Sheryl,<P>I am not sure that this discussion is really applicable in relationships where there is physical abuse.<P>I imagine that you would agree that leaving a 5 year old alone in a park is neglect. <P>I do not want you to think that I don't agree that actions such as you describe are cruel or hurtful. You have said that David suffers from undiagnosed depression, and based on his posts I would agree that something is seriously wrong (although I must admit I often had trouble following what he was saying). <P>I guess we will just have to agree to disagree on the definition of abuse.<P>Elliott,<P>It seems to me that once you start mentioning facts about your size difference, you are at least implying that there was the threat of physical abuse, which, as I have said numerous times, is a completely different story.<P>sadnlonely,<P>Yes, I have visited the site you mentioned. I have read fairly extensively in psychology and anthropology, and I majored in psychology. That does not mean that I agree with everything I read. <P>Sheryl said that emotional abuse is about power and control. You said that although some abusers are into it for the power, your wife was not. Later on you said that she was doing it to control you. These statements seem inconsistent. <P>I do not agree that you can be abused, even physically, if you don't consider yourself abused. What about couple who are into S&M - their actions would certainly constitute abuse in other situations. Are they still abusers even though willing participants?<P>If a couple both, for some reason, enjoyed screaming at each other, insulting each other, etc (this reminds me of "As the Stomach Turns" on the Carol Burnett show - I never could figure out why that was supposed to be funny) are they abusers?<P>This statement really bothers me:<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>In the process she ruined her marriage<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>One could infer from this that you are assigning the blame for your marital problems entirely to her.

Hi everyone,<P>This will be my last post on this thread unless I am asked a question specifically.<P>I am so tired after reading and writing on this thread. How do I explain 20 years of pain? Sigh.<P>Nellie, you are a smart woman. I know you know, in your heart, that there is a difference between being mean, and being abusive. If you want to believe that you're strong enough, or together enough, to not "allow" yourself to be abused -- so be it.<P>Yes, I will agree that leaving a 5 yr. old in the park is neglect... and of course, I could go further with that thought... but I won't. It simply hurts me too much to revisit again.<P>David is depressed... I am sure of it. But he was *ALWAYS* that way. I was the happy one, I was the strong one, I was the one who held it all together. That doesn't make what he did right, or not abusive. But again, I know you know that.<P>I admit to smiling when I read that you couldn't understand him... Lord know I didn't... and neither did anyone else. And also, it makes me sad, because despite everything (and I mean EVERYTHING), I loved him for many years. <P>I have done my work on this, and for now, for this time, I am through. <P>Someone who understands, and wishes she didn't,<P>Sheryl<P>

Sheryl!<P>"Someone who understands, and wishes she didn't"<P>A great quote! <P>and now....I'm "packing for the afterlife"! One filled with much joy and pleasure! One filled with people who are respectful and loving. I do hope that you do post on "Life after Abuse". Your input and your journey through this is what keeps others plugging away that are in the places we have been before now. Your wisdom and your insight IS valuable and worthy! Even to someone who's been there! I for one want to hear the "afterlife".<P>Thanks so much Sheryl for hanging in there through this thread. I think it's shown a whole lot of people that some people can't understand *explanations*, they need to experience. I for one wouldn't wish this experience on my worst enemy.

Sheryl,<P>You have said on a number of occasions that David was a good person. Lately, however, your posts have seemed increasingly negative, and I have gotten the impression that he treated your poorly pretty much your entire marriage. Certainly a good person can act uncharacteristically awful during episodes of depression, and/or during an affair, but I am having difficulty reconciling the idea of his being a good person with continuous behavior of this sort. <P>I am also concerned with your statement that David has always been depressed - my understanding is that depression is cyclical, either rapid or not, and periods of depression rarely last more than a couple of years. Of course there are other mental illnesses with similar symptoms.

