OK, jsmacy...your turn. Is this true?

Jeez, just give this d*mn woman up already. It's upsetting your wife, and for good reason. Is it worth all this just to have a female friend? Why go on with it when it's causing this much trouble?<P>Give her up or you'll be choosing her feelings over that of your wife's.

d and c forgot to add that it would be different if he had included me from the beginning. if he had just invited me, i may feel more comfortable with it. but he didn't. he also wouldn't this last time, the one he didn't go on. he kept saying, 'maybe another time, but this one i can't'. even if i couldn't go, it would just make me feel a lot better about it. although the way they act around eachother might just make me ill by the end of the dinner, or whatever we do. <P>oh, and he keeps saying something about how if he gives into not hanging out with women alone, then i can control all of his friends and where abouts. so on his part i think it's a control issue. any guys have insight into that one. is it a guy ego thing<p>[This message has been edited by saraheliza (edited September 13, 1999).]

Well, saraheliza, I'm still waiting for your H to reply and verify what you said.<P>Meanwhile...about you 'controlling who he can hang out with'. Yeah, I think that's a guy thing -- a married guy thing. It's very important to my H that he keep his own separate identity outside of "US". I can understand that, I have the same thing. But I wouldn't do anything that upset him that much PROVIDED HE LET ME KNOW IT BOTHERS HIM -- something he rarely does.<P>Last week I gave my H a 2-page letter explaining how I feel about this friendship. And lo and behold, at a party last weekend, she starts treating me like an equal, and now he's looking for another job. So perhaps I broke through.

Wow, I am suprised at some of the stuff I "said"... "Smartest Person I know", and "Intellectually Stimulating"... Intellectually I can’t pronounce. She is an intelligent person and in my field I find that rare... Loose weight, for her health as I have explained she is always tired and I think exercise would help. Makeup, she asked me if I liked her in makeup, am I supposed to lie?<P>Why are we still arguing about her? As I have told my wife, no, she is not someone I would date if I wasn't married, too many flaws...<P>Ok D & C... Last time I told her she was special, how about introducing her as my wondering, loving and (something else I can't remember) wife... That would be Sunday. The "real job" comment came out of frustration (which I have already apologize for with in 30 mins of saying it), you know how I mentioned that I have my issue to project all my anger and everything, it is cleaning (or lack there of, I can see the wrath of the stay at home mom's coming down on me)... I don't want to go into that.<P>JaniceT, yes I am in a "management" position but I do not directly work with her 95% of the time...<P>Cristalle_in_NYC, ok what am I supposed to do? I have agreed not to see this person alone... What do you want, me to quit my job, move to Alaska? Oh and in the future when I see a woman I should introduce myself with "Hi, sorry can't be friends."... Ok I am being sarcastic... But honestly what? This isn't my first female friend that she has had problems with, it is just the first that she has gone this far with.<P>How about this question: What if it was a gay guy?<P>And - You say give up this woman, what do you mean? Not see her alone - done, Not see her at all - Impossible, Stop being friends - Plain Stupid.<BR>

I already wrote him a 2 page letter. He didn't get it. He's living in another universe. I should write another one now that it's been awhile since it hit me that he was alone with her quite a bit.<P>I totally understand the need to be outside of 'us'. I just wish that it did't include other women. Of course, you should have seen him when I was talking to a guy at Sears when we were looking at fridges. He was controlling himself, but he sure was acting possesive. We were just talking about kids (the guy was a pediatric nurse, so we were talking about choking hazards and common things that came into the ER). And the chances of me seeing that guy again are nill <P>I don't know if he's checked the forum lately. Probably not.

