Hi TR,<p>Your post regarding your daughter and school, left a big enough impact on me that I am following in your footsteps. I just hope I am doing the right thing, but I know nothing else I've done has worked.<p>Like you, I've gone year after year with giving privledges, taking away privledges(sp?). Nothing is working. This is my last hope.<p>So I am now out of my son's homework, schoolwork business. He gets no grounding, no schedule as to when to do his work, no grounding if he gets bad grades, etc.<p>If he fails 7th grade, this will be his failure and hopefully he will learn something from this.<p>I printed your post and gave it to him to read. He is very happy I am out of his homework life and ungrounded this week. He tells me he doesn't care if he fails.<p>Today was a tough one. He told me yesterday he get's his homework on Sunday and yesterday was Saturday. I didn't say a word to him about getting homework today. Although I did hint (which hey I am new at this and it is soooo hard.) I said, "Boy is it late today, it's already 5:00, 7:00, almost time for bed...where did the day go. Tomorrow is already a school day." I am so bad. [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Well, of course he is in bed now. No homework done. He didn't even remember but tomorrow at school he will. I have a feeling the next few weeks will be withdrawal for me.<p>I am going to be leaning on you heavily. I also have another friend that is so encouraging. She has her teaching degree and I respect her very much. She is supporting me and agrees that I need to let go of this and let him fail.<p>My biggest problem, is seeing him play outside and play inside. Seeing him have fun when he hasn't completed any assingment. My parents never set any boundaries for me and I so hated this. I always feel children need guidance and boundaries. Now I am giving absolutely free reign. <p>I also wonder how I deal with my younger child when he ask why he has boundaries in school work and his brother doesn't.<p>Last night a girl his age asked him what grade he is in. He told her and of course I thought about next year if he fails. How is he going to feel when he tells a child over and over. I failed a year?<p>Also, I need to get with the school. I am concerned they may do the same thing your school did and pass him on state test scores. I want their support on this one. I will also refuse summer school.<p>I do have a feeling (maybe it's just wishful thinking) in a few weeks my son will be back, asking me for help. We shall see though, it may take failing to wake him up.<p>Take care and thanks for your help TR,<p>[ December 03, 2001: Message edited by: Anna2000 ]</p>

TR,<p>Here's another concern.<p>I have a feeling STBX will never agree to this approach. Also, I know he'll insist on summer school if he fails.<p>We are not yet divorced, custody is not yet settled. What if the courts treat this in a negative way? Could I lose custody over not setting schedules for him to get his homework?<p>Just some thoughts.<p>ANNA

Anna <p>To let you know...It was hard for me too..
and I occassionally slipped and said things..to remind her..but, not so much this year...<p>And my lawyer said something to me about it..that it looks bad on me..I said..No, it doesn't..she had to learn..it looks bad on her..and I will not take the blame for her refusing to do her work..
He asked me how she's doing this year..and I told him..she's making A's and B's this year..because she learned..it's her responsibility to do her work..not mine..he was like..Oh okay...and really didn't say anything ast that..<p>If your stbx says anything..ask him why he doesn't help him then?? He has no room to talk if he's asked the teachers if they can get away w/ NOT doing their assignments when they are w/ him...

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by ThornedRose:
<strong>Anna <p>To let you know...It was hard for me too..
and I occassionally slipped and said things..to remind her..but, not so much this year...<p>And my lawyer said something to me about it..that it looks bad on me..I said..No, it doesn't..she had to learn..it looks bad on her..and I will not take the blame for her refusing to do her work..
He asked me how she's doing this year..and I told him..she's making A's and B's this year..because she learned..it's her responsibility to do her work..not mine..he was like..Oh okay...and really didn't say anything ast that..<p>If your stbx says anything..ask him why he doesn't help him then?? He has no room to talk if he's asked the teachers if they can get away w/ NOT doing their assignments when they are w/ him...</strong><hr></blockquote><p>TR,<p>I hear ya!<p>Hey, got that rescheduled job interview today. Wish me luck!<p>ANNA

I must of missed the original post that started this whole discussion but I'm very interested in seeing it could someone tell me where it is?<p>We had some serious problems with our 6th grade girls first nine weeks this year (the first year since the divorce) and took a little different approach to it.

