Les Bois,<p>Perhaps it would help you on here if you discuss exactly why she is not happy with the marriage and what you are doing to change the things she is unhappy with...People here can give great advice to help you make those changes.<p>Take care and goodluck,<p>ANNA

Thanks Anna and Pleas Help, <p>I have been quite busy the past few days and just now read both of your suggestions. I guess I will get my wife the v-day card and avoid one that is 'too' mushy. She really meant it when she told me not to tell her that I love her anymore. But I am showing her how I truly feel in other ways the best I can. <p>I have not let her read these posts. A couple of months ago I did email her the link to MB site. From what I can gather she only accessed MB once. That was when she was still involved emotionally with OM.<p>Anna2000, this is tough telling you what there is about our marriage that she doesn't like. Before OM, there was absolutely nothing wrong with M and she will tell you that. She knows she slipped up when she allowed OM to seduce her. I am tall and blondish. Her relationships before we met were, ironically, with dark, handsome Italian types. She still has a certain degree of attraction to those kind of men and she'll tell you that too. Guess what this OM looked like? You got it - straight out of Rome! The story my sister gives me about him is that he is a real Romeo. There aren't many women he can't have when he puts forth the effort. He wanted my wife, and he took her. Plain and simple. I have tried to point this out to W that she is merely one of many and I think she now sees that. But here is the obstacle; she says she found what TRUE love was all about through this man. She finally sees the day-light that he isn't going to marry her, especially with 4 kids. But she insists that whatever love sharing it was that she experienced with him is what she has been missing all her life, and she fully intends to set out and find it. <p>In a nutshell, she wants to be married and showered with love and attention, but not from me. She says this kind of 'love' (with OM) is only felt by the two people expressing it and she can't put a finger on exactly what it is. The tough part is that she admits that her best sexual experiences have been with me, so there is obviously another element of love that I may never know. Especially if can't explain it herself.<p>You all are probably going to say that she needs serious counsel about this problem. That's nothing new for she and I have both heard that before. To her, it doesn't matter. She says she just does not love me anymore and she is going to find someone she can love - love like the kind of love she found in good 'ol Romeo.<p>Hope all this makes sense to you. Sure as he!! makes no sense to me. <p>Sorry for the sloppy post, I'm off to work and don't have time to be thorough. <p>I sincerely appreciate your concerns.<p>
LesBois

IMO your wife is correct, there is something else about in-love that cannot be faked, learned about, or developed....you either fit someone or you don't. I have been exploring this for some time, we all know it's true, but it is scarey and frustrating to deal with (causes lots of friction) when you are already married and realize you don't have that connection, and may very well never have it....yet you got kids, and a life, and a spouse that claims you are killing them (guilt trip)...and yes I am ws, so I understand what your wife is saying. It is truly an agonizing place to be for everyone, no one wants (well most don't, some don't care) a ws back if they are not enthusiastic and will be in-love with you, instead just settles for you as the consolation prize, or duty. <p>On the other hand neither does the ws want to live the rest of their lives knowing how it is supposed to work, and turning away from that, so they leave you anyway, cause they recognize the marriage will never be anything more than caring, dutiful, co-habitation with sex...like roomates. No point in being married then. I have studied this (here) for 9 months, reading hundreds of "stories" looking hard at the psychology of marriage and intimacy, discussing at length (and often heatedly), counselling in my own circumstance, including a number of lengthy and intense discussions with the harley's (steve and jenn). In a nutshell, everyone (when pushed hard enough, including harley's) agree fit makes a difference, and you really can't be married to just anyone. However, there is substantial difference on who you can fit, the harley's (through MB principles) feel you can fit most anyone, unless you marry someone with a personality disorder.....and that whoever you married and had kids with you must fit some, and now have family and caring to build intimacy on, and they believe you can then morph that into in-love if you apply their principles. <p>Many here agree, and some have had success (but more have not, near as I can tell). This is also somewhat circular reasoning, cause no one is normal, and vast numbers of marriage partners (or prospective ones) are messed up enough to be classified as having a personality disorder, so again that IS part of fit. So if MB works it is cause you are normal, and if it does not, it is cause there is something wrong with you (something told to me regularly, I am just screwed up, I don't find that particularly helpful) I had one counsellor tell me fit (in one sense) is really a matter of 2 people with compatibile personality disorders. In ohter words 2 basically normal people (with their own baggage) can funciton ok as singles, but stress and bring out the worst in each other if they try to be marital partners. I know this is true cause I observe it all the time. You see it here regularly, spouses who are perfectly fine people with all aspects of their life, except their spouse. Some claim that just means you have to work on it, they are mistaken. It means they can never be a safe, nurturing place to each other cause they are psychologically incompatible, they do not have the capacity to nurture each other, because of who they are....and that's ok, we are made differently for a reason (IMO...be it genetic reasons, or spiritual reasons)) and we are not suppose to be able to fit (marry) anyone at all.