No problem medic, answer me this<p>Have you stopped beating your mother yet?<p>Remember, yes or no are the only allowable responses...wanna play?

Gee thinker,<p>I think it could be Plan C time............run for the hills and never look back.

Wow! This thread came alive since I posted that first reply....Sigh! <p> Such bitterness on both of your sides. SNL you need to let go of all your anger from the past. I think you are quite even with thinker for the years you say she was abusive, disrespectful, etc.<p> Same for you thinker, let go the Affair, let go the OW. Heal yourself with whatever outside help necessary.<p> If the two of you could just let go of the past and try working toward a new future you could heal. Forget all the old crap. Start a new life together.<p> SNL, understand this...thinker was/is a huge asset to you. If this were not true why ask her to work for you after the divorce? I'm sure she works her butt off for the betterment of the company and her husband. She is the mother of your children. She takes care of the family when they are ill, likely including you. There are so many things to love about the woman who is your wife. Why won't you allow yourself to see them?<p> You ask why this or why that. Look at all she has done/is doing to make you a successful man. You fit with thinker because she is willing to put up with your bulls!it. You admit the things you are snl, can you admit that few women would want you or anyone like you for very long? Would you want your sons or daughters to marry someone like you?
Most fathers I know want much more for their children than what they are.<p> I don't know what to say to the two of you. One thing IS certain....KEEP THIS UP AND YOU WILL FIND OUT IF THE GRASS IS GREENER. IF THE BITTERNESS OF THE PAST IS WORTH IT. <p> Sigh...<p> jd

jd....If the two of you could just let go of the past and try working toward a new future you could heal. Forget all the old crap. Start a new life together.<p>snl....Absolutely, but doesn't that imply now you have to choose each other? No consideration of vows, history, kids, fear of being alone, etc...cause that is also part of the past? Shouldn't it be as if you just met for the first time and started dating? If we are saying let go of the issues in the past, but keep the marriage isn't that just manipulation? The issues are the marriage...if you are gonna start over, doesn't that mean divorce, and then date, so there is no "history" interfereing with choosing each other?<p>jd....SNL, understand this...thinker was/is a huge asset to you. If this were not true why ask her to work for you after the divorce? I'm sure she works her butt off for the betterment of the company and her husband. She is the mother of your children. She takes care of the family when they are ill, likely including you. There are so many things to love about the woman who is your wife. Why won't you allow yourself to see them?<p>snl..You bet she is a huge asset, to whoever she is married too, are you suggesting I should essentially stay cause she is the best I can shop for? None of what you said has anything to do with our fit/bonding, there are literally millions of women (and men in reverse) who can fill those roles for each of us, why would I love someone based on well they take care of me? If you come and live with me and do all these things, will I love you? I would (and do) feel awful when I think how crappy my life will be without thinker to do all this stuff, and that I could see staying for those reasons, how unfair to her.<p>jd...You ask why this or why that. Look at all she has done/is doing to make you a successful man. <p>snl...She didn't make me anything, I am a human being who made myself, I do not believe in making others "responsible" for my success or failure, not do I accept any blame, or kudos, for making anyone else successful or not...you see?<p>jd...You fit with thinker because she is willing to put up with your bulls!it. <p>snl...Hmm, that is the nature of fit? You put up with my bs, and I will put up with yours? no thanks.<p>jd....You admit the things you are snl, can you admit that few women would want you or anyone like you for very long? <p>snl...That is a tough one, I do understand I am out on the low part of the bell curve re temperament, that is my genetic lot in life...I can't really say few women would want me, I had no trouble attracting women, more the opposite, probably cause I talk so much and I was always very interested in what women have to say, and how they were feeling....I think women find me safe.... the problem isn't so much that, I can get along with most anyone, the problem is temperament, I stress people with my intensity...don't know if that would drive women off or not, what do you think?<p>jd...Would you want your sons or daughters to marry someone like you?<p>snl...Absolutely. I am a good man, smart, talented, sincere, and committed to truth..not settleing in any aspect of life (remember you asked, so plz no charge of conciet) but I would want them to be sure (as possible) they fit, and marry for the right reasons.

