Bumper..<P>I am extremely offended with you lumping me with the verbal abusers. I am very passionate about my viewpoints and it doesn't have anything to do with me be negative or rude. My point is very blunt and straight to the issue when it comes to adultery! <P>It seems like my posts are viewed as being rude when I am just stating the facts about how bad people hurt after an affair! Please don't mistake passion for being rude!<P>I would appreciate that!<P>Bryan [img]images/icons/cool.gif" border="0[/img]

Bryan,<P>Have to wonder if you even read my post. <P>First off, the remark that "real men don't cheat" was totally uncalled for. No one confused the passion of that remark with rudeness; if it isn't rude, it will certainly do until we find something that is. The subject of this thread was never intended to call anyone's manhood into question and it wasn't to debate morality. Bula was asking for insights, searching to understand. The idea of my post to Kat was to thank her for sharing, and let her know that this is a safe place to do so.<P>Nowhere in this thread did I suggest that you were verbally abusive in your marriage. Your marriage wasn't even mentioned. Your reaction to others admitting affairs was very similar to the verbally abusive behavior described in Pat Evan's book. We just can't ask people to share their experiences, even the bad ones, and then turn around and slap them down for it with remarks like "real men don't cheat".<P>Pat Evans also notes that the first reaction of a verbal abuser is to deny that his or her remarks are abusive. Verbal abusers typically deny the abusive attitudes or attempt to mask these attitudes in the cloak of legitimacy, or piety. Very similar to what you posted, only using "passion".<P>Nobody lumped you in with verbal abusers or anything else. There was no mention of you in that post, it wasn't about you, it was about the behavior.<P>I just don't happen to be one of those innocent and injured parties. When they appoint the committee to judge the morality of others behavior, they certainly aren't going to pick me. The very first thing I realized as I read "The Verbally Abusive Relationship" what that not only was I the object of verbal abuse, I have engaged in some considerable verbal abuse myself. Quite literally, I am the "thief in the jury, guiltier than him they try" <P>Since I can't change anyone else, what was the point of reading that book, or anything else posted in this forum, if not to capitalize on my strong points while I try to identify and shore up my weak ones?<P>Offended? The very first offensive remark in this thread, "REAL MEN DON'T CHEAT" wasn't my post. It was tempting to just let that go, as any response would serve to to flame the thread. There is an old Irish proverb that says if you would know youself, listen to your criticism of others. "Please don't mistake passion for being rude!"

bryan,<P>Excuse me if I am wrong, but I find that most people that want to shoot **straight from the hip** **blunt as it gets** <I><B>HONESTY</B></I> don't care for it when it is returned.<P>YES!!!! <BR>I cheated in my marriage, is it right?<BR>NO!!!<BR>Am I proud of it?<BR>NO!!!<BR>I did it and I gave my reasons. <P>IF by any chance those reasons that led me to a bad decision help someone else then by all means I am glad I did it.<P>You are certainly entitled to your thoughts, as am I. And one of the things I have learned here is ONLY YOU own those thoughts. <P>They can only affect me if I chose to accept them. Personally after reading your posts I am not sure that I would chose to accept any advice or judgements that you might be willing to <I>share</I> with me.<P>-Kat-

Kat..<P>I am not "shooting straight from the hip", I am being truthful! You are a recovering WS and I am happy for you! God Bless!<P>Bryan

Kat..<P>That is fine if you choose not to listen to me about my thoughts. You are a WS, and I will gladly accept that! <P>Why don't you ask some of the children and the BS spouses that have been HURT severely by adultery and poor moral decisions and ask them the same questions. <P>My viewpoints are not directed at you! You have to understand that! If you are a WS, and if you are now doing everything you can to save you marriage, I am 100% behind you and I wish you luck! My problem is with WS who continue to have the affair after affair with no regard to their family or spouse!<P>GOD BLESS!

