Hi guys,<p>Here's some questions I have for you. I'm a directing this to Wiftty, thinker and SNL, although they are all very different people, because I've been talking to them alot lately. However, I would love to know these especially from the "old timers" since I think often we can learn more from people who have spent a long time studying specific issues.<p>I would also want to hear from any newtimers that want to chime in.<p>All questions are optional. Just answer the ones you feel comfortable with or apply to you.<p>1. What did you learn about yourself since you came to MB, both the positive things and the negative things?<p>2. What did you learn about the things you did personally which were wrong in your marriage, and you think may have made your marriage better?<p>3. What approximate percentage of fault do you feel you have for the condition your marriage was in before she/he cheated on you? or If you cheated what percentage of fault do you feel you had for the condition your marriage was in before you cheated? <p>4. If you went to counseling. <p> A. How did you grow as a person through counseling? <p> B. Did counseling help more than MB or MB more than counseling?<p>5. If you were the betrayed spouse...Did spouse cheat on you while you were together, started relationships while separated or divorced then dated?<p>6. If you were a wayward spouse. <p> A. What changes have you made in your thinking or attitude to insure an affair in your current marriage or future marriage will never happen again?<p> B. Did you ever apologize to the people you hurt and tell them why you felt what you did
was so wrong?

7. What would your spouse say about you, both the good and bad?<p>Ok, there's my questions. Thanks guys for answering them.<p>Take care,<p>ANNA<p>[ November 09, 2001: Message edited by: Anna2000 ]</p>

1. What did you learn about yourself since you came to MB, both the positive things and the negative things? <p>I learned about POJA, and why it is used, I learne about EN, which are necessary, both mine and hers. I learned most about LBs, mostly for myself, when they happen, and why. I learned that my X liked being critical, a LB, and did not want to change. From the discussions, I learned about personality types and personality disorders. I learned that most women liked sex, as i was told that lots of women don't like sex. I learned that her MLC and fog was normal for the process, and that i wasn't alone or weird. . . . that it wasn't about me.<p> 2. What did you learn about the things you did personally which were wrong in your marriage, and you think may have made your marriage better? <p>our personality types were polar opposites and required each of us to stop assuming that the other person was like ourselves. learning to understand personality types would be a big help.
I now am pretty confident that she has a combination of OCD, BPD and NPD.<p> 3. What approximate percentage of fault do you feel you have for the condition your marriage was in before she/he cheated on you? or If you cheated what percentage of fault do you feel you had for the condition your marriage was in before you cheated.? <p>Since my fault was working hard for the big promotion, and getting a big salary increase and bonus, i learned that i became out of balance for what my X expected of me. but being out of balance was not all that big a deal if she would talk to me, and have discussions. but she grew up learning not to discuss feelings and not to debate issues, and not to have goals, but to exist. she grew up talking about the weather and traffic, and her teaching job. (both XILs were teachers together.) so I put my responsibility at 25%.<p> 4. If you went to counseling. <p>yes, X refused to go, i got her to go to her own counselor, and she said "I only will need 3 meetings." and she manipulated the counselor into disagreeing with my counselor by bringing up stuff that happened 10 years ago. . . and then getting the C to suggest that a separation was needed.<p> A. How did you grow as a person through counseling? <p>I have done tons of personal counseling by using counseling books, and learned from where I came and whom i was, and the values that i stand for, and the goals that i want for myself, and why i did actions that i did in the past.<p> B. Did counseling help more than MB or MB more than counseling? MB helped far more than my own counselor, much broader, more relevant. MB counseling is aimed at the marriage. individual counseling is aimed at the person. Since i was basically a normal, very well communicative person, there wasn't much on individual counseling could help.<p> 5. Did spouse cheat on you while you were together, divorce you then date or started relationships while separated? <p>EA's admitted to, PA's not admitted, by highly suspected due to behavioral changes while together. OM#1 is long gone, and OM#2 is sort of around. . . they both work together at the same employer, different departments. X is a teacher and a co-department head, OM#2 is a maintenance man.<p> 6. If you were a wayward spouse. <p>EA's then yes, although mostly my imagination, nothing there and as soon as i admitted it to the person, i cut her out of my life the next day.<p> A. What changes have you made to insure it will never happen again? <p>what it?<p> B. Did you ever apologize to the people you hurt and tell them why you felt what you did
was so wrong? yes, but at the time, the explanation was a temporal coincident, my turning 40. not the real issue, which was no communication or discussions and no time together, and not feeling admired, respected, loved.<p> 7. What would your spouse say about you, both the good and bad? <p>I have no idea, i couldn't figure out what she was saying when she talked to me, how can i figure out what she might say. . . . she has said so many foggy things, that the only one i know of is that
"I work too hard for the almighty dollar." but then again, she is a teacher at an exclusive boarding school, with very little responsibility, with no chance of ever getting fired or laid off, with a free house and utilities, and able to work when she wants and take off when she wants.<p>yet, she refused to talk about money, did not want to understand our investments, and because she works with the very liberal minded, public service mentality and the poor me teacher attitudes, she feels justified in her actions.<p>next interrogator may come in .<p>WIFTTy

Wiftty,<p>Turning off the bright lights [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] ...Thanks for helping me out and answering them. I changed the question that made no sense. <p>Take care,<p>ANNA