<p>We should ascertain these things before marriage, but it takes a lot of skill and effort to select a compatible mate, most of us just wing it, and want to start families so marry whoever is in front of us at some point, and treated us half way decent, and hope for the best...and hedge our bets with vows, and promises. Obviously this approach has failed miserably, 80% of marriages are unahppy places and 50% end in divorce. But it does get the kids made, and give us a social structure to raise them in, and a life (survival) of some sort....but we have evolved socially, and now people want more, they want emotional/psychological safety and health too. That is what your w and many ws are speaking about, not just for them, but for their spouses as well, cause if one doesn't have it, neither do. She can't explain it cause it is complex, but it is like many things in life, you may not be able to define it, but you know it when you see it. I think we have inherent ability to recognize who (and how) well we fit someone this special way. Unfortuneately, it is also easy to become confused about it, cause lust, infatuation, getting needs met, etc. all can mimic this connection, this fit. Liking someone, respecting them, being friends with them, valuing thme have nothing to do with fit, and that causes so much distress, the why can't it work syndrome, I will work so hard, I am a good person, etc. etc.....cause it has nothing to do with fit...people can base marriages on just working at it, many here do, they settle in to an accomodation, an EN contract, you do me, I will do you....realizing that if fit is not easy to come by (and it isn't IMO), that they may never find anyone they can be that way with, so settling with what you got may be best. It is kind of a pragmatic rational decision to ignore your heart (where the truth about fit is revealed, in other words their is an emotional component to truth, that is why we have emotions), some can do that, some cannot, and that is essentially the decision most ws face (and bs too for that matter, when the marriage dies, as it does the moment an affair occurs).<p>These are my thoughts to help you understand what your ws may be saying to you, you can decide for yourself how real (re human behaviour) what I said is....many here are incensed by my observation marriage is far more than simple decideing to live with someone, if you don't fit you pay serious prices, emotional, psychological, and physical... everyone does, spouses, and children, life works that way. They are incensed cause they feel threatened by the notion a marriage should first be assessed for fit, before trying to "save" it, IMO marriage recovery cannot be fully successful without considering these issues, and in fact time after time, people reconcille (cause it feels good) and cannot sustain it...so after the honeymoon the marriage becomes again an existance and not the joyous, safe, nurturing place it should be. Some would say they just didn't try hard enough, I say there are reasons for so much unhappiness, and has nothing to do with trying hard. Many agree, once they ponder and look at the same things I have.<p>Now as for your w, based on your facts concerning the om, I don't think had anything to do with fit (although could be, fit is not a function of behaviour, and one can fit someone, but not marry em cause they are too screwed up). I think your wife may simply have succombed to the chase, the seduction my a skilled man...she did not succomb cause she fits, but cause she is not connected (to you).....people in-love (fit) do not have affairs (accoring to harley's, and I agree), in fact are incapable of an affair, cause they are oneflesh, and it would be an injury to "themself", won't happen. However, your w did get a look at part of fit, and how it feels, and recognized she does not have it with you. That is the story for many ws in that place, and circumstance (and several bs are dealing with the same thing here now, IMO, expecailly sad daddy, andf boppo). Whether you do "fit" I don't know, but wanting it and trying to make it happen are the wrong focus, and even counter-productive. You either do or don't....and if don't, you still may decide to settle and be good to each other, accepting that level of intimacy as a fair exchange in life (and for the kids). You will always have to protect it though, cause if either of you become aware of someone you do fit well, the marriage is at risk, hence the rules of protection need to be rigorously applied in settled marriages. The important thing (IMO) is understanding all this, and making a conscious decision whatever you do, settle, discover in-love, seperate (amicably)...but it needs to be a well-understood, thought-out decision....something human beings find hard to do in relationships. Too much game=playing and "ownership" of the other. People should keep in mind no one owes anyone anything in terms of intimacy, it must be a freely made choice, renewed everyday (which is another reason vows don't work) for a relationship to be healthy...the moment anyone is coerced in any way, resentment starts to breed....is that fair? Not particularly, but it is how humans work, and if you choose a friend, or a spouse, you must be prepared to accept they may "leave" you someday....and let them go with good will.