Today I was thinking about my marriage. How it got to this point, and how I felt about that. I had a pretty good look at myself, and him, too, without the rose coloured glasses...which have been pretty much on a lot since he left.<P>It suddenly went through my head "Why on earth would anyone want a marriage like that?" I felt like I was HIM, cos he's always looked negatively on us...well since last November that I knew of. But look, it wasn't THAT bad; there were things about his behaviour that really, really hurt me. I pushed it aside most of the time, and eventually he did change some things.<P>But I was reading another thread last night, before everything bombed out here, and I also realised that I have been incredibly stupid in the past. VERY stupid...because I am pretty sure he had at least two other sexual encounters before we were married, though living together, and I suspected another couple as well. I asked him, he denied it and I believed him. Because I loved him with all my heart and never thought he would do it. There was physical evidence of the two affairs, you see, I got a STD (but I didn't KNOW it was classed as such until I read it on the net last year), I also got pubic lice...he says he caught them from a toilet seat, possible, but I don't think so now. <P>He swore to me after the first OW that he had NEVER done this to me before...I kept asking, see, it was on my mind from time to time and came into the foreground again when A1 happened.<P>So now I think he is only telling the truth when he says he has never loved me, our whole marriage was a sham, and I feel like a piece of s*** right now.<P>No wonder he treated me like I was stupid sometimes...I really was.

Hi Nina too.<P>There is a big difference between stupid and trusting. Within the bounds of your relationship at that time it was GOOD to be trusting. Also Love is Blind. Sometimes I thinks I don't want to be with H anymore and things haven't been as hard for me as it seems to be for you.<P>Do you still love him? Do you really believe him when he says he never loved you? I don't know you at all but everyone deserves better than that. I don't know much about your situation and I'm probably not a good person to give opinions at the moment because I am in a serious stage of doubt as to whether its really all worth it to stay married. I am constantly amazed by the ability of many people here (yourself included) who are still able to keep working at it. It seems to me that you need to consider what YOU WANT. No wonder you're having doubts. <P>I'd like to know how you've stuck things out so far - I could do with some inspiration! And if the answer is that you love him, how do you KNOW after everything that's happened?

Nina,<BR>WOW, seems you are making some progress lately. I, too, am at the point of asking the VERY same questions. I is kind of liberating isnt it? I think that the time apart really gives us a chance to look at ourselves with and without the rose-colored glasses and look deep inside at what we are made of, our role in the debacle and make the necessary changes. I think perhaps sometimes this all goes back to our fantasy of marriage - that it is perfect, wonderful and always blissful. Of course we all WANT that, but the reality of it is that those kinds of marriages just dont exist. We have two imperfect people joined together who must make sacrifices and deal with many things others dont. Love, or our definition of love, further complicates matters. The adultery of course is the killer. Perhaps if we all understood and accepted what mature love truly is and loved that way many, many, marriages would not be in the shape they are. Love alone cannot hold up a marriage. If you ask any one who has been married for life, they will tell you that hard work AND love are what make marriages last and affairs no existent. I, like you, am asking the same questions. I know that you are on the right track Nina, keep on keeping on! Your freedom to be the best with or without your husband is just around the corner!

Hi Nina<BR> You certainly are not stupid, you have made great proggress here and you are taking care of yourself. It is good that you are asking these question and looking at your relationship this way it is part of the healing. I am sure he loved you alot, he wouldn't have married you if he didn't. I don't know if he still loves you now, but your marriage wasn't a sham, I am sure there were many good times and you have children which I know are a blessing for you. I to asked myself these questions and still do, I realize that she went in a deep fog and the A became and addiction, I also realize that she loved me and I loved her, but it is not the kind of love that was healthy for me, she hurt me over the years and I hurt her. I shoved things aside thinking it will get better and somethings I though were just apart of marriage or just the way she was. I realize now I didn't have to live that way and deserved better. Keep moving forwad Nina and take life oneday at a time you are a wonderful person.<P>