So what r ya doing anna, writing a book?
1. What did you learn about yourself since you came to MB, both the positive things and the negative things?
Hmmm... about myself? Probably should break that down into two categories, 1 behaviourally, and 2. temperament/psychological ......... one can be changed (some) the other is inherent, and who you are.<p>behaviourally, I LB way to much. I am far less critical than my spouse, and it would be easy to do one of those I do it cause she does it....but I know that is not true (well, might be true, but it is not a legitimate excuse), and MB reinforced it, we really are responsible for our own LB.... not only to spouse, but to everyone in our lives. There is just no room (or justification) for angry outbursts, disrespectful judgements, selfish demands etc. I never did much of this overtly....but I have learned better that we (I) can disguise (so to speak) LB by tone of voice, body language, implication, etc. and must be more aware of such things. I have also learned...well more like acknowledged to myself, I am reluctant to meet my w en's, and it is difficult to "make" myself just "do it". Understanding why, is the crux of my massive effort into trying to understand what is marriage, love, bonding, fitting, and how all this relates to mental health, and choices. Most other stuff I already know, I have done a lot of introspection in my life so MB was not like an eppihany or anything. I pretty much knew my needs, just maybe not so specifically as MB describes stuff. I knew I was unhappy, now I know more accurately why, and has to do with my need for emotional honesty, and feeling safe. <p>temperament...I have become more comfortable that I really am an ok person. That people really do vary in temperament and how they percieve what marriage should be, and what is acceptable to them, and that is ok. That those of us who are high maintainence (maritally speaking, in terms of communications, passion, connecting) are not needy freaks. I have learned more about softening my analytical demeanor so as to not unnecessarily appear insensitive and cause hurt (an on-going process since coming on-line and interracting with real people about volatile subjects). Some would suggest I have more work to do there. I am more aware of how I approach life, and how that differs from other approaches.

The biggest difference revolving around rules/order/status quo vs everything is always on the table, life is constant reevalluation, and changing stuff...both are essential to our species survival, and our own well-being...but we favor one over the other....the most glaring point of conflict being revealed in the mindsets of vows....many think it is an inviolate promise, and should be kept for that reason alone....others think marriage is a dynamic process, it should be nurturing to both parties, and if it is not it should end, the two viewpoints will never meet (or understand each other). One is about "rules" and the stability rules offer (a good thing), the other is about mental health, the well-being of people (happiness), not the picture of a rule (and that is a good thing too for stability). Another thing I have to deal with the complicated dance of being a conflict.avoider//nurturer//problem.solver and giving in to things I am emotionally in disagreement with....I have a hard time standing up for me without feeling really guilty (one of the reasons I hate that emotion), and that I am responsible for everyones happiness, and becoming depressed when I can't accomplish that. But I have learned (better) how to recognize and resist the easiest way to manipulate me, anger doesn't work to well, I will give in to avoid it, but I am rebellious and it won't last...... but if I am approached as a rescuer, I am inclined to forget all my needs and "help". This "appears" a good thing, sacrificial and all that good stuff, but it is not....... not good for me, not good for them.... it is a dependentcy/co-dependency toxicity, that was so hard for me to finally see, I do now, but it is still so hard to act in opposition to it.

Being a rescuer seems on the face of it a good and noble thing, but it is not any different than other dysfunction, in that it obstructs egalitarian relationships, and can be a control mechanism also, that was hard to swallow. I guess in a larger sense I have learned that pretty much all human behaviours have a good and bad side to them, it is how we apply these behaviours that determines a good or bad outcome, and learning about ourselves is how we avoid the toxicity. But I also know (am absolutely convinced) it is crucial how you fit an intimate partner, cause the synergy of how your temperaments mesh, in large part determines "good" and "bad" relationships, and that this is immutable, cannot be changed. Each "marital" pairbond you could form with every single human being (well, of opposite gender) has a given level of "success". Poor fits being under say 40% (and miserable places)........... average fits being 40-70% and people settle or not, make it work or not, but can have reasonably content (if not in-love) marriages, and a 70-95% fits are the ones we all strive for, the passionate in-love marriages...left off 5% cause guess no one is a perfect fit. None of us has "perfect" temperaments, fitting is not only about finding compatibility.....but also of finding incompatibility that is not toxic. You can have tolerable and intolerable incompatibilities as well. I also am convinced now that ones mental health is directly related to how well you fit someone, and cannot be just "decided" about, human beings do not have the capability of just "decideing" to be happy IMO, but we do have the capacity for denial, and pretending we are happy, rather than deal with the reality we should not be married to someone, or whatever serious life circumstance we find ourselves in, and lack the courage to change.<p>
2. What did you learn about the things you did personally which were wrong in your marriage, and you think may have made your marriage better? <p>I already pretty much knew, but have had to accept marrying before we had worked out our problems, was not a good idea, and I am the one who carries the most responsibility for that. I had a better grasp of the likelihood we would have trouble. But my personality type torpedoed my good sense. I wanted to make her life better, and help her recover form foo issues, those are not good reasons to marry. The inevitable conflict reduced the motivation to meet ens I suppose, for both of us, which just made matters worse. Once married I don't know that their was anything else I could really do (at the time, not from the perspective of now). I did change some things about me that needed changing, through counselling, but it takes two, and my w was unable/unwilling. One could have conjectured if they (me) knew all this MB stuff, and just plan a'd for years change would occur, but I don't believe that, long term plan a's just enable the dysfunctions of a spouse, they have no incentive to do anything. I could have employed a plan b, that may have been enough to shake things up, but I doubt it, and I was unwilling to put the kids at risk.
3. What approximate percentage of fault do you feel you have for the condition your marriage was in before she/he cheated on you? or If you cheated what percentage of fault do you feel you had for the condition your marriage was in before you cheated.?
That is a dangerous question anna, but I have to say there is little doubt in my mind had w met my en's I never would have wandered. However I did not wander cause of en, and she probably could not meet my en because of who we are. It is sort of like saying if I was married to the right person I would not have wandered, that is true for everyone, unless they have their own issues they solve by sexual conquest (I don't have such problems). I left cause I recognized (so to speak, but not conciously) the marriage no longer existed, and I acted psychologically/emotionally like a single person. And when I became aware of a compatible person, nature took it's course. Yes I chose, life is not all emotion, but these are strong forces, and at some primal level, one says it is ok to love someone, so you do. But this is not about blame/fault...I don't think that is useful, marriages fail (through a, or otherwise) on their own merits, and the fitting of the two individuals. After the failure, they "date" and reconcille if they want, some go back to the old marriage (a huge mistake), others do "change" frim the fire, and find they can be in-love and choose the one they have "dated" for so long, others recognize it will not work in an intimate sense and they seperate, hopefully amicably, with caring.....but often not, and IMO is not, because they were toxic marriages and the nature of the divorce validates that it was indeed the right choice (to divorce).<p>4. If you went to counseling.