<p>Back to you Les Bois, I would suggest you do not try to bind your wife in anyway, not persuade her, guilt her, pressure her to stay with you. That is not love, that is about you, and those who do so have very poor success rates. I think it is better to let her decide what the truth is re your connections, but you need to do the same...why do you "love" her, for what she does for you? How do you fit, is she "good" for you, do you feel safe and nurtured? Or do you just need someone to come home to and safe sex? What makes her fit you that no one else could do? Likewise are you good for her, can you nurture her, blossom her the way she needs? (and no, has nothing to do with bringing home the bacon, or having great sex), can you see her secret places, and are those secret places safe with you? Anyways, some think this is a lot of hooey, ok, they can go on wondering why they are unhappy and unfullfilled.....cause IMO the truth is we do decide to be happy, true, but there is also a "mysterious" connection that completes us, and that needs the right person. This is either true or not, and depending on what that truth is and whether we figure it right, our consequences are good, or not so good.<p>Along with the above, the plans mentioned here (when done correctly) are the way to go, you need to clean up your own act, be the best Les Bois you can be. That removes any impediments to her realizing you two do fit (and same for you). If you instead are focused on "getting" her back, you do not present yourself well..... I know it is hard, but IMO the only way to go is to let someone go....but ya gotta mean it, no faking, no empty words. Some can resolve this stuff together, some need seperation, some need divorce (people do remarry exspouses, after the air clears, and the truth can finally be seen)....but the thing is, if you fit, you will never lose her....you could drive her away by clinging and manipulation though, as well as anger and such. IMO marital crisis is good, it is a golden opportunity to deal with the real nitty gritty, the truth about the pairbond, but that has to include a willingness to accept you cannot live in intimacy with someone, and may make better friends, than mates. Unfortuneatly many don't do that, they value the marriage itself, and are not particularly concerned with the depth of the bond.... I think that is unfortuneate, and reduces one (or both) to emotional property. The marriage is not important, the people are, and married or not, they still have a relationship, the goal is to uncover whether both want to be with this person in intimacy more than anything else in life, and wake up together for the rest of their lives....it is very hard sometimes to tell someone you just don't want to do that...and when the spouse pressures them (in any way) they may stay (we all can be manipulated), but I have to ask...what's the point? If you bs really want to know what is in the hearts and minds of your ws, don't pressure us at all, be a safe place to hear the truth, and don't assume just cause we are married you are the one we need (or we are the one you need) to nurture us. It works better if you work on yourself HONESTLY (and we know when we are being manipulated, or if you deviate too much from who you really are)...and set us free (no anger, guilt, or woe is me from you) to work on ourselves and what we need/want. Then if recovery occurs it has a much better chance of being a "real" recovery, a permanent recovery. A marital crisis should be a time for serious reflection, and a search for truth, and dissolving it should be just as acceptable as restoring it...the trouble is, people do not want to do the work of uncovering truth, and want to just rush into the work of meeting needs, and getting along, and "saving" the marriage, and other sorts of gameplaying about keeping someone around to meet your needs, or the ws thinking running off will solve all their problems (when they usually don't even understand their problems).<p>Good luck<p>[ January 30, 2002: Message edited by: sad_n_lonely ]</p>

Well, the day has come early. My wife is pulling kids out of school Friday and is moving over 900 miles away to her family. My plan A did not work. She is packing as I type. When they pull the mini van around the corner for the last time Friday morning, it will be the beginning of the saddest day of my life. I had so much confidence that she would turn her thoughts around. I guess I lived on memories of better times. My prayers are unanswered. I can now only pray to God that the pain does not last for it is as difficult on me as was her A.<p>The OM is out of the picture, she just says now that she wants to do something different with her life - me not included.<p>I want to thank the good folks here that have offered their insight to my matter. You all provided a great deal of hope. May your own situations turn out better than mine and I pray for you too.<p>God Bless You All

Say LesB, Life is not over just because she Moved!...God did not fail you...Sometimes when we pray we want it all to happen according to our plan, God knows ALL that needs to happen in our lives..<p>My WS/W has had several affairs don't know if any physical..After many A's in the same house through 3 of them she seperated Feb 2001. While on her own she started more. While she lived across town I thought she was living it up having fun but I was told she was so depressed and guilty lots of days so down to get out of bed and she couldnt even go to work, doctors were trying to give her medicines and stuff.<p>I would always send her cards and stuff and never any response I thought that she was pitching them, you know, they were cards from the encouragement section, If I put anything mushy I had wrote it. Oneday I was over her house to get my D's, W wasnt there and I saw a stack of current bills on a table, and guess what was there in the stack of bills, all the CARDS and letters I've been sending her, that blew me away. She carried those things around with her everyday and I didnt know it, they were next to her tote bag she carries daily she must of have left it out, it was all rubberbanded together with the current bills.<p>Well late 2001 I moved away 1,000 miles due to she turned the D's against me, she ignored me, I had no family there, and her multiple affairs continued. She was not interested in reconciliation, she pitched counseling.