anna <p>check your email

TR,<p>I just emailed you.<p>ANNA

I'd like to apologize here..I wasn't in away meaning these women weren't intelligent..
but that maybe they were made to feel as if
they weren't, and made to feel they couldn't carry on conversations..which is totally different..<p>But any way I am very sorry for any misinterpretations..

Ms. O,<p>I just wanted to say those were excellent answers. Thanks for your insight as to the difference MB has made in your life.<p>Take care,<p>ANNA

WhenIFind... - I like taking the service calls that come in. I have mastered a good talking technique that is both comforting and educational to the customer. It is when H asks me to make a return call, and he states he wants this and that said, I don't do it exactly like he wants I guess! I don't volunteer to do these calls, he states he doesn't want to talk to the customer.
H and I discussed this a little last night, and says he is educating me. I feel so inadequate when he starts out why why why! I hear what he has to say and try to form my conversation in my head. But it doesn't seem to be what he wants. As far as writting it down, he won't write it down, I have to. So I guess I will have to, to get it right. H is not a patient teacher, and is one of his downfalls. Patience would be appreciated at this point.

Thinker, <p>this example is where you have to set a boundary. If he does not respect your learning capabilities, or is impatient, or uncooperative, you simply decline the job.<p>What is happening is that you are trying to be cooperative, and yet the situation starts off is difficult for you to succeed. If he is not going to write it down, you are not going to do the call back. This response is setting a boundary, is saying this setup is what i need or i can't comply, i can't be successful.<p>A weakness with ESFJs is that they want to be helpful, yet they don't always have the abilities to see when a situation is not a good one to get into. they want to get good feedback, so they follow blindly without thinking through the ramifications of the current situation.<p>I suggest that you sit down and write down how you want your H to treat you. When he does not treat you according to the way you decide upon, you go on Wife Strike. You initiate a job action that you won't cooperate under these living conditions. unions do it, so can you.<p>you have to tell him ahead of time how you want to be treated, and then if he doesn't you don't cooperate. you see, you have more power than you realize, you just don't use it correctly and at the right time.<p>Do not whine about it, do not blame, just stop what you are doing, and let him know you are not going to take this treatment, and you will return when he respects your boundaries.<p>now it is simple to talk about, but hard to do, but give it a try, talk directly to H, do not make excuses, DO NOT ask or expect an apology. you should get one, but it is not your place to tell someone how to act. it is your place to tell someone how you are reacting and then responding.<p>now, how does that sound? easy or difficult? fair or unfair? and may i ask, are you working for him in a home based business? if so, this complicates your relationship in that it has a second dimension, a work, non-love base relationship, and the two are hard to keep separate.<p>let me know what you think,<p>WIFTTy

wifty... are you working for him in a home based business? if so, this complicates your relationship in that it has a second dimension, a work, non-love base relationship, and the two are hard to keep separate.<p>snl...Yes she is, and it does complicate stuff. I just observed this morning (as we try to resolve this issue) that she takes this all to personal and is just business (not for the first time), but it is hard to get her not to make everything about her personally. Anyways where is the part about the H strike?

Wiffty - Yes this is a home based operation. H does heating and a/c work. I have been going on calls with him to give us time to talk, and bond. So yes, this is hard to do on a business atmosphere thing. This morning was good, I am feeling overwhelmed by all the paperwork. H helped me put papers in piles, I started making out checks for bills, H worked on parts of the paperwork to help me. It was nice, it felt like a team. H asked to go out for a business dinner meeting. So we packed up calculator, books, and papers and scissors, and are going to have a meeting later. I will really enjoy this, organizing is important to me and to H. H just is not motivated as much as I. Thanks for listening.
Thanks for the advice on how to handle the phone calls.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> I have been going on calls with him to give us time to talk, and bond. <hr></blockquote><p>although laudible, mixing business and pleasure complicates the relationship as the boundaries where one stops and the other starts is blurry or non existant. I suggest that you try to keep the two separate, in other words, assigned jobs, accountant, admin assistant, operations and manager. .. . etc.<p>second, working hours need to be POJA, meaning, when are work hours stopped and home hours started. very important, because again, not being clear and consistent is difficult to know when business stops and marriage starts. crucial here.<p>SNL, as the dominant leader in the household, generally the striking powers are given not to management, but to the workers. management is assumed to be smart, efficient, and goal oriented by making plans, having budgets and a strategy. or basically, A PLAN! otherwise, they go out of business because they lose their competitive advantage of a good workforce with competitive wages, and a supportive team effort.<p>Look at Enron, bad management practices, and the top management are out on the streets, nothing to do with the workers, all to do with the business plans and top management.<p>Make sure you are showing leadership and teach them teamwork so that they can be a competitive advantage, otherwise, when the econoyy goes south or a better competitor comes into the market, you could lose everything!<p>WIFTTy