Yes, all of our married life, my wife went to (mostly I set this stuff up), but it was very ineffective. We did ok when focused on me, and I change this and that. But my w mostly used counselling as a means to control me (and validate how awful I was to her), and was not very enthusiastic about looking at herself.
A. How did you grow as a person through counseling?

I started out in marriage being too controlling (a benign controller, like many of the guys here....who say they are not...yeah right). But it caused friction, and it did not feel right to me either, so I made a decision to give it up, and pretty much I did. It is still there, I have learned when to let go, but the urge is always there, sort of like alocholics, and every other "thing" I guess. That tells me I was able to grow, to recognize my deficiencies and be proactive about dealing with them, not being a slave to myself (so to speak). That is why I also feel comfortable with other things about me (things some find annoying), cause I understand myself, and I like who I am. If someone does not, we just do not fit, and that is ok. No reason not to be civil and get along, just will not have a lot of personal interaction. Of course this does not work in a marriage, where interaction is the whole point.<p>B. Did counseling help more than MB or MB more than counseling? <p>MB is far more focused on the marital nuts and bolts, and is better. But it is pretty much ineffective in dealing with underlying personality issues, which affect many people, and IMO that describes a lot of the marital difficulties here. A spouse is trying to apply MB to a marriage with a spouse whose personal issues trump anything MB can do.<p>5. Did spouse cheat on you while you were together, divorce you then date or started relationships while separated? <p>Not sure what you want here. I never so much as looked at (EA so to speak) another woman, much less act on it. I cannot recall anything I have ever done that would be considered inappropriate, other than maybe a fleeting time or two of strong attraction to another woman, which was not acted on, but not talked about with w either. Not as a secret, but cause never crossed my mind any need to talk about such a thing. I was married, that was it, end of story.
6. If you were a wayward spouse.

A. What changes have you made to insure it will never happen again? <p>Not sure changes is the right word, more like awareness. By sticking with this, and working through understanding myself, what happened, why, including lots of conversation about such things with ow as well.... I now feel comfortable I could recognize a developing relationship before it got to the point of no return (so to speak), and would back off. I also would be very leery of much interaction with married women. Lastly I have reached an analytical conclusion, that although one can successfully find the "right" person through an affair, the likelihood of success is daunting, and the price of failure so high, as to make one avoid this option. For rules makers just saying it is wrong is enough. For rationalist types, we need to know why love (which is never wrong) is not a good idea to pursue in this fashion, we need pragmatic reasons, or in fact it is not wrong to do so. Since there are very good pragmatic reasons why an A is wrong, both temperament types are in agreement.
B. Did you ever apologize to the people you hurt and tell them why you felt what you did was so wrong? <p>Yes, but I am married to a rule believer, and she found my rationalist based apologies inadequate. There really is no one else (except kids, which I have talked with) who can make a claim to hurt. I have made it clear to ow (and she to me) that we are sorry about the hurt we cause each other as well, as we struggle with this, and sent each other back to our marriages to resolve our marital issues. And the ow did tell my w she was sorry, but as one can expect, this was not necessarily well recieved. I have had no contact with owh (and not sure what he knows), but if I do, I would apologize to him. We do not come from close families, and our difficulties have not really impacted anyone else. And for the most part, I think this issue is primarily between H/W and OP/OPS (and kids), it really isn't anyone elses business in terms of them feeling hurt or betrayed...... IMO the effort to paint the ws as some sort of evil societal parasite is an effort by rules makers to set the agenda, and gain position over a ws when the time comes to deal with one. The goal being to bind them to them, instead of letting people choose everyday to be with them cause they want to, not cause they are obligated to.<p>7. What would your spouse say about you, both the good and bad? <p>That she does not understand me, that she feels she cannot trust me, that she is not sure she wants to be married to me if I cannot believe in "rules". She questions my religious beliefs. That she thinks I am unfair, and do not care enough about her, that she is contributing more than I am to the marriage. She says she wants to have her own affair. That she is not sure she wants to be married to an analytical person. And finally that she does not believe I would see that she does not suffer, or emotionally abandon her if we divorced. As for good..... not much, probably that I work hard, and am trying to be honest (too honest I guess) with her. She might acknowledge that I did real all the books, do the questionaires etc, and attend the counselling. Mostly she is very unhappy with me, is focused on how could I choose someone over her, refuses to believe it was not about her, but about me, and that their is nothing terribly wrong with her. She would say my struggles with the why questions are personal attacks on her.<p>[ November 09, 2001: Message edited by: sad_n_lonely ]</p>

SNL,

Thanks for answering. In my mind I didn't want to question anyones answers, I only wanted opinions, but I am so incredibly confused about an anser you gave. This answer seems to be conflicting with the information I already know. You are a wayward spouse, you've admitted being a wayward spouse, you've even said in another paragraph you learned "awareness" is key to not making the same mistake twice. So you are admitting you did make a mistake and yet this whole paragraph seems to conflict with the truth.<p>You answered this...

