Emmie,<P>I don't want to sound like a broken record, but what you are describing is so common in so many marriages. Before I was the wise woman I am now I thought something was wrong with me for not desiring my H sexually. But many many months of self reflection and therapy later (and after going through the devastation of dual infidelity), I've come to realize that nothing was wrong with me, or my H, but something was wrong with our relationship big time!<P>Through the years, somehow we had turned into a brother/sister relationship instead of a husband/wife or lovers relationship. Who wants to have sex with your brother or sister???? I think this may be more of what your H is feeling, rather than he just doesn't find you "hot." He probably views you as more of a sister, (maybe even a mother) or other such family member rather than a lover and a wife. This is what you need to address and fix.<P>If I could go back in time, that's exactly what I would do. As soon as I noticed my aversion to sex with my H, I would have gotten us into marital and maybe even sexual therapy right away!!! What happened instead was we let it go on too long. Almost ten years. And we both ended up having affairs! So, please, don't make the same mistakes so many of us have already made. Don't ignore the problem. Get into counseling ASAP before you find yourself on the Infidelity Forum trying to repair something that is a hundred times worse.<P>Take care!

dear emmiebear,<BR>i am in the same boat. we have been married for 20 mths. he is 27 and i am 26. i used to throw tantrums. he has built a lot hatred. i told him that sex ias importanrt.to take revenge he has 4 sexual aversions in 4 mths for 2 weeks each .this time it has been for aonth. he said that he never wants me physicall6y. i have acepted this as my destiny. but i saw him masturbating. i got upset, we had a big figh5t. no sex was hishoice not minr.

Try this, Emmie, because I know that it works on me...go to bed early, but set your alarm for an early morning hour so you have plenty of time to do this before he has to get ready for work...wake up in the early morning hours, and take charge...start with oral sex while he is asleep..no matter how the mind may seem disinterested, the body has other plans...then you get on top and fulfill your need...I know he will enjoy this..it is a pleasant way to wake up..if he doesn't, then I suggest a sexual therapist..any male that wouldn't enjoy this "wake-up call" has a serious problem that needs to be dealt with..Good luck.<BR>

emmiebear, this has been a really interesting thread. thanks for starting it.<BR>my w and i didn't have sex for over a year. that was about 3 years ago, and then i had an affair. i remember, long before the affair, that i lost interest in kissing my w. she even pointed it out and i just said i wasn't interested any longer in open mouth kissing. i felt too old, i had given up passion and sex. i felt like we were brother and sister.<BR>a lot has happened since then. i had the affair, ended the affair, and now we've been living together for just over 4 months. we try to have sex once a week but we skip it pretty often. i just don't find her attractive anymore. she's a wonderful woman and treats me great. i can have sex with her, she may or may not come, to be blunt, but i can't. we both know we need to get them sexual therapy and will do so soon, now that she's working and we can afford it.<BR>stephanas, i like your trick. one morning i woke up to my w masturbating. i checked and found that she was ready, you know what i mean? i decided to finish what she started but she resisted. i thought that was strainge but she did. i gently asserted myself and did it anyway. we both came. i thought that was a good idea for her to get things started.

I have been married for 15 years , have had 4 children and must say that after a day of nursing a baby, changing diapers etc I was worn out! I did not want to be touched anymore! Not by anyone! I found this to be true in other countries...I did a UNICEF/WHO project in third world countries and guess what! We are normal! In the US and I suppose Europe the rave was to farm out kids and get back to screwing! But if you are really involved with child raising it is hard . I thik htat we are all so hard on ourselves and want to blame someone or something... I always got "randy" when I was ready for another child and I was so fertile that bam that did it! I got pregnant and then didn't want sex for another few years! Oh I had to fake it but really I could do without! It was so nice to find out that I was normal! In some countries they send the new mom to live with her mother for 2 years while her husband works his [censored] off and brigns her home to an "estate" where they again get pregnant and she goes away again! We are not new in this plight! We just have to understand how it works... men need to nurture the mom so that she can nurture the child and then she sees him as her knight.... and he gets some...but it will be difficult for some years and that is the plain truth of it! But they are so sweet... they are of the two of you.. nothing melts a mom more than a dad that is supportive and gives her space! <P>4 kids been there done that.... funny mine cheated after the kids were grown out of the bed....

