No, that's okay. We all know here that selfishness is a big part of the WS fog. I think there must be a book somewhere called "How to Act Like A WS...hints on being in 'the fog'" Cos they all do the same thing.<P>

Jacky,<P>good morning to you! keep up the contact as much as possible to have the kids call him. Do you have any holidays such as we do here, like Halloween? <P>my suggestion is that you open a kids email account, and have the kids write to tell him about their day everytime they miss him. You can type and they can dictate. then you send it, you say or do nothing to interfere, or if they can type, let them do it themselves. .. .<P>lets them feel empowered to call him.<P>Now, have you sent your Plan B letter yet? <P>If not, you need to do this ASAP. . . as you have gone, and<BR>he needs to know your position very clearly. I know you may not want him, but you need to do this as the final step of making sure that he knows how you think about him, and what you need to be a family.<P>The letter and Plan B is the bronze bullet, with only the silver left, and the silver should be to have him served for divroced as soon as he steps foot on the really big island.<P>now, you should consider bringing up the email account suggestion at the family meeting. See if the kids will like it or not. . . . .<P>seriously, you must maintain some level of contact at all costs for the kids. . . . otherwise, it will be a very difficult adulthood for them.<P>good luck,<P>now we all know that the children suffer, it is very important to get them to understand their feelings and how to deal with them, and you are the only teacher right now, and without another one, such as a counselor, you will be part of the target of anger, and will have difficulty dealing with it unless you can really separate thier feelings from your feelings.<P>sWIFTTy<BR>

Hi sWIFTTy.<P>I had thought of the email thing for the kids today...I got a phone call and email from H today, and he attached one for the kids....much too painful for me to read, cos it was so full of love for them and I was wishing there were still words like that for me. So I will set one up tonight right away, and show my son how to access it tomorrow...bet he'll be so happy to be able to do that. Great idea.<P>H did phone tonight, I wrote a good description of events and then lost it when my pc jammed up and i couldn't seem to post anyway. But he was concerned for the kids having to have counseling (well it IS his fault) and stuff, but he seems quite happy for me to be getting on with things...I have had enough of this s*** and I'm going to Plan B...infact as far as ANY communication goes with him, I don't want it. It just tears me apart too much. So business stuff can go to his dad, and the kid stuff, unless it is really important, I don't want to hear. Or tell.<P>Angry??? You betcha!<P>Jacky

Familiar with the study referred to, I think. Pretty sure I saw once because of my job. Interesting, but all kids are different so I'm not sure how it applies to your kids. There are many different studies reaching different conclusions on hte effects of divorce on kids. Be careful-no two kids will react the same, nor will they fit a slot in some study. Patience and love-that's all you can offer now. Lee

But the effects are almost uniformly horrible - whether the kids react with intense anger or intense sadness or whether they withdraw - there is no good way to be abandoned by your parent. In the vast majority of cases, from what I have read 80% or more, by the time a few years has elapsed, the non-custodial parent has almost no contact with the children.

hey lady it's me,<P>finaly have time to read and post. i can't tell you how much your h sounds like mine. i guess you already know that though. my h doesn't want to hear about anything if it causes him to reflect on the pain that he is causing and perpetuating. <P>i really beleive that you just need to be honest, but not pitiful. tell him the facts and don't suggest what you want him to do... more than likely he will hate the suggestions and be uncooperative. he may feel like you are telling him what to do. let him make the decision to do the right thing. if he doesn't you'll just have to first talk to God snd pray for grace to survive this (which you probably are already doing) and give even more love and support, show even more patience and concern than you already are. i know you give your kids all of that but sometimes i myself tend to fall short because of my own pain and suffering. it's like who comforts kim. but i have to be strong for them.<P>my h doesn't call or see the kids unless i call him and complain about it. my oldest (son) hates him. he told me the other day that he wished he would die. and that he will never go anywhere where he is. and guess what? it's my fault he (son) feels that way about dad. dad beleives he has nothing to do with it. it is only the fault of me for not defending h to son and son's fault for not being a perfect human being. what a jerk. i think, no, no, i "am" starting to tire of this whole scene...<P>hang in there sis. God is still on our side. you are in my prayers, my thoughts and my heart.<P>love kim...

It sounds like most of your kids are younger than mine. The WH actually said that he had waited this long so that the kids would be able to handle it better. Right.<P>My daughter turns 18 in a month and will only speak to him when he speaks first. She refuses to go anywhere, do anything with him.<P>My son is 15 and is still talking to him - if you can call what guys do talking - has been over to his apartment to help him with heavy stuff and to eat. They also planned months ago to attend a concert this weekend together - and I guess are still going, but my son has really waivered about it.<P>They both know about his infidelities because one overheard us talking and then told the other. They are being so good and sweet to me right now, always giving me big hugs. They know that I want to try to reconcile and that he won't even discuss it.<P>My kids are talking to favorite teachers at school, but there is also free counseling available there.<P>My favorite part, which I will never tell them, was that he said his happiness was more important than what this would do to them. They'll get over it. Selfish bas***d.