Anna,<p>i have taken a similar approach, and it works, however, you have to give it time to work, and you have to let the teachers in on it so that they can be the heavies. I would suggest that a meeting with them and asking them to be consistent on the punishments would be appropriate. You want to be the loving supportive parent to help him, and reward him, and let the teachers be the judgers of his progress. <p>Also, i was thinking about your rewards, which is monetary, and money does not mean much for kids until they get to be teenagers, and they need it and can begin to use it. That is why i went with the party aspect for the 9 yo, and the money OPTION with the 12 1/2 yo. I gave the 12 1/2 yo the choice, and since he is starting to make money at odd jobs, he took the money, but 9 you d wouldn't know what to do with it.<p>I would agree, hands off, but still keep the rewards posted and still reward the good behavior, and still be enthusiastic about his successes, just as TR has done. What your son appears to be doing is building a wall around his feelings and the only control he has to reject back, to act up against his hurt, is to reject or stonewall against his parent's pushing education on him.<p>I have started to use this approach a little when 12 yo son asks for help, and then starts arguing with me. I walk away, and ask him what his goal is: to learn or to argue and fight. . . . once he states to learn, you can return, until he changes his goal to argue. . . .<p>I told 12 yo son this weekend, i have been to a #1 ranked high school, #1 ranked college, and #1 ranked graduate school, I can help him to learn to learn and to learn the material, two different concepts. . . . but i don't need him to do it,
he can stay where he is and still get into college, BUT he forfeits alot of choices <p>The education is all about choices, choices for how to live in the future, what he can do in the future, and that you want him to have as many choices as possible. I have two beliefs: 1)Life is also about doing the best one can, each and every day. Everyone fails once in a while, i failed courses in high school and college, but i still mastered the material, albeit after the final exam when i figured out my mistakes. 2) Life is about figuring out how to do a little better the next time. This step needs to look at the grade/outcome, and ask the simple question: how can i improve? if one can use these two rules, they will get as far as they apply themselves, and as far as they can go with their abilities, which is all one can ask for. I read a success book about people, and most very successful people had parents that continually asked: "how can you improve or do better?" that's all, no absolute goals, just the constant search for improvement.<p>I also talked with my son about effort, and related school work, the repetition of it to his mastering his soccer skills through constant practice to his mastering school work through constant practice. But the decision is up to him.<p>He understands and agrees, but does not like the pushing, he needs to be pulled, and that is the socratic approach, to pull someone through discussion and understanding, and rewards.<p>anyway, keep trying, it will gel. During the two counseling sessions with kid I had, I told the counselor of the changes i made last summer, and he agreed I was on the right path.<p>However, you tell your lawyer and everyone else who disagrees, you can't force a kid to learn, but when he wants to, a teacher will appear. . . .<p>my probelm is with the mom, who is completely hands off, does not offer rewards for success, and has difficulty teaching life strategies (she has none) but can teach math. A life strategy is much more important than just memorizing the material.
good luck<p>tom<p>oh, and I have asked about life strategies more than once, just simple questions, and never once have i gotten an answer back from X.

LostHusband,<p>Here's the post from TR regarding my son. This is what led me to my decision.<p>Also, my son has had this problem for years. As he becomes a teenager it is becoming worse. I have tried giving him treats and special privledges like allowing friends to spend the night, going to special places. Nothing has work. Ever year his teachers say they can't seem to modivate him whatsoever.<p>I am going to try this as a last resort. I have to say so far I think it will be my biggest challenge in being a mother.<p>Originally posted by Thorned Rose to ANNA<p>Now..for older son..how old is he? He sounds like my OD..same thing..it's gone on for years..not
turning in assignments..even if she did them..I struggled just to get her to do them, did the write them down, have teachers and I both sign a form, she's lose the form...so last year..I quit..I told her she knows what her assignments are..she knows when they are due, if she does them fine if she doesn't she'll get zeros and she'll fail the choice is hers..she didn't believe me..
she'd failed 4th grade and they administratively passed her to 5th based on test scores..even though I went to the principle and asked her NOT to pass her, but they ignored my wishes so she learned they will pass her anyway because she does well on tests..so like I said..I QUIT..I quit saying anything to her about her assignments unless she asked for help..other than that I didn't say anything..didn't harp about her grades..asked her if she thinks she applied herself and did the best she can? she well, not
really, I said, well,I am disappointed because I know how smart that you..and it hurts me to see you not even trying..she failed two classes last year..the teachers said send her to summer school, and she can do the work then and pass, OD was like yeah I'll go to summer school. I asked her how she
planned on getting there because I work and can't leave work to take her and pick her up, so she'd
have to walk or ride her bike..she looked at me like "I" was Nuts..LOL..I said well then I guess you just go back through it again next year huh?
she was like..well yeah I guess if you can't take me I'll have to..I said I'm sorry kiddo, but you knew what your assignments were, and you didn't do them..I can force you to do them like I have in the past but you didn't learn anything..so what did you learn about this? she said..that I can't just not do the work and expect to pass..I said..as long as you've learned something from it your growing and I'm proud of you..well..she's repeating the grade this year..making A's and B's..she's turning in ALL of her assignments plus extra credit work..the classes she's making B's in this year aren't the ones she failed last year..but one's she struggled in and made C's in last year..the one's she failed she's making A's
in..and she's excited about learning..she's grasping things this year that she didn't before
because she learned something..that she can't just not do her work and expect to pass..she has to
apply herself..
I told her I'm not mad at her for failing, disappointed yes, but mad no, she didn't fail me, she failed herself. I asked her how she feels about it..she said "I hate it, but you were right, I didn't apply myself, and I failed and it's not your fault I didn't do the work it's mine" I said,
"you know, I love you very much, and I know how smart you are, and I hurt to see you not even
trying to do your best" just like now..I tell her how proud I am of her that she's doing so well, it shows me and everyone else that she's learning what we already knew..just how smart she really is..<p>You can continue punishing him for not doing his work..or you can allow him to face the consequences of his not doing his work..it doesn't make you as a parent look bad-even though everyone told me how wrong I was, that I'd destroy her self-esteem, and that it would just devastate her emotionally- I didn't agree with them..because I knew for her the immediate consequences weren't working, and that this would teach her something that she will ALWAYS remember..so even though everyone thought I was wrong, I knew what was best for my daughter.. She's even got one of the same teachers this year that she failed last year..he's one that couldn't believe I wouldn't send her to summer school and said that it would destroy her emotionally..he told me recently..WOW, You really know your daughter - she's doing remarkable this year, she's came out of her shell is more outgoing, said by the way she acts you'd never know she failed.. I told him, "I'm very proud of her and she knows it, and she knows that I love her no matter if she makes straight A's or F's, she's learned that yes, mom will be disappointed if she fails..but as long as she does her best I'm proud of her..but I love her just the same..<p>the point being here is maybe the immediate consequences for your son won't work..but if you allow him to be responsible for his own work, his own grades..and let him suffer his own consequences for doing the work or not..and gain a greater respect for himself, by knowing that just because he doesn't make straight A's I am still loveable..and it's not that mom doesn't care, it's just that she's allowing him to learn his own lesson about responsibility..something he can take with him the rest of his life.. <p><p>c'ya,<p>ANNA