saraheliza, jsmacy:<P>There's a great chapter in a communication book that I'm currently reading: it's <P>"Would you rather be right, or be loved?"<P>Here's your issue, in a nutshell. Both of you are not following the "general" rules for a good marriage: Harley's Four Rules of Protection (elimination of lovebusters), Care (meeting each other's emotional needs), Time (spending 15 hrs/week quality time together), and Complete Honesty (total, absolute---without lovebusters).<P>You both need to address the marriage issues without getting your underware all bunched up. I suggest that you both work with Lovebusters---you both are obviously "right", and with that tremendous responsibility is usually associated the Lovebusters "Disrespectful judgements" and "Angry Outbursts". I also see selfish demands being thrown around. I can't tell about dishonesty or annoying habits---but they're probably there too.<P>You must identify (for each other) your lovebusters. Do it with the lovebuster questionnaire available on this website. Discuss the questionnaires with each other---making sure that the "recipiant" of the information keeps their mouth shut, while the other delivers it (without lovebusting---use the "I feel" phrase).<P>Once identified, sit down together and make a verifiable, achievable plan to eliminate them. With quantifiable goals. Write them down if you must. Use the Policy of Joint Agreement to discuss these---although elimination of these undesirable behaviors is the most important thing you can do, you should agree together on how to eliminate them.<P>Once you have lovebusters in check, you can move on to identifying and meeting important emotional needs using the same approach (questionnaire, sharing, planning w/POJA, execution). You'll find that you should be able to get lovebusters under control within a couple months. If you make a good effort, you'll be consistantly meeting each other's needs within a few more months.<P>The result of this will be that Sara won't really care about this friendship as much. And Stephen will give it up for her in a moment.<P>You two can continue to be "RIGHT" and antagonize each other until you eventually build up enough resentment to divorce. Or you can decide to love each other---to put aside these differences and start working on the marriage skills necessary to make your marriage a terrific, wonderful place to be.<P>I've done it---my wife and I have tackled problems way beyond what you've faced, and we've been successful. And the effort we've expended doesn't seem to be so bad, and the results have been thousands of times worth it.

Ya, do what K says and stay away from that woman... LOL

K:<P>That book wouldn't happen to be HOW ONE OF YOU CAN BRING BOTH OF YOU TOGETHER, by Susan Page, would it? I know she talks about "being right" as the booby prize.<P>My take on this is that saraheliza latches onto remarks and takes them to heart. I do the same thing. Sometimes we even set ourselves up for that. I call them "Does this make me look fat?" questions. In my case, it was telling my H that I felt his "friend" was chasing him, and he said, "Well, she can't have me, because I'm with you." My DTMMLF question was, "Well, what if I wasn't around?" Answer: "Well, that would be different." Now what he MEANT was probably something along the lines of, "Well, she's nice, and if I wasn't with you and I knew her, yeah, I'd probably date her." What I HEARD was "If I wasn't stuck with you, I could be with her."<P>Men don't understand this stuff. <P>You've given these two some very good advice. Clearly, there's more going on here than either is telling us. Saraheliza is hurting, has been for some time, clearly has some self-esteem problems that pre-date the marriage and which she must handle herself...and she can't tell the harmless from the harmful anymore. jsmacy is angry, has been for some time, and may very well be using this "friendship" and other belittling remarks to get back at his W for shortcomings in weight, housework, etc.<P>None of us really knows the true story, but the bottom line is as you've said: <P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>You two can continue to be "RIGHT" and antagonize each other until you eventually build up enough resentment to divorce. Or you can decide to love each other---to put aside these differences and start working on the marriage skills necessary to make your marriage a terrific, wonderful place to be.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I've been working on my problem in this area for the better part of this calendar year...and I've seen some results. These guys have to decide if they want to be married to each other.