Wow! It's amazing to read posts from women who want sex. My W. has grown increasingly cold and resistent to sex over the last several years. Presently we are not having sex anymore and I cannot believe how much anger I feel about this. We never had equal libidos but hers has basically vanished. Today we saw our marr. counsel. and he said to continue ubtil my wife feels safe! Ugh!!!! My wife left with a smile and I was stuck with 'you need better communication' Now my wife wants me to 'prove' I can be affectionate without any sexual feelings huh? I'm actually concerned about my wife. Her desire level has decreased to nothing. I honestly believe we are too quick to rule out physical roots for these problems. Clinical Depression, low testoterone etc... Your husband needs a physical exam by a good urologist complete with blood work. I think we have become to 'emotion oriented' in our society. It took my ten years to have a heart arrythmia diagnosed because everyone including doctors said it was stress. I don't think there's cure all pill. But if your husband lost interest in food wouldn't people get worried? <BR>This ones for curiosity, was your husband present in the delivery room? I was for all three of my kids and while it was great from the point of being a DAD, I honestly think it created a sexual tension between my wife and I. EVERYTHING became funtional and belonged to my children. For most of history fathers weren't permitted to attend the actual birth. Sometimes I wonder if there was a lot more ancient wisdom to this. Not to infer a connection but the divorce rate went up when the men went into the delivery rooms. It would be interesting to know if anyone has ever studied this?<p>[This message has been edited by KAM (edited August 26, 1999).]

I am another wife who loves making love with my H. My desire has always been underneath my pain and fear, but I was always willing to make love with my H. He has a sexual addiction to porn and mast. which all but killed our sex life.<P>What helped us was following Dr. Harley's process word for word. Have you all done so with your spouses? Give it a try, it won't cost you anything (if you get his books from the library) and even if you buy his books after getting as much information as you can off his web page, you won't have to spend a lot of money on them. On the other hand, you will have to spend a lot of time with your spouses. Are you up to the challenge? Grab it and run with it, you will probably never regret that you did.<P>From one who has been there,<BR>Thoughtful<BR>

Kam,<P>Very interesting post. Actually, I had a c-section, so my husband never had to witness a delivery. I was in and out in 20 mins.<P>It would be fascinating if someone did a study on that, though.<P>Thanks for your input.<BR>

--<p>[This message has been edited by MaryBB (edited June 23, 2000).]

MaryBB,<BR>If its any consolation, that initial confusion did pass for me to a degree.But, I have to confess that after the kids came along I have had a much greater interest in lingere on my wife And the irony is that she is actually in better physical shape now and I am attracted to her like mad!<BR>My problem is that my wife has all but lost interest. unfortunately our Marriage Counselor(?) doesn't think its an urgent or priority issue. He has also said he doesn't think my wife has a problem. (Huh?) I'm totally frustrated (in both meanings of the word) and can't understand why sex therapy hasn't been recommended. This therapist is big into some program called the P.E.R.T. program which is totally communication oriented and personally doesn't seem to affirm my emotional needs. has any one heard of this program? I'd love to especially hear from some other men about it.

Hi KAM,<P>Have you asked the marriage counselor about P.E.R.T. directly? Any information available about the program?<P>The reason I ask is that I did a search on P.E.R.T., counseling, counsel, communication on infoseek and other places and could only come up with topics like this: Program Evaluation Review Techniques (PERT) These are education courses (i.e. This course addresses the process and skills needed for successful project management in the Computer Information Systems (CIS)/Information Technology (IT) environment of business.<BR>Subject matter covered includes: planning projects, identifying deliverables, determining work breakdown structure (WBS), estimating resource and cost requirements, budgeting, Ganntt charts, Program Evaluation Review Techniques (PERT), Critical Path Method (CPM), and managing project teams. 3 credits.)<P>Maybe you could use the search on Amazon.com??<P>Let us know what you find out. <BR>BTW, is there any way for you and your wife to try Harley as a counselor?<P>Hugs and prayers, Thoughtful<P>

Dear EmmieBear:<BR>I am too in the very exact same boat. Maybe your H and my H would be happy together (hee,hee). I just don't know what to do either (I also have a post NO SEX, NO affection,). I also get angry and resentful for putting me through it also. But, it's been 2 years since we had sex! So, I am really fed up and feel so incredibly distant. It's gotten to the point where I don't want him to touch me (which he doesn't anyway), but, if he did, I would just cringe! I think I've become a prune down there from waiting to be fulfilled from him. Right now, I do my own thing and trying to get myself together. I am not the type to have an affair but boy do I think about it... I would certainly leave before I would ever do anyting like that. We have gone through several marriage counselors but everything remains the same. I have cried, pleaded, begged, yelled, remained silent for 1 week, etc. I almost tried everything but killing him and nothing works. He says he's attracted to me, yeah right I say. Actions (to me) speak louder than words. I always say, back up what you say if you mean what you say. <BR>I feel for you and know exactly what it's like. My marriage is only 5 years old. I could maybe see if it was 50 years old, but not at a young 5 years. How sad it is that these things have to happen. We expect that we marry the perfect mate, our soul mate but end up just the opposite of what we expected. I am beginning to think that maybe my husband would be better off with someone else. I have needs that haven't been met. I'm starting to think that maybe we had different ideas of what marriage is suppose to be. I thought it was an equal union as one. Each other take care of each other and be there for one another. I just don't seem to get that kind of response. Oh well, I'm in the same damn boat that you are. Is your boat sinking like mine??? Hope to talk to you soon. Your friend, Katya