Thank you for posting that Anna. Geez, I bet in the beginning that was pretty tough on you as well.<p>Well fortunately with my oldest things turned around after we met with the teachers/principle. We came up with the following plan: Jessica was to stay after school everyday to do homework for 1 hour. The teacher would initial in her assignment book all the work she completed and we were to initial all work she completed at home. If we did not sign off on it then it didn't count. Further we cut off all her communications with friends for a month, until her new report card came out and we could see improvement. Thankfully, her grade are up from C-D's to all A-B's.<p>But if we have a couple repeat performances I like your idea.

Tom,<p>Thanks for the advice. Were on the same page regarding awards. When they were younger I did rewards differently. One is almost 10 and one is almost 13, they both say, "Show me the money!"<p>Anyway, I will continue to pay them both money when the report card comes in. However, I won't comment if my older son makes all F's. This is good for me I think. I think letting go totally and then if son ever ask starting totally fresh is good. It may be something I will get benefit from as much as him.<p>Also, thanks for the advice on the lawyer too. You know what else. If I need to let go. If I lose my the primary custody, then STBX can get his chance to handle it. Perhaps that too is what STBX needs to take responsibility, to actually hand him over the full responsibility.<p>Although, I have a concern there too. Sometimes I worry about STBX's anger. He's never really abused the children, accept once he hit OS with the back of his hand in the face, when he was around 5, because OS accidentally hurt him. I told him this was child abuse and would call the police if it ever happened again. It never did.<p>Well, I am concerened with something that right now is not even a consideration so I need to stop.<p>Thanks Tom.<p>[/b]LH,[/b]<p>If you want to look at the thread it is "So angry at stbx." It starts out as something totally different than son's homework though.<p>Also, I'm glad you solved your problem so easily. We did something similar too. Most years meeting with the teachers, coming up with a plan, both the teacher and I signing the daily homework log. When he was younger this was fine. I saw some results and probably would get a little result from doing that now. However, he's almost 13 years old now and it would probably only let him squeek by enough to once again barely pass. <p>I have a friend who's child is gifted. Her child has similar traits as mine. He's now in 11th grade and they are still pulling their hair out and trying hard to come up with ways for him to pass his classes. I don't want to be in this same boat in 11th grade as now. I sure wish I would have met TR when my son was in 4th grade. Oh well, I probably wouldn't have listened then anyway. [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] <p>I'll keep you guys posted on the progress or lack of! I'm excited to see where this takes us.<p>c'ya'll,<p>ANNA<p>[ December 03, 2001: Message edited by: Anna2000 ]</p>

I firmly believe that many 7th graders, especially learning disabled ones, are not capable of the organizational skills and long-term planning necessary to cope with homework by themselves, especially when schools pile it on. I know two of my first four were not at that age - they do (usually) mature out of it - my oldest is going to graduate soon from a prestigious college, and is doing very well. As a matter of fact, her professor recently praised her organizational skills - and this is someone who had trouble remembering to even bring her homework home 8 years ago. <p>I personally think 12 year olds SHOULD be outside playing after school. I think struggling children should receive as much help as they need - no one should repeat a grade when they are intellectually capable of handling the work just because they lack organizational skills. Twelve year olds are still children. Many twelve year olds can not really make the connection between not doing homework now and flunking later - delayed gratification or delayed punishment is not effective until a certain degree of maturity is reached, and nothing anyone can do can hurry that process.<p>I would strongly recommend the book <p>"The End of Homework : How Homework Disrupts Families, Overburdens Children, and Limits Learning."<p>I thought the second reader review on Amazon, written by a teacher, was fantastic.<p>[ December 03, 2001: Message edited by: Nellie1 ]</p>

