LostHusband, Orchid, TnT,<p>That is more like the advice that ES needs to hear. SnL, it isn't kidnapping when there are no court orders, the location of the child is known, and the other spouse could have come and seen them. ES's W came closer with her actions but even that is not considered kidnapping. As for women getting a better deal, won't argue there, but that isn't the point here. End of story go away.<p>JL

go away? Ya lost me jl, I agree lh gave good advice, the same I gave in my fashion. And yeah it is kidnapping unless she can come and take her d with her.... what is your problem anyways jl? Methinks you would be better served igoring me, this is some kind of sore point for you it seems. If you have a personal issue with me, feel free to email me at jbz999@hotmail.com, or if ya want you can call me and chew me out (just email me for phone number, have talked to orchid a few times she can verify I do not bite). But do not dog me on the threads guy. I speak my mind, and I am serious (and sincere) when I do so, what more can anyone want? And I think I am every bit as conversant in human behaviour as you are, if not more so. I like your style ok, the touchy feely make nice stuff you are good at, I am more of a street fighter, and I do not believe molly-coddling is always helpful, sometimes a swift kick in the butt is in order....es screwed up royally, he did it for himself (is obvious in what he says, as well as what he does not say). I don't think he is evil, his behaviour is understandable, especially for a guy (me), but much as I feel for him, he is dead wrong, and his behaviour is agressive, and I will continue to say so until the thread dies, or other information persuades me different.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by sad_n_lonely:
<strong>And yeah it is kidnapping unless she can come and take her d with her.... </strong><hr></blockquote><p>Let me stoke the fire here a little bit. If I remember correctly when ES's wife abandoned him and took their daughter, for several weeks she would not allow him to see or have phone contact with the daughter?<p>Again this is going off of recelection(sp) and it's quite possible I'm thinking of someone else, but SNL what do you call that? Is that kidnapping? Just curious....<p>As I previously stated two wrongs by no means makes a right. <p>Another question for anyone who's following this thread. Does having people bicker back and forth help this thread? Is it helping Empty Shell? <p>We all have opinions born from experience or lack there of and I for one believe that we whould respect everyone's even if we totally disagree.

I have been reading, and do wish to reply,but do not have too much time at work.<p>I will post again tonight.

lh, I call it kidnapping when either parent cuts denies access, but that is not the point. The point is when a marriage breaks up (as in do not live together) custody goes to mom unless she does not want it, that is reality. That then becomes the default custody status, is it fair? heck no, but fair has nothing to do with it. So es attempted without force of law, to alter the custody status, he cannot do that without severe repercussions.....not to mention now he is just as guilty....it makes no difference what his wife did, or does, he has to live with it until he gets the courts to decide, that is how our society works. He violated that, and used his d as a pawn in the power struggle over custody. The struggle needs to be in court, not each parent pulling on an arm, that is a monstrous way to parent and belies his concern about his D welfare. I did add the caveat several times, if he was concerned about her physical well-being, then maybw, but it needs to be followed by swift court action, as you mentioned. He has not indicated she is in danger, he just wants to be daddy (understandable) and has his ideas about her welfare. Those are insufficient reasons for the action he took. His wife is not on trial (or subject to his approval), she can do whatever she wants, and will answer for it in court, es can do nothing, that is how reality works. <p>He did do something, and I think he will pay dearly for it. Now what does he do, deny his w seeing the child? Cause if she does the d may not come back, it is a horrible dilemma, and now he is guilty of doing the very things he used to justify his actions....but worse, he didn't have to, he deliberately used his d as a pawn. There is this pervasive notion in this thread the w is somehow on trial, she did it first, baloney, that is not the issue at all. The issue is es behaviour, and not only was it morally wrong, it was incredibly stupid as well.<p>If I were es, my first stop when all this started was just what you did, the law library, and did my homework. I would have documented all my wifes behaviour, and I would have ascertained under what circumstances does the court grant custody to a father, and done my best to make my life be exactly that, then petition the court for custody. I can only wonder why es has done none of this (apparently) and took very aggressive action against his wife instead. I think the man has issues, and is probably part of why the marriage failed. You can judge people somewhat by their actions, and es has as much or more to answer for as his wife, he certainly by no standard at all acted in his daugters best interest. If he is the better parent, he just reduced substantially the likelihood he can get custody, and if she needs her mother more than him (probably for a young girl) he has deprived her of that (assuming he does not intend to return her without conditions). Lastly lh, maybe I am being a little harsh, I hate controllers (or more accurately their behaviours I guess). I understand why women leave them, and they should. There are more than a few on this board, usually men, but not all...."managing" their wives lives, and proving they should stay married to them, gives me the willies actually. I don't know enough about es to say for sure, but his actions/words are very controller like, so I may be being a little more hard than called for. Anger is one of the good indicators of controllers (but not always), and I mean pattern anger, and he seems awfully angry.

