Hi,<P>Feeling really bad. <P>About a half hour before H was due, his mum phoned me. She said she had just spoken to him, wanted to know how I was. I asked her if he'd said anything, he apparently said nothing's changed. REALLY got me down, there I go again, expecting SOMETHING after last Sunday's monumental performance. So today I went from, I'm gonna LB, to NO WAY am I gonna LB to, what's the use? to just keep out of his way. By the time he got here I was churning inside, very, very low, nervous, anxious, depressed and really p****d off with my life. I should have gone out, I see that now, and if I feel like this again, I'm going to be away when he comes. So I guess I learned another lesson.<P>I didn't LB about the OW or the list. He came, he was nice enough, but wall up again. I had one of his favourite meals cooking. He was supposed to take the kids this weekend but more feeble excuses why not....this just made me sick. But I kept THAT in too, I just said, well I didn't tell them, so they won't be disappointed.<P>He stayed for half a bloody hour, played and talked with kids for nearly all of that, and some bills with me.<P>So far so good...I had had to leave the room several times because I wanted to LB, but I held it in.<P>BUT, when he was leaving I asked him to come back later for dinner. He said (dogfaced expression) no. I then said, well you've only seen the kids for half an hour, and I thought it would be nice....gives me all sorts of excuses why not.<P>I then said, "You know we have to talk about what's happening (me going back to Oz)". He said "Yeah I know". I told him I thought he'd been avoiding that and he said no he wasn't and "Maybe it's time to talk now." So Mr Social Butterfly can't talk to me until next Thursday.<P>I decided to try something I read over in GQII the other day about saying to him "Please go and find that lovely man I married who loved his family, and bring him home to me." He said "I've been trying." Someone over there said it worked for her...I thought anything's worth a try. So I said it. Trouble is you're supposed to say it without crying....I cried. I apologised. I also told him we loved him and missed him. He said, "Do you think there's nothing left in me? (he meant no love for me...so he admits he feels something?)" I said that I knew there was that wonderful man in there still, and please would he find him for us. He just stood there, not saying yes or no, then said gotta go. Off he went. <P>So now I'm a crazy wreck again....I just don't think I can do this any more.

Nina... it's okay. I mean you spoke from your heart. He has to see what consequences his behavior are having. As long as you don't punish him... I'm encouraged by the fact that he replied "I'm trying" to your request to find himself AND come home. He's trying... keep praying for him and keep working on you. It's hard, but ya gotta do it. What's the alternative, to give up and go home? You can do it! I'm afraid I'm sounding too performance oriented and that is not my intent... we are here to help you hold yourself up while you face this devastating time. Keep posting. You did GREAT last week and this week you feel weak... welcome to the roller coaster ride of infidelity! YOU can do it... hang in there! <P>Nicole<P>------------------<BR><I>"You will deceive yourself into believing that if people, circumstances, and events had been different, your pain would not exist...Your pain is the concrete way in which you participate in the pain of humanity."</I> <BR>~ Henri Nouwen ~

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Nina too:<BR><B>So now I'm a crazy wreck again....I just don't think I can do this any more.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>((((((((((((((JACKY)))))))))))))))<P>In my darkest hours some very special friends on this board pulled me through and we are here to do the same for you. So please lean on us during these times and be accepting to all of our love.<P>Hugs, Thoughts, & Prayers from the Wild Wild West<P>

(crying)<P>I was going to tell you two that you don't know how much it means to me to get those cyber arms around me right now, but you DO know. Thanks...

