For those of you that don't know, I have doing the "no contact" with my husband the past month. He left in May and was really being a jerk and disrepectful. I agreed to meet with him today so he could take my son for ice cream. The first thing he said is that he commented how good I looked and said that my working out at the health is paying off. He also said that he is astonished that I was meeting with him and actually talking to him because I haven't talked to him in so long. He still contends that he wants a divorce and wants to move on with his life and wants me to move on with mine and he also contends that there is not OW. He talked to me for a long time and he held me by the hand and looked me in the eye. He talked about OR and I mostly listened and smiled, only interjected politely and gently a few times. He said that it would be good for Josh. He actualy offered to come and help do some things at the house which in the past he had refused to do. Yes!! He is still out to lunch on the monetary issues but I didn't argue with him about it - I figure let my lawyer do the dirty work. He also said that we have been married for a long time (14 years) and that he still cares about me. He smiled a lot and before he left he gave me a hug and kissed me on the forehead (another thing he refused to do before). he asked if I was making any friends and I hesitantly said yes (neither of us specified if it was a man or a woman) but he seemed to have a disappointed look on his face by my answer and it was as if he assumed I had a boyfriend (I don't). This is a major turning point but we have money issues to deal with and he was never logical or good with money when we were together and I always had to handle all the bills and constantly pull the reigns back from his spending problems. I've been an at home mom and I'm going to get a job but even so he is way off base as to what I should be getting in child support and to maintain the bills until the house is sold. We both have lawyers and they have been trying to stir the brew as well. First, what next as far as my future communication and actions with him and how do I handle the money issue without creating WWIII? Oh, and what do you think of the way he acted? The thing I like the best is if not anything else, I've earned his respect again but the question is how do I keep it? The other thing is this weekend he is visiting his family for a get together and they have been trying to break us up particulary his mother and that is who he is staying with. I know they are going to be working on him. I know she's going to have a fit that we are talking again. Thanks to everyone who gave me advice on how to handle my meeting with him - it went very well!!!!

You know the answer to that...more of the same. You find out what doesn't work, stop that...find out what does work, and do more of that. That is where it ceases to be simple. What you are finding out here is that values mean nothing when spoken, they are entities created by action. Read the entire book of James in the Bible tonight. It is really short, and to the point, and <B>awesome</B> desert after the ice cream scene...well played, BTW. Good job, I am proud of you. (P.S. Let us be proud, you remain <B>pleased</B>. Pride leads to anger, and taht is spelled LB to you now, understand?<P>He is tipping his hand, here...telling you what will work. Yes, money is not a potential LB, it is the main one now. Fix at least on money problem this week, even if it is just to touch base with a creditor, and explain you situation, try to make a doable arrangement with them. When he calls...which he will several times, trust me...be ready. When you are ready to close the contact (remember, you must do this every time, and on an upbeat note, no LBing at all here!) Just when he is about to hang up, say, 'Oh, wait...BTW, I...' [fixed that little money screw-up, except you say 'our problem with blah-blah-blah'] It is important that you make these things disappear...I know that you want him to be more responsible, but let's get him at the table <B>first</B>. Keep in mind the meta-state thing...here we have to show that we are working on the surface problem..finances. You can fix the other, but not until <B>after</B> he has returned to the marriage, and only then with great patience, and diligence.<P>You have done a good thing...anchor that feeling...use ice cream to make it real...did you eat any? What did this scene tonight smell like? Taste like, sound like? Give me story again, except this time include all of the sensory modalities...you will use this thing later to great advantage, but you must be able to 'live it' as much as you 'live' the pain, and rejection...is this making any sense to you? -Mike

Katie,<P>I'm so glad your meeting went well. That was not what I expected at all. Where do you go from here? I don't know. It seems like he's open to the communication and all indications are that he missed you. <P>I say keep up with the no contact for a while. But if he does contact you, go with it. Keep it short sweet and to the point but be polite. Right now he see's that you are doing pretty good without him and that is going to start those gears in his head. Remember YOU CAN'T CHANGE HIM. So continue to work on yourself and see what happens.<BR><P>------------------<BR>Love, Bill<P>-There are none so blind as those who refuse to see!-<BR>-Stand up and do the right thing, even if your standing alone.-