Okay, positivebryan, you're not crazy.<P>I have to chime in here a bit.<P>I was only accused of being "verbally abusive" once I knew about the affair. I exploded at first and called her every name in the book; quite normal after the incredible amount of pain a loved one is inflicting on the BS. If you want to talk about abuse, #1 is adultery. I wouldn't wish that much pain on my worst enemy, literally. My WS XW quite literally conjured up ways to blame me and manipulate me and press my buttons in order to make me the bad guy due to her guilt. My list can go on and on. The WS not only cheats on the BS, they lie and totally betray the trust of the BS. The person that the BS would previously trust without question is now lying and accusing the BS of everything under the sun. Up until the BS finally catches on to the game, they actually believe that they are this horrible person the WS makes them out to be. The BS is not only injured by the affair, their self-esteem is temporarily, maybe permanently, damaged. It is the ultimate pain a person can inflict on another. <P>"Real men don't cheat". I agree strongly with that statement. I called the other man once when my divorce was going through and told him "A real man would never mess with a married woman". Only a worm would do such. If you take issue with that, then fine. If any former cheaters are reading this, I hope you are never on the receiving end. I think you will sing an entirely different tune if you are. I think -Kat- and Bumperii are also taking the statement to mean that "Real women don't cheat". I also agree with that statement. I think in time -Kat- and Bumperii will too. This is not to deny that problems existed in their marriages, but adultery is NEVER an option. If you don't like your marriage, have the "balls" to get out of it on your own. Do not be deceived into believing it is worse than it is or unfixable because a parmour is telling you this in order to sucker you into a relationship with them.<P>I disagree totally with the statement from the book that basically if someone denies that they are verbally abusive then they are. The same logic has been used throughout history. If someone says that they are not a witch, they are. And so forth.... It looks like a witch hunt to me.<P>Bumperii,<P>I let your previous post pass. It was something about your XH being an alcoholic or traveling too much. It may have been about verbal abuse, but I forget. (probably errant, but doesn't matter) I think you were trying to blame him for your adultery. I think you can legitimately blame him all you wish if he was an alcoholic or traveled to much or something like that for his part in the DIVORCE, but you can NEVER blame him for the ADULTERY YOU committed. He had absolutely no part in the affair. If that offends you, then so be it. I do not mean it as a personal attack. I am stating my opinion. A divorce can be justified I think, but adultery can NEVER be justified under ANY circumstances. If you can logically express your assertion that your XH had a part in your adultery, I'd love to here it. As painful as all of this has been to me, I find it totally intellectually stimulating.<P>Yes, positivebyran does express some amount of hostility in his post as I probably do to, but I believe his points are sound.<P>It's very interesting that lately my WS XW has become much more easy to deal with. We can communicate much better lately about our daughter. She now will look at me sometimes whenever guilt isn't eating at her. It is a look of "Uh-oh, maybe I screwed up".<P>Kevin

father......If you don't like your marriage, have the "balls" to get out of it on your own. Do not be deceived into believing it is worse than it is or unfixable because a parmour is telling you this in order to sucker you into a relationship with them.<P>snl...This confuses me some father. You took an absolutist view in this post, one that can be easily taken apart if I was so inclined. But I do not want to lecture you on the murkiness of human behaviour and what it all means, and I know you are hurting, but I do have to note something. <P>If the other person to your wife (I assume they were married too, in most cases they are, but if not this only applies to married other people)..... then isn't your wife also the paramour to them, suckering then into a relationship with her? And if you are so down on paramours, why would you want to be married to your wife?<P>This is a recurring theme through the posts of bs, the evil op who seduced their wonderful spouse away from them.....but ya know what, it takes two to tango, and YOUR wonderful spouse is also the evil despicable home wrecker too, so why do you want em back...ya know?<P>My wife was discussing this today, trying to convince me the ow was an evil whore......but ya know what, if that is true, I am an evil whore too. But she doesn't hate me, only the ow, this makes absolutely no sense to me. Am I so stupid and ignorant that I fell for the wiles of the ow? To what end? And no doubt her people are saying same things about the evil om. But ya know what, some people are predators, and evil, or just psycho and manipulative. But many others are just normal regular people, in hard places in there lives, who find someone and a relationship develops. We could debate to the cows come home the morality, it is all made up anyways, and is not perfect at all. I agree with the morality, but made no difference, there are stronger drives out there, and the strongest is survival. People who feel they are dieing emotionally, will if right circumstances occur, reach out to another.....they will live, and all the morality in the world will make no difference. <P>You also miss one other point. In the murky depths of human behaviour there exists lots of games people play. And one of the games is dominance, submissive mates may very well not have the emotional strength to leave a dominant partner. Happens all the time. One of the ways of surviving is to bond with someone else and draw strength to change your life. I am not saying that is a good or bad thing, I am saying it is a thing, it does happen, and will continue to happen as long as human beings mate, and find themselves unable to leave on their own.

