Sounds good to me! He's really working hard on the manipulation isn't he? See it for what it is. Your response is perfect.<p>Take care,
MOM

Thanks MoM I appreciate your support. I read of thread of yours this morning. I was meaning to respond and time slipped away. I'll try to later.<p>Well, here's the email I came up with. I decided not to even give him a choice of time. If I do this then he'll drag his feet, won't know a definite time, and probably tell me just when ever he feels like picking them up he'll be there. <p>So here's the email back to him...

Christmas evening, December 25th, you can pick them up at 5:00 p.m. On January 6, Sunday, please have them home by 6:00. If you would like some Christmas decorations, I'm sure we could split the ones we've accumulated over the years.<p>I do understand next year, I will have them Christmas evening at 5:00 until the end of Christmas vacation.
<p>I have to say after his last email, I really felt defeated. I just wanted to go by the court order and (to put it bluntly) screw trying to find ways to give him time on Christmas day. Since the separation he's never once said thanks for any of the extra time I try to come up with, any of the compromises, or all the thought I put into trying to make us both happy. Instead, he just thinks I have my own agenda and could not care less about his feelings anyway. So WHY am I bothering!<p>Thanks all,<p>ANNA

Anna, <p>You did great..even with setting the time frame for him to have the kids..<p>With his comments about 'you have an agenda' and
such it's still trying to manipulate..which is why it bothers you so much..because your still learning to stand up for yourself against him..even in small things..and he's still trying to get you to go back to responding the way you always have..so Your doing wonderful BY NOT going
backwards here and allowing him to decide everything..<p>Even his comment about your not considering his feelings..you could have said, actually, your right..I didn't consider your feelings, you never considered mine all the years we have been married so why should I consider your nows that you no longer live here...<p>or...<p>You could have said..well, I did consider your feelings..which is why I decided that you could have the kids over night on Christmas where you could open gifts w/ the kids on the morning of the 26th...so you could still open gifts w/ them in the morning..<p>And as far as Christmas decorations..go through the ones YOU aren't using..and then you can meet him somewhere public..and give them to him b4 Christmas..or you could just give them to him Christmas day when he comes to get the kids..

Anna - Are you sure we aren't divorced from the same man?

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by cinderella:
<strong>Anna - Are you sure we aren't divorced from the same man?</strong><hr></blockquote><p>LOL Cinderella, I think there are aliens out there, these aliens have many clones... [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] <p>One quick note on my email to him. After I posted what I would say I added to it right before I sent it. A friend of mine told me I should let him know I did try to consider his feelings. So here's the actual email...<p>
I tried hard to consider your feelings. I stressed over how to make us both happy on this important holiday. I could have the children Christmas eve and night but I tried to consider your feelings, as well as your uncle's and aunt's feelings, too. I feel defeated in any effort I make.<p>Here's what I came up with....<p>Christmas evening, December 25th, you can pick them up at 5:00 p.m. On January 6, Sunday, please have them home by 6:00. If you would like some Christmas decorations, I'm sure we could split the ones we've accumulated over the years.<p>I do understand next year, I will have them Christmas evening at 5:00 until the
end of Christmas vacation.<p>Regarding your question about Santa, I just don't know how you are going to split the presents yet. The children still have fun with Santa. They still like presents from Santa. Older son still has fun putting out milk and cookies, even though he knows he doesn't exist. I do want to do Santa, I didn't mean for him to be totally out of the picture. I was just thinking it may be time to tell YS there is no real Santa. I can buy stocking stuffers and so forth, I am limited on how much I can spend though.<p>Let me know how you come up with splitting presents. If you want to, perhaps you
can lend me money, do a promissory note and I can buy half and you half.
<p>Just a side note, regarding the Santa part, he had asked me about Santa in an earlier email.<p>I have to say his response below, to the above email, through me for a loop. This was unexpected and for a moment I kind of felt like I was becoming him, paranoid and suspicious of his good intentions, and perhaps there were other hidden reasons for him sending an email that was actually cooperative and nice. <p>Well I guess I shouldn't look a gift horse in the mouth. <p>Here's his latest, amazing, almost miracle email...<p>
I feel we are making progress here which is a good thing.

I think the kids should open their presents on Christmas morning at your house. If you would set up the video camera on the tripod and shoot the event I would greatly appreciate it.<p>If they want to go to Aunt's with me for Smorgasbord on Christmas Eve, I can pick up and drop off. This would also give you additional prep time. Please ask them if they want to go there and open their presents from Uncle and Aunt on Christmas Eve. I realize they will be persuaded by presents and probably don’t care about the food [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] . <p>If you can give me an idea of what Santa might bring I can guide him to your house late Christmas eve and drop at the door.<p>Since uncle's money was, in my mind, intended for the kids in the first place, I have no problem asking him for money for their Christmas presents. Christmas was always special for me, even when I knew about Santa, and I want it to be special for my children as well. I agree there is no reason to go “ hog wild “ but I think something is in
order.

