is since I have never been in one. I never knew what I did to make him treat me the way he did. I did what I thought I was supposed to do in a marriage and got treated like crap. Life goes on and I'll make it one way or the other!!!!

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> I didn't ask for this to happen! Why did it happen? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I suspect that it happened because a low self esteem person looks to the outside, looks to the situation to gain the esteem needed. I also suspect she hit a small depression that she can't explain, whether its an age related, or career related, or learned from her family of origin.<P>MLC's are depressions and the solutions to them are mostly learned behaviors from the past. My X is displaying all the characteristics of her mom, and even told me that because her parents should have divorced (in her opinion) she is divorcing me. Finally, she has never felt she has fit in anywhere, and she has finally found a group of people to fit in with, and since they are my antithesis, she feels she can't work with me on the marriage.<P>also, certain personality types, especially ones with combinations of E and F, and S and J, are prone to these types of reactions, in my opinion from anecdotal evidence.<P>so those are the areas you should pursue in my opinion, but only if you want answers from her point of view. it may or may not help you, depending upon how sane or ludicrous the reasons may be.<P>good luck<BR>sWIFTTy

Elliott45<P>{{{{{HUGE HUGS}}}}} Do know that there are people that DO understand what you have been through. It takes a long time to overcome all the damage and to feel *whole* again. But it DOES happen.<P>I am in the process of writing a book about it. I am also very active in the justice system where victims of abuse get the shaft (and my 40+ times in court can attest to it). And...I am pleased to tell you that people ARE listening. I chose to be pro-active rather than re-active. Thing is Elliott, these men are sick. There are many reasons why they are like the way they are. My ex has NOT changed. He is still manipulative, abusive etc. I feel sorry for my children and others who have to deal with him. My home in contrast is one of peace. <P>Slowly you learn what is *normal* and you begin to *expect* good things for yourself. It takes courage Elliott to leave, but strength to survive. I could tell everyone stories that would make you scream, but somehow I feel you have your own stories where I would nod and say, "Yeah....I understand how it feels".<P>It's comforting in a way to find others who have experienced the SAME things that you do because it gives you the strength to carry on. At least that's what I found in my experience. There comes a point in time where you just learn to shrug off people that don't understand. One day the things that bothered you don't matter anymore, but you will NEVER forget.<P>As for the dating and trusting someone again -- you learn to do that too. Have faith my friend. I have met a wonderful man who knows all about my baggage and the on-going court battles I face. Sometimes I have to pinch myself to see if humans really are as nice as this guy... then I realize that there is a reason for everything. God placed this man in my life so that I could see that not all is evil in this world.<P>Thank you for sharing. I came here the other day feeling sorry for myself because the ex was being cruel again with the kids. What I found was a supportive network and finding you was a bonus! You'll make it! We ALL will! If either of you want to write off the board, I would be more than happy to respond. elan_brown@hotmail.com

Elan,<BR>Thank you, for your kind words I would like to talk off this forum, I e-mailed you. My e-mail address is kmorris@cei-crescent.com

I'll add my address as well.....<P>ragamuffin@dogmail.com<P>I've been somewhat "paralized" in my ability to write on the subject that wounded me deeper than I realized. Only after living away and divorcing the "treatment", surrounding myself by loving family and friends, educating myself, coming here to MB's, I've been able to look at "it" with a much healthier perspective. Not through the eyes of my abuser.<P>Whew, that was hard!<P>Gayle<P>P.S. Thank you positivebryan for the chance to post on your thread with these fine ladies!

Bryan, <P>I just got back to this thread and read what you said....well I am humbled, really I am. I don't feel the way you described me....I am usually in a kind of fog myself!!!<P>The thing is, I love the man with all my heart, he is really a good, good person who really made some bad choices, and somewhere inside me says that if he can't be happy with me, he is better off without me. I've read some "soul" stuff, like Gary Zukov and others....and I think if I'm not it for him, then so be it. But hey, I'm giving it my BEST shot, and sometimes I get a clue that he's noticing.<P>If you read my recent posts, you will see that I am not always that together about this, and I, like most people here have NO clue as to what the hell is going on. But I TRY. You must do that, then if it does ultimately end, at least you KNOW you did everything you could. <P>I am really thankful for the praise, but I do feel undeserving!!!<P>Take care!

Elliott,<P>It would be interesting to hear your exH's side of the story. It might be quite different. <P>You say I can't understand mental abuse if I have never suffered it. Can you understand the devastation a BS feels - I doubt it very much. Under such circumstances BS's have been known to completely off the deep end. You seem to be trivializing the impact of your affair on your H. <P>No, I do not understand this concept of "mental abuse." You can only be abused by someone in a position of power - thus, certainly it is possible for children to suffer mental abuse at the hands of their parents, but you are an adult. What power does a spouse have over another? Only the power that you allow them to have, unless they are threatening physical harm - but that is not mental abuse, that is physical abuse. It seems to me that the appropriate reaction if someone continually berates you is to first tell them how it bothers you, and if that has no effect, the appropriate reaction would be anger. If someone is giving you unwarranted criticism, the appropriate reaction would be to tell them that the criticism is unwarranted, and to go jump in a lake if they have a problem with it. <P>In any case, even if you had been physically abused, there is NO justification for an affair. Period.