Put it this way why do people cheat. Or why do women start 70% or more of divorces. Men cheat because they do not get at home what the feel they need just as women do. What a concept. <BR>This kind of thinking is just more male bashing.<p>[ October 21, 2001: Message edited by: ronnb ]

snl<P>The OM is not married. He was divorced around 1 year prior to my XW getting involved with him. His XW divorced him.<P>Additionally, while she was cheating on me, he was cheating on her. When she found out, she wanted to do him in. I told her to just let it go. This led to a reconcilitation, but she soon was drawn back to him after he told her he was no longer seeing the OP.<P>My WS XW says that she is the one who drove a lot of the affair, but I wonder if it is only to protect him. He has called and hung up before.<P>The person that she is now is not the person I married in any way, shape, or form. It is shocking how much the personality of a WS changes. They do a 180.<P>He is a smooth-talking and smooth-acting SOB (I have met him) and the bottom line is that she believes everything that he tells her. I remember one time vividly when trying to mend the marriage. Just when it seemed that things were starting to dawn on her, she said she was confused and went for a drive. I know that she must have talked to him during that drive by cellphone and when she came back she was not listening anymore.<P>I think that she is starting to see the truth. More time will tell.<P>As far as a submissive being unable to get out of a relationship... Friends and family are probably there to help. An affair will only serve to make things worse. Relationships built upon affairs have a very poor chance, statistically.<P>If you think you can tear apart my absolutist view about adultery being wrong in ANY event, please do so. It seems that adulterers are quite adept at rationalizing anything.<P>Kevin

I have to laugh here, It is obvious that neither of you really read the question. And if you did then you attacks are designed to make people unwilling to give input.<P>If you read my post on page one you will realize that I left my marriage after I wandered. I did not have an A I had one incident of cheating.<P>If you read my post you would realize that I had spent years trying to work on my marriage to no avail. That does not excuse what I did. I didn't include that I caught my H with another woman and still tried to put it back together<P><BR>It didn't include the fact that my H never knew that I cheated...IT did however show that I told him what I was going to do. And he chose to not change our marriage.<P>I am sorry you were hurt but to put ALL the blame on the WS is to not take any responsibility for what you did or didn't do in the marriage....and besides that was not the question originally asked.<P>-Kat-