Hi Nellie,<P>Let me explain: <P>As a person who was systematically abused (and I mean that) I became desensitized to the abuse -- and when he would do something "abusive" he would then cry and ask for forgiveness -- always given. I went back and forth between feeling pity for him (which I felt was loving him) and hating him.<P>I did not realize or reconcile, in my mind, that what he was doing *was* abuse. So, when I said he was a good person, I meant it. <P>Am I saying this right?<P>Nellie, I loved David with all my heart and soul. He was always dark and brooding, and that's part of what attracted me to him. His pulling doors off hinges and punching holes in walls -- I thought it was manly. I had a dad who was "weak" according to my mother... and I had a husband who was "strong"... does this make sense? <P>I know I sound negative about David lately, and that is because I only recently began to realize the damage he was causing. I honestly feel that underneath the [censored] who my ex-H **could** be (and was, too often) there lurked a good man. <P>What you are seeing, Nellie, is the result of not believing in myself enough to see the signs of an emotional/spiritual death...<P>I still want to believe that 20 years of marriage and three children MEANT SOMETHING to him. I still want to respect the vows that we took in 1980 (even though the marriage is over -- I won't act as if it never existed). I still want to believe that he LOVED ME. <P>And so it is a fight within me -- do I tell the truth about David, and risk losing all respect for him? Not to mention look a fool for having not said it all in the first place -- or keep silent and let it all fall back on his "depression" or his "emotional problems" or whatever it is that makes him act the way he does.<P>Nellie, you are seeing a damaged person who is trying to find the balance and begin anew.<P>I know it's confusing, because I have to *****live***** it.<P><BR><p>[This message has been edited by Nyneve (edited August 15, 2001).]

nellie, re ruined her marriage, I was speaking from her point of view, you correctly questioned that...so no, I do not blame her. No one is 100% responsible for the failure of any relationship, and assigning blame to others is of little value, but assessing what happened and how (which does mean accoutability for ones actions) is important. The fact is when one partner is abusive, uses anger, and will not stop, there is little the other can do. Sometimes continuing to confront, or plan A, or pray etc. will work, sometimes not, eventually the last thing that can get attention is tried, leaveing the marriage. The control of me I referred to, (which you wondered about), was as I stated not about a sick need to make someone dance just for the sake of exercising power...... it was about getting her agenda accomplished. One form it took was to get me to make promises, (to avoid conflict, and to make her happy), but then when I didn't deliver, I was the bad guy. The problem was I never should have made the promises in the first place, they were always about her.....and so forth and so on. I came to feel very unimportant to her as a person, only important as a meal ticket, the provider of whatever she thought she needed. Like I said, there are others much worse off, I had no physical fear, I just thought I wasn't worthy of being loved.<P>I am happy to hear you are well read re psychology and behaviour, but this makes your reluctance to acknowledge emotional abuse even more mystifying.

Sheryl,<P>Not much to say at this point. I could go on and on with stories extremely similar to yours but I won't. Instead, I'll give you a <B>BIG</B><P>((((((((((HUG))))))))))<P>Mitzi

Hi Mitzi,<P>Yes, I know you could probably tell my stories for me -- sad thing about men like our ex's -- such a shared history. <P>I hope this has all helped someone today, because, to be frank, it's hurt my spirit a bit. <P>What I told Nellie is so true, that this has been a process for me. I honestly thought David *was* a good man. I believed it because I believed that I was treated as most people (esp. women) were -- like crap. But hey, I deserved it, right? <P>The process stopped for awhile, and began anew a few weeks ago in earnest. Why? I really don't know, to be honest. And I guess it doesn't matter, does it?<P>The point is, I am growing (I thought I was all through with that now that I'm in my 40's, but have found that LIFE is a growing process).<P>(((((Mitzi)))))<P>Thank you, Sweetie, for the hugs!!

Sheryl,<P>I hope it does help someone too! And I like to think it does. In sharing things like this, maybe we can help one person who is being abused see that it's ok to admit. <P>I also thought that deep down my ex was a good man. He was verbally abused as a child and that's how I explained his behavior. I wanted the man that I THOUGHT he could be, not the man that he actually was. And I, like you with David, loved him with my entire being. There was nothing I wouldn't do for him!<P>Don't let this hurt your spirit, Sheryl. Use it as a cleansing! Getting rid of the negative to make room for more positive! Although, I don't think I've dealt completely with my abuse. It still seems as if it happened to someone else. I think I've still kept that "part" of me separate and buried. I can talk about it, but it doesn't seem as if it was real. (Although I know it was). 10 1/2 years of abuse and ridicule is a lot to deal with! I can only imagine how hard it would be to process 20 yrs.<P>We will come out of this process ok and surviving! <P>Mitzi