If you need money for their presents I will include it in my request. I realize this is an unusual circumstance and hopefully by next year we’ll be in a better position to finance Christmas. I don’t want to be paid back for the children’s Christmas gifts. I do think we should try and execute some restraint. I’m the worst at restraining on Christmas presents though so your input will be taken as “helpful advice” on this matter.<p>Also, this is a tough one, do you think we should exchange some sort of token gift to present the image to the children that even though we are divorced, we are mature enough to put our differences aside at Christmas, and they can have
some sort of feeling they still have a family, albeit we no longer cohabitate or socialize? I won’t fight on this one, lol, it’s just a thought [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] .
<p>Whewwww! I am still amazed. <p>Just a side note, his uncle had an LLP set up in my STBX's name. STBX is right, his intents for the money was mainly to be for our family, and for the kids. We've never had to touch the trust until now.<p>Well, regarding the email, I do have to say, most of the time, we can put our differences aside and try to work out things for the children's sake. I do know also, he loves his children, he had a horrible childhood and wants them to have a good childhood. Although, usually it seems like I'm the one compromising in all this. This is a very refreshing change.<p>I do feel a twinge of guilt. I kind of hate it that he's not going to watch the children open any presents. He loves watching them open them. I just don't feel guilty enough to risk my safety though.<p>So what do you guys think of this sudden change?<p>Also, on exchanging a gift between us. I don't want to sound ungrateful but at the same time I don't want to set a precedent on this with future gifts. I think we shouldn't. I don't even think the children will notice. What do you guys do? <p>ANNA

Anna - suggest a 'family' gift - as an exchange between the two of you - something the children would enjoy doing with you/him... maybe a board game for you - a train for him - something to set up and run with the kids...??? Just an idea.<p>Jan

I think a leopard doesn't change it's spots. I think he is trying a new strategy, just because someone is abusive does not mean they are stupid. It would not surprise me if in the near future he tries to capitalize on this "cooperation" in some way, to "persuade" you to give in on something else...be prepared. It is much like dating an abusive personality, they smile, do nice things, are often very appealing....UNTIL they gotcha. NO ONE changes overnite, if he can respect boundaries, and not have relapses for a couple years, maybe, just maybe, you could figure he has really seen the light. This little email, means nothing. He knew you had him over the barrel, he knows he has no control, he observed intimidating you did not work, now he is using another tactic. Don't, I repeat DON'T ever let yourself be alone with this man again, in your home, or elsewhere. These guys are powder kegs waiting to go off. In a way, having you in a compromising physical situation helps trigger it. By remaining distant, formal, and with your own agenda, you may in fact get the best treatment from him. Abusers usually are very meek and mild and cooperative when under others authority, and now you have the power of the court behind you....KEEP YOUR DISTANCE, physically and emotionally. Be fair for sure, and let it seem as often as possible he is making the decisions, that is good, do not ever be confrontational with him, just firm. Stick to your guns anna, you went through hell to get free, don't backslide. Good luck.

SNL,<p>THANK YOU! THANK YOU! THANK YOU!<p>That is awesome advice. I will be on my guard. You are right. It took me years to be free, I won't go back now.<p>I've been meaning to post again on your thread.. Even though you avoided my question. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] hehe I'm kidding as I know you must be overwhelmed by all those responses.<p>You are too needed at MB, please don't go. Your candidness can get you in trouble at times, but then hey sooo does mine. You are a great addition to MB.<p>I loved that I could always tell you exactly as I saw it. [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] Even if you didn't listen to me. [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Also, I wanted to respond on your thread about your book. I think you should write it. I think people will read it. I see the $$$$ now! However, I am sure I will be one of your worse critics. [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] <p>I also have been meaning to propose something to you. Would you consider for three months doing an experiment? Be a guinea pig so to speak. Do exactly what Steve Harley says. I mean EVERYTHING, even if you disagree. Have Thinker also agree for three months to do exactly what he says, and then come back on MB and disprove or prove his marriage techniques. I think this will help your book be successful. I think you spent most of the year arguing with the concepts instead of actually trying them 100% to see if they really work. I think this is why people on here don't buy your theories. You never gave it a 100% to see if there's a possibility. I think you owe yourself this much. <p>Take care,<p>ANNA

{{{Anna}}}<p>I'm so glad you got things organized for Christmas with the kids. Reading this thread was very helpful to me as far as boundaries and stepping away from the manipulations. Have a great Christmas!<p>lori [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]