Another morning, another heartache<p>H comes on in the house this morning. How many times do I have to say not to. Definately time to change the locks. In fact, it's time to change the locks on my heart too. <p>I called him this morning and asked him once again to stay away. I told him that I only had 2 weeks until the court hearing and that I needed that time totally away from him in order to figure out how to stop caring about him.<p>He apologized for coming in. He was excited about son's birthday today. I explained that when he left home, he lost the right to be part of our daily lives. Up until now, I had made things very convienent for him, but if I was truly moving on with my life and accepting the finality of HIS decision, I could not see him or even hear his voice.<p>From now on, he is just the schoolbus.<p>I'm getting that book today. I also think that I might start going to the singles class at church. Not to find a mate, but to just develop some friendships with people in similar situations. <p>Plan B will not bring him home. Plan B really is for me. I was approaching it all wrong. If I can just get him out of my life, then maybe I can get him out of my head and eventually out of my heart. Wish me luck!!!<p>PP

OH PP!
I understand just what you are feeling. My H and I are still living under the same roof, but I am trying to get my head and heart to realize what is happening and it is really hard!<p>I really have no advice to offer, I just wanted to make a comment about your last post. When you say he gave up the right to participate in your daily lives. You are right, he did. But, please consider how you are going to give your CHILDREN their rights in having a dad. <p>Your son's father is excited about his birthday! This is a wonderful thing. Many kids whose dad's do what your H did are just as happy to leave the kids as they are the wife. The fact that your H is still in the kids' lives is so important. <p>I try to think of my H (I still can't write STBX), as my children's father. He loves them even if he doesn't love me. They love him. They need him. He can be a person in their lives that I cannot be. I want him to be that person for them. <p>That is one of the things that makes this whole stinking mess so hard - I will always have him in my life because I will always allow him to be in theirs. I cannot do otherwise. <p>It is like knocking the scab off over and over. But, it will get better. The scab will get stronger. It will be one of those scabs that leaves a scar, but that will fade too. I imagine us at events down the road - like high school graduation, weddings, births of grandchildren... (my oldest is 11, so you can see I am really stretching here). It is not a scary feeling. It is a warm feeling. It is still a family, seperated by divorce, but whole in the love of their children. <p>Your children are a gift to both of you. God will give you the grace and strength to share them with him. Bless you.<p>Mary

Thanks Mary,<p>I thought the same thing when I wrote that. I don't want to keep him from his kids but I have to find a way that allows their relationship to flourish but not destroy my ability to stand alone and find happiness. During the summer he would go 4-5 days without calling and if I add up all the time he spent with them, it would be less than 48 hours. I had to pretty much state a good reason if I needed him to take them to childcare this summer. Now that school is back in, he has picked taking them to school as his duty. <p>He told me 2 weeks ago that taking them to school and seeing me for a few minutes every morning was the highlight of his day. Yet, he is living with OW and she participates completely in every thing they do during the times he has the kids.<p>He wants me in his life but on his terms. I still love him dearly and even though he has done these terrible things and broken my trust, I would still love the chance to try to repair our marriage. He never gave it a chance and still refuses too. Therefore, I have no choice but to move on. I can't allow myself to be pulled down by seeing him. <p>He is a good father, except he tries to buy their love rather than truly parenting. In fact, he really isn't a great parent. He is a great friend and provider. When it comes to discipline, he never has known what to do or how to follow through on proposed punishment. <p>I also see the future, (and our oldest will be 11 in Feb) and I wonder about all the events that will take place. I even wrote in a letter to OW (which she never saw) that she was ridiculous for expecting us to get mutual restraining orders because we would both be participants in our children's lives as long as the Good Lord allowed us to.<p>I just have to find a way to control my feelings and learn not to love him so much. I need some time to get over him before I'm going to be comfortable with him being at my house everyday. If I move to another neighborhood after the divorce is he going to follow me there too? This is his decision and so far he hasn't suffered much due to it. He moved in with OW and she provides his needs. I don't demand financial support or anything else from him. I allowed myself for months to be his best friend even though he lied and cheated. <p>Why should I make it so easy for him? Just venting sorry...