5. Did spouse cheat on you while you were together, divorce you then date or started relationships while separated? <p>Not sure what you want here. I never so much as looked at (EA so to speak) another woman, much less act on it. I cannot recall anything I have ever done that would be considered inappropriate, other than maybe a fleeting time or two of strong attraction to another woman, which was not acted on, but not talked about with w either. Not as a secret, but cause never crossed my mind any need to talk about such a thing. I was married, that was it, end of story.<p> Is this SNL talking? The guy who had an internet affair while still married and then made the affair a physical affair? Is this a joke? SNL I'm sorry, I am being sincere here, I don't get your answer here at all. You are acting like you were this incredibly faithful guy. Ok, maybe you just left out a paragraph. Would you mind relooking at what you wrote. I've done that before, let out something significant or accidentally deleted it. If this isn't the case then...What are you saying? Are you basically saying the OW never existed and you were faithful through your entire marriage. I'm confused because I know you were unfaithful. [img]images/icons/confused.gif" border="0[/img] <p>
Thanks again.<p>ANNA<p>

uh oh!<p>hmmmm, somehow this sounds hauntingly familiar. . . <p>SNL, let me guess, you are an INTP, or close to that, maybe an ISTP, and your W is an ESFJ, or close to that. . . . . and she came from a very controlling family, and the mom wore the pants in the family? or was manipulative toward men or was grossly disrespectful to her husband. . .<p>hmmm, SNL, your point of view resonates well over here. My X is controlling, admits to that, admits she must think before answering, just uses the feelings and is hyper sensitive to events being about her, and admits that she is very critical. Rules, that is the funniest part.<p>every situation has a rule for the moment. in fact, the most frustrating rules were accompanied wth her analysis and explanation of my behavior to me, and she used the metaphor of a kid. Well, it turns out that she can relate well to the world as long as the others are kids. When i told her i was not a kid, but a fully functional, responsible adult, she felt defeated.<p>Now i can't help that. She has to grow up someday. OK, i must go,<p>but SNL, here is the deal from my point of view, in my i bet similar situation, i did the plan A as best i could without being a doormat. However, i did not counsel with the Harleys, and X wouldn't counsel with anyone in reality.<p>X told me she wanted to be right, here debate, argument, analysis was not about truth, but about being right. She wanted control over me, using all kinds of manipulation, emotional, verbal, etc.<p>I however, am not a conflict avoider, but a conflict resolver. In the end, i realized that nothing would change, and our relationship would only exist if the relationship was similar to my XIL's which are perfectly co-dependent, never talk feelings, only weather and traffic and kid and teacher jobs. no real world stuff. i pointed out where they were totally wrong, could physically see the evidence that they were wrong, and then they refused to talk to me any more.<p>My XIL's were a FOO disaster, and i also thought that i could rescue her. Well, that was also a false assumption, i know where it came from and why, but i can't change the past. <p>So, in the end i gave her what she wanted, i made the decision to move out, and both of us are now happier. Why? well, i don't have to up the stupidest rules and conversations i have ever had. and she gets to totally control her schedule, which is her highest emotional need, a stable, predictable schedule, as well as present to the world that she is the ultimate parent at her job, plus it gives her more leverage over her schedule with her employer as more people will feel sympathy for her. Her current OM is the opposite of my intellectualism, sports oriented, adventurous persona. He is basically marginally educated and can be easily controlled, like my XMIL controls my XFIL. (BTW, my XFIL has a Yale Masters degree, and talks with the intellect of a 15 year old to make my XMIL feel smart and dominate over him. and he shakes hands like a woman. UGH!)<p>So, SNL, while posting here at MB, you will always encounter the 99% confidence interval that the marriage is sacred and to saved at all costs. However, personal values and goals must not be totally sacrificed as your message to the kids of your underlying values may be garbled and lost.<p>That to me was most important in my decision to resist being a total doormat, as my values are successful, and X's values are regressive.<p>SNL, only you can make your choice, which as a Perceiver, may be hard and against your nature, but i say, if you can't make your marraige work to your satisfaction after using all the tools available within two years, you should divorce. . .<p>times up, the kids will not get a confused view of family life and your values, but will get two completely different viewpoint independently, and will take what they will from each of them for themselves and then they will be more consistent people, but also less qualified marriage material.<p>good luck,
but you have to make the tough decision, and then follow through 100% with evaluation points along the way, same as a business plan. . .<p>sWIFTTy

Wiftty,<p>Just a comment. First, I am not for sure you have your personality totally correct and wouldn't want to go into that, but I always thought you and SNL had more in common regarding personalities than you both ever realized.<p>It's cool to see you see the similiarties too.<p>Take care,<p>ANNA

Yes wifty I am an INTP, and my wife is indeed a ESFJ. And as you found out when you sprinkle in foo issues, you have a recipe for marital disaster. It is not a question of whether I can make it work, I can. I know what would have to be done, I have done it for 29 years (with varyind degrees of success as I gradually died, lost who I am). All the figuring out is pretty much over, the issue is should I, or more exactly why would I. Anna (and others) lean pretty hard on me re that issue. And needless to observe probably, the ow was a hand and gloove temperament fit. She is not a factor, she has to deal with her life (and a rule worshiping H also) strange how we all end up with the wrong spouses isn't it. But now I know what fitting someone means, and it is very hard to accept never living like that to worship a rule. <p>And you right, that was my biggest struggle the confusion for the kids, it was always nip and tuck whether I was doing more damage holding the marriage together, or seperating and letting em realize there are 2 distinct ways. Of course this was before I knew about temperaments, and thought one could "choose" these things. Interestingly 2 out of the 4 have my temperament, and get along poorly with mom, 1 is similar to her and gets along pretty good (and not so good with me), and one we think got switched at the hospital, we are both gonna disown her. Maybe we need to do a DNA test.<p>anna...Is this SNL talking? The guy who had an internet affair while still married and then made the affair a physical affair? Is this a joke? SNL I'm sorry, I am being sincere here, I don't get your answer here at all. You are acting like you were this incredibly faithful guy. Ok, maybe you just left out a paragraph. Would you mind relooking at what you wrote. I've done that before, let out something significant or accidentally deleted it. If this isn't the case then...What are you saying? Are you basically saying the OW never existed and you were faithful through your entire marriage. I'm confused because I know you were unfaithful. <p>snl...I am an INTP anna, I took it as a given you know my story, and realize I was talking only up to the A. But maybe I missed the point of the question.