TR AND ALL,
It's a MIRACLE!!!<p>HOLY COWWWWWWWWWWWWWW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!<p>HOLY COWWWWWWWWWWWWWW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!<p>Incredible!<p>Ok, tonight I watched my son play basketball, I watched him play with his brother, watched him do everything but get his homework. I never said a word.<p>I told older son to go to bed. He did. Younger son was not totally finished with homework but almost, finished. So I let him stay up to finish. <p>After about 15 minutes OS calls me into his room and says, "How come brother gets to stay up to finish homework, but I don't?" I had to refrain from looking totally shocked, as I said, "You were playing, it was bedtime, I assumed your homework was done or you didn't have any. He said "Yes I have some just forgot until now." I said, "Well, if you want to get homework this one time, you can get it. However, in the future it's up to you to set your own schedule of when or if you'll get homework, but if it's not done or close to being done by 9:00 you go to bed without doing it. He said, "Okay, I want to get it tonight."<p>I left the room, he just came in and handed me a schedule he worked on. He was so proud.<p>Here it is,<p>5:50 a.m. Shower
6:15 a.m. Dressed
6:25 a.m Eat breakfast
6:40 a.m. Bus Stop
3:00 p.m. Math, Science, & SS homework
4:00-7:00 Freetime and dinner
7:00 p.m. Reading, Writing and elective homework.
8:00 p.m. Freetime
9:00 p.m. Get Ready for bed<p>Sheesh! I'm amazed. [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img] <p>I know it's not over yet, he could still fail, but there is progress! His own progress. His own solution. WOOHOOO!!!<p>TR, if this works, I want an address, you're getting flowers!<p>Take care,<p>ANNA

nellie,<p>Thanks for the advice. One thing I need to clear up is OS is not the one with a disability. He has taken a couple IQ test that puts him 5 points away from being what the school considers gifted. It's strange but if I were in Houston ISD, I was told he would be considered gifted. Makes no sense to me. [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img] There should be no problem there.<p>Also, I do see your point. I have thought alot about homework and how the school systems today are overloading our children.<p>Unless I want to homeschool, which I can't, I believe we must abide by rules. Whether we like these rules, agree with them or not. (I do tend to bend if I can sometimes though [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] ) Anyway, I do appreciate all the comments.<p>Take care,<p>ANNA

Anna, <p>My D has a very high IQ also..but they won't put her in gifted classes because of the homework issues..because it brings down the gpa. <p>I'm so glad he made up his own schedule..this is good for him..because it helps he feel like he has some say so in his responsibilities..and shows him that YOU trust him..and builds his self-confidence..don't push his schedule on him..let him get used to it..he made it up..let him learn that self-discipline to stick to it..<p>I personally don't give money for grades..I think their grades are their payment for the work they have done..just like work you don't get a bonus every week just because you showed up on time and did your work..you may get a Christmas bonus or something at the end of the year..but..it's not something you get every six to nine weeks..the school has a cook-out at the end of they year for everyone who makes Honor Roll all year..the skating rink has free skating for every A & B..the bowling alley has free bowling and the school gives out trophy's at an awards cermony at the end of the year..<p>But, I never wanted to get into the habit of paying for grades in case something happened financially that I couldn't afford it..and that be their only incentive to make good grades..and then something happen and they don't get it..and then they give up..because that incentive is no longer there..<p>As far as homework being overloaded on our kids..I don't agree, mine have as much as I did when I was growing up..it takes about 10-20 minutes per subject..if they sit down and do it..without distractions..if they are having troubles w/ a subject it takes longer. if it's a subject they struggle w/ the teachers usually know..so the school started offering tutoring in the mornings before school for an hour..as opposed to summer school..they are trying to catch it earlier in the year and get them the extra help then so they don't fall behind..

Just an update.<p>I sent out emails to teachers and counselors asking for support in my decision, as well as explaining how I came up with this decision, regarding older son. As well as STBX.<p>So far the support is overwhelminly in favor of this. Not all emails are in but this is a good thing! Also STBX has not responded. <p>Here's an excerpt from one teachers email. "I just wanted to let you know that I support your decision 100%. Too often I deal with parents
who want to make excuses for their child's lack of effort. I believe in what you are doing
because I think that failing is a choice that some very capable students make."<p>Most emails are similar.<p>The teacher's support was important to me, as I was concerned they would think I am this "bad" parent. There emails are giving me so much confidence in my decision.<p>I'll keep ya posted.<p>ANNA

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Anna2000:
<strong>We are not yet divorced, custody is not yet settled. What if the courts treat this in a negative way? Could I lose custody over not setting schedules for him to get his homework?
</strong><hr></blockquote><p>Keep those supportive emails, my friend. You never know.<p>My divorce is final but I'm keeping EVERYTHING on file because I have no doubts that as long as my XMIL is manipulating him, my X could take me back to court to contest my custody at any time. They were both devastated and furious when I got physical custody.<p>)^(