The PERT program I'm talking about does have a website at: <A HREF="http://members.aol.com/prepinc/" TARGET=_blank>http://members.aol.com/prepinc/</A> <BR>It's also called "Fighting For Your marriage". The problem I'm having is that it just doesn't seem to be clicking for me and now our 'counselor' has told my wife that he doesn't think he can help us because I'm so resistent to PERT and "it's the only program that works" My own therapist was recommending that I challenge this guy. It just seems like he's determined to not work with us. This may sound silly and paranoid, but at least I can vent it here. I almost wonder if this 'counselor' is attracted to my wife and is hoping it fails. But my realist side says that would be unprofessional of him and is just my insecurities. But he does put me down and has told my wife she's fine and I have a lot of problems and am oversexed. Huh? Our biggest issue is that she doesn't want sex anymore. We are now going on to six months and he doesn't consider that odd or a problem.

Dear Kam;<BR>I do have to say in response to reading everyone else's is that I agree with you. Yes, (since I am in the same situation) that it is a problem if there is no sex in six months. (How do you think I feel with no sex for 2 years?). Well, you may be oversexed, I don't know, but, that is not the issue at this point especially if there is no sex. I know how you feel about the therapist and it could just be a female/male thing. My H and I ahave gone to female therapist who sided with me and others have sided with my H. I just think that this is not a good therapist if he is pinning it on you and that he sees nothing wrong on her side of it. It takes two. A therapist should not be one-sided. If that's the case, which I know you can't, then go to another one. It took us 4 different therapists until we found one that we like. but, the same thing happenned to me. I did not like one of the therapist because I felt he aimed everything at me and nothing at my husband and he's the one that doesn't want sex! So, we changed. At least I can give my H that is if we both didn't feel comfortable with the therapist than we would find one that we both liked. Afterall, both of you are going for a problem, both of you should feel comfortable with the therapist. But, I know from reading your stories that changing therapist will not happen. I'm sad for you.<BR>My prayers are with you. Your friend, Katya<BR>Thanks for my e-mail if you haven't read my response.

Hi KAM,<P>I looked at the PREP (not PERT) site you posted. It looks like they use some of the same reasoning and techniques as Dr. Harley. They list a lot of resources like books, etc. that you can use.<P>Is there any way that you can talk to your W and come to an enthusiastic agreement about your marriage therapy?? I was thinking that maybe if you do not agree with her counselor's attitude that maybe she would be willing to either work on this with the resource material with you or find another PREP therapist in your area. Of course, she may not be willing to do this for whatever reason, but isn't it worth trying to come to an agreement you both can live with?<P>BTW, 6 mos. without sexual intimacy is not realistic (ask any other therapist) UNLESS your W is working through sexual abuse issues.<P>Have you read any of Dr. Harley's sexual fulfillment information or any of the books on sexual fulfillment that he recommends? Intended for Pleasure is a good one (IMHO).<P>Maybe if you can come to an agreement about using PREP, she might agree to using Marriage Builders in addition???<P>Well, enough of my suggestions. I am happy to say that I am happier now than I have ever been before in my marriage (except on the days when we had our 3 children). I know that this is a never-ending process, but I feel that our marriage has just started the best year we will ever have (We celebrated our 14th wedding anniversary yesterday.) and that each year will be better than the last. Oh yeah, I still get those low and medium days, but I can cope now so that the lows are not soooo low. <P>I hope that all of you search this site for inspiration for your marriages. Good luck to you all!!<P>Hugz and prayers, Thoughtful

Hi Katya,<P>I hope that you do not mind me asking a couple of questions here.<P>I was wondering how your counseling is going, you were responding to KAM's post and said that you have found a therapist who works with both of you. But in your previous post you talked about your ship sinking.<P>Have you and your H found out why he does not want to be sexually intimate? Usually there is a reason. I know that in my marriage there was, but it was hidden from me and I then thought it must have something to do with me physically or personally. Come to find out it didn't have anything to do with me except for the fact that my H decided that no sex was better than using me sexually (in other words he could not be sexually intimate with me but he could have had sex with me - or my body if you will). Thus no sex period. We went months at a time without sex. The only reason it was not years was due to counseling we had (but the sexual intimacy was short lived because the counseling was based on misinformation - oh all of that sounds so complicated).<P>Anyway, I just wondered because your first post sounded so down (like you were not getting help from the counselor you talked about in post 2).<P>Hope to hear from you again,<BR>Hugs and prayers,<BR>Thoughtful