Biddy - "Do you still love him? Do you really believe him when he says he never loved you?"<P>I have always said here that I didn't believe him when he said that. It's just today, things all seemed to point to that, the way he treated me, A's etc. And I just don't think I do love him right this minute...the guy walking around with his skin on is one I don't even know, so how can I love him?<P>Biddy - "I am constantly amazed by the ability of many people here (yourself included) who are still able to keep working at it."<P>I'm losing that ability fast, starting to feel like if I have to do all the work here, why bother? What kept me going was love and hope and the belief that I could be the best me there is, but to him, there are deeply ingrained thoughts about what he thinks of me as a person. I realised that today, and I don't see how I can change those ideas...apparently he's had them for a lot longer than I thought...He did tell me that, but I didn't believe him.<P>RobC, thanks for your encouraging words...it sure doesn't feel like progress, though. My heart is really aching again, and I just feel like I had gotten over the major hurts.<P>Hard work and love make a good marriage...he told me he didn't want to have to work at it all the time...couldn't see it was necessary. Not mature love for him.<P>I am getting things organised here...my dad bought a car on my behalf today, I'll have it soon if it passes the mechanic's fine tooth comb. I applied for family payment and government handouts today (HATED doing that - I have never, ever taken money from the govt. before...so degrading.)<P>The more things I do I am aware it is one more step away from him. Maybe my sub-conscious is trying to help me get the idea that this is a good thing?<P>Got that rotten lump in my throat again all day.<P>

Thank you so much jabber, <P>I needed that pep talk.<P>I feel bad that it has happened to so many of us. Hey we can't ALL have made bad choices in the beginning, right?<P>Take care.

Nina,<P>Just remember that there have been so many changes in your life right now. You will more than likely go thru times where you don't want him and then you do. It's a huge roller coaster!! You'll have days that you're happy without him and then days that you're miserable. It's all part of the process of grieving and healing.<P>Take care,<BR>Mitzi

Mitzi,<P>Thanks for pointing that out to me...in the midst of all the pain, I did forget about the rollercoaster. I hate that thing....it's a monster ride...there's a train in one of Stephen King's books that has a life of its own. I guess our rollercoasters do too.<P>I suppose much of my grief is coming from all the realisations I had about the situation, but it is also for my loss. I truly think that if he died, I would feel as much grief. It's like he has died. I don't see him now, because he's in another country, and he has so far called twice a week only for the kids' sake. <P>I think today, my marriage died a little bit more for me.<P>

Nina,<P>You are by far not the stupid one here. He's the fool. He may have done you a big favor. The way he is going he may get some incureable sexual disease and you won't be around to catch it.<P>I think he loved you, as much as he could love anyone. He is so in love with himself that loving someone else, to him, might take too much away from him. Is there a possibility he may have a sexual addiction? If he does then until he recognizes his addiction and gets help, no matter who is with, he will cheat on them. <P>Nina, I hope I am not making you more angry than less. You deserve so much better than him. Do you really want this man who cheats and lies to you? Will you be happy if you got back with him? Would the cheating stop? If he returns ask this. Will he give you what you need in your marriage or just take what he needs? I think you deserve the very best and he is not it. I think you deserve a man who will love every inch of you.<P>Just remember in all this you can hold your head high.<P>Take Care,<BR>ANNA<P>P.S. When are they gonna fix the site? It is still so dang slow!!! GEEEZ<P>