Anna,<p>That is wonderful news [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] <p>I had similar responses from some of my OD's teachers..One of which not only effected my OD
but some of her classmates..LOL..<p>they had a report they all had to do..The teacher called me to inform me she hadn't turned said report in (and she lied to him) saying she didn't have the 3x5 cards to do the assignment..I asked him to put her on the phone (since he called during school hours) I asked her if this was the same report that she insisted we go to the store immediately to get said 3x5 cards for?? she admitted it was..I said..put teacher back on the phone..and I asked him "how many students are in your class? he said X, I said out of X # of students how many did not turn in said report on time? he said Y, I asked how many were out sick during this time? he said Z, I said okay..what does giving these Y # of students more time to do said report teach the rest of X # of students?
He said they can put off doing assignments and still pass..(even if they just get a lower grade because it's late) i said Exactly..now..is that what you expect from your students?? or do you as the teacher expect all assignments to be turned in on time? and told him..personally I think all of
Y students will learn a more valuable lesson if they are not given an extended time to do the assignment as opposed to teaching X that it's okay not to turn them in on time..<p>He said..WOW..you are the first parent to say that..all the rest said okay give them more time,
but you know..I think I like your idea better..and I will contact the other parents and let them know that I have thought about this..and decided that they all had sufficient time to do said report and I am giving them all a zero..said report was 60% of their grade..he said your absolutely right they will never learn consequences if they don't face them..he started doing that with ALL of his classes..and from what I gather..shared this w/ the other teachers..to where they ALL started doing this..and continue to do so two years later..unfortunately or fortunately it was at the end of the school year and didn't effect all their passing grades throughout the rest of the year..so it didn't cause any of them to fail that grade..<p>So Yes, You will find that teachers often support you because it's showing them that YOU support them in teaching your child to be responsible..

TR,<p>Here's the other side to zero tollerence on late homework.<p>I am one of those parents that have a problem with zero tollerance. Only for one reason. If the child is not habitually late, they should be allowed to make mistakes without their grades being impacted by a zero. Often one major report with a zero can knock their grades down enough to lose their standing in honor roll or the no pass no play rule become implemented. Children could give up to easily with adults expecting them to be perfect when we as adults aren't perfect. I have heard the zero tollerence is due to getting the children ready for going out in the workforce. This is not true. Most bosses know we are not perfect and allow for some mistakes. However, I do think there should be passes the children must keep up with on their own, for every 6 weeks allowing for them to be late one time with only points being taken away. Then after that they can give a 0 for other homework.<p>Also, as my child gets older, I see more and more homework. Other parents too talk about the number of hours spent on assignments. This year almost every weekend he's had homework on the weekend too. I have been told once he entered 8th grade he will have summer homework projects. Where's the summer breaks? Where's the weekend breaks? Even as parents we get breaks from our work. Also as parents we come home and leave our work behind us, they come home yet to more work. I do think we have to follow their rules if we are going to be there, but I also have great concern as to where our school system is going.<p>Well, c'ya, and thanks again for all the great help.<p>ANNA