lest i forget<p>the workers are entitled to see and examine the business plan of management, including the mission statement, the strategy and the annual and quarterly goals. Workers are also kept abreast of all changes in plans, and financial conditions, at minimum on a quarterly basis.<p>good luck<p>WIFTTy

snl and thinker,<p>Wiftty made some very good points. I would just like to add this. First, Snl, What are your thoughts regarding your wife in terms of your business? Is your wife a partner or is she an employee? Also, Thinker, How do consider your role in the business, as a partner or an employee? There has to be an agreement on this.<p>This became a problem with my husband and I. I perceived and remembered us agreeing to be partners in the beginning of the business, not an employee. However, unknown to me he changed his view somewhere along the line and considered me to be an employee. I should have got this in writing. This was afterall a business and I should have handled it as a business. We each had our duties. Usually, I was in charge and took care of all financials, payroll and every day office task. For the most part he stayed out of this. He handled the outside sales, and employees. It wasn't until the company started becoming more larger he informed me I was an employee, he was my boss. Well, this didn't go over very well with me. I had always thought he considered me an equal partner. I know it was all about him wanting to control me. I took this very personal though, as I knew he couldn't have done this business without me and neither could I without him. I hope you guys have a better understanding of each others role.<p>Also, either way, SNL, if you consider yourself the manager or boss, you need to realize a successful manager deligates duties and let's that person do their job the way they feel it should be done. There should be a head person in charge of field activities and a head person in charge of office activities. You shouldn't tell her how to do the job you delicate to her and she shouldn't tell you how to do your job. Also, you need to take a good look at how you treat your wife, to make sure treat her the same way you would treat a valuable employee you want to keep.<p>One more piece of advice. If it is working for both of you to go out in the field together, great! However, working with my husband 24 hours a day, I know, you both need "me" time to get away from each other. Be sure not to neglect this.<p>Take care,<p>ANNA<p>[ November 10, 2001: Message edited by: Anna2000 ]</p>

Hi all,<p>I decided even though I am not a veteran, It would only be fair if I answered questions I ask others. So's here's my answers.

1. What did you learn about yourself since you came to MB, both the positive things and the negative things?

Positive things...I'm going to make it through this divorce as a better person.<p>Negative things...My biggest fault is being too impatient.

2. What did you learn about the things you did personally which were wrong in your marriage, and you think may have made your marriage better?

I had lack of respect in many areas, lack of understanding and patience. I was stubborn and pigheaded at times.<p>I never minded being spontaneous, stbx did mind. When he put responsibilities on me regarding things that didn't matter to me, such as telling him plans in advance or reminding him every day of these plans. I should have gave the responsibility back to him, and let him do his own schedule. Which basically the last couple of years, I did. <p>Also, when I thought he was giving me his responsibilities such doing his laundry, I should have been more consistent in giving this responsibility back.

3. What approximate percentage of fault do you feel you have for the condition your marriage was in before she/he cheated on you? or If you cheated what percentage of fault do you feel you had for the condition your marriage was in before you cheated?

Since there was no cheating I'll change this to what percentage before his betrayal of abuse. (just wondering why I asked this question now... [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img] I don't know if any person can really assess this accurately.) Ok, I think I would have to say 40 me/60 him. There was lack of respect and understanding. However the additional 10% on his side came from him having alcohol and drug addictions as well as depression and rage problems. These things he usually blamed on his childhood.

4. If you went to counseling. <p> A. How did you grow as a person through counseling?

One main thing counseling taught me was my mother may not have been the perfect role model I always thought she was. She was still great and I admire her no less but something I never looked at, was her example taught me to stay in a marriage no matter how badly a person is treated.<p>Also, going and getting different opinions, the Pyshcologists all confirmed to me pschologically my brain has ended my marriage and they all doubted I could ever feel safe in this marriage again. Something I did a great deal of assurance on is they also assured me with the right person, my personality could feel safe and loved again.<p>Al-anon which to me is a form of counseling taught me to take time each day for "me" time. To also argue more affective and to know when a person is drunk the best thing you can do for yourself is never argue with them no matter how much they try.<p> B. Did counseling help more than MB or MB more than counseling?

Definitely MB helped more. It helped me to see more of who I was, through research at MB and also other websites to learn we all make are own decisions. We are each in control of our own actions and how we react to other's is our own choice. For instance no one can make me do something I don't want to do, if I don't want to do it then I need to say "no".