Okay snl, you can't NOT be thoughtful or deep or wordy or... let's just call it... verbose, shall we? [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>There comes a time, and I know you know this, when all the pretty words mean NOTHING and the BOTTOM LINE is ALL that matters. <p>When I had my affair, I changed the rules. I know the rules, as they were, were not good, since my (then)H cheated on me and treated me poorly and sometimes abusively. When I go back and read my journals, I see that I was a miserable person who was "working through" the pain for around five years. I had made significant life changes (like leaving a church that I was fully emeshed into) and my life had become, as the 12 step programs say, unmanageable.<p>After all that, when my (then)H asked me what was wrong (because CLEARLY there was something wrong) I would say, "I don't know"... and I didn't.<p>After the affair, when I didn't think things could get worse, they did.<p>I have spent at LEAST six years in a self-imposed thought-filled, mind-wracking limbo. YOU'RE THERE TOO. Right NOW!!<p>I know you see this as some cosmic growth experience, but the truth of the matter is that all this thinking won't really change a thing. All that's happening snl, is that your wife is getting more bitter by the second, and eventually (and SOON, I fear) she's going to LOSE IT COMPLETELY. She's been under so much stress with you and her father... snl, please show some compassion, and give your wife the BOTTOM LINE. <p>I am different from you, yes, but more like you than I care to admit. I do understand you in some ways... you know that.

For the sake of all BS's out there who have been told by their WS's that they were never loved, PLEASE SNL, tell us WHY you married thinker in the first place. And the age thing won't do..........we were all young once.<p>Think back, you MUST have had heady, sweet love in your heart for this woman, and now, because it suits your argument, she doesn't "fit". What a lot of FOGESE you speak.<p>If I were thinker, I would have given up LONG ago. But she didn't. She loves you beyond all measure, and you reject that? In this world of uncertainty, selfishness and pain?<p>Do not even answer me, i don't care what you write............you are full of it.

so you are just venting on me nina? I am a punching bag? (since you said don't reply, what else is there?)....but ok, know you don't mean any real illwill, but what's the deal, either I am making this all up for some malicious evil depraved reason (and by all means those who think so, give me hell)...or I am just like everyone else, trying to find my way, and when I am abused here how does that help anyone?<p>But this is so curious, I wonder how many of you do just this (abuse, insult, disrespect) your ws when they are trying to find their way, and be honest about it...and then you lament your failed marriage and blame it all on your evil ws. There is absolutely no justification for anyone to respond to me with anger and disrespect.... I am polite to everyone, yet folks regularly abuse me in the "guise" of being helpful, that is so puzzleing. I do understand the displaced anger thingy, and that is ok, I don't mind, and think maybe it is even helpful to others, but it doesn't help me at all. I do appreciate those who disagee with some of my issues, but have gone the distance as sounding boards, and reality checks though.<p>nina...For the sake of all BS's out there who have been told by their WS's that they were never loved, PLEASE SNL, tell us WHY you married thinker in the first place. <p>snl...I have answered that before, in detail, cause that is important. But in short, I do love thinker, I just don't think we can be married. We have never had that intimate bond, and severely stress each other....I personally do not look at it as a blame issue (although many of you try to make it so, including thinker, when I analyze why we don't work). I have every intention and desire to do right by thinker, but that does not mean we have to be married, and make each other lonely. I have noticed many bs are unfortuneate to be married to ws who are abusive, hurtful, and irresponsible....leaveing them with harsh words, uncaring behaviour, and often destitute....I am none of those things. I care about thinker alot, will not let her go without, will not stop parenting, will not push her away emotionally, will meet any need she has as best I can, and if we divorce will do all I can to help her readjust......why does that make me so bad? What more can I do? You just don't do marriage, radical honesty requires you to be honest about your feelings, and that is what I am doing, I cannot see any reason to maintain a marriage on a settled basis, might just as well be friends, their is NO DIFFERENCE. <p>It is not like anyone is going to be put to death, married or not, thinker and I are still the same people, with the same history, with the same kids, nothing is changed, we feel exactly the same way about each other, we just are stressing each other with the expectations of being married.....steve H says there is only one reason, on standard, to be married for, and that is to be happy, if you are not happy married, no reason to be married, and neither thinker or I am happy. All this bickering, pathos, angst, depression etc, arises cause we ARE married, it all goes away if we are not struggling trying to fit each other. Yes there may be other issues, being lonely, but that is much more preferable than this. Why does divorce scare people so much? How is thinkers life any different married to me or not? I am exactly the same person either way, the relationship is essentially the same either way...the only difference is I am not under her nose all the time, making her unhappy cause I don't meet her needs the way she wants me too....and further, according to the MB Bible, she just (if she wants) needs to let someone else meet her needs and she will be in-love and happy, seems like a good deal for her.....an attentive caring ex-spouse who supports her, and available to let someone else meet her needs and be in-love with...remember that is all there is to love according to the harleys....<p>As for why we married, cause we had dated 5 years, could not resolve our relationship issues, and married hoping we could.<p>nina...Think back, you MUST have had heady, sweet love in your heart for this woman, and now, because it suits your argument, she doesn't "fit". What a lot of FOGESE you speak.<p>snl...The in-love with being in-love heady phase did occur in the first 6 months of dating, and I asked her to marry me....she said yes, and retracted 3 days later cause she did not want to leave home (we were 22)...the relationship soured after that, and we broke up a couple times, and argued alot over next few years...I finally decided that I cared enough about her to hope it would work, and that I was obligated to marry her cause I had said I would when we had become physical several years earlier (we were both virgins, and I felt sex = marriage)....if she had said no, we would have parted, but she said yes, and she would try to fix it too (as she had each time we broke up).... and we tried to fix things, counselling, endless talks (I am not an avoider, leastwise not then, finally I became one to keep the peace), etc. etc. but it never worked, and we both remained unhappy for 24 years.<p>nina...If I were thinker, I would have given up LONG ago. But she didn't. She loves you beyond all measure, and you reject that? In this world of uncertainty, selfishness and pain?<p>snl... I feel she needs me, and we are in an unhealthy co-dependentcy, love is not possible IMO under such circumstances (caring is, but not intimate love). I am not rejecting anything, I am setting boundaries I need to keep, and settleing for marriage cause I want to avoid pain, or lose a good helpmate violates everything I believe in, I should be choosing her passionately, not for what she can do for me.<p>nina...Do not even answer me, i don't care what you write............you are full of it.<p>snl...That was not very nice. But ya know, I never say, but often bs here are full of it too, and I just want to tell them if I was your ws I would run away from you too...but I don't. However I do talk to them about how I think relationships work, and I do so politely and honestly, albeit firmly sometimes, and they can do with it as they will. I no longer believe in marriage just for the sake of marriage, I changed that internal paradigm many of us are indocitrinated with...I am now more concerned about emotional health, and how who are intimate with affects that in large measure...I have also come to understand intimacy is impossible if you do not fit fairly well, and that most marriages do not fit, but are contractural, settled, you do me, I do you....and that is ok, if both want it, but it is not how I need to live my life.