Hi:<p>I keep peeking in here to see how this thread is going. It sounds like you are all coming up with some great ideas to put the homework into the hands where it belongs... our kids !<p>I would like to share my two cents on this subject, as well. I was public schooled trained, and was a teacher during my years in Grad school. I also came from a long line of Educators, Psych.. so it was my legacy. <p>Alot of the thinking has changed over the years about this topic, inlcuding my own.....despite my training. Even as i say this,. I realize I may step on toes.. this is not my intention.. it is more to bring up other sides of the issue.<p>I am strong agreement about the advice given to give children the choices on how / or, If, /when, to do their homework-- and let them experience the consequences of such choices. <p>Now we know that certain kids--- need that extra push.. kids that hve disabilities, or ADD-- ( i have one child, husband who I had to kick through college with this disorder), and they need to have assistance in time managment, and organizational skills, as well as parental help with concepts, skills. <p>But, these types of kids too, can be given much control over how to get homework done, when/ if and are usually ready to experience the outcome of those choices, if given the opportunity. Sometimes there is a tendency to "coddle" these kids.. when what they really need, is adult who believes in their ability to do wht they need to do. <p>In my work as a Ed Psych-- I have seen plenty of families.. who have put themselves into a never ending battle with schedules for homework/projects, & whether homework is even done. <p>It is important that we seperate the child's responsibility from our own. <p>We have a tendency as parents, to feel that unless we do the monitoring.. that our kids can't cope/ or won't do it without us.. For some kds.. it appears to be true.. But the problem is in most cases.. is that kids are protected from the consequences.. Parents, might finish the work for them.. or give them a note.. asking for special concessions.. or give various excuses.. etc.. <p>Over the years, I have done numerous workshops using a great program / book called "Parenting with Love & Logic"..They have one for Teens too.<p>It has 4 rules.. and the big one is to allow your child to make the choices.. ( ie, make a schedule, decide on play time, hw time, chores, etc.. ( this is akin to making deposits in the love tank), and then allow the consequences to do the teaching..It takes the heat off of you !!!! ) It takes you out of the bad /naggy parent role.. and is unbelievably liberating.. to both the parent and child.<p>Re the Homework issue.. much of what is done in "institutionalized schools"
( public education) now.. that is called "homework".. is Imho is nothing but BUSY work.. <p>I realize that there is much need of repetition in the primary/middle elementary grades.. but much of what I have seen sent home.. is just time consuming exercises-- that have little value-<p>I am totally in agreement with the member that said.. she believed children need time to be kids, to play outside.. explore their world, read different books, learn how to be independent learners.. etc... and in all things--- there needs to be balance.<p>Now remember I am saying this both as a mother, former teacher (at most grade levels,) ED Psych, and MFT Therapist. <p>Here's a tidbit from our experience:<p>We moved into a top school district specifically, for the kid's...academic growth. Within 3 years, we made the decision to pull them.. and HOMESCHOOL....something I felt I would never do..for a number of factors.<p>This was a hard decision.. based upon my training. This was not b/c of the HW issue so much, although I found much of it without meaning, purpose,-- <p>Including, some of it.. that I had no idea what they wanted.. even though I have advanced degrees.... INstead, the decision was made b/c of the quality of education they were receiving, and the environment they were having to contend with day in/ out. <p>When your kids need to be concerned about "watching their back side", and your son's 5th grade teacher publically uses his disability to humilate him--as an example of what a "non passing 5th grader is"-and does nothing about the harassment in / out of the classroom..you have to ask what you can do differently ?<p>When, our bright, beautiful, blonde, blue eye, outgoing daughter came home one day sporting a bandana, and talking "gang talk" and sounded like black GHETTO GIRL, ...... I knew something had to change. <p>I discovered that in our "GREAT" school district- there were two groups.. the rich kids, and the fringe kids.. If you were rich, your daddy bought you a Lexus, and then you were accepted-- if you weren't, your only choice was to be alone, or have someone watch your back.. from the fringe kids.<p>For us, that was the decision to explore HOMESCHOOLING. <p>Our son was totally for it.. our daughter was reluctant.. but since beginning it.. it has made a world of difference in their lives.. and I am sorry I didn't consider it sooner. <p>Some of the residual payoff we have experienced is that they are more obediant, closer to each other, and us.. and we don't contend with undoing the contamination that we used to,---- after spending day/ in / out with other "socialized" children. (They spent all their prior years in public education.) <p>Every year we give them the choice to go back.. their answer is always NO WAY !<p>In fact, one year.. I was so tired of being here to homeschool.. and really wanted my "other" life back.. I threaten the kids with going back.. -- They cried.. and said.. "mom, if you do.. we will be out of here-- so fast !!!" My own mother who is a dyed in wool public educator for 40 years... had her reservation about HS, and has seen the incredible progress they have made-- and has threaten me that she will take over, if I am tempted to dump them back into school. ( SHOCK ) <p>I realized then, that HS had given them so much more than I had ever hoped.. Their self confidence was back, to reestablish their values, goals, and ideas about life- without being pressured by unnecessary peer pressure, and they were given the opportunities to be
"independent learners & thinkers".. a skill that is needed for life !<p>Before we decided to homeschool... I had met so many HS that were incredible kids.. also, met the ones that were the "sheltered" children.. I had vowed that my kids.. wouldn't be like that..<p>My daughter who is 16 is planning to graduate from High School-- this Jan.. She has already completed a year of college, at 15.. and these courses she completed in college,gets to counted for double dip credit. <p>My son-- who is in 7th grade.. also works on 8th grade work.. and his goal is to be done with his 7th grade work.. so he can be in 8th grade.. by Feb. They are motivated in a ways.. that public school.. didn't do..and allowed opportunties.. they wouldn't have had otherwise. <p>They have opportunities to do numerous things as the funds permit---
(21 state trip/ 1 country exploring the states, doing hands on activities in those states, shark cage.. learning marine biology, working/shadowing a cardiologist, dissecting/ testing / and learning how a pig's heart is so much like a human's, fossil digs, etc)-- that their friends haven't been able to do.. in their learning.<p>Currently, my son's goal is to save enough money to begin Pilot lessons-- when he is 13. He has a Rent a Boy service during the year, where he is hired to weed, wlk dogs, vacation/ pet sitting etc.<p>Many of the kids friends/ parents were suspicious.. but have since come /called and asked to see what they are doing.. how it is they can do so many things.. <p>I gladly show thm the kids work.. alot of our work is done on the computer. I can't count the number of times some of these kids have said.. will u homeschool me? or Gosh, you guys don't know how lucky you are to be able to homeschool.

One kid teased my son, and said.. " Yeah, if you Homeschool--- you will be flipping burgers the rest of your life".. My son's answer.. "I don't think so.. I will probably own a chain of burger stands-- and you will be working for me ! [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>I have even had parents call and ask if we will teach their kidlets..-- All this to say.. that the Hw issue.. is mute in our home.. The kids don't have HW, unless they don't get their daily work done-- they get to plan their schedule--so Homework is totally based on their output for the day. <p>I do monitor.. and check their work.. but the program we use.. does the grading, testing etc.
I also give them standardized achievement tests every year to measure progress. My litmus test was when my daughter got into College-- as a reg student at 15 ! <p>A neat bonus for them.. is that they get to finish their school work earlier than peers.. b/c they don't have the distractions that other kids have in public... much of what is done in public.. is spent with classroom behavior managment.<p>I realize that many parents cannot make this choice.. and frankly, this CHOICE may not be right for everyone. Single parents would have a particular hard time with this.. although I know several singles who do this.. and have the ability to arrange their schedules accordingly. <p>I also know many highly educated people who have either begun to make this choice for their kids.. or who have done this much longer than I have.. after seeing the public setting with different eyes.<p>A real good book on this subject is "Dumbing down of Public Education".