Well, i can empathize completely, it drove me nuts, and what i think i figured out is that i could not figure out before, is that X has an undercurrent of Narcissism, a bit of BPD, and lots of OCD. Once i figured that out, and she refuses all help, etc. I knew that our relationship happiness was beyond Plan A.<p>I told X two years before that if we were having problems, and that we need to make an effort to work together. I also said that if not, i would not stay after the kids leave the house. I am all for staying together for the kids, but she did not agree with that, and refused to agree to that. She said her friends (who lot of them were having affairs at the time) told her she should divorce me, and join them (the ones that couldn't escape from their own town and their own ineptness.)<p>even though son says he is an INTP, he is given so much freedom and little responsibility, he appears to have the makings of the Narcissism also, and he does not like getting along with me, as it is much tougher, although more adventurous, more independently responsible.<p>WEll, good luck, you know where i stand and how i handled a similar situation. my only point is to make a decision and then make a plan to support it and then once you are childless, i say relook at your options, and situation, it may not be the same and i would not expect it to be.<p>WIFTTy

oh, and SNL,<p>you should take an ENFP out for a test drive,
they are quite yummy! [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img]

<p>[ November 09, 2001: Message edited by: ThornedRose ]</p>

1. What did you learn about yourself since you came to MB, both the positive things and the negative things?<p>That people have pretty specific needs in a marriage...I do, my H did. While at some level I probably knew this, I didn't know the specifics or the importance of meeting these needs.<p>2. What did you learn about the things you did personally which were wrong in your marriage, and you think may have made your marriage better?<p>I didn't meet my H's most important needs to the best of my ability. I think if I had known what they were and how to meet them, things would have been very different. Also, I didn't take the problems in the marriage as seriously as I guess they were.<p>3. What approximate percentage of fault do you feel you have for the condition your marriage was in before she/he cheated on you? <p>50%...I think we were both equally at fault for the problems in the marriage.<p>4. If you went to counseling.
A. How did you grow as a person through counseling? <p>To be honest, I'm not sure I did grow that much thru counseling.<p>B. Did counseling help more than MB or MB more than counseling?<p>Definately MB! This on-line support group was invaluable.<p>5. If you were the betrayed spouse...Did spouse cheat on you while you were together, started relationships while separated or divorced then dated?<p>He cheated on me while we were together.<p>6. N/A<p>7. What would your spouse say about you, both the good and bad?<p>That I'm a good person. That he still loves and missed me at times. That I have a tendancy to be negative. <p>Aloha,
Ms.O

TR, <p>Both highly intelligent individuals. Whom, from what I gather hate the idle chit chat ramblings of meaningless conversations..<p>don't hate it, just hate a steady diet of it without any break. . . .<p>Where they find mental stimulation in intelligent conversations, and find themselves attracted to these women..Yet, both married women completely opposite themselves so that they could 'fix them'
and 'teach' them how to be more mentally stimulating..<p>superficially, yes, from the limited information you have here, but other than that, but alot more than that. . . .<p>I'm sure both of wives were/are very physically appealing to the eyes..which was a big part of the initial attraction..yet, they lacked the conversational skills that you both require for a fullfilling relationship..and when you tried to change that in them,(ie:challenging them to think deeper about a subject,and not just give a standard response), they began to fight for control in other areas of the relationship..to gain what would seem to them a more equal footing within the marriage..<p>Nope, you see, we were a good match until i decided to grow up and become whom i wanted to be. that was career oriented, and after i got my MBA, and started working, everything was still ok, but then i got my executive position, and then the X got threatened, partly because i had a hard time putting up with the stupid routine. . . and there are lots of more variables which precipitated her MLC, but let me say, i am the one without all the personality disorders, and without the foo issues that she learned.<p>basically, she changed from who she was, regressed so to speak, started doing alot of what she said she was against, and used alot of ridiculous logic to justify her positions/controlling desires.<p>and i grew up more, and demanded more from her, and she couldn't give it, and refused to acknowledge that she needed to grow up. . . .<p>Have I assessed these correctly?<p>very superficially. . . . i will give you a B- in psyche 101. . .