{{{{{{{{{{{{{{jackie}}}}}}}}}}}}<BR>{{{{{{{{{{{{{{nina too}}}}}}}}}}}}<P>You know, there is another good comment I found here on MB, that applies to a woman:<P>"Hey I can play the OW role just as well as she can, and even better since i know him better. . . ."<P>Although you are not the OW type, can you play an other woman?<P>Also, if you read poasts from lostva, while her H was living away with other woman, she just did nice little things, and then left, she knew what he liked, did it, and then left.<P>She used to give h a hug goodbye, an "I love you," in the ear, and would turn or walk away. (lori, if you want to reiterate better, be my guest!)<P>I other words, she played a hot cold game, expose her self intimately, then leave. left him hanging.<P>finally, <B> why do you feel you have to talk about going back to oz? </B><P>you don't have to talk about it. <B> DON'T FORCE IT!!!!! </B> when he is ready, he will talk. otherwise, you are being pushy, pushy, pushy, making him have to decide.<P>When a WS is on the fence, the person that does the least LB to him, whatever that is, is the winner. . . . the fog just doesn't have any love busters untilit clears, or until LB's clear it.<P>Hey, just suppose she is perfect for him? it could be that, really truly, it does happen once in a while, it just means the affair is about him, not you, just do the best you can with the dance, and don't force conversation!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!<P>think about what he has responded to positively, and act accordingly.<P>good luck<P>WIFTTy

Hi Nina, I saw in my post that you said you were having a bad day so I thought I'd go to your post to see what it was all about. I'm really sorry to hear that. One of the things I remember about from Stop Your Divorce is "don't get other people to try to talk to him." You said your mother talked to him and I take it that you didn't set it up that way but if your mother is trying to patch things up for you, it may not be a good idea. I don't know for sure if that's how it went but keep that point in mind. Also, you may want to check out Michele's Forum and read the book "Divorce Buster." Are you familiar with these? They talk about doing 180's and the last resort technique. I don't know how long this has been going on with you or your entire story but it might be time to move to plan B. How long have you been implementing plan A? <P> It sounds like he's aware that the house is a safe and happy place for him. You said, “"Please go and find that lovely man I married who loved his family, and bring him home to me." He said "I've been trying."” – His response is a good indication that he is wrestling with his thoughts and his conscience. This could be a good opportunity for you to seize the day. <P>Saying that we need to talk about going back to Oz may be a little too much pressure for him. I really think it sounds like you need to withdraw from him. If he’s at the point where he is “trying” then gives him an incentive. Make him feel like he could lose you. If he feels safe and secure that you’re going to be there no matter what, he has no motivation to change his behavior. There are no consequences for his behavior. Right now, he’s got options and he’s having his cake and eating it too! <P>Have you ever read the book called boundaries by Dr. Henry Cloud? Order it or pick it up from the library and look up in the index, there are several pages on consequences. Now don’t’ take the boundaries book to extreme because if taken too far, it’s absolute Lb ing. Take bits and pieces from here and there and keep everything in perspective. <P>You also said that you were crying. This is another good reason for you to distance yourself from him. I was an emotional basket case when me and my husband were having a lot of contact but when I stopped talking to him for a month and began working on myself, facing him wasn’t so difficult. I admit that I did cry afterwards buy I held my composure in front of him. I was happy, upbeat, and acted as if life were going on just fine without him – another tip from Stop Your Divorce. The other thing the book talks about is instead of trying to pull him back, agree with him on his decisions to pull away. You might want to get that book. You don’t have to do everything it says but some of it could help you a lot. <P>If you are still crying a lot, I recommend asking your doctor for an antidepressant. Are you sleeping okay? Also, I started taking St. Johns Wort every morning and sometimes in the afternoon for my mood. It helps! <P>You had said that you didn’t believe in making him jealous. A suggestion I read on Michele’s Forum recommended leave subtle hints that could leave him guessing. For example, if he calls you in the evening, lets say between the hours of 5-8pm, say I’m just ready to leave to go out to dinner and say you have to go – and go out anywhere, even just food shopping and don’t get back to him for 3-4 hours or at all – let him call you. You may also want to stop calling him altogether, if you haven’t already and let him pursue you. <P>I think you need to withdraw from him. It sounds like you have shown him that you love him and demonstrated that the house is a happy place. It also sounds like he still cares for you and has pondered the thought of coming home. Give him a little push and motivation. Oh, and my H just called, see my post. Bye<BR>