I always get asked about the big S questions.. re socialization.. My standard answer is that if exposing your children to 6-7 hours of school work, that is designed to be a "one size fits all" approach, and giving them opportunities to be exposed to drugs, gangs, sexual acting out, values that go against what you teach them, rebellious, sometimes hateful kids, & being forced to participate in a setting where "watching their back" is mandatory, etc..is called "SOCIALIZATION".. then we will pass ! <p>Our kids do participate in different activites, (youth group, scouts, dance, piano, guitar, theater, bowling, work, etc.. plus, get to hang w/ their other friends) so the "socialization" issue is NOT an issue.<p>All of this to say.. we all have to make choices about what is best for our kids.. Keep up the great strides in allowing your children to be responsible for their school work.. it is their "job"-- and with that job comes pay offs.. in grades.. and promotions. <p>When we take that job out of their hands-- we have "disabled" their ability----- to make choices/ learn from those choices.<p>Keep up the great work and encouragement here.
D

Hey there IT,<p>
I keep peeking in here to see how this thread is going. It sounds like you are all coming up with some great ideas to put the homework into the hands where it belongs... our kids !

Glad you peeked!

I would like to share my two cents on this subject, as well. I was public schooled trained, and was a teacher during my years in Grad school. I also came from a long line of Educators, Psych.. so it was my legacy.

hmmmm Know who to make friends with on MB now! [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img]
You could come in handy. hehe

Alot of the thinking has changed over the years about this topic, inlcuding my own.....despite my training. Even as i say this,. I realize I may step on toes.. this is not my intention.. it is more to bring up other sides of the issue.

Good, I hate a regimented, closed minded person who can't change their minds.<p>Oh, my toes gets bruised often but somehow I usually learn something from those bruises. I'm sure most here feel the same.

I am strong agreement about the advice given to give children the choices on how / or, If, /when, to do their homework-- and let them experience the consequences of such choices.

I wish I would have learned this lesson years ago but am happy I at least learned it before they graduated.

Now we know that certain kids--- need that extra push.. kids that hve disabilities, or ADD-- ( i have one child, husband who I had to kick through college with this disorder), and they need to have assistance in time managment, and organizational skills, as well as parental help with concepts, skills. <p>But, these types of kids too, can be given much control over how to get homework done, when/ if and are usually ready to experience the outcome of those choices, if given the opportunity. Sometimes there is a tendency to "coddle" these kids.. when what they really need, is adult who believes in their ability to do wht they need to do.

True, and my OS with his learning disability is such a logical thinker he knows how to use the disability to often to his advantage, by munipulation of course. Just last night he told me to skip certain spelling words because they are just too hard for him. He'll make an 80% instead of 100%. He often doesn't challenge himself and I do have to watch this.

In my work as a Ed Psych-- I have seen plenty of families.. who have put themselves into a never ending battle with schedules for homework/projects, & whether homework is even done. <p>It is important that we seperate the child's responsibility from our own.

So very true.

We have a tendency as parents, to feel that unless we do the monitoring.. that our kids can't cope/ or won't do it without us.. For some kds.. it appears to be true.. But the problem is in most cases.. is that kids are protected from the consequences.. Parents, might finish the work for them.. or give them a note.. asking for special concessions.. or give various excuses.. etc..

Again, true. I'm very guilty of this.

Over the years, I have done numerous workshops using a great program / book called "Parenting with Love & Logic"..They have one for Teens too.<p>It has 4 rules.. and the big one is to allow your child to make the choices.. ( ie, make a schedule, decide on play time, hw time, chores, etc.. ( this is akin to making deposits in the love tank), and then allow the consequences to do the teaching..It takes the heat off of you !!!! ) It takes you out of the bad /naggy parent role.. and is unbelievably liberating.. to both the parent and child.

Sure wish I would have taken one of your workshops. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]

Re the Homework issue.. much of what is done in "institutionalized schools"
( public education) now.. that is called "homework".. is Imho is nothing but BUSY work..

Yep, again true. I couldn't believe they were still having my child color homework, even in 6th grade. Sheesh!

I realize that there is much need of repetition in the primary/middle elementary grades.. but much of what I have seen sent home.. is just time consuming exercises-- that have little value-

True again, I see this also.

I am totally in agreement with the member that said.. she believed children need time to be kids, to play outside.. explore their world, read different books, learn how to be independent learners.. etc... and in all things--- there needs to be balance.

Yes, there does. I would like to have my child do more chores at home after school also. I think 30 minutes of chores is good for them. However, I find it very difficult to do this when as it is now, my OS's free time is becoming almost nil on school nights.

For us, that was the decision to explore HOMESCHOOLING. <p>Our son was totally for it.. our daughter was reluctant.. but since beginning it.. it has made a world of difference in their lives.. and I am sorry I didn't consider it sooner.