Hi Mike, Thanks for your support. I said to him about how the air smelled good and he looked at me rather oddly. I had my sunglasses on in the beginning because he had told me before that they looked cool so I made sure I wore them. And I wore a workout outfit and told him I was on the way to the health club. He told me that the health club must be paying off because you look really good (sight). He told me that he was astonished that I was there and even more astonished that I was talking to him while he wore a grin on his face. Then I said that the air smelled really nice tonight and he looked at me kind of strangely. I asked how his ice cream tasted and he said that they made it too cold. I was thinking “Oh bummer,” I wanted that ice cream to be delicious. He had coffee ice cream; his favorite covered with melted chocolate another favorite. I had vanilla. He smiled and said I had ice cream in my hair – I could tell he thought it looked cute! I really played everything up. Then he we talked small talk for a while. I asked him about his job and he went on for a while. I only interjected with supportive statements. I took off my sunglasses so I could establish eye contact and I purposely looked him in the eye a lot, occasionally he shifted his view and sometimes I did too so it didn’t appear to be obvious. He asked my son to throw his napkin away for him and began to talk about OR and our present communication problems. He told me that we were married for fourteen years and he still cared a lot for me. But he also said that he wanted to move on with his life and wanted me to move on with mine. He said that he wants the best for me and I told him that I want the best for him too. He said that he thought a lot about what I said to him on July 4th (we went to fireworks together even though separated) and he thought I had the right idea. On July 4th I told him that if we were going to get divorced that we should try to get along as friends and make it as amicable as possible. He took my hand and clasped it into his and talked to me about OR. in relation to our communication problems for a long time. He asked my son to give us a few minutes alone. He said to him, “I haven’t gotten to talk to your mother in a month.” He was in no hurry to leave and when we parted he gave me a hug and a kiss on the forehead. Oh and he told me he spent $1,000 with his lawyer with letters to try to get him to communicate with me. So we know this is VERY important to him. He’s leaving for CA to visit his family and I said to him tell them I said “Hello” I could tell by his expression that my “hello” wouldn’t be welcomed. His family, particularly his mother wants us split up and she’s probably going to have a fit that he talked to me. She’ll be working on him this weekend, I’m sure of that. I was thinking of sending him some of the information on this site about EN and relating it to our communication problems. Do you think that is a bad idea or too soon. Tell me what you think. BTW, I tried going to profiles to change my user name and couldn’t do it. Do you know how it is done? Thanks.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LostHusband:<BR><B>Katie,<P>I'm so glad your meeting went well. That was not what I expected at all. Where do you go from here? I don't know. It seems like he's open to the communication and all indications are that he missed you. <P>I say keep up with the no contact for a while. But if he does contact you, go with it. Keep it short sweet and to the point but be polite. Right now he see's that you are doing pretty good without him and that is going to start those gears in his head. Remember YOU CAN'T CHANGE HIM. So continue to work on yourself and see what happens.<P>Hi Bill, it wasn't what I expected either. Thanks for the advice, it sounds good. <P><BR></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Katie Carlson:<BR><B>Hi Mike, Thanks for your support. I said to him about how the air smelled good and he looked at me rather oddly. I had my sunglasses on in the beginning because he had told me before that they looked cool so I made sure I wore them. And I wore a workout outfit and told him I was on the way to the health club. He told me that the health club must be paying off because you look really good (sight). He told me that he was astonished that I was there and even more astonished that I was talking to him while he wore a grin on his face. Then I said that the air smelled really nice tonight and he looked at me kind of strangely. I asked how his ice cream tasted and he said that they made it too cold. I was thinking “Oh bummer,” I wanted that ice cream to be delicious :MAD: He had coffee ice cream; his favorite covered with melted chocolate another favorite. I had vanilla. He smiled and said I had ice cream in my hair – I could tell he thought it looked cute I really played everything up. Then he we talked small talk for a while. I asked him about his job and he went on and on for a while and I mostly listened. I only interjected with supportive statements. I took off my sunglasses so I could establish eye contact and I purposely looked him in the eye a lot, occasionally he shifted his view and sometimes I did too so it didn’t appear to be obvious. He asked my son to throw his napkin away for him and began to talk about OR and our present communication problems. He told me that we were married for fourteen years and he still cared a lot for me. But he also said that he wanted to move on with his life and wanted me to move on with mine. He said that he wants the best for me and I told him that I want the best for him too. He said that he thought a lot about what I said to him on July 4th (we went to fireworks together even though separated) and he thought I had the right idea. On July 4th I told him that if we were going to get divorced that we should try to get along as friends and make it as amicable as possible. He took my hand and clasped it into his and talked to me about OR in relation to our communication problems for a long time. He asked my son to give us a few minutes alone. He said to him, “I haven’t gotten to talk to your mother in a month.” He was in no hurry to leave and when we parted he gave me a hug and a kiss on the forehead. Oh and he told me he spent $1,000 with his lawyer with letters to try to get me to talk to him. So we know this is VERY important to him. But why go through all of this trouble when he doesn't want to be with me? He’s leaving for CA to visit his family and I said to him tell them I said “Hello” I could tell by his expression that my “hello” wouldn’t be welcomed. His family, particularly his mother wants us split up and she’s probably going to have a fit that he talked to me. She’ll be working on him this weekend, I’m sure of that. I was thinking of sending him some of the information on this site about EN and relating it to our communication problems. Do you think that is a bad idea or too soon. Tell me what you think. BTW, I tried going to profiles to change my user name and couldn’t do it. Do you know how it is done? Thanks. </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>