5. If you were the betrayed spouse...Did spouse cheat on you while you were together, started relationships while separated or divorced then dated?

Since there was physical abuse it doesn't really apply. Although to admit it was a good thing we broke up. I may have gave in to temptation if the right person would have come along. I think when a person is betrayed in anyway, there is always a feeling of wanting revenge. Sometimes I did think he took away my rights that day, maybe if I were unfaithful it would even the score. However, nothing can even a score of betrayal. This was really wrong thinking and I'm now glad I can always say I left the marriage a faithful wife.

6. If you were a wayward spouse. <p> A. What changes have you made in your thinking or attitude to insure an affair in your current marriage or future marriage will never happen again?

N/A

B. Did you ever apologize to the people you hurt and tell them why you felt what you did
was so wrong?
N/A

7. What would your spouse say about you, both the good and bad?

good. I am a very good mother. Up until three years ago before the physical abuse I was also a good spouse. <p>bad. Main thing...that I am probably cheating on him because he's such a great guy there's no way I could be wanting him to leave just because of physical abuse. Afterall, I always put up with it before. I wanted to much control over myself, especially, after the attack. No respect for him as a financial provider. Also recently he says I've always been a liar. I asked him what I lied about and he says all those times I failed to tell him about school events or sports events the children had until the last day was me lying because I knew all along I just wanted to munipulate him into going to these. Weird though, I knew all along it was easier to get him to go if I told him in advance. I would just forget. Lastly, he says I have hidden agendas. All the times I was nice now or then, there must be an agenda he doesn't know about.<p>Ok, there's my answers. Whewww!!! It's tough answering these. Especially being honest about the bad things your spouse says about you, especially the things they say which you know are so incorrect.<p>Take care,<p>ANNA<p>[ November 11, 2001: Message edited by: Anna2000 ]</p>

Well, I've been here at MB since July of 2000. I don't really consider myself a "veteran," but I'm not new either. Anyway, here goes...<p>1. What did you learn about yourself since you came to MB, both the positive things and the negative things?<p>I could write a book! On the negative side, I learned that I was insensitive to the EN's of others. On the positive side, I learned I was much stronger emotionally than I ever thought I could be.<p>
2. What did you learn about the things you did personally which were wrong in your marriage, and you think may have made your marriage better?<p>I took the marriage for granted, and didn't see the signs of trouble at all. If I saw them, I wrote them off as minor problems that would "work themselves out." If I could go back and change things, I would have dragged us both to counseling the moment I heard the "I love you/I'm not in love with you" speech...November of '99, BTW.<p>
3. What approximate percentage of fault do you feel you have for the condition your marriage was in before she/he cheated on you?<p>I don't know if I can put a percentage on it, but I feel equally responsible, to be sure. Coming from a family where divorce almost never happened, I was oblivious to the notion that she might not be willing to stay with the marriage. Again, I took things for granted, and didn't work hard enough on meeting her needs. By the same token, she held back her true feelings, and suppressed her doubts about the marriage. I guess if I could sum it up in one sentence it would be: I ignored her silent cries for help.<p>
4. If you went to counseling. <p>A. How did you grow as a person through counseling? <p>B. Did counseling help more than MB or MB more than counseling?<p>She went to a counselor a few weeks before she moved out. The counselor more or less encouraged her to leave me..."whatever makes you feel good" was the advice, if I recall.<p>I went to a psychiatrist after she filed. I don't know if I "grew" at all, since he told me that I was basically a happy, mentally healthy guy going through a difficult time. It was reassuring to me personally, but cold comfort.<p>I'd say MB has both helped and hindered me. It has helped me understand the mind of the WS, and given me the tools I need to make my next relationship better. It also showed me that I was not alone. It hindered me because I think MB perhaps offers too much hope. MB can be a great tool if both spouses participate, but I don't know how effective it is in stopping someone as hell-bent on divorce as my XW. When I first found this place, I thought "ahh, I can single-handedly save my marriage!" It is easy to get caught up in that idea. Unfortunately, in my case, it had nothing to do with reality.<p>
5. If you were the betrayed spouse...Did spouse cheat on you while you were together, started relationships while separated or divorced then dated?<p>Cheated while we were together, and moved out a month after the start of the affair. <p>
7. What would your spouse say about you, both the good and bad?<p>Good? She'd say that I'm an all-around nice guy, and that I deserve someone just like me. Bad? I'm boring (I spend too much time reading), I'm too quiet, and I don't have enough "passion" for her taste.<p>[ November 11, 2001: Message edited by: cjack ]</p>

cjack,<p>I loved your answers and you really did a lot of soul searching on what went wrong in your marriage. I think you are right, your next marriage will be awesome.<p>Your wife says you are too boring, too quiet and you don't have enough passion for her...I think possibly she just didn't know how to bring the passionate side of you out. [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] BTW, you can tell her Anna says this if you like. [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Take care,<p>ANNA<p>[ November 11, 2001: Message edited by: Anna2000 ]</p>

