thinker...I am leaving without money and he has money, a secure job, thinker nothing. This is not a woe is me, just pure truth and that is all.<p>snl...Why do you say these things? Do you plan on giving me everything or something? Otherwise you (if you leave) leave with enough resources to own a home free and clear, have zero debts, reliable transportation, all the household belongings, and enough money in the bank to not work for 5 years if you so chose (and were reasonably frugal)....and that is assuming I never gave you anything more (whether legally obligated, or morally obligated). You also told me you get 1/2 my social security (obviously not for awhile, still an asset). In addition I assume I have child support for 1 child 2 more years, and some kind of stuff for the 2 in college. Finally it is your decision not to continue to be in the business, and the financial repercussions that follow I have no control over. Lastly regardless what anyone thinks of me, I will not let you suffer in this way at all.<p>
As for you wifty..... *raspberries* sheesh, talk about pontificating. But that is ok, if bashing me helps thinker, be my guest.

As far as being in a good situation, yeah, SNL says we have enough money, we don't. He doesn't do the bills, I do the bills. Why don't I have enough money in the account right now to pay the rest of the bills? I asked him just yesterday or the day before. He said we will make it work. <p>We have shares of stock, but I don't count them as an asset, we could lose them in a minute. I have a 7 year Ford full size van, that has 125,000 miles on it. It doesn't provide enough heat in the winter, and just got new tires on it.
Why have such a big vehicle when it will be only myself, and maybe one other person living in my home. Why pay for the insurance on this vehicle?<p> Also, when he was in Arizona having fun with the OW, he bought a house out there. (It was a house for the 2 of them - not SNL & Thinker). It was not paid for by our joint account, we didn't have money to pay for it. We bought it with my settlement from my injury. That is how the stocks got bought too. The house we have here, needs lots of work. Woodwork, trim, flooring, landscaping, septic field doesn't work good - hasn't for the last 5or6 years, we always have a septic puddle in our front yard, dirt piled against the house on N and E sides for earthberm house needs landscaping. <p>The solution to get ahead is to get a decent job and find a job with good benefits. We pay for our own insurance and this is eating us up every three months. The rates keep going up. Plus it is a high deductible insurance.<p>I don't see any other solution, with the insurance we have now, I have to meet the high deductible in order for any coverage to be paid. Plus we have insurance for 6 in this family, and that costs us plenty. I am going to beable to afford that with the wages he will give me, plus pay house payment, plus utilities, plus everyday necessities, car insurance, house insurance, animal upkeep, clothing, etc. I am a frugal person, and for him to tell me to try to be a frugal person, he is not considerate again. Between the two of us, SNL will agree I am the most frugal. I buy meat at the store reduced because of expiration for selling, buy products on sale in bulk amount, look at the reduced rack for damaged products, and at the clothing stores look for the clearance signs. <p>SNL will get along, he will have to hire a person to answer the phone and make do. I guess he will see all that I did for the business plus everything else. If it wasn't for me, the business would be a mess, and it wouldn't of made money like it did.<p>[ January 25, 2002: Message edited by: thinker ]</p>

thinker...Also, when he was in Arizona having fun with the OW, he bought a house out there. (It was a house for the 2 of them - not SNL & Thinker). It was not paid for by our joint account, we didn't have money to pay for it. We bought it with my settlement from my injury. <p>snl...You want to know why we don't get along? This is why, this and the countless other times in the last 24 years you lie through your teeth, to make yourself look good. You know wifty, I have come to believe what you (and others) say is correct, people really do have different realities. I gotta believe what thinker says is not deliberately malicious, and untruthful, but it sure does come from a different planet (than me, regardless of who is on the "right" planet), I don't know who she is, and I am fast not wanting to know.<p>[ January 25, 2002: Message edited by: sad_n_lonely ]</p>

PLEASE GUYS!!!!!!!!!<p>Get OFF the forum tonight and thrash this out. I think it is absolutely ridiculous that you are having this ongoing ARGUMENT on the board.