Anna,<P>No is the answer to all your questions tonight. No at the moment I don't want him back. At the moment I wouldn't be happy to get back with him because of all the secrets he is still keeping from me, and to go back on a new footing, he would have to tell me everything, painful as that would be. And I don't think the cheating would stop, unless he is truly repentant, which I don't think he is...y'know WS fogese...I made him do it, etc.<P>I think I know the reason for the cheating, and believe me I don't think it's a good enough one.<P>When he met me, he had only had one other sexual encounter, which failed...couldn't do the task. I, on the other hand had had six partners before him, but I told him of only three, and always felt guilty about it, but the other three were people he knew, (good friends, but I didn't even know my H at the time) and I didn't feel comfortable sharing that with him.<P><BR>I think, looking back, he needed to play the field because he wasn't confident that he was the great lover I always told him he was. And I was in a position to know. I think he maybe wanted to have the experience with others for that reason...maybe he felt less of a man because he had less partners than his wife.<P>I say again...this is NO excuse. No-one should ever cheat on someone else, and that I am sure he did it (now, not then) before he married me, makes it worse. He could have said to himself back then, if he was honourable, well I am cheating on this girl, I must not love her enough to spend the rest of my life with her. <P>Yes this thing is SNAIL slow the last 24 hours....I think I will write to the mediator again. What if we all do it then they might do something. There's a lot of people out there, including me, who rely on a lot of help from here...and I can see them being as frustrated and sad as I am that I can't get through tonight very much.<BR>

Jacky, Jacky, Jacky,<P>yes, you are on the DOWN part of the roller coaster. Hold on tightly as there is a wild turn at the end!<P>However, you need to re align your view of your situation:<P>you are not stupid, you are now infinitely more educated about human relationships and personality types and family of origin values. Look at your healing as LEARNING about psychology that you didn't have courses about before this event. Take the opportunity to learn about where YOU came from, how YOUR values were instilled, and why YOU found him appealing. That learning will help you not make the same mistake again, for reasons that the same types of people appear attractive, and yet they bring with them similar problems.<P>I hate handouts, my dad describes me as a rugged individual.<BR>My X loves handouts and free stuff, no energy has to be expended, and you can always then say you have done it.<P>Now, if you white lied to boost his confidence, you built yourself a house of cards. . . think about your emotional honesty, and what you really accomplished by propping up a low self esteem person? If you got distracted or he got a better propper, your relationship was history. . . .<P>Therefore, you need to review the chapter on openness and honesty within yourself, or look at your situation in life when you selected him, did you have a spell of low self esteem yourself for some other reason??<P>More later, as a day trader, my job opens in 5 minutes.<BR>sWIFTTy

Nina,<P>Yep, that is just an excuse! I wonder how many times he thinks it will take before he gets enough experience. Will he come back when he gets to the 6th woman because then you will have the same experience? Boy, he's really kidding himself if he thinks it has anything to do with this. It sounds to me, this is just one huge excuse for him to play.<P>Well, you sound like you are getting stronger every day. I think it's great. <P>Take care.<P>ANNA<P>oh I would imagine they are already working on the site to fix it. I was thinking it possibly has to do with not enough memory space. Although I really don't know what I am talking about in this area.

Hi Nina,<P>This must be universal. I went thru all the same emotions that you are right now. I had the same kind of husband who also told me the OW was the first time he cheated. What a joke. I also felt like you and that was the worst feeling, that the last 20 years of my life have been a lie. I also ended up with an std from him, which I also didn't know was one until all this hit the fan.<P>What woke me up was my dad, who is visiting right now giving me a kick in the butt (but he wears size 10). He's divorced because my mom was a cheater - and being an old divorced guy, he has a lot of divorced guy friends. He told me that by the time a guy leaves his family for an affair, he's already done it 4-5 times before. He also told me that it takes about 4 years til the cheater has deep deep regrets and wishes he never left his wife, so don't expect anything otherwise til then. My dad it seems has been right on the money in my case about all this little wisdoms he handed down to me.<P>You really need to think about it. Do you REALLY want this man in your life. Always wondering if he's really working late. Never trusting whether he's telling you the truth or not. Always wondering how much risk your health is taking with him. He's gotten thru your entire marriage lying, what's gonna change him now? These kind of men are worthless, and I hate to say that to you because I know you love him. I STILL have bouts of wishing mine would come back, but they are very short bouts at this point.<P>Nina, I have so much I'd like to write but even under the veil of being "weirded out", I don't know that I want to write about my personal life anymore. If you want to e-mail me, I'm kmd_kmb@hotmail.com. You are not alone, remember that and definitely not hopeless. He is.<P><P>------------------<BR>Kathy

Sorry, double post. I'm having trouble with my computer being really REALLY slow on responding back to me today.<BR><p>[This message has been edited by weirded out (edited September 19, 2001).]