SNL<p>I really believe at this point we've gone WAY past the point of helping. Though some may not agree with the actions that have occurred, the fact is they are now in the past, so our focus should be directed towards what can we do now to help ES but more importantly his daughter.<p>Respectfully, I've sent you an e-mail if you would like more discussion. Further, I encourage anyone who is passing the point of help to either take it to a different thread, take it off-line, or just drop it.<p>If anyone wishes to chat you can e-mail me at billwb70@hotmail.com

yep, I agree lh, good luck es, if chewing on me helps in any way, feel free...but jl, do it in email plz.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by LostHusband:
<strong>
I really believe at this point we've gone WAY past the point of helping. Though some may not agree with the actions that have occurred, the fact is they are now in the past, so our focus should be directed towards what can we do now to help ES but more importantly his daughter.
</strong><hr></blockquote><p>Bill,<p>Very good point. <p>Just something you have been stating and ES can correct me if I'm wrong...I think from what I read, the mother told him most of the time he could see his little girl at the home she was at, there were times she was very wrong though, when she said he couldn't but from the things I read, she mainly told him the address of where she was, and kept in contact. She told him he could come by and see her but he didn't want to do this because he would have to do it on her terms, so he chose not to see her. She also had daughter call him. This was not as much as I would have hoped she'd do, but she did do it.I also do remember one point, before she decided this, where he said she told him she wasn't going to tell him where they were moving to, but then she turned right around and sent him the address. She also started trusting him and correcting her mistakes by finally having him see her at Thanksgiving and leaving the daughter with him without supervision on Christmas, now she is probably kicking herself for that decision. <p>I think emotions fly so high people say and do things and later regret there choices or change their minds. Many mistakes have been made by both parties here. This little girl is being pulled in so many ways.<p>ES can't go back and redo this so my suggestion now would be to get child custody contracts through the net. They have do it yourself separation papers. There is information, usually posted by the state on a typical joint custody agreement. I would think they could agree on joint custody for now. Have each sign this agreement and have daughter then go to counseling to deal with any trauma she's been through from all this...<p>Would you be willing to do this ES? To go on the net and get an agreement and see if wife will negotiate with you. Although I do have a feeling your wife has already obtained legal counsil and your problem may be solved very shortly....<p>In case I'm wrong, I would suggest if you haven't done this already, go into www.google.com find the states website and the info they have regarding child custody agreements. <p>SNL is incorrect about the mother always getting the children these days...The latest statistics I could find which were out of date by a few years showed that on average around 60% mom's get primary custody, 30% joint custody, and about 10% males get primary custody. This number is growing every day. Also, I saw a report that showed more and more states have statistics showing 50% of the parents get joint custody now, and something like 40% mothers and 10% fathers... More and more states are going with joint custody...I know two fathers who have primary custody of their child/children right now.<p>You just have to find ways to go through our legal system, instead of taking matters into your own hands and going back on your word...<p>Take care and I will pray you make the right choies, as these choices could affect your daughter's emotional well being greatly andmay affect the end result of your custody.<p>ANNA

ES,
Its been a long time since I've posted but I saw your post and felt the need to respond.