<B>Katie</B> what's the deal with his mother? Why does she dislike you so? I'm also dealing with inlaw issues... only not parents in law - brother and a sister. Oh well.<P>Umm, regarding changing your user name? You need to re-register. Yes, start over. But be sure to let people know in your signature line or somewhere that you used to be called "Katie Carlson" so that people can keep your story straight.<P>Glad to hear you've been taking care of yourself... for me, moving here has had the opposite effect... I haven't had the chance to work out at all - like this Spring it was 4-5 times per week! Yuck... maybe when the boys get into school next week I can start again.<P>Cheers!<BR>Nicole<P>------------------<BR><I>"You will deceive yourself into believing that if people, circumstances, and events had been different, your pain would not exist...Your pain is the concrete way in which you participate in the pain of humanity."</I> <BR>~ Henri Nouwen ~

That's getting more like it. Those sensory modalities apply to the actual conent, as well. You say that he 'went on and on' about his job, and that seems like idle pratter to you, but he gives you clues about his internal filters when he talks. You said the 'air smells nice tonight', and you think it might have fell flat. Well, maybe it did...perhaps he is more visually oriented, ot auditory. That is what paying careful attention to his 'small talk', or chit-chat, will tell you. The wall has holes in it, you have to look for them, and pay attention to them when you find them. I may be wrong, but he said that the ice cream was too cold (which BTW, I find a little amusing on several counts!), so perhaps he is kinesthetic...he likes to feel grounded, or he wants a connection, etc. So, the way, then to establish rapport with him is to match his sensory modality, and repeat what he says once in a while using the same sensory modality. It doesn't pay to try to get him into your reality...at least not right now, you must meet him in his model of the world. I think that you did well, I think I have said that. Your MIL has her LBs that she does to him, too, I am sure that she does not save them for you exclusively. Don't let something that you have no real hope of controlling get you down. Concentrate on that which you have control over, namely how you perceive this trip to his mother's universe. Hey, he left there for a reason, too, you know!<P>Okay, so fix one financial dilemms, or at least move it along in the positive direction...do it AS SOON AS POSSIBLE, so you are ready when he calls...could be today, get busy....strike while the iron is hot...just strike where it does some <B>real good</B>! Take care, I am anxious for your next news. God bless. -Mike