<p>[ November 09, 2001: Message edited by: ThornedRose ]</p>

Wifty,<p>If you are there, right now. Can I email you?<p>ANNA

Hi everyone,<p>Ok, First I have to say I was hoping this thread would just mainly be how people have grown, especially old time MBer's. I was hoping to keep the analyzing and critisms out. I was wrong because I never stated this. I made a mistake.<p>Wiffty,<p>Now that there has been things stated. I feel I must jump in and say some things.<p>Anyway, I worry about what is being discussed here. First, you don't know SNL's wife or anything about her. It seems you are just going on what SNL's interprets to be the truth.<p>Second, Wiftty, your own wife was a teacher. I'm sure she was intellegent. Perhaps her interest were different and so were SNL's wife. This does not make them any less intellegent than you two. Also, have you looked at the possibilities you argued with your wife and debated until you were blue in the face? The exact same way SNL debates on these threads. Just not letting an issue go. I wonder if you didn't wear your wife down to a point where she didn't want to discuss anymore, because you wouldn't see her side ever. Just food for thought.<p>Third, I also wonder about something else. Here's something to think about regarding your own marriage. It seems like you and your wife grew apart greatly due to the fact you worked so many hours, you didn't put your marriage first, instead you put money first. Is there any truth to this?<p>One more question. I wonder if both you and SNL don't feel a need to control more than you think. I may be wrong, again, but from your post it seems as if this could be a possibility. I'm not saying this is horrible, I'm just wondering if you have both really looked at how much you want people to see your views or your side. If this is why there is so much debate, more than just your typical wanting someone to dig deep inside them.<p>Well, just some things to think about?<p>ANNA<p>[ November 09, 2001: Message edited by: Anna2000 ]</p>