I can't play the OW cos I can't even touch him. Last Sunday he gave me a hug or two, and a pat on the arm as he left. I really think he'd reject me...oh I can flirt like I did on Sunday, but thanks to the phone call from his mum, I just lost all determination.<P>When I told him I loved him, he said he wished I hated him.<P>I feel that we have to talk about Oz to make it more real for HIM...I have set the wheels in motion (got my folks enrolling the kids in schools) but I haven't booked tickets. I am on a time frame thanks to him and school terms and Christmas coming up means I may not be able to just hang around anyway...I HAVE to leave this country when he does in January anyway....if it is up to him, he'd just leave it till the last minute and then it's all a rush, in my hands and completely horrible.<P>I DON'T WANT TO GO...but I know I don't have a choice unless we reconcile. It is beginning to be unbearable to just look at him...I'm getting that "Get out of here or I AM gonna hate him feeling." I am resentful and angry that this had been pushed on me. He asked me once why I thought I'd be doing better if we were in Oz, I said, at least I wouldn't feel like I was being forced to go, if I did it would be my own choice.<P>I am starting to find it really hard to cope with the kids, and every time I've hugged them today I've cried. I feel like that isn't good for them, and I ask myself why am I crying? Because of another fruitless interaction with H...so don't interact with him, and you'll get by.<P>This IS unbearable, and I am fully prepared for him to say he still doesn't want me....in that case I will go ahead and book tickets as fast as I can and get out. That's how I feel. I have fought with everything I've got for the last eight months, PlanA'd for 6 months before he left, and it hasn't been good enough. IT ISN'T GETTING BETTER. I'm sick of feeling like that. So it's time...

Nina, I see that you are very upset and you are letting your emotions run away with you. And from what you are saying, it's got to be obvious to him. That's not good. Get ahold of yourself. I think that not only are you upset about your husband not wanting to come home, having to go to Oz is making it more difficult. I think you should change your strategy. I think you need to go to No Contact. Will you have an opportunity to see him once you go to Oz? How will he see the kids? Can you postpone your trip to Oz to give things more time for you to try a different strategy? You said you've been doing plan A for 8 months, i think you may need to try either the no contact, a 180 or the last resort. See Michele's Forum Web site and read my previous post. Stop telling him that you want him back. I know this is hard to do but it's not working. He knows that you can provide comfort for him now he has to know that there is a possibility that that comfort won't always be there. Also, if you have to leave for Oz in the next few days. Don't show him how upset you are. Make it to him like you are happy about getting on with your life. I know how it is because I felt that way a month ago and if I had to move, I'd be upset too. I really think this move is dragging you down. You have to be upbeat in front of him no matter how bad you feel. Try not to cry in front of the kids, I know it's hard but it will get back to him. You have to make him feel that you are perfectly fine with the way things are, even though you are not. You've given him every opportunity now it's time to shift gears. I also recommend that you start working out and get yourself involved in some type of physical activity - believe me - it helps. I wish you luck and after you go to Oz, please keep us posted. I'll keep you in my prayers. <BR>Best Wishes.<BR>Katie.

Jacky:<P>I am sorry you are so sad. I think it is time for one of those things we do to pick our selves up. I took the day off and I have worked out, made a lasagna and cleaned house. I know it sound like a drag, but it made me happy. <P>As happy as I can be right now and it took my mind of my life from hell. Please try it okay.<P>I am not at work today, so I did not get your email yet. I will tomorrow and we can chat. Also, I want to walk you through getting an AOL instant buddy name for yourself, so we can chat live okay?<P>Michelle

Jackie<P>OK, so you are at the end of your rope. . . .<P>This rollercoaster is very difficult, and remember, it is all totally normal. OK, you mentioned a letter.<P>My suggestion is that if its a plan B letter, then you implement Plan B and give him the letter. You should have the letter approved by PLAN B's with experience. If you are going into plan B, that means you are not around to swap off kids with the H, and at other transition times. You only take his calls about children, schedules, and if he starts to talk about anything else, you leave.<P>However, you must give him a list of requirements for reconciling. BTW, the OW act is not just physical, its also emotional. its not all about sex, its about emotional needs. <P>Also, the type of anti depresants and the dose must but looked at, and maybe changed?<P>ALSO, if H does not talk to his folks, its not your problem, its his. You do not have to make him and its up to him. Remember, you are only responsible foryourself, and at this point in time you cannot take any more responsibility than what your immediate goals are, and with the kids. If his mum called, any questions about his whereabouts, well being, etc, needs to be referred to him. Do not be an intermediary for him, especially with his family, they will love their son no matter what he does, not the same as with you.<P>So, be polite, and say they will have to talk to him.<P>OK, so, how long will it take for you to get all packed and be on the plane? why not get the ticket now, and have on the refridgerator, a list of items to finish, and a question at the bottom:<P><B> Has anything changed yet?? </B><P>and its not the end of the world, just a huge inconvenience, and it will get better once you have finished your ACTIONS, your words are getting in your way right now. Stick with your actions.<P>good luck<BR>WIFTTy<BR>