I'm with Nina!<p>I've said (and thought) all along that you could heal A LOT of pain if you could just STOP the computer wars!<p>If you can't talk, let the lawyers do it. This can't be good for either of you!!

thinker,<p>in business, everyone is replaceable, no one is sacred, there are hundred of admins, accountants, finance people, bosses, secretaries, bookkeepers, there are even temp agencies to offer ALL these services. so eliminate your delusion that you are a key member of the business. . .<p>your view that he couldn't do without you is unrealistic, period. Learn to separate the business from the relationship. They are different, and there have been several marriages here that have imploded where the couple work together, because of the added stresses and expectations of the job.<p>When you are at work, there has to be a dividing line, where you become an employee, responsible to a task, and nothing personal comes into play.<p>Talk to sue, out in washington, she was a president and her H worked for her. He imploded for business stress reasons, etc. Look at FW and her H. they used to work together. . . your business and marriage combination is a risky proposition, fraught with danger, and both must be clear and have an agreement in place before you become an employee. Plus both of you must have the same business goals, and there must be a hierarchical arrangement, which is different than marriage. . . which is an equality arrangement.<p>so get rid of the business thoughts. . . concentrate only on improving yourself as far as your personal relationship, nothing more.<p>SnL, <p>I have walked in your shoes, so it is not pontificating, i am of what i speak. it is not braggin' if one has done it, and i have done it all.<p>wiftty

Well, be honest SNL, I didn't know anything about him buying the house in Arizona until 2-3 months after the affair. I was wondering why money was leaving our account. I found a cashiers check made out to Sue ****** and it was for $900 and some dollars. SNL when revealed to me that he wanted a house, I said NO, NO, NO. SNL and I are arguing about this now, he finally admitted that I said NO, I don't want the house. SNL told me at that time, that he already made a done deal and he couldn't go back on it. So that is the truth. <p>The reason I have posted is things need to be stated in the right manner. I am hurt by what SNL says. This is the truth and nothing but the truth.

Thinker,<p>I understand why you dwell on the OW, it's because SNL hasn't admitted wrong doing yet, he hasn't taken responsibility for his own actions. You can not move forward with him until he accepts his responsibility and unfortunately he hasn't and probably won't. As long as he doesn't take responsibility, then deep down you fear it could happen again. <p>I don't think SNL will never get what he's done. He'll always justify it, this is his personality. It's time to move on...You will not find happiness until you do or be able to move on until you do.<p>Take care,<p>ANNA

Tired Lady?

anna, you are out of the loop, I have made it clear from the beginning I agree affairs are wrong, I was wrong, end of story, that is not thre issue. I did it, I was wrong, it was my responsibility, thinker knows this, as does anyone else who cares to search my posts. Our marital problems have absolutely nothing to do with the affair anyways. What you are all witnessing is EXACTLY how we have lived for 24 years, the affair is just more ammunition.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by TowardsTheFuture:
<strong>Tired Lady?</strong><hr></blockquote><p>Posted in 1999 and 2000. Last summer his sister came on to tell us that she'd died in a tragic car accident.<p>She once said she'd be happy to watch the OW choke on a piece of meat and not help her. She and I became friends after that... I was horrified by that statement and knew there must be a caring person inside of her. There was. She could be very loving, she'd just lost that person through the pain.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by sad_n_lonely:
<strong>anna, you are out of the loop, I have made it clear from the beginning I agree affairs are wrong, I was wrong, end of story, that is not thre issue. I did it, I was wrong, it was my responsibility, thinker knows this, as does anyone else who cares to search my posts. Our marital problems have absolutely nothing to do with the affair anyways. What you are all witnessing is EXACTLY how we have lived for 24 years, the affair is just more ammunition.</strong><hr></blockquote><p>SNL,<p>I respectfully disagree with you. I am not "out of the loop" you say it's wrong and so forth but you when actually talk about the incident or what happened, there is no remorse. I repeat, you haven't accepted responsibility for your actions.<p>ANNA