I understand your venting. You need to. Every point you make is valid and you need to feel these feelings in order to move past them. <p>The only thing I can offer (which may or may not be helpful) is to try and think of it as "making it easy" on your kids, instead of making it easy on him. They need to know he loves them and is not rejecting them. It sounds like, by your description, of him buying affection and not being a good disciplinarian that he doesn't really know how to love them. So you have to allow him in their lives on YOUR TERMS - not his. <p>If he wants to play the role of "weekend dad" "Goodtime Charlie" that will work for a while (I mean kids love it to a point), but it won't work for long. They will get it. They will know who is really there for them. The important thing is that you let them figure it out in their time. <p>If the OW is involved in every visit and interaction, all I can say is "THAT SUCKS"! But, there is nothing you can do about it except paste that happy face on that you have become so familiar with. They will figure it out. <p>I hate it that you are going thru this. His comment of a couple of weeks ago about ya'll being the hightlight of his day is telling. Keep it that way. Keep it so that he feels like he is only getting a glimpse of what is really important and special. You be in charge (lovingly in charge) of his schedule with the kids. You may even need to guide him in what you need - like support for your decisions. Tell him. Tell him in writing if you have to. Be strong for them. They need you.<p>Best,
Mary

I'm going to be a bit contrarian here. I am very leery of the idea that trying to kill love is a good thing to do. I'm all for being positive and forward-looking and proactive, and I don't think there's anything to be gained from wallowing in misery. But it seems to me that the price for burying pain is often higher than the price for experiencing the pain itself.<p>I haven't read the book mentioned here, but I have seen similar books. There is certainly a place for breaking an addiction to a person, but I'm not at all sure that that's the same thing as "falling out of love".<p>I love my wife and I pray for her daily. We lived together long enough that anything and everything can trigger memories. Mostly good ones.<p>Should I stop praying for my wife? Should I try to call up bad memories instead of good? Should I cultivate hatred or indifference toward her?<p>What would that do to me? Would that really make the pain go away, or would it just shunt it aside, burying it somewhere that it can eat at me from deeper within.<p>If I were to lose my arm in an accident, my appropriate response would be to give the injury time to heal, and to learn to live my life without that arm. I don't think it would be helpful for me to tell myself that my arm was never really that good in the first place, and that I am better off without it.<p>If love is not unconditional, then in my opinion it isn't really love. If I cannot believe in my own capacity to love unconditionally, God helping, then how can I believe in love at all? How can I expect from others what I myself refuse to give? I intend to keep loving my wife, and to live my life as best I can while my feelings run whatever course they may.<p>I think it is far more important to control actions and attitudes than feelings.

GnomeDePlume,<p>That was a wonderful response. <p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>If love is not unconditional, then in my opinion it isn't really love.<hr></blockquote><p>I agree completely.

Gnome<p>I love my H and I have found out just how much and how unconditionally by going through this experience. I suppose I will always love him but to coin a phrase most of us hate, I want to be able to love him but not be "in love" with him anymore. Apparently this happened to my H in his relationship with me but I don't know how to get to the same point. <p>I am often filled with the idea that I will never be truly happy again unless we get back together. I feel robbed because he didn't give me the chance to work on meeting his needs. <p>I was very emotional the night I originally posted here on this topic and at the time, I just wanted the pain of missing him and our future to stop. I don't know how to do this. I could move on and emotionally invest in another man but that has it's own set of problems too. I could just dive headfirst into my work but without someone to share in the joy of my accomplishments, it all seems useless. I want to become a better parent and I am focusing more on that area of my life. However, by not having any of my own emotional needs met, I am having a hard time being a "happy" enough person. It may sound silly and a few months from now, I might re-read this and laugh at myself but I'm in a funk right now. Even the things I enjoy the most, including church, work and my children mean very little to me when I can't share the pride and love they pride into my life. I want to have someone to tell the "funny thing Austin said" or " you won't believe what she's done now." <p>Everyone I know is married. I have no real support system because I lost it last year during major problems at work. I have serious trust issues with people since my best friends and my husband have all betrayed me in the past 12 months. <p>I know, poor pitiful me. I am aware that I don't really have it so bad. At least I have a job and a house and two healthy children. I have my faith in the Good Lord and I know that long-term I will be ok. Things will work out. I've just been consumed lately with how to survive day to day. <p>Seeing my H every school morning was dragging me down. It made me miss him so much more and also allowed him to use me to fulfill his EN of friendship and conversation. <p>When I started Plan B, I tried to avoid him by getting in the shower, leaving when he got there etc, but just hearing his voice is enough to send me into a minor depression and tailspin.<p>I'm a bit angry at myself because I see the reality of what he has done and what he is doing and what he is allowing to happen in the future, but my heart still refuses to let go.<p>Clinging on to him and my feelings for him by denying the truth is slowly destroying me and my self-esteem. I'm afraid of entering into any new relationships because if I'll allow myself to be treated this way by him, what does my future hold. I am mainly disappointed in myself for continually making excuses for his behavior. <p>I expect it to take years for me to stop loving him and longing for him. I am also a bit afraid of that too because once we are divorced, I think I'll use him in my life to meet some of the needs that I can't use him for now. I know that sounds shallow and I hope it doesn't come true. I'm just afraid he will have this power and hold over my emotions forever and I will never truly be able to move on.<p>I am doing my best to leave it to God and vent here when I need to talk about it. The people here on this forum are the greatest. <p>Thanks so much for reminding me it is ok to care. I just have to learn to care but move on.<p>PP