Hi Kevin,<P>Boy have things gotten confused in this thread. I've never had a husband, I was a husband. I am of the male pursuasion.<P>I agree with the remarks both you and Bryan made about the pain of infidelity. I am both a betrayed spouse and the betrayer. Let me try to clarify this a little. <P>I am a recovered alcoholic. My ex wife was involved in an on and off affair that lasted for seven or eight years. Among other things, we do not know who the bio father of our youngest son is. Our son was nearly seven years old when all this came to light, and even in the face of all that hurt and anger, I realized that we could never tell him. She promised she never would. That worked OK until we found out that he was dying from congestive heart failure. In the grief that followed, she let the cat out of the bag, and he was devastated. When our son came to me asking for a DNA paternity test, I refused. Pure selfishness, I'm not going to let anyone tell me I'm not his father at this point. If my son has to die, he needs his Dad by his side, not some sperm donor.<P>That is how I found Marriage Builders, seventeen years out of a marriage, twenty odd years after infidelity, and sitting in front of my computer with tears running down my cheeks. So, for me the pain of infidelity still isn't over yet.<P>In the aftermath, I got involved in an affair with my ex wife's best friend. At the time she too was a BS. Yes, we made real some real bad choices turning to each other, two sick heads don't make a well one. The affair didn't end because I repented, it ended when she died. Six marriages ended in divorce. Granted, not a whole lot to stand up and cheer about.<P>It was two years ago that the doctor's gave my son five years to live. He is totally disabled, he lives on Social Security disability and whatever I can help him with. The crisis has drawn us closer than ever. He hasn't asked again for a DNA test, so it looks like the refusal was the right choice.<P>Kevin, you and Bryan aren't the only ones who have felt the pain of infidelity. Everyone is hurt by it, betrayed and betrayer, OP, children, family and friends. Plenty of hurt to go around for sure. And it is never over.<P>Given all that, I don't see the value in remarks like "Real Men Don't Cheat". In this society, when one calls another's manhood into question, it is an insult, and by the way, an insult that is recognized by the United States Supreme Court in the Fighting Words Doctrine.<P>If you will take the time to go back and read this thread, you'll find out that my points are carefully taken. Bryan flamed this thread off on a tangent that has nothing to do with the question Bula posed. And frankly he got himself in a bad spot by asserting that I was making assumptions about his marriage, when in fact I never mentioned his marriage.<P>There was no witch hunt here, only a response to an insult. I merely pointed out that his response was remarkably similar to the behavior described by Pat Evans.<P>I repeat: "We can't ask people to share their experiences, even the bad ones, and then slap them down when they answer." As such, Bryans remark: "Real Men Don't Cheat" was inappropriate to the context of this thread.<P>Now, relax for a minute. With my son dying on one side of me, and my mother dying on the other side of me, do you really think I am concerned about what anyone thinks of my manhood? Gimme a break.<P>All I wanted to do was to thank Kat for sharing her experience, and assure her that this is a safe place to do so. She stuck her neck out trying to help someone. All either of us was trying to do was respond to Bula's request for information.<P>And yes, "Real Men Don't Cheat" in the context that it occurred is a verbally abusive remark.

Bump,<P>Is there anyway you and I can talk in e-mail.<P>I lost my the man I dated for 4years to a motorcycle accident in May 1999.<P>My son suffered a Cardiac Arrest at the age of 15 and sever brain damage July 1999 <P>My best friend died of Cancer<BR>My sister died of cancer <BR>and my mother died of cancer <P>all in the year 2000.<P>I might beable to offer you some support in what you are going through.<P>I am so sorry for you pain.<P>Can I help??????<P>-Kat-

Uh. Sorry.<P>Very confused now.<P>-Kat-<BR>According to what you wrote, your XH was way off into the sick and you did everything you could.<P>Bumperii<BR>I obviously got you confused with someone who recently was expressing their thoughts after having committed adultery, but who still seemed to be trying to make justifications for it. So sorry to hear about your son and mother.<P>Kevin

Father,<P>Apology accepted. And thank you.<P>It takes a very big person to beable to apologize.<P>-Kat- [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]

Kat,<P>You are very kind. Sure, my email address is Bumperii@yahoo.com.<P>This thead is about to get out of hand. There is an unspoken agreement amongst most of us here not to do any harm. Better put, if you can't help a person, at least try not to make it any worse. Somewhere along the line that got lost. We've been talking about some pretty heavy stuff that has to be read carefully or it turns into crapola in hurry.<P>I'd be glad to exchange email with you. And with Bryan and Kevin too.

Hi again Kevin,<P>Well, I knew things got confused, but I also know you are among the good guys and you are a man with a lot to offer. I enjoy reading your posts. Thanks for your kind words, no offense was taken, no apology necessary.<P>What we need is understanding and acceptance. And at that, you my friend excell.

Kat..<P>Answer this question for me!! What would you do if you were the BS and your WS came to you and asked you for a divorce but they didn't really know the reasons why they wanted a divorce? Case in Point, I have always put meeting my wife's emotional needs at the top of my list as a husband. Even after D day, I wanted to do everything I could to save or marriage and my WS wife did nothing to help me or our marriage? How would you react if your spouse told you that they "love you, but they are not IN love with you"? What would you do if you spouse told you that you are the perfect husband/wife and that you deserved someone much better than the WS and then in the next sentence, they asked for a divorce? What would you do Kat??? What would you do??<P>You seem to think that all BS did something or didn't do something to satisfy their spouses emotional needs and usually your assumption would be correct to some point, however, my wife told me that I was the perfect husband and that her affair had nothing to do with me not meeting her needs! What would you say to that????<P>I went without intimacy for almost 2 years dealing with the "head" games that she played with me because I thought that her existing medical condition was the reason why she didn't want intimacy with me. Before all this happened with the affair, our sex life was AWESOME, and then on day, it totally changed! Did I have an affair, NO! Let me know what you think! <P>Bryan