I think he has accepted responsibility for the affair Anna, I've read his posts for the year I've been here and I've never heard him say the affair was a good thing. Remorse? Well, it's hard to convey here, we can't see his face.
I think an important point to bring up is does Thinker believe if the marriage did stay together would she ever be able to forgive him for the affair and not hold it over him? It was what my WS asked me and at the time I said yes but quite honestly in hindsight, probably not and that's no way to go through life.
Even Harely admonishes the BS to not throw the affair at the WS and yet we see here that it's being done publically, we are not in their home to see how it really is.<p> SnL needs to do the honorable thing and be responsible for her well being financially, that's his lot. She has no job at this time and he knew that when started moving away from the marriage, the ball is now in his court to poney up and take care of her.<p> I hate to see another marriage die because of an affair but it seems that this one, considering the level of venom we see here, is not going to reach recovery, which is about forgiveness and acceptance, something we're not seeing a lot of here.<p> Thinker, are you taking any meds to help with the anxiety? I've been taking Celerex to handle mine and it works well with no side effects. I think you really need a hand at this time.

SNL,<p>You put your "lover" before your wife, you put her on a pedestal. The woman who cheats on her husband and justifies it, over the woman who had your babies, stuck with you through hard times, and helps run your business. You put this tramp over your wife, of course she is hurt. Also, again! your statements do not sound like someone who wouldn't justify a second or third affair. <p>Until you get the affair resolved your marriage is hopeless.<p>Quit putting your wife below this cheater.<p>ANNA

Alright snl, I challenge you to lay it on the line in a few **short** paragraphs. Let's hear the remorse and what you think of the OW.<p>I'll go first.<p>I had an affair. It seemed like a "love affair" but it wasn't real love. I caused a kind of pain for my (then)H that I should have understood, given the fact that I had been a BS years before.<p>I accept that I did something reprehensible with a man who used me also. He knew I was married and pursued me, as I did him. It was wrong, it was ugly, and I have spent many hours begging God, my (now ex)H, and myself for forgiveness. <p>I will wear the label for the rest of my life. I will guard my heart, and never allow myself to get into such a position again.<p>I am worth more than that.<p>Your turn.

Boy, do I know how to kill a thread, or what? [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img] <p>I hope you two are TALKING.<p>snl, if you come back on, I really do want a response.<p>thinker, take CARE of YOU, please!