Don't beat yourself up over this- nobody's perfect. What's important about a backslide is that you learn something from it, like:<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I should have gone out, I see that now, and if I feel like this again, I'm going to be away when he comes. So I guess I learned another lesson.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I agree WIFTT that you don't need to talk much about returning to Australia now- you've told him, you've given him a date, and he knows you mean it. You should continue with whatever plans that involves, but you don't have to keep taking his (or your) temperature on it.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>So now I'm a crazy wreck again....I just don't think I can do this any more.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Well, you've got people on at least three continents sending you positive vibes- let them soak in an support you.<P>

Guys,<P>If I seem a little more upbeat it's cos I'm sitting here with a glass of red. Just one, or maybe two, I'm not crazy - booze and anti-d's don't mix. But it's helping a bit.<P>Katie,<P>You're right I need distance...I'm just not wanting to go back to Oz by myself and start single parent life, knowing full well what he's up to here. I literally have to start again, I have no house, no car, no money in my name, no job, basic furniture but not all the expensive stuff like washers etc, and no h. What a future. <P>I have not asked him to come home ONCE before today..I did not even beg him to stay, and I knew two weeks before he left. Yes, last Thursday I asked him to think carefully about what he is doing. I have not begged him; I wouldn't even consider the words I used today begging...and they did turn a cog in his head...I could tell by the look in his eyes and the "I'm trying". <P>That's the first time he has ever admitted that he IS still trying to work this out in his mind. He wishes I hated him because it would (he thinks) make it easier for him. Well, don't tell him, but today I DO hate him, for all the hurt, anguish and jealousy and all the rest he has put me through. I am obviously at the lowest point on the roller-coaster. I'm going to keep away from him when he picks up the kids for a while...see if he notices, but more for ME. I cannot go like this every time I see him, it WILL drive him away. So I will take your advice..Boy, you've learned a lot since you've been here!!!<P>Michelle,<P>Hey girl, you're not an Aries are you? My friend who's into all that tells me Aries are having a really hard year...NO S#!T !!!<P>We have MSN Instant messenger service on our pc (soon to be MY pc when I go to OZ, I'm not leaving without it.) Is that the same thing as you're talking about? It will be great to chat online. You and I both have bad times now, boy all of us here must have been really wicked in our past lives - bet it was more fun than this . <P>You're right about the pick-me-up idea. It's getting late here, but I am going to start walking again tomorrow (5k's a day), play my piano and SING. Funny thing about my piano,; I've hardly practised at all, but my teacher says I'm improving, and I know I am playing better. How can that be, with all this going on?? Just a thought! <P>I might even have a bath in the middle of the day.<P>You know, I sometimes get "feelings" about things. Blame it on my Celtic ancestry. Betcha he calls me in the next day or two to talk about this on the phone (because he has trouble saying anything to my face).<P>I'll look forward to hearing from you tomorrow. H is away now right...you should have a nice hot bath yourself, when you get home!<P>Take care,<P>Jacky<P>