WIFFTy,<P>Your insight is always valuable to me, and i thank you for keeping your eye out once again.<P>I white lied about how many, not how good he was...he was great. Came naturally to him. <P>You're right about the low self esteem, he would often ask me what did I think so-and-so thought of him, did he 'act' alright at the party, etc...put himself down a lot that way. A FOO thing...his dad put him down all the time.<P>My history is something I actually did examine in depth just before all this began...and I gained some really useful insights to my behaviour, beliefs and reactions. We truly are the result of our upbringing, and a lot of my actions were pure FOO stuff, and not a lot of it was good. So it was like a light bulb moment, and I was really wanting to share this new and improved me with him when he told me about OW#1. I did tell him eventually, and he did see changes, but not enough for him to stop with OW#2...or #10 for all I know now.<P>When we first started out together, I was in a really good place in my life...I was happy, work was great, everything was fine. I noticed later that whenever I had work problems of any kind, or if I was ill, he couldn't handle it, didn't want to know. So I stopped sharing that with him. He only wanted me when i was totally happy, and how realistic is that?<P>Qoute from Weirded out: <P><B>What woke me up was my dad, who is visiting right now giving me a kick in the butt (but he wears size 10). He's divorced because my mom was a cheater - and being an old divorced guy, he has a lot of divorced guy friends. He told me that by the time a guy leaves his family for an affair, he's already done it 4-5 times before. He also told me that it takes about 4 years til the cheater has deep deep regrets and wishes he never left his wife, so don't expect anything otherwise til then. My dad it seems has been right on the money in my case about all this little wisdoms he handed down to me.</B><P>Wow, that's scary...I wonder if there's actual statistics for that figure.<P><B>You really need to think about it. Do you REALLY want this man in your life. Always wondering if he's really working late. Never trusting whether he's telling you the truth or not. Always wondering how much risk your health is taking with him. He's gotten thru your entire marriage lying, what's gonna change him now? These kind of men are worthless, and I hate to say that to you because I know you love him. I STILL have bouts of wishing mine would come back, but they are very short bouts at this point.</B><P>Well, at the moment NO, I don't want this in my life ever ever again. I am much too good a person for that s***. But you know this stupid roller coaster will go around a bend, and then I'll be remimiscing about all the great times...ugh. I Do feel hopeless and stupid, I know all I was was trusting, thinking he had the same committment to the marriage that I had. Bad game play. Never assume.<P>So, now I am at a very, very bad place. I am so angry...and he will probably phone tomorrow for the kids, and I don't even think I want him talking to THEM, never mind me. <P>

Nina,<P>I know how you feel about the children talking to their dad. I am constantly reminding myself to watch how I am acting around the children and the signals I am sending them regarding their dad I have to remind myself how important it is they don't know what a jerk I think their dad is. I know if I pull the children in to our divorce and have them take sides, the anger and bitterness they will feel for their father, will only hurt them, the emotional problems this can cause for them would affect them for the rest of their lives.<P>Hey, also regarding the website being so slow. At first I was thinking Database integrity, but as I listened to the news this morning they said several websites were slowed to an almost hault yesterday, enough to where people thought certain sites were down. This was due to the Nimda Virus. So possibly MB is being affected also.<P>Which btw, they also suggested everyone do a virus update and all the necessary patches, then run a virus scan on your computer.<P>Talk to ya soon girl! Hey, I wanna hear what special thing you did just for you today...or since you're in Australia I guess I should now say tomorrow.<P>Take care,<P>ANNA<P>

I don’t what to say. I read your posted and wanted to cry. You’ve been a tremendous help to me but I’m at a loss of words. Your right, no one deserves to feel what we’ve been through. The cheating, lies and deception. It all Sucks! We are all here for you and you’ll be in my prayers tonight.