Interesting.....
I have read from both of you over the months, though rarely reply.
few comments.....snl, it does appear you are remorseful, though it does not come across as some think it should. It is similar to my h's remorse. My h is not sorry he had the affairs. He is very sorry for hurting me. The whole story is long and complex and I will not get into it on your thread. Remorse comes in various packages and we should be careful not to expect the same response from others.
There is something missing in the marriage and it appears that the two of you will not be able to find it together. You have been with each other long enough to acknowledge this, but there is still a longing to remain. Maybe this is not healthy? Maybe the two of you would be better as dear friends, as caring exes?

cl....snl, it does appear you are remorseful, though it does not come across as some think it should. It is similar to my h's remorse. My h is not sorry he had the affairs. <p>snl....Sorta, and for me it is ONE affair, you said affair(s)...I would probably shoot myself if I ever did anything like this again. But yes it is complicated, cause if you did make friends and care about someone, that is exactly the same stuff you did when you married someone, so how can you be remorseful about that? On the other hand, understanding how this all works now, I would (if somehow did this again) be extremely remorseful internally.<p>cl...He is very sorry for hurting me. The whole story is long and complex and I will not get into it on your thread. Remorse comes in various packages and we should be careful not to expect the same response from others.<p>snl..Where is your story, I too kinda forget, but I have read your stuff. Yes, absolutely, remorse is in part another one of those eye of beholder things...and quite often when I read the stuff here from bs and their expectations/demands for remorse, it tells me they are only focused on themselves, yet call the ws selfish....go figure.<p>cl....There is something missing in the marriage and it appears that the two of you will not be able to find it together. You have been with each other long enough to acknowledge this, but there is still a longing to remain. Maybe this is not healthy? <p>snl...That pretty well sums up my concerns at this point.<p>cl...Maybe the two of you would be better as dear friends, as caring exes?<p>snl...I like to think that is possible, at least on some levels, but we are oil and water in some important psychological ways, and I am not so sure about thinker...one of the things I don't understand about her (and never have) is her ability to project and hold onto anger...whatever we do, if she decides I am dogfood, I am not so sure she would ever think well of me....and that makes me sad. But I know I am an integral part of her emotional needs, and I have no intention (or desire) to cut her off, or not be there for her. As to the longing part, that had confused me for a loing time about people and relationships...I finally came to undersrand humans do not like change, and the end of any relationship no matter how bad is a serious emotional event, and will always have a reluctance to it....the danger is people mistake the reluctance as an indicator they should keep trying, or the relationship shouldn't change, that is what leads to so many false recoveries, and more hurt. The interesting thing is after people go through this, suffer, hurt, feel unsafe, and lost...that it gets better, your world readjusts to the reality, oftentimes the seperated couple forges a much better relationship, cause it is now at the right level of fit, and people do ok, they form other relationships, and life goes on...if they do not hang on to anger, and woe is me, or vindictiveness, and vengeance...this is not really so hard, and I do not understand why people get so angry and hurtful....clearly an intimate relationship should be a safe happy chosen place for 2 people, and if it is not, it shouldn't be forced, yet that is exactly what we do....we command just DO IT, I find this incomprehensible.