D&C:<P>LOL---the book that I referred to is "Communication Miracles for Couples". I ordered it from Amazon, along with "How One of You Can Bring the Two of You Together". I just started Susan Page's book this morning (at 5 am)... <P>And yes, I ordered it on part because of your strong recommendation. So "thanks"!!

jsmacey<P>The reason this "friendship" is still an issue with your w is because you took so long complying with her wishes. I also have not seen any indication that you lend any validity to her point of view. I still don't think you see that there is a problem with this or any such relationship. The only problem with them is that they are loaded with dangers to the thing you say you value. Below is a post I made to another thread on this topic for what it may be worth....<P>I have never seen a marriage that was enhanced by a friendship of this type. I have on the otherhand seen many marriages destroyed by what started out as an innocent friendship with a member of the opposite sex. When you think about it nearly all affairs started in this way. You can also be sure that when the friendship started an affair was the last thing on their minds. I even know people who talked openly about how they were safe guarding this relationship so that it would not become inappropriate. I am convinced that there is no sin that I am not capable of given the right set of circumstances. Because I know that I am a falible being I take very strict precautions to protect the things I value most. There is nothin wrong with a friendship with a person of the opposite sex it just isn't a wise choice if I want to be sure that I stay faithful to my wife and family. For that reason I have a set of rules that I use that I have imposed on myself. These rules are not there to hinder my enjoyment of life but rather to shelter and protect the things in life that brings me the most joy.<P>1.) I am never intentionally alone with a person of the opposite sex for any reason.<P>2.) If I find myself alone with a person of the opposite sex I remove myself as quickly and as politely as possibble, but I LEAVE.<P>3.) I never talk with anyone of the opposite sex about my spouse unless I am bragging about her.<P>4.) I always let my spouse know where I am and what I'm doing.<P>The result of these rules is 21 years of marriage. Have they all been happy ones? Mostly. When was I the least happy with our marriage? When I was more focused on my desires than her needs. Why don't I feel cheated by not allowing myself to have a friendship with a person of the opposite sex? Because my best friend is my spouse!<P>My advice is to compile your own personal rules before there is a relationship you want to pursue. There is nothing that can twist rational thought more effectively than emtional involvement.

js & sara...I am a victim of an affair. It began with my H starting a supposedly innocent friendship with some woman. That's the way they start....The friendship js has is inapppropriate and is hurting your marriage. Better to end the friendship than risk the survival of your marriage. Nip it in the bud right now. It will prevent a lot of heart-ache later. You've received a lot of great advice here. Hope you'll take it.

I know and feel everything that you have been going through! My husband has hired a secretary that he use to work with 20 years ago who was known to have affairs with others in the office and he and she use to have lunch together. He tells me his first wife never had a problem with it. Before he hired her, we had several arguments about him hiring her and he told me he would not and guess what he did--he hired her and then told me to go ahead and get mad if I was going to cause he was making a good business decision by hiring her and that his work was none of my business. This was the first deception. I asked him if they were doing lunch together and he always said no, so i asked him if they ever did would he at least be honest with me and he said he would. Well I had some pretty hard gut feelings about this, so I went and sit outside his office one day and I called him from my cell phone and I asked him what he was going to do for lunch that day and he said he was getting ready to run out and get a sandwich. While I waited the next 2 hours, he never left, but she did and returned with his lunch. That evening I asked what he finally decided on for lunch and he gave me the best story--he went out for a coney and the milkshake machine was down, etc., etc. and when I told him I was there and that I knew he didn't go anywhere and that she got his lunch for him, he was furious with me for spying on him and finally admitted that he had once again lied to protect my feelings, and of course swears that he has never lied before and will not do it again. It has caused a lot of problems for me. He was ready to quit his job, just so he wouldn't have to let her go. That made me mad, cause he's the manager and why should he put us in the financial hardship to save her job?? I've heard over and over how great of a secretary she is and what a good person she is, and how he is just trying to get his business going in a positive direction and needs good people to work with him. I'm just at my wits end with the whole thing and I think about it daily. There is so much more to this story. I'm just wondering if I am wrong in my thinking that he should not have hired this woman or should I just go with the flow that this was a good business decision to hire this well qualified individual???? All comments are welcome, because it's been 6 months now and I can't seem to get over it and he just gets mad when we try to talk about it.