Hi Jacky,<P>I doubt there are statistics, just my dad's own experience from all the people he knows. My dad is just a regular guy and he knows a LOT of people - his "buddies". Actually, he's a very Christian man and he chooses to hang out with people who aren't so that maybe they'd see there is a better way. This is just his observation, his own "poll" sort of. And like I said, he said all the guys he knows wish they never left their wives, but it took a few years to get to that understanding. But I remember defending the X to people who would ask me if I thought he'd ever done it before, saying no way, he's a total boyscout. Then my dad told me his view...and BAM! the lightbulb went on to all the strange things that have happened thruout our marriage. Things that made me pause because they hit me as odd, but I just shrugged them off. The constant "hang up" calls, the girl who followed him from one job to another, the distant attitude that used to come and go with him, the constant wanting to "move" to another town, the way his company suddenly wouldn't let me come in with the kids to visit him at lunch, the way his company suddenly didn't have the big Christmas party anymore, the way he wouldn't want to go to family parties anymore because they dug into his weekend-so I'd go alone with the kids leaving him free to do whatever, etc. That's when my version of our history was changed forever. I thought things were one way, when actually he was living a separate sleezy life, like all those nights he had to pull all nighters at work WHEN I WAS PREGNANT. He also by the way put my babies at risk of death or severe mental retardation at birth had I unknowingly had a problem at that time. But my memory was that he was a hard worker - when actually it was him making opportunities for himself to do who knows what with who knows who. The list is huge and goes back before we were married. Then my nephew got into his computer and it was all there.<P>What was left? I do not want him. A man like that either has no conscience or just utterly disrespects you. And I'm not willing to risk anymore of my health on him.<P>This is just me tho, and ya, even with my knowing he's a pig, it's still a roller coaster. I still have days when I want so much to remember something good about him.<P>Having said all that, I still let him have whatever relationship he can with the kids without getting my nose into it too much. And at first he did see them all the time, but now he rarely bothers. Not to mention that he tried to wipe me out in court which was also unbelievable.<P>I guess I'm a little down right now too...but my dad's here and that really helps me.<P>Take care and try to think about YOU and the kids only, ok.<P><P>------------------<BR>Kathy

Thanks Anna, WM and weirded out for the replies.<P>Firstly, I won't stop him talking with the kids, never ever would do that the them...but I just don't like it. When the glasses came off and I see what a scumbag he is I don't want that kind of person associating with them. But I know I have to. And I will still be holding him up for them...Daddy loves you etc. Which is true, he does love them, just not enough to stop his selfish ways.<P>I woke up this morning with the resolve that I was just going to get on with my life and accept that I am now a single parent, my marriage is over, and I have a life to live, for my kids as well as me. It feels like my H is dead, except that if he had died, I wouldn't be so angry.<P>As far as divorce goes, well he can do it. He has waffled since he left, so I don't expect it any time soon, but I will not file. It's his mess, he can clean it up.<P>I don't know if anything can be done to save the marriage now. I lived with someone for all those years that I didn't even know. I thought I did, but I now see why it was that he hid his feelings, why he treated me with disrespect at times, why he spent so much time away from home. It really, really sucks. Too much, I can't accept that kind of past. It was all fake, and now I know it for real.<P>So it hurts, really bad, but I think, as everyone said at the beginning, I have begun my recovery. It begins when you let go...I have really begun to let go now.<P>It's a lot easier to do when I see him for what he is.<P>So he will call tonight...I'm just going to hand over to the kids, and not make conversation, or let him lead me into any, either. I am a bit worried that I would scream at him anyway. I truly don't want to speak with him. Maybe I'll just get one of the kids to answer the phone.<P>Thanks again.<P>Jacky<P>

Nina,<P>I know you are hurting and angry and I don't blame you! You have every right to be. I do think this is just part of your healing. You need to go through this. You really do seem to be getting stronger every day. It even sounds like you ready for plan B. <P>Your friend,<P>ANNA<P>