<p>Well now I'm 1,000 miles away she starting to really see herself, she cant blame me for her actions and unhappieness anymore, for the first time 2 weeks ago she admitted she was part blame for the down fall of our marriage and apologized in her own way but never said where she failed but she knows, I dont have to. She's still continuing the Divorce should be final in May.<p>Its amazing though whenever an affair is on the LOW she will call and want to talk leading the conversations...When she's on a high she wants nothing to do with me.<p>Will I send her a V-Card yep, Thats because I know she'll carry it around. <p>So what I'm saying her time away [your wife] is when God will start to deal with her, she's only running from you but she'e really running into the place where God can speak to her. But you must move on and try not to dwell on what she is thinking or going through, my WS is excited to the fact that I bounced back to who I was when we first got married because it appears as a way of escape for her, she's caught between seeing who she was attracted to[me] and the affair on the other hand.<p>Trust ME on this fact...The PAIN will follow her 900 miles away, It will not let up even with family around, it will be as intense though if she were in the same house as you, so be encouraged....She's not walking into any freedom at all because she didnt leave the right way, she will face this all while she's there.<p>Go to Personalitytype.com...take the short quiz You'll see you and her. You'll get some insight.

It's Thursday, and I would get moving on this right away... I don't understand why you would allow your wife to move 900 miles away with the children. I would get a restraining order to prevent this from happening. Essentially she is kidnapping the children.
Maybe in the end the move is the right solution, but this must be decided and discussed and negotiated in a calm and fair setting. What is going to happen when she moves? Will you be allowed to see your children? Is visitation even going to be feasible? Are you comfortable with this? What could happen? Your wife relocates, remarries, collects child support from you and you don't get to see your kids. Are you prepared to see your children infrequently or relocate to your wife's parents state in order to maintain a close relationship with your children?
Decisions should be made jointly. What is in the best interest of the children? And both parties have a say. Is it in the best interest of the children to be uprooted from their home, yanked out of school in the middle of the year, and plunged into a traumatic separation from their father, without any joint discussion or legal advice.
Do not allow your wife to take the children with her. Tell her you want a formal separation agreement. Insist that the children be allowed to finish the school year- It's only another 4 months or so! I mean excuse me, but divorce is for a lifetime- what is the rush?
Yes, your wife has reason to fear that if you divorce in Idaho that she may not be able to leave the state. My sister who lives in Boise is in that exact position- she has joint custody of her two children with her XH, and if she moves out of state a judge will most likely give full custody to her X, as Idaho judges tend to think it's a great state to raise a family in. It does suck for my sister, who is from the East Coast and would love to move back- but who benefits? THE KIDS. They were traumatized by the divorce, but have adjusted because both parents are still in their lives, they didn't lose either parent, their life is consistent, structured and predictable. The difference is that their dad and his new wife live about 2 miles away, and they alternate between his house and my sister's house (which is the same house they lived in prior to the D). Their world has been shaken, but it has not fallen apart.
That's not to say that your wife should not relocate. But it must be a JOINT decision, made with the best interest of the children in mind. Your wife is in the fog and not of sound mind in this moment. Do not allow her to take your children on this crazy journey with her.
In the mean time be CALM be REASONABLE be FIRM and stand up for yourself. Divorce has lifelong consequences. Even separation does. When my H was in the A, and was planning to move out, my daughter's psychologist (she sees him for ADD) told my H- you can separate and reconcile later but it will traumatize your daughter and it can never be erased. My H never moved out and now that the A is over and he is out of the fog he is oh so glad he never took that step.
To me Plan A is not being a doormat it is- "I believe in our marriage, I believe in our vows and we have every reason to address our problems and to work to create a better marriage together which will require work on both our parts. Infidelity is unacceptable and destructive and intolerable. Let's work on our marriage and if our efforts fail then we can take the next step. But we and our four children deserve our every effort to preserve out intact family. Because an intact family is a treasure."
The next part of plan A is "I will address our problems. I will look at myself and address my bad habits and take this opportunity to grow as a person. I will try to address my faults and reiterate to my partner that I want to create a wonderful marriage and family. This means introspection, this means listening, this means talking and it means doing it without lovebusters." But that doesn't mean that you tiptoe around subjects and turn yourself into a doormat.
And re the Valentine's Day card I would definitely send her one. I would write a card saying "I remember....." then describe several treasured memories- maybe the day your children were born- maybe a funny moment you shared, maybe a romantic moment you shared. Then end it, No matter where we go from here, I am glad I have these memories with you.