Hi there-<p>I have been reading this for awhile and I agree a lot with what the people are saying. The thing I agree with the most and the thing I feel is the hardest to do is to let go and let God. As humans we are so convinced we can change things, especially where our spouses are concerned, that we end up beating our heads against a wall with less than appealing results. When we turn the problem over to God we get rid of a lot of stress. We all know by now that as unfair as it is, we can only change ourselves so we must focus on that. When we do our lives get better, they might not be exactly where we want them, but they do get better.<p>I can relate with so many of the things you say. It is hard to be left by a spouse especially when they don't want to work on fixing things. When my H left I was devastated. I wanted with all my heart to work things out. He might have caused me a lot of pain, but he was my husband and the father of my four children. He however has ignored every attempt to work on things. So I have stopped trying and am focusing on me.<p>Now as I work through things and realize just how little control I have on him I am finding myself again. You know what? I really like me and I realize that I haven't felt that way in a long time. My H has many issues, which have manifested in alcolholism. I became so absorbed in his problems that I lost me. As painful as this has been on me I am seeing positive results. It is all a process of growth. Remember also that as humans we don't always want what is best for us. Only god knows that.<p>Hang in there. Focus on you. We are here for you.<p>K

Okay, it took me all day in between work and stuff to read this thread, but it has helped me tremendously! I am facing a very similar situation. We do not have children, but between friends, family, nieces & nephews we are forced to see each other enough.<p>I have just recently realized that I am better off not to see him or talk to him unless it is absolutely necessary. I was constantly trying to find excuses to call him or see him. <p>I ordered the book that AGMIT talks about and bought another one at the bookstore, similar in title. <p>PP, I understand exactly how you feel. The ups and downs of emotions make me sick. I also know that in the long-run I will be okay. It is just getting through everyday that is hard. Giving up the hopes and dreams and making new one is hard to do. <p>You will be in my thoughts and prayers!

<small>[ August 05, 2004, 11:43 PM: Message edited by: laura_lee ]</small>

PP - I started reading your post because I felt so sorry for you and wanted to tell you something that would cheer you up, but as I continued to read I saw that you got past the low point that initiated the post in the first place, which is good. However, I'm sure that even though you hit that very low point and have climbed back up a bit it's still not easy for you. I say that because I have been experiencing the same thing. I desperately wish I could stop feeling the love I do for my husband but I can't. Things started becoming much easier for me though after I had two awakenings:
1. I read Dr. Phil McGraw's book Life Strategies. It really helped me to look at ME for a change and MY LIFE. It helped me to see what I have to do to make myself happier. I highly recommend this book!
2. A counselor told me to quit trying to will God to make things happen the way I want . . . instead I need to let God's will lead my life the way HE wants.
I hope this helps you some. Please feel free to e-mail me as I truly am experiencing what you're going through.
God Bless!