Wow Nellie,<P>That was harsh.... although I agree with you on *affairs* I hardly feel I am qualified to pass judgements on anyone.<P>I think I may need to walk in YOUR shoes to understand the bitterness I read in your posts.<P>God Bless

Nellie1,<BR>Yes it would be interesting to hear my X's side of the story. That's why I wanted him to go to counseling? I don't know what I did to him to make him treat me the way he did. I did tell him on many occasions over and over that he hurt my feelings and I never said I was perfect either. Like I said unless you have been a victim you will never be able to understand how someone can brainwash you. I too never understood why women would not get out of a physically abusive relationship, but know I understand how hard it is because their self esteem is lowered to nothing.<P>I was willing to try anything to save the marriage. You are right by saying there is no excuse for an affair - I honestly believe that if 2 people are married and they love honor and cherise each other there is no room for an affair. There is a section in MB that describes my emotional state to a "T" and that is where I was. It states at that point there is nothing left and the marriage should be resolved.<P>My girls have taken the blunt of this whole ordeal and I have talked with them and explained what happened. How do you think they felt when he got another woman pregnant the very first weekend I took the girls? You think that was very responsible? I should have been highly upset, but my saying is what goes around comes around.

Elliott,<P>I don't recall reading anything in Surviving an Affair or in the articles on this board that said that a marriage should be ended based on one of the party's emotional state. Could you point me to that?<P>I never said that your H's reaction to your affair was not excessive. However, many of the actions you described are extremely common. There have been a number of posts, for instance, asking for advice on how to tap the phone, how to read the WS's email, etc. There have been BS's here who admitted to picking someone up and sleeping with them within days of discovery. I would not be surprised if most divorced or separated custodial parents would immediately suspect parental kidnapping if they could not find their child. <P>Are you saying that the affair was your H's fault because he didn't love, honor, and cherish you? You made the decision - not him. The affair is YOUR responsibility, as was pointed out in this months' MB newsletter. <P>Unfortunately, affairs DO happen in marriages where both spouses love, honor, and cherish each other. Many betrayers freely admit that their affair was NOT about the quality of the marriage, but about them. Many affairs are a consequence of depression. <P>Perhaps someone could tell me how, exactly, Elliott's justifications really differ from those of SadandLonely or any of a number of other WS's who have posted here.<P><p>[This message has been edited by Nellie1 (edited August 14, 2001).]

Thanks Mike!<BR>

Well Nellie, I can answer for me. While I felt neglected, and my wife's steady criticism was labeled abuse by the marriage counsellor, and I subsequently (with my wife) entered the withdrawal stage of marriage, there was one big difference...gender. It is much harder to subject a male to battered spouse (usually called battered wife) syndrome. This a well documented psychological condition, perpetrated mostly by males on their female partners. <P>You err if you think one can just ignore this effect in dealing with such an individual. I have had direct contact with women who have been hit almost everyday of their marriage (for example) for YEARS, and not leave. I asked one particular woman why (a few months ago), and she said you come to believe it is normal, that somehow you are the problem, and deserve this...it happens nellie, hard as it is to believe, it happens, everyday, to thousands of women (and a few men). Most think of abuse as hitting, it is not just that, their is horrendous abuse meted out by verbal/emotional means. The purpose is control of someone, and it becomes a toxic dance. The more it works the worse it gets. The aforementioned womans husband to this day refuses to acknowledge his hitting, and married again. This time he married a woman who beats the crap out of him too, fight like two mad dogs, so it works sort of. But his first wife, who just wanted to love him and raise their child, he almost destroyed mentally. You need to do your homework, this stuff is real. In my case, as strong and self-assured as I am, I succombed too, the constant criticism (which I complained about loudly for years) took it's toll, my self-esteem suffered, I accomplished less, was always emotionally off-balance (walking on egg shells syndrome), etc. etc. You have no idea how it is to live with someone whose coping mechanism is anger.<P>I had pretty much decided/accepted we would divorce, as soon as kids finished raised (a couple more years), I had no idea how vulnerable I was to someone who treated me with respect, and interest. Is no excuse, and I would do it differently if had a 2nd chance, but there it is. I suspect in some strange way an affair is in part a healing process for an abused spouse, it validates you are valuable, and worthy of being loved, and gives you strength to confront the marital problems...or leave.<P>Yes we have not heard her H side, but unless we assume she is just making it up (and if so, why not assume everyone here is making up their stories), then she had a pretty hard way to go, and seems quite likely to be an abuse victim. Her affair just gave her H more ammo, and I am sure she knew that. Frankly I have no sympathy at all for bs who are abusers, it should be a major wake-up call for them if they love their wife at all.....but most don't, they love themselves.<P>Try here for a little insight <A HREF="http://www.verbalabuse.com" TARGET=_blank>www.verbalabuse.com</A>

sad_n_lonely<P><BR>I'm in tears. :-( One the kindest, gentlest man that I met (through Rebuilding, a course for people going through divorce). He and I sat down and talked. I found out that abuse is not strictly handed down by men. His wife would spit on him, rip his clothes and tell anyone who would listen what a beast he was. This man was an empty shell when I met him. He is now a wonderful friend (and NOOOOOOOOOO I NEVER dated him!) Thank you for sharing.

(((((((((sad_n_lonely)))))))))<P>Thank you for reminding us that verbal abuse knows no gender! Hopefully in your writing you've made it "real" to those who don't understand nor have ever experienced this kind of pain.<P>Gayle