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by OvrCs:<BR><B>Katie</B> what's the deal with his mother? Why does she dislike you so? I'm also dealing with inlaw issues... only not parents in law - brother and a sister. Oh well.<P>Umm, regarding changing your user name? You need to re-register. Yes, start over. But be sure to let people know in your signature line or somewhere that you used to be called "Katie Carlson" so that people can keep your story straight.<P>Glad to hear you've been taking care of yourself... for me, moving here has had the opposite effect... I haven't had the chance to work out at all - like this Spring it was 4-5 times per week! Yuck... maybe when the boys get into school next week I can start again.<P>Cheers!<BR>Nicole<P>Nicole:<P>My MIL is very manipulative and controlling. She is the type that everything has to be her way and on her terms. I was 18 years old when H and I were married and for years I let her dominate. Over the past few years, I started setting boundaries and putting my foot down. She didn't like this at all. To make matters worse, H is mommified BIGTIME. He can say anything he wants about my mother, but don't dare say a word about his. He always takes her side instead of mine even if he knows she is in the wrong. When she comes to visit, she takes over, starts pressuring me what we are having for dinner and when it's going to be ready. She never asks, what time is good for you for her to visit, it's always what time is good for her. She'll come to the house and announce "I'm staying over night" and then stay for two or three days. During that time she takes over my kitchen during the day and ties up my phone line while she works her job out of my house in my kitchen. One of those times, my H couldn't get ahold of me on the phone and guess who got the blame, not mommy, I did. Then last December, H went to Mommy to cry about our marital problems. Mommy said "Oh poor baby" and offered him a place to come and stay. Then when he decided to stay with me instead she had a fit During our first counseling session, she called before, during and after the session. Then she called the following night to ream him out and tell him why he shouldn't work it out. She doesn't want us together and right now H is listening to his mommy - H aunt even told me that he left because he is listening to other people. And the only person I know who would encourage him to do this is his mommy. So this is what I've been dealing with and it has caused major problems in our relationship and H is too blind to see it. He is going to CA this weekend to see his dad (parents are divorced) but guess who he is staying with while he is out there - mommy. Sorry to be so sarcastic, I'm just Bye now. <P><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>

And Mike, you thought I posted politely - so much for those apples

What's amusing about the ice cream, c'mon I'm a big girl, you can tell me.

Well, I mean its ice cream, not liquid oxygen...pretty much all the same temperature give or take 5 degrees. I got the impression that he has 'sensitive teeth'....especially after 'listening' to you tell Nicole about those apron strings that I saw right away early on! -Mike

My apple cart is not that easily upset...plus, I can read between the lines, even in your first post! This is the place to 'tell it like it is', and not to candy coat it at all. If you want this thing to work, stark cold (colder than ice cream, that is! ) reality has to be dealt with successfully.<P>My overall sense of things Katie, is that you feel manipulated into this sort of two way character assassination with your MIL, and your H's lack of integrity is in no small part caused by his internal conflict when it comes to 'choosing sides' here. Yes, he is mama's boy, no doubt. Yes, she seems to be a miserable, bitter b!tc#, I won't even start with you on that ! So, in order to get to where you can even address that issue (you have plenty of ammo, like the Bible to begin with, but that is not going to make any difference now.), you have to establish rapport again, and work on the relationship <B>outside</B> the boundaries imposed by this continuing problem with <B>her</B>. You need to make it a non-factor. You cannot erase what she does, she did after all give birth to him, don't even try to compete there...yet. Be sensible, and do the doable! Plus, like I said, she has her LBs, too. Maximize the effect of the positive things that you bring to his life, and be consistent. You did a wonderful job of giving him pause, keep it up. Do you expect negative things from your interactions with him? Well, so does he. When you show him a better, different interaction, he is naturally curious, and <I>confused</I>.<P>You mention his 'eye-accessing cues', are you familiar with that concept...'he kept looking away', you said, or words to that effect...you can get information about a person's internal programs, and dialog from that, too. Whenever I would pressure my XW about staying, and how I would work it all out, etc...you know the speech I am referring to...its a major LB, her eyes would dart back and forth like a caged animal, trying to escape...what I did not know then, but do know now (and wished I knew then!) is that she was maintaining an internal dialog at that point...side to side eye movement is auditory accessing in most people. I could've switched into auditory mode, and been 'heard' better, plus the fact that I picked up on her internal dialog might've meant something to her. Would it have been monumentally successful? I don't know, what it would have done was allow me to build this bridge <B>slowly</B>, and not try to 'fix it all' at once, like I tried to! You began your bridge today, IMHO...but build it slowly, and solidly. Your MIL cannot destroy that which you built, but you can, and you will be certain that she did it! (It will be your reaction to her that does it...be very wary of your reactions to her in this! Very wary!) -Mike

Mike, Thanks for the MIL tips, I need all that I can get. You also said about his eye movements, if you know about this, tell me more about it. One of the problems I noticed is frequently when I talk to him, he doesn't look me in the eye, he only looks me in the eye when he is talking to me. Not to say he never looks me in the eye when I'm speaking but he doesn't maintain eye contact, he frequently looks away. I'll have to watch his eye movements more closely. When we were together, I always got offended by this because I felt that he wasn't listening or paying attention to me and sometimes, quite frankly he wasn't but in general there is more to it than that. He is dyslexic, could that have anything to do with it? I was thinking of sending him some of the information on this site about EN and relating it to our communication problems. Do you think that is a bad idea or too soon. See ya.