Good luck and keep us posted!
Q: How old are your children?
Why did you wait 10 years to get married?
If you divorce, how do you envision maintaining your role as father?

espoir, <p>Thanks for the post. I have thought this out thoroughly. I knew the day was coming if my plan A failed. I have also given thought to return to New Mexico (where W family is) just to be near the kids AND perhaps attempt at more reconciliation. W and I get along fine, really, except I have not been allowed to express my feelings toward her for the past couple of months. She now says OM has nothing to do with it anymore. When she first declared that she wanted D, she said it was because she wanted to find TRUE LOVE that she found in OM. I think, as well as others close to the situation, now believe she in fact experienced a degree of lust that she had not before and mistaken it for love. She even told me the moment she THOUGHT she felt she fell in love with him and out of love with me. It was in the bed of OM's pickup truck after a concert. They had been seeing each other for a couple of months prior, but it was that particular event that completely emptied her feelings about me. I personally cannot imagine anything romantic about getting laid next to a rusty 'ol spare tire in the back of a Nissan pickup truck, surrounded by 20,000 screaming rock fans. But, that's where it happend, she says. <p>Anyway, I'm getting off track - guess I had to vent a little.<p>No, I do not like the idea of the kids being pulled out in the middle of a school year. Their ages are 10, 9, 7 and 5. The youngest has not started school yet. We moved from NM as the company I worked for then transfered me to Portland, OR. I am from NM too, but grew up in Idaho. As you mentioned, Boise is highly regarded as one the best places in America in terms of quality of life and raising families. Hence, the decision was made 6 years ago to make the move here and do just that -- Raise our family in Idaho. And believe me, W, the kids and myself love it here. We love the city, the schools, the nearby mountains with all it's rivers and lakes. Our 9 and 10 year-olds have season ski passes at the local ski mountain. We are not rich, but we had a good life together. There just isn't a damn thing I can do anymore to prevent the destruction of our family. At least not right now.<p>Here's the deal: I do not want to force W to stay, legally or otherwise. I don't believe in keeping prisoners. That could be more detrimental than anything else I say or do. As I said, we get along but if I do something that makes her feel trapped, it WILL impact the kids because we would probably start fighting. She is not the type of woman that will keep me from them. Her family would not have it either. They are good people and are a great influence on her. I have spoken with W's mother many times during this ordeal and trust me, she nor the rest of her family want this to happen. They are happy that W will be near them again, but they all wish there were another option other than divorce. Though I had already given it thought, one of W's sisters has suggested that I move back to NM to see what happens. She too thinks W is in a fog and doesn't know exactly what she is doing. I am in the semiconductor industry, and when the economical opportunity arises (industry is suffering right now), I should have no problem being hired back by the company I worked for in NM. Anyway, W and I have already talked about the kids coming back here this summer for a month or two. Again, it is unlikely she would prevent that from happening. <p>There are a variety of reasons we did not tie the knot earlier. The biggest reason being that her family is not financially well-off and getting them all coordinated timeframe-wise, (time away from work, etc) and make the trip to the Northwest was difficult. We considered getting married in NM, but I actually do not recall the reason it didn't happen there - probably another pointless technicality.<p>UPDATE: While I was writing the above text, W's brothers arrived in town to pick her and the kids up and drive them to NM. They were worried about a storm coming in and left about an hour ago. I reluctantly helped them load the van. This is so painful.<p>I will be back, I know I'm going to need somone to talk to.<p>
LesBois

Dear LesBois,
Oh my heart is really breaking for you. What a sad sad day for you. I hope God gives you strength in a time of sorrow.
I'm sorry if I came off a little strong in my post. It sounds like you have good reasons for allowing the relocation and that you have thoroughly thought things out. Since you can easily relocate back to New Mexico and have ties there, her moving back there is different from what I had surmised. I know what you are saying about not wanting to keep prisoners. And you letting her go forces her to face the consequences of her choice.
Marriage is hard. Having kids is hard work. It's easy to get selfish and fall for something easy and false. The "love" in an affair, that "heart pounding" high can only exist when there are no real life demands. No bills to pay, no dishes to wash, no kids waking you up in the middle of the night, no arguments about who takes out the garbage. And the problems just increase after divorce. Remember you are irreplaceable. You are the children's father. There is no one in the world that will have the connection with them that you do. I think your wife will realize that.
Just focus on yourself and use this opportunity to try to grow. Baby yourself though because this is a sad time and it's normal to feel depressed. And I mean VERY VERY depressed. Work on being the best person you can be.
Good luck!