While I understand what you did, I cannot agree with it. You really need to sit back and take the long view of things. You say your marriage is over and divorce is inevitable, so be it. That means that you will have future Christmas's in which your D will be at one or the others or hopefully both. Do you want to have this same battle every year??? I was headed for the same thing. I was fighting tooth and nail to keep my kids away from x and om.<p>A wise friend of mine asked me what would I do if my x married the other man, which she did, how was I going to react then?? Would I keep driving myself crazy trying to keep them away from OM?? <p>I finally realized that I was only driving myself crazy this way. As far as I know om/h and x don't do drugs, they haven't harmed the kids, physically or psychologically as far as I can tell. But I think that to keep them from their mother would be wrong. My x still makes lots of decisions regarding the kids I think is wrong, like working when she has the kids and ends up leaving them with om/h or at their friends for long periods of time, but my kids have adapted. <p>In fact, my D, age 14, has started coming home on those nites when x works and instead of staying with om/h, she would rather stay at home with me or here alone if I have plans.<p>What I am trying to say is that you are going to have to get along with your x in the future. By getting along now, it will make things better in the future. A case in point for me was that the X was supposed to have the kids Christmas Day and she asked me to drop them off Christmas Eve after church.<p>I initially said yes, but then started thinking that I wouldn't have the kids on Christmas Day. So I asked/told my x that I wanted some time with the kids on Christmas Day hoping she would say okay for the afternoon. She suprised me by sayiing just to keep them after churh on the Eve and then just bring them over when they were ready on Xmas Day. <p>So I feel I got the best deal, CHristmas morning with kids. It was kind of funny in that my s, age 11, was in a hurry to go over to his mothers to get more gifts while my d wanted to go visit her friends before going to her mothers.<p>So my advice is look at long term plan. Don't react off of your emotions. Your child will be far more happier if she gets to see both parents on the holidays and special occasions. I am lucky in that my x loves to work and she works every other holiday and then either the day before or after so I get the kids for most of the holidays.<p>Also you probably can get "no removing children from state without the other permission " in the divorce decree. <p>Hang in,
Bob

ES,<p>Listen to Anna and LH they are giving some very good advice. You and your W need to sort this mess out with the minimum damage to your D.<p>God Bless,<p>JL<p>PS: LH and Anna you two have done what I hoped someone would do. Talk sense to ES and offer some ideas to resolve this mess.

Hi ES (and Hopeful too, if you're reading),<p>I have tried to be a good friend to both of you over the years, and when you two last posted in the same thread, I felt completely torn -- and vowed to stay out of this. I care about you BOTH, and HATE to see what your marriage (and parenthood) has become. It's just so darned sad!!<p>Yeah ES, I think Christmas could have been handled better, just as hopeful could have handled her leaving better. Your daughter DOES seem to be in the middle, and the SADEST part of this is that YOU BOTH LOVE HER - I **know** you do!! <p>Please, please find some way to sit down together and DISCUSS THIS, even if it is with a mediator. PLEASE!! <p>I send you BOTH peace and love this holiday season. My wish for you two is that the NEW YEAR will bring new resolve to find a PEACEFUL solution to the co-parenting of your daughter.<p>Love to you BOTH!!