Thank you for the replies.<P>An update is in order....<P>I set up an email account for the kids, and they sent a letter to H yesterday. He replied today with a lot of nice stuff for them, triggers for me. How he remembered things about them, for instance, and how he cares how they feel (OH REALLY?) I as an adult, do not fully believe that, so what hope has he with kids. They're so insightful. Anyway, at least he wrote.<P>Lee, yes I am becoming aware more each day about kids taking it differently. I have three, and their reactions vary quite a lot. I am always on my toes. But for me there are good things...I get LOTS more cuddles, especially from 8 year old boy...<P>Nellie, I am also aware of the bad stuff, and I am experiencing that now. 8 yr old was with his cousin this week for a holiday program field trip (excursion in Oz speak) and the cousin asked son if her had been to a particular place with his mum and dad before. My son said "Don't say that word." Cousin said "What word?" Son said "The one after Mum." Now this seriously disturbed 6 yr old cousin, cos he went home and told his folks this tale. I only found this out today from his mum. EEEEWWWW!!! I want to scream.<P>And yesterday I got a list of houses to look at, none of them allow pets. Son can read very well, and saw this. He was devastated..whuy can't we have pets? I want a pet. You said we could have pets when we got back to Oz...we did, before the split, I want us to buy a house, why can't we??? He was CRYING about his...trying to understand finances. I always prided myself that he was so intelligent, but it is his downfall right now. He can cut to the chase, and it is killing him. That's why he in particular needs therapy.<P>KIMMY!!!!<P>Don't know why, but you are Kimmy in my head.<P>Be honest...yes, after speaking with SIL today, I decided I must be...he needs to know what I mean when I say they need therapy, so I will just tell him some of the things they have been saying and doing...in an email, so I can control what I say. I get so angry at him...NOW he's showing an effort, after 12 weeks, ten of which he could have seen them any time he wanted.<P>billbailey, I know where you're coming from. My kids unfortunately know about OW, because HE exposed her to them, and when I found out, I could NOT control my anger. I phoned him and let fly...they probably heard every word. I truly think he thinks they're too young to understand.<P>One thing that has just GOT to me this whole time is a comment he said in counseling about the kids...he said "Oh yeah, I will miss them, but they're pretty adaptable kids, they'll handle it." LIKE HE JUST DIDN'T CARE WHAT THE KIDS FELT. Yes they could handle being dragged from one end of the world to the next. But they adored their father, and now they believe he truly doesn't care about them, and who can blame them.<P>My mum took them to the park today...they were gone for three hours. That is the first time in twelve weeks that they haven't been my sole responsibility, apart from his infrequent visits. And I realised I need a break. His parents live on a farm and have offered to have them for a bit, so now I have my CAR (yes, folks, I got it today!!! freedom) I will arrange something. They will likely be glad to be away from me, too!!! Well, maybe not...if they want to come home early, I'll go get them...think I'll explain that to the inlaws (fear of abandonment).<P>My poor babies .<P>Thanks again everyone,<P>Love and light,<P>Jacky<P>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Nina too:<BR>One thing that has just GOT to me this whole time is a comment he said in counseling about the kids...he said "Oh yeah, I will miss them, but they're pretty adaptable kids, they'll handle it." LIKE HE JUST DIDN'T CARE WHAT THE KIDS FELT. Yes they could handle being dragged from one end of the world to the next. But they adored their father, and now they believe he truly doesn't care about them, and who can blame them.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>This idea is all over the culture here in the US- I'll bet in OZ too. Kids are adaptable and resilient, everything will be fine for them in the long run because we know so much about the effects of divorce and we have a small army of therapists ready to handle it. It's complete B.S., but WSs want desperately to believe it (I've posted about hearing some of the same nonsense from my wife).<P>The fact that it "gets to" you is understandable, but he's not going to change that outlook soon, so you're going to hear it from him. I'd suggest writing down things like your son saying "Don't say that word (Dad)" so that if and when he says "com'on, do we really have to spend money on therapists for them," you have something concrete to point out. He'll try to blame you for it; stay out of that battle- maybe point out that that's the sort of thing a therapist will ferret out and suggest changes on.<BR>

Yes. I will write things down, and I will be telling him all that the kids say and have said from now on...he needs to know that the adaptability thing only goes so far.<P>Thaks dabigtrain...BTW you have never to my knowledge posted your real name...do you want to divulge? If not, don't worry, just curious!!!