WOW!!! What a thread!<BR>I'm glad you have agreed to kind of disagree.<P>I myself feel that there are different levels of abuse. <BR>Myself for example.<P>My EX first hit me when we were first married. The reason was I forgot to write down a check in the checkbook. I was 19 and had never been hit in my life. He didn't hit me often but enough. I never classified myself as a abused person but now I know I was. I started to be afraid of him not what someone should ever feel in a marriage. I started to hide the bills ect because I was afraid he would get angry. It wasn't only the physical abuse it was how he made me feel sometimes. He didn't talk to me for two days after we had first gotten married because I wouldn't ask my folks for money to get him out of debt. Remember I was 19 and very stupid and I did it. I have had to live with that guilt ever since then. <P>It went on like that for years. We had good times too but the fear of him never went away. I felt like I was walking on egg shells for many years. Finally it came to a head one day. He got mad and put his fist up to me. He is 6'0 200lbs.<BR>I am 5'0 120 lbs. He turned around and was leaning over the tub cleaning off his boots and I kicked him right into the wall hard enough that he had a large goose egg on his head. I proceeded to kick at him and asked him if he liked it. It was then he realized what he had been doing to me all those years.<P>He never hit me again but then came the emotional abuse. He would criticize my hair, my clothes ect. He constantly complained about the way I did the bills, my shifts at work ect. I would try to tell him about my day and he would look at me and say"So". This was after everyday me listening to all of his long drawn out stories. I put up with so much and what did I get for it. Not a damn thing! <P>All I know now is that I am so happy right now. I no longer have to wake up with the feeling of a black cloud over my head. I can walk through life now not on eggshells but on good solid ground. One thing I know is that I will never live like that again. <P>Like I said before I never felt as if I was a abused woman but hind site is 20/20.<P>Jill

Oh Jill,<P>I'm sorry for your shared story -- and share your insight, seen with clarity now that it's over.<P>(((((JILL)))))

(did all of you secretly cheer when you read the part "He turned around and was leaning over the tub cleaning off his boots and I kicked him right into the wall hard enough that he had a large goose egg on his head. I proceeded to kick at him and asked him if he liked it.")<P>I don't know how many times I wished I would have lashed out and given back to him what he dished out. However, I don't think it would have done anything. He has since apologized to me...at the beginning of the divorce. Almost like a "Please forgive me so I can live my life like I did". I think he KNEW that things for him would be different.<P>He's since been in a relationship that's been off and on. I even got a letter from one of his lover's pre-divorce who heard that he wasn't paying child support etc...(that's ANOTHER story). What I am striving for is the "indifference". Some days it's better than others.<P>Jill's right though....hindsight is 20/20<P>

This thread has really hit home with me and I have struggled with whether or not to even post this. I hope some of you are still here to listen.<P>I am the BS and have been married 18 years. D-day was two and a half years ago. Alot has happened in the past two years but to make a long story short, we are getting divorced. We were in counseling together but have not been in over a year. I am now in counseling both with a therapist and a minister. Through my counseling I have come to realize that I have been emotionally abused for at least the past ten years, if not longer. Most people who know me would be very surprised at this - I am highly educated, bright, friendly and fun to be with. That is what the outside world saw. In my marriage though, I was never validated and in fact was the object of much disrespect. It started very subtly but built over the years to the point where I had no self-confidence at all and most often kept silent to avoid being put down. If I ever gave him my opinion or any advice, it would be completely ignored but the same advice from other friends would be like gospel to him. I could never do anything right - from the way I responded to my husband, the way I talked to other people, the way I disciplined our children, the way I spent money and on and on. My high-maintenance husband took great pride in telling others about how low-maintence I was. In fact, I know now that rather than asking for anything from him and risk being rejected or ridiculed I simply withdrew.<P>As time went by my goal became to keep the peace at any price. Of course that meant not talking about my feelings, isolating myself and letting alot of the anger build up inside me. My husband now would say that I was never in touch with my emotions, that I was cold and unaffectionate. That was all true but it was simply my defense mechanism, not the way I really am.<P>When I first was introduced to the concept of emotional abuse (only a month ago) I was very resistant - how could I, a bright professional woman over 45 years old, be emotionally abused? But it all fits and it is like a light bulb has gone off. I think back over different situations over the years and realize now that I was being subjected to raw abuse and manipulation. Never overt or where anyone could see (as with physical abuse) but just as dangerous and sick. In fact it will take me years to get over the abuse and rebuild my self-esteem. Even now, separated and nearing divorce, I still find myself scared to death about how my husband will react to different things I say and do. It is sick but it is so inbred in me now that it is hard to break the cycle.<P>The good news is that I am aware now and I know that I am strong and healthy. For so long I believed that there was something terrible wrong with me but I know now that it is not me. I contributed to problems in our marriage, sure, but I am not emotionally dead. It was an act of manipulation on my husband's parrt to try to make me believe that about myself. <P>The good news is that I am breaking free - he no longer has control over me. The bad news is that as I am not sure he will let me go. But I AM STRONG.<P>Thank you for listening. Emotional abuse is very real and it hurts.<P>God bless all of you.