I have been thinking about it sheryl, actually had a very intensive discussion with steve and thinker re the nature of my remorse. It is not a simple issue at all. Remorse does not mean the same thing to everyone, but I gave it a shot. Remorse has 2 components, 1 is external, and is about the affect of your actions on others...the other is internal, and essentially how you feel about your behaviour as affects you. Too often remorse here is black and white, either you renounce the relationship with op as some evil thing, and pledge undying committment and enthusiasm to the marriage, or you are just dog crap and not remorseful at all...I kinda object to that rather self-serving (bs biased) definition of remorse.<p>For example, I run over some kid on a bicycle....whether my fault or not I will have a great deal of external remorse...however I may or may not have internal remorse....depends...if I was doing 50 in a 25 mph zone, and trying to dial a cell phone, and ran through a crosswalk, I would experience extreme internal remorse (which is the primary reason I don't drive like that, I DO NOT want to experience that remorse, and of course that is why we all self-regulate...others could do that, run over the kid, and still not experience internal remorse, just unpset they now will have consequences to pay, your standard sociopathic behaviour, so obvious in many of the marriages here.<p>Or you could be doing the above, and the kid runs out in front of you...ok, their fault, but you still have some internal remorse, cause if you had been paying better attention, and driving slower, you may have had a chance of saving the kid from his foolish mistake, but not the same as running him down in a crosswalk, where he had every right to be. But if I was driving in a responsible manner, the kid came recklessly out of nowhere, I would feel no internal remorse at all, there would be no reason too, and I do not believe in phoney emotions.<p>I have plenty of external remorse, I am distressed at being the cause of others unhappiness, and emotional pain. Internal remorse is much more difficult....had I been duped, used, preyed on, ect, I would be remorseful as a result of being taken advantage of (I am emotionally an extremely honest person)...maybe I was, maybe I wasn't, I don't have enough data to say, but I don't think I was. If I had been predatory, and acted selfishly, and hurt the ow, I would be remorseful about that, but I was not so motivated....had I been angry, and trying to get even in some way with thinker I would be remorseful about such behaviour, but that wss not my motivation either....the fact of the matter, right, wrong, or indifferent...I was emotionally estranged, made friends with someone for the sole reason of being friends, was upfront and honest every inch of the way re who and what I was, and found myself in emotional places I had no roadmap for...I did the best I could to be honest with my head and my heart, and not live leagalistically (by rules for the sake of rules), but by what made sense, and it made no sense I could not care about this person, all I wanted was for her to be healed to be happy, and I seemed able to do that, so I gave myself....I am not likely to ever be remorseful for that, it is who I am.<p>However, I now understand better the consequences of those kinds of choices, and am unlikely to ever make such again (a. cause I can recognize it now...and b. because the price is too high)...but that falls under the category of life experience, not remorse. You have to understand something about me sheryl, I fundamentally care nothing about rules, I am psychologically unable to care about rules, just for the sake of rules. I am focused on what works, what makes sense, and if it violates a rule it does not bother me at all. For others rules are stability, it is how they cope, and feel safe....rules work just the opposite for me, I feel lost if the rules make no sense, and very very unsafe. I don't think either state is right or wrong, they just represent the different kinds of humans that exist. Rule makers/followers constitute the larger portion of our species for very good reasons....rule um... "breakers" are a much smaller percentage, but are vital to our species health, without us we would all die. Because the rule makers are the largest group, they set the species agenda, and act to restrain us breakers...but likewise we keep the rule makers honest, and the boundaries expanding. In sciencd and such the issues are more clearcut (but still much conflict, witness now the ethical arguments over genetic issues)...in behavioural areas is much more conflict, such is the nature of our species. I broke my vows yes, but I did so after I ascertained they don't work, and don't make any sense. My "explorations" have verfied my initial assessment, and in fact have strengthened it... love has nothing to do with vows, it has to do with the psychology of two individuals and is directly proportional to how they fit. It is not a decision, cannot be fabricated in any way, and is not behavioural determined.....hence it is impossible for me to feel remorse for breaking them....had I come to different conclusion, then most likely I would feel remorse.<p>This is an analytical appraisal, but it is consistent with my emotional assessment too, if it was not, I would have to keep working at reconcilleing the issue. I arrived at the emotional assesment first, but could not be sure until I subjected it to rigorous analytical appraisal. There is absolutely no psychological argument validating vows based (duty based) basis for in-love.....so either feelings count, or they don't, and I say they do count.<p>I will try something similar to your letter request based on the above (cause that is who I am).<p>But I leave you with one bemusing observation re all this.....we talk talk talk about the importance of honesty, sharing your deepest feelings and emotions, and thoughts as radically as possible....we acknowledge that can be tough on people but you must not critize or judge one so doing......many of the bs here lament this over and over, my ws will just not talk, not reveal their truths.....so here I do just that, and not only thinker, (who at least has a sorta emotional excuse) but so many of you are rude, disrespectful, obnoxious, and downright insulting to someone striving to be as vulnerable as possible re truth. I have no problem at all understanding why many of you lost your spouses....or never hear the truth from them.<p>[ January 25, 2002: Message edited by: sad_n_lonely ]</p>