{{{{{{{{{{Jacky}}}}}}}}}}<P>I like Katie's idea of going to <A HREF="http://www.weiner-davis.com" TARGET=_blank>Divorce Busters</A> mostly so you can meet Mick. He is an Aussie, and a kick in the head, to boot. He is wise, and knows his stuff pretty well. On that board, they talk about a process called 'Slowlee Catchee Monkee', which describes what you are doing well.<P>You are basing how you feel on what you expect from him. Not a receipe for happiness, especially considering his current state of mind. If you are certain that you will fail, then fail you shall.<P>When you ask questions, there is always an expectation with that...think before you speak as much as possible. It is the 'unspoken' things that will make, or break this now. All of the deeds are essentially done. What is important is that you do not fit the model of you that he is expecting, the one he has cast you in, the one you are playing into when you pressure him for answers...at this point in time, you will not like the answer that he has, so work on the real problem, which is he feels 'uninspired' to stay. Yes, you have turned his head, but that is all. Now you must do the equivalent of keep it turned, and showing him something. I guess that I forgot to tell you that this will take every ounce of patience and strength you can muster <B>all of the time</B>, and then whatever you can scrounge for, as well. My bad. <P>I also agree that you have taken this to the rail in terms of what it means. Actually, it is <B>quite</B> possible that <B>he</B> feels like he is 'blowing it', too. You do not have the market cornered on pain in your marriage, and you must realize that he wants it to work, too. Selfishness is a very evil thing because it makes us do things that are ultimately not in our best interests. This is the truth we are trying to show our WSs. They are hurting us, and pushing us away because they are in a selfish state. Their goals do not pass those ecology checks, and they are destined to fail. We have control somewhat on how much they will pay in the end. Jacky, he has already done the worst thing imaginable to you...he has rejected you. You are able to forgive him for it, if he'd only stop doing it. You want that yesterday, I know. Patience...patience...patience. Take it nice and easy. Breathe. Relax, and let go of it for a while. Hold things too close, and they will bind you up.<P>If your goal is to reconcile with him, then you cannot allow him to get you this out of sorts. You are doing something that is against your beliefs, or he is threatening a goal of yours. When you asked him to come for dinner, had you intended to talk about the move (aside from him saying, 'I want you to stay', that is), or were you hoping to move your agenda along? Yes, you had something positive like that in mind...I'm with you, here. By saying no, he really threw a monkey wrench into your plan didn't he? Actually, no...you just need to be Gumby, and flexible, and well, a little deceptive, underhanded, calculating, etc. In other words, Jacky...if he gives you lemons, they make the lemonade already! How so? Well, you could've just rolled with it, or not put the pressure on with the kids...I know this technique that you want to use, and it works wonders when the relationship is working, although it is a LB even then...but you know that that one is broken beyond all recognition right now. Part of being successful in anything is finding out what does not work, and then not doing that. You know what kind of thing works, now, too. Another key to success is in doing the things that do work more.<P>You need to write a new scene in order to get better at it. Rewrite what happened today, but change some things. Okay, Bill is an a$$-man...That means that he is capable of visual stimulation in general. You are working on his sense of smell, good...were you wearing the perfume? And I'm still waiting to hear about those new jeans, are you using everything all the time? He may have been tipped off this time...are you keeping that 'little bit of mystery'? Please listen to Tom Petty, here...Shadow Of A Doubt (Complex Kid). You be the woman in that song, Jacky, and he will knock little old ladies out of his way running back to you, <B>but</B> it takes time, and effort. You have made the ultimatum, and you feel trapped by it. You might have to go back to Australia for this to work. That might have to happen. Do not fear the unknown, and do not take any meaning at all from what going to Oz means, other than you will get to spend more time with your parents (good thing), and the kids get to keep in touch with who they are (which I assume is simply expatriated Aussies, too...am I wrong there?). I know that you and your H have placed a meaning on it, but that is not valid...step back and look at it in the third person, here...meanings change, and things, and people, too. Remember your failure in the cave....Oh, I'm sorry, I was thinking of a young Jedi I once trained <P>The world is not flat, although yours seems so. Hang in there, Jacky..you are a rare, and wonderful woman, and wonderful things will happen to you. Pass through this pain with grace, and what you want will be yours forever. -Mike

Wiffty and dabigtrain,<P>I didn't see your posts.<P>Wiffty you obviously are stronger than I feel right now...I am all out of performances for one week. The letter I referred to was a Plan A letter, loving stuff without any LB's or begging or stuff like that...rememberances mostly. I haven't sent it yet. I was recommended to send it once I got to Oz. But when I go to Oz, isn't that Plan B? So shouldn't I send a Plan B letter? Mind you, it isn't my choice to go, so maybe it isn't Plan B..tho the fleeing instinct is strong tonight.<P>I know the OW has a physical AND emotional hold on him.<P>The in-laws are really very good, they mostly ask about me and the kids.<P>The anti-d's - I spoke to the doctor on Tuesday and she said I haven't been taking them long enough to decide they're not working. It's been 8 weeks now.<P>dabigtrain - you are right, I know....so now what to I tell him about our planned discussion for next Thursday? Hey I don't want to talk now...what without it sounding weak OR controlling?<P>Thanks guys.