ES,<p>We are all concerned about your daughter. Please give us an update.<p>ANNA

I had intended to post sooner, but my brain has been sort of playing tricks on me lately. I went to the doctor on Friday, and was taken off of work for at least six (6) weeks.<p>I know everyone has this impression of me being some type of monster who is cold, caloused and has no conscuous (sp?) but I can assure you that this is not the case at all. In fact the stress of everything that is going on has been beating me up very badly. . . Anti depressants, and anti anxiety medications, sleeping pills and medication for migraines have all been added to my daily routine since all of this has started.<p>Wednesday night, my SBX my D and I met at the police station, and sat down with one of the officers who came out to my apartment on Christmas night. We tried working out a visitation schedule for my D. While I did not think that this ended up addressing the issues my D is facing, I was willing to try and work within it.<p>. . . Then as we were walking out to the parking lot, my SBX handed me divorce papers. . . sort of. . .In our state you are not permitted to "serve" your spouse. . .she did. The paperwork she served me with was a single sheet of paper, that did not have a court stamp or seal, nor did it have a case number on it. . . from everything I have been able to determine, this is completely illegal.<p>My D and I have been having a pretty good time together, all things considered. She has talked with her mom on the phone once for about five(5) minutes the other day, but that is the only contact they have had.<p>From the converstaions I have had with my D, her mother has spent an awful lot of time teaching her to hate anyone who is close to me, and in one case told me that her mother said if she liked one particular person, her mother would never come pick her up. It is so sad, especially since my D is one of the most loving people you will ever meet. She is always giving friend s and family hugs and kisses.<p>I check my daughter yesterday and found that she had lice. We spent several hours removing all of the lice and their eggs, then went down and got her hair cut a little bit shorter to try and help make it easier to care for.<p>Lice has been a problem for some time now. My D had missed a lot of school because of lice, and my SBX would never treat my D or the house well enough to get rid of them. I have never had a single lice in my hair, and have been checked regularly to be sure, so the only place the my D can be getting them over and over again is from her mother.<p>I finally recieved a list of counselors from the insurance company on who can treat my daughter, and she should be having her first appoinment on Monday, and in light of the stress that I am under, I may be making an appointment for myself as well.<p>I tried sending my W an Email the other day asking her why this all had to be such a war, and why would couldn't try working something out for our D, but have not received a reply to that Email.<p>I can't really think of anything else to say at the moment, so I will close for now.

ES,<p> Hi I havent posted on here in a very long time but I still come about once a week and check up on every one, so why did your post draw me to the keys you might be asking...well I'm not sure [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img] , it could be cause we have a few things in common, my S is 8 but living with me while my WS is living 12 hours away in NM with the OW, my S does not like her at all. (and BTW for the flame throwers I let him make his own mind up on that...he has a choice if he likes someone or not) he told me this back in Sept last time his father brought OW around so I told his father and we sat down together and talked to our S about this... he knows how he feels and where his boys feelings come from, but none the less...he is still pushing for joint costody, he wants my S to have to live with him and OW all summer long when OW will be having to care for him and his sister while their dad is at work...I am in the middle of fighting for that not to happen,I am like you in not wanting anythng to hurt my kids, he hurt us once by leaving with OW and he has hurt the kids by not keeping the promise that the OW would not be pushed "down their throats" but for now I have costody and thats how it stays until the judge says other wise (in MO the parent with physical coustody when the papers are filed have the kids till its said other wise)....well dont guess theres really a point to this post besides that I wanted to let you know I know how you feel and what drives you to do the things you do for your child...I will do anything to keep mine from being hurt again...the kids of theses messes have been through enough bein up rooted having what they knew as lives torn up...think about what it does to us...and then think....they are children....do they really know how to deal with all of this crap? I really dont think so...so I'll do every thing in my power to keep them from having to.<p>Take care you and your D are in my thoughts<p>Lesa
[img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img]<p>[ December 30, 2001: Message edited by: LMS ]</p>

sad-n-lonely.
TALK ABOUT AN AGRESSIVE TONE! really, while you're entitled to your opinion i would like to know who made you the arbitor of all that's right and correct? <p>i suppose that from your point of view it was just peachy for his WS to walk out taking this man's daughter along...with no discussion or agreement. and i'm also quite sure that you would advise this man to plan A his butt off and do anything...anything at all to save his marriage to this arbitrary and caprecious woman who has decided on her own that this family unit must be desolved! well yippy for you.<p>sorry but there is a decided bias here and you have expressed that bias most eloquently! men plan A...woman do what ever they damn please! an over statement? possibly but not by much.<p>well here's a flash for you. fathers have as much right to their children as mothers. get it?! and here's another flash. when the mother is a lying, cheating, fornicater it just may be very possible that the father would be the best primary care taker of the two. <p>by the way it was so kind of you to aknowledge this man's righ to be angry. very demnocratic of you and all that.<p>poodlepapa