wow snl, very interesting. <p>My H is still not home from work [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] , and I've read a new magazine and done a few crosswords, so now I'm back for awhile. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Okay, can I just say some things that come to mind from your response without doing the quote thingy? Because there is an overall flavor to what you've written that I'd like to address.<p>I know someone who said to her spouse, "I'm sorry I hurt you with this, but I'm not sorry it happened"... I suppose that would qualify under the number 1 (external) remorse. What I'm reading from you is that you HAVE that remorse, but not the internal (I hurt ME) remorse. Is that right?<p>Here's the difference between us, snl, like you need *me* to tell you [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img] ; as much as I love to write and can certainly go on and on at times, I am at my core a "bottom-liner." One of the main reasons my ex and I broke up (aside from the infidelities) was the complete lack of communication. I would say, "What do you feel like for dinner tonight?" and he would say, "When the sun peaks through the clouds like this, on a hot summer day, my stomach yearns for a barbequed steak." (Not an exact response, but believe me, darned close). There was NO SUCH THING as a bottom line for him.<p>snl, it seems like there is no such thing as a bottom line for you either. <p>I'm not asking you to call your OW the devil incarnate, but I am asking you to realize that you BOTH KNEW that what you were doing was wrong, and therefore she is, at the least, damaged, and at the most, purposely dishonest and cruel (as you were, and I was, and my ex-H was, as ALL WS's are). Can you say that? <p>Is there any way within you that you can "bottom line it" for me? <p>By the way, I do thank you for your thoughtful reply.

SNL,<p>Can you ever answer a question straight forward without involving numerous paragraphs, kids on bikes, squirrels, rabbits or some other BS?<p>Just so you know, Yes or No works!!!<p>And **NO** I'm not a bitter betrayed spouse anymore. Life couldn't be better for me after the D, so don't try that approach.