((((((((((((JACKY))))))))))))))<P>I noticed you're still posting. Didn't drink too much of that wine did you? Isn't it getting late there??<P>Take care of yourself, hun, and we'll talk at you tomorrow.<P>------------------<BR>Love, Bill<P>-There are none so blind as those who refuse to see!-<BR>-Stand up and do the right thing, even if your standing alone.-

It is late, Bill, 11.30pm, but I can't sleep yet. No I had two glasses, so I'm controlling myself.<P>Thanks for looking in on me...still very down, still very disillusioned and hurt. I know I'll get there again, cos every time (gee, twice now in six weeks) I allow my emotions to rule, it's a bad ending. Yet, aren't we supposed to FEEL? And I know this Plan A is about their needs, but he**, we have some too. <P>I don't call him or email him unless it's necessary. I don't infringe on his space. I don't even know where he is living. And all that's doing is letting him keep away from us. I said to him the other day, "You are distancing yourself from the kids"...he said "I know." <P>It is absolutely killing the kids right now, and how will he know that if I don't mention he needs to spend more time with them, for their sake. He thinks they're okay, cos every time they see him they are so happy...it's when he goes that it is a problem.<P>I just want it to be six months into the future right now.

((((((({{{{{{{[[[[[[Jacky]]]]]]}}}}})))))))<P><BR>I know the feelings with the kids, I had to and am still telling my x that she needs to spend time with them. All I can say there is take care of those young ones. One thing about children is they are extremely resilant creatures and they will heal long before you and I.<P>As for Ms. Jacky, take care of yourself darlin and if at all possible give your mind a break from these harsh realities for a while. Don't worry all your problems will be there when you come back. One thing that I'm learning is there is no reason to worry about that which I cannot control. I can't pay all my bills, it's a fact and I ain't worring about it. My x is living in "fog" land, I can't change that so it's useless to worry about it....<P>Look to the heaven's and see the glorious picture that He has painted before you and them give Him that which you can't control..<P>Good night, sleep tight, don't let the bed bug's bite.<P>------------------<BR>Love, Bill<P>-There are none so blind as those who refuse to see!-<BR>-Stand up and do the right thing, even if your standing alone.-

Jacky,<P>Just thinking of you. While praying tonight for my fellow MB cohorts, God placed a song on my heart for you and for CJ. We are all struggling with some major life changing decisions. The song is Be Strong by the Martins, a southern gospel group here. I typed the words on Jacky's "counseling went terrible" thread. <P>Get some rest and take care. God Bless, Lynn<P>

Thanks again guys for being there yesterday for me. It had become harder for me to rely on my support person here because she is friends with the OW. And it's not that I don't trust this friend, I just don't want her put in an extremely awkward position. So now I have only one person here I can talk to, who I don't see regularly, and you guys.<P>I eventually slept, but my girls decided to come in for cuddles at about 5am. WIDE awake, they were, no hope of putting them back to bed. So we had a doze in my bed, and lots of hugs and love, and it gave me some strength. I realised how much I missed H's morning hugs, though. <P>My mind is in turmoil, and I wish it was easy to just shut things out but I can't do it all the time. It is hurting me that I can't even touch the man, and to see his face...well yesterday he gave me about three "I'm sorry" smiles, you know, sad eyes and one corner of the mouth up. but he isn't sorry enough. If he was he would dump the OW and come home to his family.<P>He is going to lose us and he doesn't care...and I'm beginning to not care, too. It seems like it would be easier not to.<P>Anyway, thanks for the hugs, wish they were real.<P>PP, Ihave been thinking of you...everything settling down a bit? Thanks for the song, I'll cut and paste it into word, and look at it from time to time.<P>Jacky

How is it going today? <P><BR>Thinking about you!!!<P>Michelle