Poodlepapa, - Barry, No disrespect, but the affair ended a couple of years ago, and this couple were in recovery. The husband had a friendship with a different WS that he did not want to give up, both of these spouses refused to POJA - causing the demise of their marriage. The wife left him when there was no resolution, no POJA, and after he refused to see her point of view, right or wrong. They have decided to end the marriage.<p>Yes, both have a right to have quality, uninterrupted time with the child. But, if they didn't learn the principles of POJA while married - it is doubtful that they will learn this, even when it is in the best interest of their child, - while divorced.<p>TNT

I thought I would take a few more minutes for another brief update. . .I had actaully intended to reply to most of the folks who have taken the time to give their comments, but quite frankly, I don't have the engery for that. Instead I will simply post on the latest occurances in this particular soap opera.<p>If that is OK with everyone.<p>My W called tonight and spoke with mym D for a few minutes. Then my D asked her mother if she wanted to talk to me. She handed me the phone.<p>My W and I talked for close to an hour, and then she hung up and called back again later. The gist of the conversation was that we needed to stop the war. That we needed to sit down. . . just the three of us . . . my W, my D and I and talk about what we are going to do. How we are going to take care of our D the best way possible, with the least amount of blood shed involved.<p>I am waiting now, to see if my W actually comes on line as she said she would so that we can talk some more, and to try and finalize our meeting in person to be able to sit down and talk.<p>I know that many of you feel that I am simply trying to blow smoke here, but it has been my goal since my W walked out this last time to be able to sit down and talk about our D. Our marriage is over. We both know that, but we are going to be in each others lives for at least the next 10 years, until my D turns 18, and we have got to find a way to stop playing games and start working toward the benefit of our D. This is what I have been working toward, even though most here do not believe me. I just hope that my W follows through on what she said and the conversation we started earlier today can continue.

ES, <p>You have been carrying a large burden that is troubling to all that care for your and your family. I am glad you are going to have this opportunity to talk with your W. For the sake of your precious daughter. <p>I pray that all goes well. No pressure just support. K?<p>Take Care,
L.

ES - I sincerely do hope you two finally learn POJA at this point. I really do. That means that your wife and you will be committed to whatever you two agree to - no MIL to interject an opposing position, etc.<p>POJA is what is definitely needed. Leave your daughter with some security after all this turmoil for years, that is the least you two can do.<p>And I do hope you begin to get your strength back soon, ES, maybe being off work is a good thing for you right now.<p>TNT

Barry,<p>I see your pain in all your post. I looked for any thread you have but I didn't see one. Am I over looking this? Would you like to start your own thread and share your story?<p>Also, SNL respected what others said to him and stopped posting on this thread. I would suggest you drop your anger with SNL and tell us what is really on your mind. Why are you hurting so bad?<p>Please note too, there are as many women in here plan Aing their husband as their are men. I think if you will go through all the stories you will see this.<p>Good luck and I hope you work through all that anger.<p>
ES,<p>You say you, your wife and daughter sit down at the police station. I am hoping your daughter was taken somewhere separate and not involved in the negotiations. If not perhaps you could consider that next time. I think she is too young to hear the disputes going on.<p>Can you share with us what you think a fair custody agreement with your wife would be? <p>Also what did your wife say was a fair custody agreement? <p>Also regarding the lice in your child's hair. I know this is frustrating, I have not got to experience this with my own children yet but I am sure my time will come. However, keep in mind my friends children have had it and I hear these days the lice reject the medicines because people use it so frequently, they are now immune, and once you get it in your household it often comes back. Try not to be frustrated with your wife. When the lice occurences happened before you say your wife didn't do a good job with treating the areas. It's in the past now but ask this question...Did you pitch in and help her with this by cleaning all the rugs and bedding? I'm not trying to upset you, just wanting you to see there are always two people in the household, each responsible for their share.<p>Take care and thanks for answering my questions regarding custody in advance.<p>ANNA