Thanks, Anna. I'm still soul-searching over all of this!<p>On the "passion" issue: You may be partially right. I think each of us is passionate in our own way, yet others do not always see or appreciate it. Passion manifests itself in different ways. For example:<p>I love thrill rides. I head straight to the biggest rollercoaster or the wildest ride at the park. I've been skydiving, flown aerobatics in a stunt plane, and driven a Winston Cup car at 150+mph. My XW is the total opposite. Whenever we went to the State Fair, I always rode alone, and I resented the fact that she didn't share my love for adrenaline.<p>On the other hand, she almost always got mad at me when we went to concerts. She would scream, yell, and try to get as close to the stage as possible. That was her idea of fun: go to a rock show and go crazy.<p>I like to be quiet and enjoy the show. That always drove her nuts.<p>At the beach, she would lie quietly in the sun, only occasionally wading ankle-deep into the ocean. I couldn't stand sitting still, and would swim out as far as I dared.<p>So it wasn't that she was "wild and crazy" and I was "quiet and boring." Rather, it was an issue of how we expressed our passionate sides. <p>I think that in order to bring out the passion in another person, you must first understand and appreciate that person's passions.<p>
p.s. I had never looked at abuse as a betrayal before. That is an eye-opening viewpoint, to say the least, yet it makes a great deal of sense. From what little I've read, your H seems to follow the pattern pretty well: Abuse you, then tear you down verbally so you think that you had it coming. So many people ignore the context of physical abuse. It's not just the bruises that hurt, but the verbal and mental beating that always goes hand in hand with such behavior that are so harmful to the victims. I'm glad you got out of there when you did.

CJack,<p>Just to let you know I am doing much better tonight. Thanks for posting on the other thread. You were tired but still were considerate enough to get a post out. This says an awful lot about what a great person you must be.<p>I wanted to respond back to your comments also. You sound like the "coolest bore" I've ever met! SHeesh! With all the things you have done, I would think you would have some great stories to tell during dinnertime. You know even if you are quiet, I'll bet another thing, she was so busy talking about herself she didn't have time to listen or have any idea of how to ask the right questions to get you interested in talking. Am I right?<p>Also, I hate going crazy at concerts too, I'm with you, just sit back and listen to the music. Also, you are right, if you can't enjoy what someone else is doing, then enjoy watching them do it. hmmm? I'm beginning to think she was the boring one. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Take care,<p>ANNA<p>[ November 12, 2001: Message edited by: Anna2000 ]</p>

cjack,<p>so did you know these divergent passions before you got married? if you did, why did you marry her?<p>in other words, a betrayal can take many forms, the most common, yet most unnoticed, is a person who is not honest prior to marriage, meaning, s/he does not show you the real person, who hides behind being nice, and then changes after marriage to show new behaviors and actions.<p>This betrayal happened to me, right after the marriage, she changed although slow and subtly, she changed from a nice, going a long with me, doing stuff for me and with me, to criticism and fear of doing stuff, and just plain frustration while coping with daily life. <p>If you read around, alot of people saw these signs, but they were so small compared to the new behavior, that the signs were thought to be insignificant. This is the most subtle betrayal, and yet the most common, in my opinion.<p>infidelities are big and well known, the others are betrayals of care and protection, of honesty and openness, and communication.