PP-I can feel you like you are my twin.<p>It's been past more than 2yrs from D-day and 4months from divorce but I am still in love with my ex-and you know what is wrong: he is completely aware of that and the fact that I'll be waiting for him till death.<p>BUT I am aware of the fact that Laura is probably right: when I give up from clinging, crying (even when and where he does not see or hear me)....and when I start to think and behave in the only way to make ME and daughters happy-THEN I'll make an opportunity to him see me as a possible oW to OW!<p>As long as he is sure that he can "have" me when/if HE decides I am not interesting like his young and free OW (whose own words are:" I can have any man I decide and for now I want him"-not a word about love, of course he doesn't believe me she said that but is afraid of this possibility)<p>You know, English is not my first language so excuse me if I was not clear.<p>I hope both (everyone of us who need that) will find strength to make ourselves happy, to accept that we CAN and KNOW HOW and WANT to live wothout our spouses.<p>Wish you luck.<p>BTW everyone says that time heals. What time? How long? [img]images/icons/confused.gif" border="0[/img]
Love

<small>[ August 05, 2004, 11:44 PM: Message edited by: laura_lee ]</small>

I think you are right. I have a friend whose parents divorced 15 years ago and her mom is still not over her dad. Mom doesn't date, isn't interested in talking about having her own life and still hangs on every word about news of Dad and OW. It's as if, time stood still for her. She visited him in the hospital when he had surgery and still cries often over him.<p>I think it is sad. This lady is a lovely lady and she loves the Lord, but she has purposely denied herself the chance to find happiness with someone else. I understand that another man may not make her happy and I don't mean she can't be happy without dating or re-marrying. I just think that 15 years later, she is still hanging on to a hopeless situation. The Dad has been remarried 12 years and is happy in his new marriage. There kids were already grown and married when they first divorced. <p>I suppose the moral of the story is that time itself doesn't cure all wounds. Didn't you say that?<p>Your point that what we do with ourselves can make all the difference in the world. We can live in the past and never move on or we can choose to take what life gives us and do the best we can to make it into to something that brings Glory to God.<p>It is our choice. <p>PS. I should note that my grandfather passed away when my mom was preg. with me. My grandmother never re-married or considered it for the 34 years she lives after his death. She was a content and happy person. I don't mean to equate happiness only with marriage but I also don't think we should miss out on a new opportunity God may have planned for us, just because we are stuck in the past, greiving for what we lost.<p>Just my thoughts. I may re-read later and disagree with myself but for now, there it is....<p>God Bless you all! Hi Laura. ( I'm glad you spell your name that way, the OW in my case has the same name but different spelling)<p>I'll catch up later tonight. It's 6 and I'm going home.<p>PP

<small>[ August 05, 2004, 11:45 PM: Message edited by: laura_lee ]</small>

Keep up the good work guys, your prayers are definately working. Much to many people's displeasure, I've decided not to work so hard on physically removing myself from H and just start to detach emotionally. This means I'm not doing a perfect Plan B. I've decided that nothing I can do is going to affect my H because he has what he wants. He was not cooperating with the not coming in orders and I don't want to place a restraining order on him. His physical being has never been and is not now any threat to me.<p>By hiding from him in my own house each morning, I found myself playing a game. From all I've read Plan B is not about playing. It should be about living. <p>Therefore, that is what I've decided to do. Live. Live for Christ, live for my children, and live for myself. The Grace of God will get me through. <p>I don't mean to denouce any MB methods because I truly believe they are sound priciples. Harley's books and this forum are God-sends. I don't doubt that. I've just spent so much time and energy trying to get a reaction from my husband that I'm suffering for it. Nothing I've been doing has been for me. I've tried to be a better housekeeper, not for me but to show him I could. I've tried to make improvements to the house and landscaping, somewhat for me but ultimately to show him I could accomplish something without him. I've tried to ignore him and hide from him but it only proves to him that I still love him so much it hurts to be around him.<p>The last 3 days, he has come in briefly in the mornings. One day was wear your PJ's to school day for my kindergartener. I felt I had to explain that one because son did look a bit funny with his PJ's coat and tennis shoes on.<p>The other days, I've basically been friendly but not hanging on his every word. I don't start any conversations but I'm not rude if he asks a question. I'm sure this fulfills some EN of his and that I didn't give plan B a chance. It just wasn't for me. I could not do it and it was making me look like I had no spine (which I don't by the way).<p>I will not do family things with him. I will not talk to him on the phone or write him letters anymore. He does not have e-mail or pager availability so those aren't a problem. I have reached a point that I can see him on my terms not him. I am still doing my best to have kids dressed, feed and bookbags packed when he arrives therefore limiting his reasons for coming in. BUT I'm not going to change my entire life and schedule to accomdate him. I was doing that. By having to hide in my own house, I felt trapped and emotional. I was only avoiding him to get a reaction, not to prevent any further pain.<p>I've realized the pain came from within me. He did not cause it just by coming in the door. I allowed my feelings to cause this pain. Totally based on expectations. <p>I just want to start living my life and by doing that, I can concentrate on me. I see the merits of a strict plan B and I think if I could have done it properly there would have been merit. I don't think it would work ultimately because my H has made his decision where he wants to be and there is nothing I can do to change it. He can change it and God can change him. I can do nothing about it but pray. <p>I hope this makes some sense and I hope I didn't offend any body. I just want to explain I'm going back to sort of plan A 1/2 . Can't fully plan A because I don't intend to purposefully meet any of husband's needs. BUT can't plan B either because I was doing it for the wrong reasons. I think with time a strick Plan B will be in order for me. Once I've got past doing it expecting it to change him.<p>Thanks for your support. <p>Laura, I'll post directly back to your questions soon, I'm at work and need to get something done to feel good going into the weekend.<p>PP