Actually while the PREP method looks good, I really feel it was missing something very important. To an extent Dr. Harley's discussion on emotional needs was what drew me to this site. The PREP method as its being explained to us is about communicating feelings and negoiating compromise. Fulfilling one anothers emotional needs and and also recognizing that other things may effect a person's behavior do not seem to be part of it.<BR>My wife is very convinced by what the therapist says and feels that any change would mean we were failing. As for the sexual abuse, there was a 'minor' incident in for my wife when she was 12 or 14. She and the therapist both say its not relevant. I was hoping he would help her to start facing and exploring that issue and any other possible ones. I would love to work with my wife on this but she's convinced that sex is a problem because I have unrealistic expectations ("No one really has sex every week she says most couples only have it once a month or less. Be real." she has said)I am planning on trying to challenge the therapist to recommend we at least look into a sex therapist. I was really hoping this counseling would help explore this. Today I came down sick so I'll be seeing our family doc tonight and I'll ask her for a recommendation too.<BR>Actually, I don't just feel rejected and frustrated. I am worried for my wife's sake and upset that I can't seem to get to a point where she gets any help. so we can work together.

Hi KAM,<P>I understand. I will be thinking of you and praying that she will somehow learn that regular mutual sexual fulfillment and intimacy is as important to a marriage as any other factor.<P>There has got to be a way to discuss these things with her so that you both will find happiness. I pray that you find it.<P>Please let us know what happens. <P>Hugz and prayer, Thoughtful

Hi Katya,<P>Sorry I didn't reply to your post sooner - crazy week.<P>Boy, your situation sounds just like mine, except perhaps a bit worse. My hubby and I do have sex about once a month, but up until recently I just learned that it was pretty much "pity sex" and he only did it because I was bugging him about it. Talk about a self-esteem booster!!!<P>If misery loves company then I think that you and I will become good friends!!! I'm sorry you're going through the same thing, but it's nice to know that there is someone out there who understands EXACTLY what I'm feeling and going through.<P>Do you find you love him and hate him all at the same time? I, like you, can't stand to be touched by him, and although he tries to be affectionate towards me, I now have a difficult time accepting that affection and immediately withdraw from him. I can tell it hurts him and makes things worse, but I really don't know how else to react. I'm afraid to get close to him because invariably I want to take it to another level of intimacy and he never does. So, I just try to shut him out to avoid the hurt - but that's not working very well.<P>Like you, I've tried everything: begging, yelling, crying, leaving him alone, withdrawing...nothing but nothing works. Frankly, I'm tired of trying. Tired of being the only one who wants to work on this.<P>We started seeing a counselor last week, and although it's hard to judge someone by just a first meeting I liked her. She was very soft spoken and non-judgmental, and asked a lot of questions, but never took sides. Hopefully, she'll help (but between you and me, I doubt it - call me pessimistic).<P>Anyway, just wanted to say I understand where you're coming from, and I'm here to commisserate with you in your misery anytime.<P>Take care of yourself,<BR>Emmie

Dear Emmiebear:<BR>Boy do we have the same situation but you at least get sex once a month. I forgot what that feels like. Yes, to answer your question, I hate him and love him but since its been 2 years for me and alot of resentment and fighting and the distance that grew between us, I feel that the love which was heavenly is a fine line between heaven and hell. I don't have the same kind of love anylonger because of all the above. I feel diffently because I have to have gone through the changes that I had to to survive the neglect that I have gotten. Like you, I have tried sooooooo many times to get close and hoping to take it to another level, yet, it goes right back to the same old thing and I go back to shutting him out. It's that self-protection thing. But, now, I don't even bother attempting because nothing ever improves. There has been countless times in the past that he would undress and stand there and look at me ( and pose naked as if I should drop everything and run and attack his body). Granted, I use to. The word "use to". He has done that so often and I give him pleasure and it ends there. So, nowadays, he will do that from time to time and I just look at him and talk to him as if he has clothes on or I just ignore that he is standing there trying to get my attention. This is so one sided. I can't possibly express myself when it is not reciprocated. It's a vicious cycle of you (and I) putting our guard down to let them in and they act like they do and we just close the gate. I just don't understand it. I have no probelm in attracting any men and was once a model. So, I just don't see what the problem is. Yes, I might have put on SOME weight but not to an extent that one would be unattracted. The males that I talked to always say, Is he crazy??? Well, I don't know.... <BR>Well, please let me know how you are making out from time to time. You can always e-mail me. I'd like to know how you are progressing or regressing with the therapists. Therapists are funny. Sometimes, you think you really like them and then after a few sessions you find out you really don't. Anyway, keep in touch and many blessings that may come your way. Your friend, Katya