Well, here is my point of view. H says did not have an affair besides this one. Only God knows and H knows. I have never had an affair. Seems H didn't answer that question. Maybe he is questioning me, would like to know if he feels I had an affair. I will place my hand on the bible, say in front of the pastor, no I have never had an affair.<p>Sure H found the OW smart, witty, and sexual. She answered his questions the way he wants. Take for instance tonight, H wanted me to call this guy about finishing a job tonight or tomorrow. I can never say the right words on the phone. I feel so inadequate, asks when I get off the phone, why did you say it that way? Why didn't you say exactly the way I stated it? I got so defensive tonight, cause I am getting tired of his demeaning me with the phone conversations. I try, very hard, and I get chastized by him with almost every phone call I make. The worst of it is he goes on and on? Why can't he make his own phone calls, if I am so inadequate? I said write down what you want me to say, he said no, you write it down. I said why don't you write it down? He said don't tell me what to do. You know what, I would really love it if he would say, I know the phone situation is not one of your positive points, why don't we work on it together. I am very good at taking calls, scheduling calls, but I just can't get the words exact to what my H wants. I am not inadequate, I am not stupid, I am a very thoughtful person, and I am very kind to the customer. I value the customer, and try my best to make them comfortable and feel good about our company. But maybe it is that personality type difference between us. This has been happening a lot in the last 3 months when I am in the truck with H and he has me do the calls. He gets on me.<p>You find the good value in your spouse and try to take over the short values of your spouse. I make all the calls for medical appts. for my H. I make all my own medical appts. because he is not good at it. I try to go to all his medical appts. with him, cause he doesn't ask all the questions needed. He is pretty good, but still not as good as I. I try to do all the paperwork, he is not good at it. He is a piler, I am a doer, and filer. Things need to be in their prospective places so that I can find them later. After all, who is the one who calls me to get info. out of the files for him when he is out on a call? He knows I know where it is. I depend on him to make decisions on financial basis, insurance, and computer stuff. Things like that. Why does he put me down. I don't go on and on, I state my view and drop it. <p>What I learned about MB is there are a lot of marriages in trouble. I learned by reading my H posts, he is not remorse or guilty about the affair. He still feels it should of happened. I love the MB books, and counseling. I feel the marriage would work quite well, but it takes 2. I have experienced the hardships of marriage builders not working and some of it working. I love the point that we POJA, I love to say "I would love it if.....". Learning to talk nicely to your spouse is important.<p>I feel our marriage was 50/50. I didn't appreciate his personality, I didn't feel loved by my H, I loved children, I loved being the wife and taking care of our business, I didn't love that H would not go out on a date with me. If I could do it over, there would be many changes. I did put my dad first, H never put me down, he was there for me always. <p>Counseling, I feel was good for H. He found out about himself. I feel MB was good for me. I personally didn't like the counselor we were attending, he never had a game plan for the next week. He stated when we sat down, what should we talk about today. Jennifer doesn't do that. I have a friend that goes to counseling every week. Her counselor summarized the month on what they are going to do, then gives her input each week on what is planned for next week. There was a game plan, and we did not have a game plan. Maybe it is that following the rules sort of thing. And maybe H likes the what should we talk about today?<p>My H cheated on me while we were married. I searched and found out, and H confirmed it. It was a really ugly find. Then to find out 4 months he had sex with the OW too, I threw up when I found that out. <p>The current marriage (I feel) has no safe guard from another affair. I feel H does not love me, he loves the OW. H is here working on his path. I am not sure where the path is or what the path is? I expressed it to Jennifer like that, and I like to follow rules, but it is not visible yet. Just do Plan A until one of us burns out. Which I feel we both are burning out tonight. Our mouths flared up, and feelings flared up? As far as a future marriage, I will never marry again. I will not trust a man with my heart and body ever again. I married for the rest of my life in this marriage and it is sad to see my H write that vows mean nothing to him. This marriage seems in his writtings to have no future. So there is no future marriage for me.<p>H says, I am a good person, I am a hard worker, I am attractive, I am good with the kids. Like interviewing for a job. As you can all read, H has posted the bad about me on the posts. Hurts too much to repeat. I have said many good things about H on the posts. It is sad to see how he feels about me, and feels I don't see any good in him. What hurts too is he seems to write only good stuff about the OW. I asked him to show me where he criticizes the OW, no data as yet. He is unable to find any, cause he doesn't write bad about her, just how wonderful she was! This is hard to deal with, if he hates me that much, and wants out of the marriage that much, why doesn't he just go? Like some of you say, he wants me to be the one to file I guess.<p>Where H says he is far less critical than I am. That is for those of you to decide. I feel I am not that critical. H is more critical. I try to find the good for him to think about. I try to find the good in old people, our kids, and even trying to find the good in dealing with my dads cancer. Therefore, I feel I am not as critical as he. But we could both help each other so we feel good about each other. You know, it is so sad to read in the posts of present that he still doesn't see very much good in me. But the OW fit like hand and glove. They meshed personality, and in-love. He never criticizes her.<p>My H apologized to me about the hurt in an analytical way. Yes, he felt bad that I was hurting. But never has he told me what he did with the other woman was adultery. H still doesn't think of it as adultery. H still doesn't think the affair was bad in itself, but bad that he did it during the marriage. As you can see, he still talks about the OW. I feel H does love her, and there will be no comparison with me that I will fill her shoes like she did to my H. H keeps saying it is hard to stay in this marriage when H had the fitting with the right person. Even in this thread, H states how do you deal with marring the wrong spouse. Like H and OW had everything. Like their life would be all blossoms and no dead buds. I will never have my H back, he doesn't see much in me for a spouse, H will take care of me financially, make my life comfortable, talk to me once in a while. H asks me over and over, what is marriage, why be married, what can I do for you married that I can do for you not married? Is this a man who is talking about keeping his marriage, or one who is trying to get out of a marriage in a gentle way? H stated here he is reluctant to meet my EN's and why do it? Also he states that the fit is how the synergy of the temperments fit. OW and H fit like glove and hand. I guess we fit like hay and pitchfork. Life SUCKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!<p>Like we talked yesterday, why hasn't he done the blood test for sexual transmitted disease since he had sex with the OW? This was in Feb. that he was physically active with OW. Here it is 8 months later. I didn't go on and on. I told him my concern, I told him it would be thoughtful if he had done it earlier. He said, why don't you make the call, and all I said it would be nice if you did. I would if he doesn't, but I didn't have sex with anyone else, so I feel the one that wandered should do it. For reason of knowing what condition they are in, and showing thoughtfulness and concern to their spouse. What a Love deposit that would be. I would praise him over and over if he had willingly said, sure, I'll make the call tomorrow. <p>As far as being a rescuer, I saw a hurt little boy when I was dating H. He talked negatively about his dad, about his mom not being there for him. He wanted it, but had to do with the neighbors dad being there for him. I wanted to be there for him, to help him along his adult hood. To show him a family life, to show him that there were people out there who cared. To become parents and start our family. I hated conflict, H and his mother argued constantly. It was stressful, so I would go into another room or outside.<p>As far as H saying he was sorry. I stated above. But the one thing that H did not say, is when the other woman called me on the phone. I was busy taking calls on business line, told her I was very busy and she didn't care. So I called H mother to watch the phone. OW told me she was sorry, but followed through with she didn't know why she did it, I asked her about her previous sexual affair, and she doesn't know why she did that one either. She went into the manipulation to me of she was going to commit suicide if my H and I told her H. She said she would do this, and that. That she wanted to tell in her own way, and time. When she called me 3 times in 2 weeks to say the same thing over and over, is this telling you they are truly sorry when you follow with suicide? Put the words sorry in first, then blast the BS with suicide to make her feel guilty. She manipulated me severly, the one she hurt. If this woman had any morals to her, she would of not said such a mean thing to me. After all, I didn't have the affair, she did and she has done it with 2 men, and possibly 3. This is her problem and she should of left it with I am sorry, and dropped the subject. Is this the type of woman my H loves a manipulative woman, who demands and lies? Does that make sense. She didn't care about me, didn't care I was working my butt off to make money for our family when she called (she has never worked in her life), didn't care she was intervening in a work office, didn't care she was taking my personal time to manipulate me with suicide, didn't care that when I asked if she had sex with my H she lied? I am still having a hard time with how a good honorable woman can do this to a BS who is severely hurt, and crying her heart out and the kids know as well and having to deal with the family. Her family knows nothing, she has an physical affair with my H, goes back to her H like nothing has happened, got my H money, got my H body, got my H total attention, and can go back to her H and say Hi sweetheart!@!!!!! <p>Anyways, I hope I answer some of your questions.<p>New update on dad, he is having a hard time with getting the words out of his mouth. This is frustrating him severely. It is part of the radiation. Since dads tumor in attached to his frontal lobe, they said he will have short term memory. My dad is pretty negative, and depressed. Medication cannot be given, until radiation is over for depression. We will know this Tuesday what is the game plan. Dr. gave him a few days off, because he is having a hard time with the radiation. The inside of his throat and mouth is sluffing off with burnt tissue. Takes, tylenol 3 for pain and discomfort. Thanks for listening to me. H if you read this, I do love you!<p>[ November 09, 2001: Message edited by: thinker ]<p>[ November 09, 2001: Message edited by: thinker ]</p>