Just a few thoughts pp, you have had a lot of good advice and discussion allready, won't repeat it.<p>1. Every ending is also a beginning. When you finally look away from this man, you will be able to look to another lifepartner, one that works and fits you. Emotionally we all tend to get hung up in the past, and have trouble reorienting our viewpoints. Everything you have had, the entire 17 years is done, is gone, has absolutely nothing to do with your future. It is gone whether you stay married or not, whether the marriage was disrupted or not, it is gone cause it is the past and has nothing to do with your future (happy or otherwise). In addition, like most of us, any marriage that breaks down as severely as an A was not the "happy" marriage we thought it was either. There is a lot of denial that goes on, we bury our own indecision very deep, and we overlook our the signs our spouse is not really connected as well. I suspect you have known for a long time the marriage was not a deep bond, but were determined to "make it work" IMO you cannot make a marriage work, you can fake it, live a picture, and if folks manipulate themselves and each other hard enough, possibly make it through life (in denial)...but I wonder why? Why do that? Why not face the truth for what it is, and admit to ourselves something is not working the way it should, and challenge that, put it on the line, and if the bond is not going to happen, to let it go...... before this kind of trauma happens. Marriage licenses do not make a marriage, the hearts and souls of two people are where marriage is, and if they are not connected the whole thing is just a picture, no different than hollywood.<p>2. IMO it is not possible to be in-love with someone who is not in-love with you. You can care about someone, and confuse that with in-love, you can also be emotionally/psychologically dependent on them, and confuse that with in-love. Someone mentioned Phil Mcgraws book on life strategies, this is the "work" one can do to free themselves from this kind of self-imposed incarceration to another. PP if your H is not in-love with you (and that appears to be so) you are not in-love with him.....it has to be both, and at the same time, nor do I think it can be chosen, it is part of who 2 people are....it either is, or it is not. You mentioned the one woman who 15 yrs later is still in-love, she isn't of course, she is obsessed and dependent on a fantasy, and it has severely hurt her life not dealing with it. Admitting to oneself they are not really in-love is very hard to do, it means (usually) a fundamental shift in your coping mechanisms, and your worldview, for many it is easier to just shift to sacrificial mode, feel they will carry the torch even if the unworthy spouse will not. Has a certain romantic tragic feel to it, but is very debilitating to the growth and success of those who practive it. Better to look in the mirror, admit you made a major life screwup (chose the wrong spouse, for whatever reason), and refocus on who you are, and the work of unraveling the emotional dependence one has often built up.<p>3. Grief is a well-defined process, there are stages...denial, anger, sadness, desperation etc. so one is well-served reading up on this and applying it to there own circumstances. I have found that grief is involved (in one degree or another) all relationships, even the most toxic physical abuse ones, people experience the grief of an ending, a failure so to speak. I think at this point people often get confused. They mistake the grief for guilt, or love, or other reasons to not let it end, and get stuck back in something they would never choose if not allready emotionally involved. This is where our analytical sides need to kick in, and carry us through with a plan, so we don't bog down, or become manipulated back into a relationship.<p>anyways pp, my thoughts, and discoveries for what they are worth, you know I am the ws, so take this as you will. But I do think there is a lot more to in-love, and the nurturing reality, than just the fact you are married to someone..... and these truths are all important, and should be faced. Good luck.....<p>I have observed something else here, quite often folks in your emotional place, as long as they do the personal work, do recover their balance, and if are open (vulnerable) to love....learn from their failed effort and find someone they do fit and are quite happy, and express how they never realized how good it can be......when you fit someone. And really have no desire for the former spouse. They may care for them, especially if they are the parent of your children, and are not a total sociopath, but the really have no feeling of loss they are not married to them.