bula,<P>Definitely not my topic of expertise - first of all, I'm female, and my H was ingulfed in porn. Why did he do that? I was a very good wife - he would be the first to tell you that, until I told him I wasn't going to put up with it anymore and asked him to move out - now I was a terrible wife. But his excuse for the porn? Low self-esteem. He's overweight and in poor health due to it, and although I never complained about that, but tried to help him with it, he was "ashamed" for me to see him naked. On the rare occasion (we're talking once every few months) we did have sex, he always kept his shirt on - very annoying.<P>But maybe I can offer a little insight in other places, although the more I think about it, the less I can understand it. But from the spouses of men who've cheated, this is what I learned:<P>Two cheated because they were unfulfilled sexually at home.<BR>One? Who knows? He even admitted to his wife that he had a great marriage, and she was more than willing to meet his sexual needs - he just found a woman that he couldn't resist. <BR>One was because they had a terrible marriage and didn't communicate on any level anymore.<P>Of those four, though, I would like to say that all of those marriages are still intact - some better than others, but they're surviving. <P>I don't know if that helps any, but maybe it will just a little bit.<P>So Very Confused

positivebryan,<P>I think it would do you some good to read "Private Lies" by Frank Pittman. I admit that the only reading of it I have done is at Barnes and Noble, but it is really good. I probably should buy it and read if from cover to cover.<P>I submit to you that some people just have a huge hole in them that all the love in the world from their spouse will never fill. Many people never learned to make themselves happy and became dependent on others to do it. They start looking everywhere to fill it, including places that they shouldn't. Some look in a bottle, some do it with drugs, and some commit adultery. I don't think my WS XW has ever been happy in her life, really. I asked her about that and she agreed. I also think that she was molested at some point in her life before we met and that really has her screwed up.<P>My XW made the same exact statement to me: "you deserve better than me". I'll admit I don't really deserve that much praise. I definitely have my faults, but I am a really clean-cut guy. Rather than being the perfect husband, it was probably her guilt just talking as she really cares about me but is totally disgusted with what she's done.<P>I'll give you the best example of this huge hole that I can think of. My best friend is the greatest guy you will ever meet, really. He can give and give and give and give without any expectation of return. He can take abuse repeatedly before losing it. You will never find a more devoted father and husband. All he does is work and take care of his family, really. He is hanging in there, maybe too long, to keep his marriage alive. (has two kids) His wife cheated on him not long after my wife cheated on me. It almost ended in divorce. I was able to slow him down long enough to stop it. In hindsight, maybe I shouldn't have. Take the absolute best day that you can think of; friends and family over, beautiful neighborhood, beautiful day, everything, and she is still miserable. She is the purest form of a Taker you will ever find. My mother was the same way. He will never be able to make her happy. Why? What she needs, he cannot give. All she does is take and take and take and blame him. He "isn't a good provider", blah blah blah blah. He is a web developer at Compaq for Pete's sake. They live in an upper-middle class neighborhood. She just isn't a happy person. Her mother and dad did drugs when she was a kid. Her dad died when she was nine. She was raised by her grandparents. She is just screwed up, miserable, and blaming.<P>Some people just don't have themselves together well enough to maintain a lasting, healthy, relationship.<P>And last, but not least. Lay off of -Kat-. She doesn't have the answers you are looking for. Her experiences in her marriage aren't like the ones in yours. I know all that you want is an answer, but blasting her won't help. She doesn't know.<P>Kevin

Kevin,<P>Holy Cow! Your wife sounds like my husband! Only one difference my husband would never tell me I deserve better, he thinks he's the greatest.<P>Take care guy!<P>ANNA