Life is far too complex to reduce it to a bottom line, without a lot of reasons why you are at that bottom line.....on the other hand, one can make life so complicated one can justify everything, so one does need to take a stand, cause indeed principles are principles, and there are only a few.<p>The circumstances dictate the degree of complexity. In general it is wrong to steal, doesn't take much thought, it is either yours, or not (by the societal rules we live under, and the coveting rules of scripture), and you just act accordingly....but if I wanted too, I could concoct a scenario where anyone would steal, no matter how "moral" they are. That is the problem with rules, you cannot put human beings in a ridgid box. I can do the same with any morality you care to name, it is easy. I use to do this with thinker, she would take some position, I would question it, she would essentially say it is a rule, I would say so and offer a circumstance where the rule didn't apply, and she would get angry with me....all I was doing was trying to make her understand the decision had to be based on what made sense, not a rule, she had to explain the reasoning behind the rule and why it applied now......as you can imagine we did not get along well. She felt on trial, and I felt like she was unreasonable and didn't care about outcomes, only rules. The thing was I didn't realize for many years, is we were both right, and both wrong....and we never learned how to "see" each other, I am not sure we even can.<p>Intersting MB counsellors, jen and steve are both very rule oriented too, steve will go to the mat with me, and makes some good points, but it pretty much came clear to me after last session, they really aren't interested in the why's, they got their program and that's it. They are very good at implementing the rules, and keeping you on track, but not so good at why should you do it, their rationales are weak and clicheish, and not very good psychology, that is a disaster for someone like me....I don't need much help with understanding the rules, this is not rocket science....I need to know why should I do it, and all that gets me is "because"....because you are married, because other family members want that, because you have history, because because because...and not a word about how we fit, how connected can we be, how far can we really ever understand each other, lots of things that are important to me....and if I am stubborn (and honest) about those needs, I am not trying, don't care, hurtful....you know what? That just tells me I don't count.<p>sheryl...I know someone who said to her spouse, "I'm sorry I hurt you with this, but I'm not sorry it happened"... I suppose that would qualify under the number 1 (external) remorse. What I'm reading from you is that you HAVE that remorse, but not the internal (I hurt ME) remorse. Is that right?<p>snl...Yes, pretty much, but yet that is taken personally, and makes people angry, but it is only about me, I don't understand how something about me, can make anyone else upset, angry...so then I feel I need to hide this, be dishonest about it, and radical honesty goes out the window...tell me sheryl, why does this make one angry, why should truth and honesty ever make anyone angry? If you say look snl, I don't wish you ill, or hung from the nearest tree, but I don't need to go deep with stuff, it makes me crazy, and I don't think it is necessary, so I won't do that.....I am not going to be angry at you, you have just told me the truth about you, I can choose to keep that in mind when dealing with you....or I can tell you that's no good, you must change, or I will be angry with you, or not like you, etc. etc. it is the latter that makes sense to me.<p>sheryl...Here's the difference between us, snl, like you need *me* to tell you ; as much as I love to write and can certainly go on and on at times, I am at my core a "bottom-liner." One of the main reasons my ex and I broke up (aside from the infidelities) was the complete lack of communication. I would say, "What do you feel like for dinner tonight?" and he would say, "When the sun peaks through the clouds like this, on a hot summer day, my stomach yearns for a barbequed steak." (Not an exact response, but believe me, darned close). There was NO SUCH THING as a bottom line for him.<p>snl...That falls under the category of commincation, somehow dinner must be served, so you learn each others language. But telling him he cannot view eating that way would be hugely disrespectful, and you cannot make it a marital issue that he change this so you won't be irritated...(although you can certainly ask). I cannot be NOT analytical, it is who I am, and thinker has no idea (as apparently neither do many of you) how much it stresses me not to think things through....and why shouldn't I be this way? Just cause it stresses some? Somehow I have managed to live 51 years, function fairly well by most standards, I guess I must not be a total loser....ya know?<p>sheryl...snl, it seems like there is no such thing as a bottom line for you either.<p>snl...Couldn't be more wrong. I just reach the bottom line at a much different rate, and a much different path than others....I am a decision maker, and proactive, and have made many substantial decisons in my life...but just food for thought.....many ws lament they didn't know, and was all just a big mistake.....well there is some truth to that, it is a confusing place....I certainly did not seek it out, or really even understand when I was in an EA, but a point came when I could have stopped, and I knew it, and I chose not to, the bottom line? I wanted to live, more than I wanted to follow the rules that were killing me. I knew the decision could cost me everything I had, and I made sure the ow knew that too, but the alternative was unacceptable, it meant giving up on life, I was not ready to give up. Perhaps that helps you understand why I am not remorseful in that sense, I didn't just blindly stumble about, I looked very very hard at what was happening. I knew I was not predatory, I knew my wife had thrown me away (emotionally) long ago, the only issue was vows, and I decided to push them, there were boundaries (cause we were married) and we kept them, but we pushed them very very hard.....and I was willing to accept the consequences...there is a lot more to it than that, but no one is interested in a foggy ws assessments, and even writing this will just get me more slings and arrows, but it is the truth, and may interest you. <p>sheryl...I'm not asking you to call your OW the devil incarnate, but I am asking you to realize that you BOTH KNEW that what you were doing was wrong, and therefore she is, at the least, damaged, and at the most, purposely dishonest and cruel (as you were, and I was, and my ex-H was, as ALL WS's are). Can you say that? <p>snl...Yes, I can say that, it was wrong by rules I would even agree on, she is damaged, so was I...as well as the spouses etc.... I will not agree was cruel, that implies no external remorse (or even active desire to hurt). I don't think you fully understand sheryl, I knew there was going to be pain and injury, but my assessment was it was necesary and mangaeable, and I haven't changed my mind on that. I don't expect life to be painfree, we all do lots of things we know might hurt, or even are sure will hurt, we do it cause we assess the outcome is worth the price. There is no doubt in my mind that affairs are an integral part of our species msrital paradigm, and in many cases marriage cannot be resolved without behaviour we label an affair, BUT you cannot set out with that in mind...or well, I guess you could, but that is like OD'ing, or shooting someone to cure their heart attack.... an affair is an agressive solution to massive marital dysfunction, but it is the one our species uses.<p>sheryl...Is there any way within you that you can "bottom line it" for me?<p>snl...Yep, a deliberate affair is an unacceptable act of aggression, and one not to be forgiven....making friends and becoming emotionally connected is ill-advised but if it was freindship it is not aggression, and is what humans do, and you need to focus on the why's, and not the affair.