I think your decision is a good one. I know a few homeschooled children and parents. The children are confident, well rounded, communicators with adults and children and they are better educated than most children in public schools.<p>There are lots of resources in Houston for homeschooled children. Some of these children even have a huge jump start on college credits. The Houston Community College as well as University of Houston, offer homeschooled children day courses.<p>Although I do also see the flip side. A couple of parents I know of, who have pulled their children out to home school, do not do a good job homeschooling. In the state of Texas, there are no exams, no qualifications to homeschooling. Only a note to the school, saying you will homeschool. After this, the parents are left totally on their own to teach their children. It's sad because these children are not getting any education at all. There parents are failing them.<p>There should be state test these children have to take to continue to be homeschooled.

Every year we give them the choice to go back.. their answer is always NO WAY !

That's awesome.

I realized then, that HS had given them so much more than I had ever hoped.. Their self confidence was back, to reestablish their values, goals, and ideas about life- without being pressured by unnecessary peer pressure, and they were given the opportunities to be
"independent learners & thinkers".. a skill that is needed for life !<p>Before we decided to homeschool... I had met so many HS that were incredible kids.. also, met the ones that were the "sheltered" children.. I had vowed that my kids.. wouldn't be like that..<p>My daughter who is 16 is planning to graduate from High School-- this Jan.. She has already completed a year of college, at 15.. and these courses she completed in college,gets to counted for double dip credit. <p>My son-- who is in 7th grade.. also works on 8th grade work.. and his goal is to be done with his 7th grade work.. so he can be in 8th grade.. by Feb. They are motivated in a ways.. that public school.. didn't do..and allowed opportunties.. they wouldn't have had otherwise. <p>They have opportunities to do numerous things as the funds permit---
(21 state trip/ 1 country exploring the states, doing hands on activities in those states, shark cage.. learning marine biology, working/shadowing a cardiologist, dissecting/ testing / and learning how a pig's heart is so much like a human's, fossil digs, etc)-- that their friends haven't been able to do.. in their learning.

Funny, I said a little of the same thing above.

One kid teased my son, and said.. " Yeah, if you Homeschool--- you will be flipping burgers the rest of your life".. My son's answer.. "I don't think so.. I will probably own a chain of burger stands-- and you will be working for me ! [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]

Sounds like he does have a lot of confidence. Cool!

A neat bonus for them.. is that they get to finish their school work earlier than peers.. b/c they don't have the distractions that other kids have in public... much of what is done in public.. is spent with classroom behavior managment.

Very true.

I realize that many parents cannot make this choice.. and frankly, this CHOICE may not be right for everyone. Single parents would have a particular hard time with this.. although I know several singles who do this.. and have the ability to arrange their schedules accordingly.

Exactly, a choice I'd love to pursue, but don't see much possibility in the reality of it for me.

I also know many highly educated people who have either begun to make this choice for their kids.. or who have done this much longer than I have.. after seeing the public setting with different eyes.

Yes, several on MB also. Browneyed girl, I believed Seeking Joy as well as others.<p>
I always get asked about the big S questions.. re socialization.. My standard answer is that if exposing your children to 6-7 hours of school work, that is designed to be a "one size fits all" approach, and giving them opportunities to be exposed to drugs, gangs, sexual acting out, values that go against what you teach them, rebellious, sometimes hateful kids, & being forced to participate in a setting where "watching their back" is mandatory, etc..is called "SOCIALIZATION".. then we will pass !

So very true. There's probably more socialization in correct home schooling than public schools.

Our kids do participate in different activites, (youth group, scouts, dance, piano, guitar, theater, bowling, work, etc.. plus, get to hang w/ their other friends) so the "socialization" issue is NOT an issue.

Exactly.

All of this to say.. we all have to make choices about what is best for our kids.. Keep up the great strides in allowing your children to be responsible for their school work.. it is their "job"-- and with that job comes pay offs.. in grades.. and promotions.

True, often too though, we may have to settle. For instance, I think my children would benefit from home schooling but it's making it a reality that's hard sometimes.

When we take that job out of their hands-- we have "disabled" their ability----- to make choices/ learn from those choices.

I think that's what I was doing with OS, taking the job of learning how to set his own schedule, and putting this in my hands.

Keep up the great work and encouragement here.
D[/QB][/QUOTE]

Thanks! You too!<p>Good post btw.<p>ANNA

UPDATE....<p>Today as I was coming home I realized OS would be home soon. I was close to Ci Ci's pizza and Smoothie King, his two favorite places. I stopped in and picked up a pizza, then stopped in at Smoothie King and picked up his favorite drink. I wanted to let him know, I was proud he made the choice to get his homework and make a schedule for himself. Amazingly, too, last night he picked up a computer book and started reading it, he told me he wanted to learn programming also. <p>I did the right thing getting the treats. I walked in the door to find he was staying with his schedule. He was getting his math homework. Here's the weird thing, I would ask him to get his homework immediately after school, this way he can get it out of the way and have the rest of the time for free time. I even told him once, "How about just doing half first?" He always said, "No way, I'm hungry, I want to get a snack, play with my friends, then get my homework." His own schedule is to do half the homework first then play. Amazing!<p>Well, back to the treats. I told him I thought of him on the way home, and decided to make a couple of extra stops, because I was very proud of him for his responsible choices. He was very, very proud.<p>C'ya,<p>ANNA