Thinker,<p>I was on my way out and just wanted to post a quick note.<p>First, I am sorry my thread turned into a thread where you feel you had to defend yourself so much.<p>Second, as you talked about what your husband is doing to make you feel inadequate it made me realize you need to concentrate more on those things right now than the things you can't change. For right now, you can't change his skewed thinking on this affair. <p>Through MB one of the things I have learned is there are certain things beyond control in our life which make us victims. However there are many things we do which allow each of us to become a victim. We can change these things. If your husband overwhelms you with too many responsibilities, you have the right to say "no". There is nothing wrong with you saying this. You only need to do as much as you think you should do, no more. If you lay down like a door mat, you will get stepped on.<p>For instance, I allowed my husband to put me in charge of everything he could possibility think of. All domestic things, he did nothing. He didn't even pick up after himself, do his laundry, fold his own clothes or put them away. I did all this. I should have told him "no". I was overwhelmed with everything he gave me to do. I could have limited these things. I should have done things like let his laundry pile up and let him worry about it, but for harmony and peace, I didn't. All the things he put on me I thought I could live with, but what I didn't know about was future the betrayal. All of a sudden I realized I took on all the many responsibilities, just to be beat up. I was a faithful loving wife for all those years. I bragged alot about him, to him. I made some mistakes but I put up with an awful lot during our marriage. For what purpose? To be betrayed. If I would have not let him put so much responsibility on me, maybe for three years I wouldn't have felt so resentful.<p>Reason with SNL this way. If you told SNL to do the dishes then you can't go back and tell him he loaded the dishes wrong. There's more than one way to load. He has his you have yours. Then he could say to you. You want them done your way, then do them your way.<p>The same with the phone calls. SNL wants you to make the phone calls. You have a brain, there is more than one way to talk on the telephone with a customer. He needs to allow you to do the job he just assigned you to do. If he doesn't like it from then on, he can make his own phone calls.<p>I have a question. When you say he goes to the Dr. and you need to come to ask questions he may forget or not know the question to answer. Is this something he wants? Does he like you coming? If he does this is great? However, if he doesn't like it, then you need to let him go on his own. So what if every question isn't answered. Now, I'm not saying he should go on his own. I'm only saying it's his body, if he likes you going with him, fantastic, if not then back off.<p>Well, in the future, I hope we see more post like this. I think more of your every day arguments and things you need help with is more important right now than continuing the argument on him not taking responsibility. Another suggestion, is this. Try this POJA, for the next two weeks, don't discuss OW with husband. Husband doesn't discuss OW with you. Neither one of you discuss affair on MB for two weeks. Instead both you and husband come on MB and discuss every day life problems. I think you guys need a break and time away from OW. I know you both can do this. As we are each in control of own actions. Perhaps in your heart or your mind OW may come up, but try hard not to verbalize it.<p>I hope you take my suggestions.<p>Take care,<p>ANNA<p>P.S.<p>I needed to add one exception on the no talking about affair. If you choose to do this, the exception, of course, would be when SNL talks to Steve.<p>[ November 09, 2001: Message edited by: Anna2000 ]</p>

Anna - H doesn't mind me going to the Dr. with him. He actually stated to the dematologist, ask my wife, she know more than me. This is my expertese, he knows medical stuff too (he was a paramedic), but he doesn't remember everything about his past, surgeries, and etc. I guess it would be helpful to print out a sheet, and that way he could take it with him. I was thinking of doing this with each kid. <p>I would love for my H to go with me, but he doesn't. It is a connection, a closeness, a bonding. Just to have him with me on my Dr. visits would be a big Love Bank deposit. I am not a loner.<p>I mentioned to him today to do the calls himself, response was not very good. I do take on a lot of responsiblity. I get criticized, and would be nice if he apologized for tonight, and words afterwards. We'll see. <p>I do not want to be a doormat to him or to anyone. I am a human with feelings, TLC and caring. He says he is a high maintanence person, what about his spouse? <p>As far as talking about the OW, you see he posts about her. Yes we are not to talk about her, except with Steve. It is hard, and I read the stuff on my posts about the OW, and it is hard. Talk to you later.<p>[ November 09, 2001: Message edited by: thinker ]</p>

Thinker, <p>the biggest problem you two are having is differing communication styles. the book even identifies it and i am a testiment to that. <p>If both of you can't take the time to learn and accept how the other one communicates, you will make no progress. If you don't learn to have patience with the other person, which for SNL is rather hard because the thoughts come very quickly and precisely, there will be no progress.<p>Thinker, one of the book suggested ways for SNL to communicate with you is on paper. My X always asked me write it down, and I never understood why. Finally, i understand it, because thinking is your least attribute, and responding to the written word allows you to have time to gather your thoughts and respond more thoroughly. That is the way you are made, and X even has responded to me that she must not react to feelings, but must try to think through her response.<p>However, you must also stand up for yourself, and not overly function in the relationship. SNL has figured out a way to always ask you to do work for him. This may have come through tradition that you have been nice to him. Hoever, you must not accept the request if you feel the acceptance will set you up for failure. take your time in answering yes or no, do not just answer yes out of perceived duty. If you don't speak well enough for SNL, then don't volunteer to speak for him. Tell him that you decline and suggest that he speak for himself. Thinker, you will tend to want to put him first ahead of your needs, then realize that you are over your head, and get hurt. He will get you all riled up, and you need to slow down to allow processing time, and unwinding time from your family situation right now.<p>now i know that disrespect is running very high right now, and care and protection are running very low, and each of you needs to protect yourself, ie withdraw from putting yourself in the line of the other's fire. This withdrawal will help slow down the opportunities for hurt, and demand a little respect for thinker. <p>However, Thinker you must also figure out a way to say the following words to SNL, so that he hear's you most clearly.<p>"SNL, i feel very __________ when you criticize me for making your phone calls. Please do not criticize me when i am helping you or write down what you want me to say so i can read it. If you continue to criticize me, i will not be helping you out any more. thank you."<p>this puts the request as to your feeling response to his actions. It does not blame him, you need to remember not to blame him at all, just inform him of your feelings. It also puts up a boundary of what you will accept and what you won't. This statement may be very difficult to say, so write it down, practice it, and have the paper handy for the next time you need to use it.<p>An additional problem here is that SNL does not take actions or requests very personally, they will be like orders. Thinker will take the requests or reactions very personally, and the confusing and huritng will start. Therefore, thinker, you have the control of saying yes or no, to his responses, and try to only accept requests that you know you can complete successfully.<p>good luck,
and i realize both of you have tons of work to do if you want to find some happiness.<p>WIFTTy