PP
Just one thing here. What's all this stuff about "I don't want to play the GAME". Life IS a game. As we maneuver our way through life, we learn what works for us and what does not. This is called "stradgy", or give it another name if you like. Don't dismiss this "growth", behavior that we try out and OWN what works, as a mir game.<p>MB principals are designed to help us work our way through changing unproductive behavior. We are more effective if we: use a conversational voice, through out disrespectful judgements, sarcastic remarks, efforts at "educating", constant needy suficating behavior. This can be called a game if you like however it might mean more to you if you think of this as "life skills".<p>If your husband does not "get with the program" then at least you will be better equpited to enter a new relationship.<p>Many here have told you that you have a shot at getting your husband back. His coming into the house, when repettedly asked not to, is his way of keeping you hanging on and testing wheather you have truly changed showing you he is still in control. We don't respect thoes who we can control and walk all over. When he has respect for is when you have respect for yourself.<p>Maybe this drama is doing something for YOU. I believe that we do what we want to get what we want. Atleast I've seen this in myself and I do admitt that it has taken years for me to come to this realization. Just think about this. Think about why it is that you do not want to have a spine. When you are sick and tired of being sick and tired, your spine will grow.<p>PP, my hear aches for you.

Yes I suppose it will grow... But until then I have to live life and learn "life's lessons" as best I can. I was not being true to myself and the principles of MB. <p>The "Playing the Game" concept probably subconsiously derived itself from watching too much survivor. However, my life is real. It is not a game. Yes decisions we make mold us and we change as we grow throughout our lives. BUT God has a purpose for each of us and it is to be taken seriously. Enough preaching. Sorry.<p>All I have read and most of what I've learned here on this forum says you have to do things for the right reason. You can't Plan A just to avoid conflict. It must be done to make your self stronger. If the results of becoming a stronger better person cause a good outcome on your spouse too, all the better, but the goal is to become someone who your spouse will love and want to meet the needs of. The goal is not to be a doormat or to do it out of religious or legal obligations.<p>Plan B also, in my opinion, is very clear that it is about the BS. It definately has an effect on the WS but Plan B is designed to protect the BS from losing love for WS and to prepare themselves for the possible outcome of divorce. It was clear to me that Plan B should never be used to punish a WS or to get a reaction. It should be the decision of the BS to do what they need to do to protect themselves. As WS has our kids this weekend, I'll go back and re-read SAA just to make sure I'm not confused. At any rate, I know I clearly read that the BS must accept divorce is a possible outcome of Plan B. <p>I don't want my H to use me or walk all over me. I was allowing him to use me to meet his need for conversation and allowing him to hold on to me emotionally. I saw that too. I saw what pain it caused. BUT I'm looking at what causes me the pain. Is it him or the way I react to him? <p>It has taken me 6 months here on this forum to finally decide to move on and get a life. Do something for myself. Become a better stronger person. I am no longer going to allow him to control me because am in control of how he makes me feel. Hopefully, he will notice the change in me and understand that I've decided to move on and not depend on him. I have been praying for my heart to be in the right place to do just that. <p>I still hope that God has a plan to restore my marriage and I will not do anything that I know of to interfere. I just think God expects me to take care of myself and my children and learn how to but my faith in Him fully and without question.<p>PP

<small>[ August 05, 2004, 11:46 PM: Message edited by: laura_lee ]</small>