Hi Tigerlily58<P>I think we all struggle with the "why's". Why did he treat me this way? Why did I allow it to happen? Why didn't it ever change? Why wasn't I *good* enough? Why...why...why???<P>I'm an intelligent woman. Educated and fun. How can a person like my ex damage me so much? I guess like you, I wanted the answers to this so that I could get on with my life. Some of the questions I have may never be answered.<P>I found a website though that describes my ex to a *T*. I talks about people with narcissistic personality disorder. The traits to this are amorality, authoritarian, care only about appearances, contemptuous, critical of others, cruel, disappointing gift-givers (you know I think I'm the ONLY wife that got power tools that sat in my husband's garage for HIS use...lol), hyper-sensitive to criticism, impulsive (only when it came to his toys though), lacking sense of humor (unless it was a joke that HE told), naive (I could prove to him things and he would swear the opposite), passive (NOT), pessimistic, religious (NOT), doesn't recognize his own feelings, envious and competitive (to the point where we didn't have friends), feel entitled (to sex, money, anything HE wanted), flirtatious or seductive (I found out just HOW flirtatious he was after the divorce), grandiose (champagne tastes and a beer budget), hard to have a good time with (he!! yes...if you laughed and he wasn't laughing, you'd be whisked into the car so fast you didn't know what happened), hate to live alone (couldn't stand being in the house by himself...not even 5 minutes), secretive (hah! need I explain this one?), self-contradictory, stingy, strange work habits, unusual eating habits, weird sense of time. <P>Out of all these.....two didn't fit. Who knows if this is what he has, or if he's depressed, or if it's his family of origin that caused him to be that way. I've learned that I AM NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR HIS BEHAVIOUR. NO MATTER HOW MUCH I GIVE TO THIS MAN IT WILL NEVER BE ENOUGH.<P>I left emotionally long before I threatened to leave physically. I too learned how to hide my emotions, feelings and sense of self to the point where I didn't even know myself anymore. I cried once I think...when our youngest almost died. She was 10 weeks old. He showed up in the hospital three days later only to tell me that he didn't marry a wimp and that I had no right to cry. I dried my tears. I didn't even cry when my father died (my ex was living in the house, refusing to move). I HAD to be the strong one. Twelve years later...I cried...real tears, tears that streamed down my face. I was in a safe place. I cried for all those missing 12 years. The tears of joy...tears of sorrow. <P>The bad news....my ex will NEVER let me go. He will let me go when either I die, or he dies. But you know what? It doesn't matter anymore. He lost his control when I didn't care anymore....that was when I came back to life.<P>You too Tigerlily will blossom like you were meant to. Right now...you are finding your way out of that box that your ex put you in so lovingly to protect you from the world. Protect you from everyone so that only HE could see you when HE wanted to and expose you when HE wanted to. Thing is...the flower started to wilt, and struggled to get out of that damned box! Now....the flower is starting to come back to life. Your ex doesn't have control over how much sunshine you get, how much nutrition, how much anything. And all HE wants to do is figure out a way of putting you back in that damn box!<P>You GROW girl!<BR>From one blossom to another!<BR>Elan<P>thanks for sharing.. {{{hugs}}} <P>

Elan -<P>Thank you so much. I feel so alive right now because I finally am beginning to understand where I have been . . . and I know I will never go back there.<P>I need to go to bed but just wanted to check in . . . funny you should mention narcissistic disorder - my minister told me today that he thought it applies to my husband to a T - please tell me the address of that website . . .<P>I will blossom . . . and so will you ...<P>Thanks and hugs . . .

Hey Tigerlily,<P>Here it is:<BR> <A HREF="http://www.halcyon.com/jmashmun/npd/traits.html" TARGET=_blank>http://www.halcyon.com/jmashmun/npd/traits.html</A> <P>If anything...it's an interesting site. I was surprised how many of the traits though that my ex actually was exactly exhibiting!<P>night all! *yawn* -- been a long, but glorious day!<P>Thanks one and all!