Well done Katie,<P>Now all you have to do is keep up thed Plan A, and you will be giving it your best shot. Follow all the good advice you have been getting here, and DO try to keep MIL out of your mind...in the big picture she doesn't matter, though I know it's hard to ignore. My MIL WAS difficult, but she has mellowed a lot.<P>MIKE: You talk about eye movements...I am also curious about the stare...like when I told H I was going back to Oz, he just stood there staring at me, not saying anything. Does that mean he was in shock, his brain stopped working, he was hiding any emotion he might be feeling....what??? I'd appreciate you telling me...and sorry for asking this in your post Katie, but it's a relevant question here!!!

I should probably go pee somewhere inappropriate first to get my mind 'working right', but I have to get Samuel ready for school, and need those grey cells working properly...sorry. Okay, Jacky, that particular one seems like 'plan not working...must think...oohh, look at her a$$...what was Hulk thinking about?'. Yes, he did not think then about it...maybe when he did the physical breakdown, he was thinking.....at the moment...probably stark disbelief...he's reeling right now, to be sure.<P>Okay, the eye accessing cues are a bit complex...no time right now. You can't mind read with them per se, only they are a clue to HOW they are thinking, not necessarily WHAT they are thinking...useful nonetheless...more later. -Mike

Thanks for responding Nina and it's okay that you expanded upon my question in the above post - we're both curious about this. As far as the MIL, I was thinking about EN and she must provide my H with alot of them. That is something I should keep in mind.

Mike, I'm sorry but I didn't get a thing you said in the first paragraph of your last post...maybe cause you just woke up???

Ah, Katie, you're getting it now!!! Yes, she probably did, but some of them are not appropriate for a wife...you don't want to treat him like a little boy. But a hard as it may seem, you need to look at how she treats him generally and respond to that. I did this, and it helped a lot for a time, he adores his mother. I also told him i would like to be like his mum, and I do. She has such a full life, and is a really happy person, is always bubbly, etc, etc...no wonder I didn't measure up. SORRY, I put myself down cos I have had yet another bad day.<P>One thing I know is that there was a difference between the extent of physical behaviour in our families. His would be very warm and welcoming when they saw you, hugs, kisses. Mine are much more reserved. I had to work on greeting him each day with a hug, kiss and smile. It was just something that I didn't do, bnecause it had never been done for me.<P>Anyway, Mike are you going to post that info in a separate thread? Others may find it interesting, too.<P><BR>

Nina, you just brought up something very interesting and important. My MIL always hugs and kisses us a lot. As much as I get at her, she does have some good ways. My MIL is also very independent, active, she works out and lifts weights. I've been working out too and that is what he commented that he liked. My MIL doesn't like to dwell on conversation or deal with things and she tends to ignore problems and hope they magically disappear. My husband is like that to. He litterally runs away from problems, that is why he left me. This is where I differ greatly from my H and MIL. I like to discuss things and work on them until they are solved. So this is a trait, I don't think I can copy. As far as the hugs, even though my H gave me a hug last night, I'm afraid to initiate it for two reasons. <BR>1). I don't want him to get the wrong idea and scare him away.<BR>2). I know this sounds old-fashioned but it's my belief that the man needs to pursue the woman. I know I'm probably going to get some flack about this but I just feel that if the man isn't head over heels, it's not going to work. The other reason is I think that it makes the man respect the woman more. And ironically, when I stopped contact and made my H pursue me, he respects me for it. Another difference between my MIL and me is that she is a very forward, pushy person but I don't think that is a quality my H likes, he says that his mother often embarrasses :0 him by being a know it all and pushy on making her points.