wiftty,<p>Just some thoughts and questions regarding your post to CJack.<p>Are you asking this question to CJack because if he did see signs he can hopefully look out for those in his next marriage? Also, if he didn't see signs perhaps he can date another person longer to look for signs she may be trying to fool him into thinking she is something she is not? These are all good signs to watch for in new relationships, but is I'm curious if there are other reasons I am missing for him to be looking at why he married her. <p>I think often each of us change and grow and not many people do stay the same through there marriage. It's not deception it's just life, growing older and experiences we have that change us. <p>You said your wife's changes were subtle and slow. Have you researched the possibility she did not lie or munipulate you in this way, but she was just growing in her own way, life itself changes people. Becoming a wife and a mother and through life's experiences these will all make a person look at life differently and have new values. As a spouse in marriage I think it's important for us to realize, people do not stay the same forever and as a spouse we may have to adjust to these changes often. <p>Here's my own experience with changing, perhaps it will give you a new perspective. I see how I am a totally different person than when I met my husband as I am sure a lot of people see they are different also. My interest are very different and even my personality to a degree is different. Most people aren't trying to set out to munipulate someone in to marrying them and then changing, it's just part of growing as a person. I met my husband at a very young age. I was going through the partying, going out to bars with him stage. It wasn't long after we married I didn't want to do this anymore. The main reason is I saw what alcohol was doing to our relationship. Also, I was growing up and I felt he wasn't growing. For years we were on the wrong page together. As the years went by I changed more and more. Today, I am a TOTALLY different person than when we first met. I see very little of me and my interest now in the person I used to be. <p>When my husband and I first met, I loved to go to concerts and dance and scream, to go out dancing, things in life that meant things to me like rock stars, movie stars and so forth, going to parties, being with groups of people, mean nothing to me now. I had no fear when I first met him, I would have done things that were grazy and sometimes dangerous and now certain life experiences plus having children and being more responsible, I do not do the things I did then. Sure I still like having fun but most of the things I like now are so different from then, I like listening to the sounds of the ocean at the beach while reading a book, going fishing and sitting in a boat for hours and hours, listening to the calmness of the lake, going to dinner and to a movie, sitting at home and just hanging out with someone you love. I do like experiencing new things, going new places but things I want to experience now are so different from even 10 years ago. I can look back and say I have changed every year of my life to some extent. Just because I or others change through marriage, does not make a person someone who deceived or lied about who they were, it just makes me a human being who grew up and is still growing. <p>I can during our marriage, for many years we were not on the same page together. He still liked doing the old things for many years after I lost interest.<p>I do however know two people, one directly, one indirectly through a friend, who did set out to munipulate the person by pretending to be something they weren't. The difference in these two people is their changes came immediately after they were married. I think this is typical of people like that, once they get what they want, then they relax and show there true colors fairly quickly.<p>I do see your point on trying to see what went wrong to minimize are risk of not letting it happen in future relationships. I think dating someone for a long period of time and looking for signs of deception would help minimize this risk. Although, of course I'm sure you would agree too, it would serve no purpose for Cjack or anyone else to continue to be angry or bitter towards their exwife if they did feel there was hidden motives. This would only be hurting themselves by harboring such resentment.<p>Take care,<p>ANNA<p>[ November 13, 2001: Message edited by: Anna2000 ]</p>

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by WhenIfindthetime:
<strong>cjack,<p>so did you know these divergent passions before you got married? if you did, why did you marry her?<p></strong><hr></blockquote><p>
First off, let me say that there were quite a few things we had in common, as well. My earlier post may have made it seem like we were total opposites, which we weren't.<p>However, we did have different "passions," and we were both well aware of that fact going into the marriage. We had lived together for 2 years prior to getting married, so I don't think that I was surprised or betrayed in that regard. In fact, part of what attracted me to her was the fact that she was so different.<p>As Anna pointed out, people change. Sometimes marital problems arise when one spouse cannot accept the changes in their partner. In my case, it was my XW who could not accept the changes in herself!<p>Anna, you said: "When my husband and I first met, I loved to go to concerts and dance and scream, to go out dancing, things in life that meant things to me like rock stars, movie stars and so forth, going to parties, being with groups of people, mean nothing to me now... most of the things I like now are so different from then, I like listening to the sounds of the ocean at the beach while reading a book, going fishing and sitting in a boat for hours and hours, listening to the calmness of the lake, going to dinner and to a movie, sitting at home and just hanging out with someone you love."<p>That was exactly what was happening to my XW. She was becoming older, more sedate, more mature (I thought), and less like she was in her younger, wilder days.<p>It all started to fall apart when she reunited with some of her old high school friends, including the OM. She realized that she missed the person she used to be, and began to believe she could re-capture those feelings. However, as she has found out, you can't go back in time 15 years and hope to stay there!

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by cjack:
<strong><p>It all started to fall apart when she reunited with some of her old high school friends, including the OM. She realized that she missed the person she used to be, and began to believe she could re-capture those feelings. However, as she has found out, you can't go back in time 15 years and hope to stay there!</strong><hr></blockquote><p>Cjack,<p>That sounds like a midlife crisis to me! <p>For me, I do not ever want to go back to those years. I think they were definitely my childish, not knowing what life was really about, years.<p>Gotta get back to my BORING job search. Anyone reading this in the Houston area looking for a great person to work for them, please type here!!! [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>c'ya,<p>ANNA