HI SNL,
Yes, I have been around quite some time-before the famous mb crash of 99...but dont post much. My story is a bit different than most here, so like your marriage, I dont always 'fit' very well! My h was a serial cheater-some might like the term sex addict, but he does not quite meet the psych qualifications for it. Thus he gets the title 'serial cheater'
I do feel for you and for thinker.
I am not sure that people dont like change, but there is certainly a fear of it. Usually the fear keeps them from truly seeing waht might lie ahead. Often fear keeps us in a little cubby-not exactly nice and cozy, but familar, so there is an element of comfort. And te comfort mya be unhealthy....but we hold it because it is all we know.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by sad_n_lonely:
<strong>quite often when I read the stuff here from bs and their expectations/demands for remorse, it tells me they are only focused on themselves...we are oil and water in some important psychological ways, and I am not so sure about thinker...one of the things I don't understand about her (and never have) is her ability to project and hold onto anger...whatever we do, if she decides I am dogfood, I am not so sure she would ever think well of me....and that makes me sad....I finally came to understand humans do not like change, and the end of any relationship no matter how bad is a serious emotional event, and will always have a reluctance to it.....clearly an intimate relationship should be a safe happy chosen place for 2 people, and if it is not, it shouldn't be forced, yet that is exactly what we do....we command just DO IT, I find this incomprehensible.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Not the first time, but the first time in a long time. I totally agree with SNL on this.<p>I have read this entire thread, from the beginning "rantings" of Thinker to here. I think SNL has been and IS "remorseful" for what he has wrought. Is he "remorseful" for the (probable) end of his M? No, I don't think so. And this has angered his W as well as most everyone else on here. Should he be? Depends on what caused it. Everyone here seems to think it was the A. I think he knows it was NOT. That was just a "symptom" of trouble....many of us must agree that that is what our WS's A adds up to.<p>Thinker, for all her pain, is NOT blameless in this mess. I don't think we see all that goes on in their home. No, I don't want to judge her, or him, for that matter. I certainly don't want anyone coming into my house and judging..."Oh, well, THAT IS WHY your H left YOU!!" The points SNL made above that I quoted lead me to the conclusion that Thinker DOES "project" her feelings/anger/frustration etc. onto him. She IS resistant to the changes that D. will wreak on her life. I DO believe he is a deeply introspective person and it drives her stark, staring BATTY! Do they "fit?" NOT according to THIS yardstick. Is only one of many. We can't know the other ways they DO or DON"T fit. But from reading his assessment of their personalities, it sounds like they truly do NOT "fit." I don't really care about the "fitting" rule he likes to quote. I (still) believe ANY TWO people can be happily M if they want to. If they are willing to learn to meet each other's needs.<p>BUT, I honestly don't think either one of them truly tried to do that, to save this M. That is my indictment of them. SHE wanted "more of the way things used to be before she realized he bailed." HE wanted "A totally new fit" complete with feelings/attitudes/emotions etc. that HE didn't have to work to dredge up. Wasn't gonna work for them. <p>Neither was willing to meet the other half-way. Say what you will, protest till the cows come home, Thinker, SNL, anyone else, this is how I see it. LITTLE WORK was done to "save" this M by the parties involved. Too bad.<p>I'm saddened. I'm sure they are both very nice people in their respective "real" lives. But one more divorce statistic, I fear.<p>It doesn't mean MB doesn't work, SNL, just means that there's more to it than just reading about it and deciding to agree with it or not. It's work. Hard work. DOesn't mean SNL was supposed to "lock step" in place w/RULES you, Jennifer and Steve decided, Thinker. He's not made that way. AGain, I'm sorry. It really IS sad. It's always sad when we witness the end of a M.

Lupo is right in literally EVERYTHING she's said.<p>What's really sad is that these two, thinker and snl, came HERE to MARRIAGE BUILDERS, and DIDN'T use the concepts. Not that I did a good job in my ex-marriage either, mind you. <p>This is what amazes me about this site. We're all here, and with very few exceptions, we come here married and trying to save our marriage. Did these two simply pay lip service to saving the marriage, or what?<p>I bet both think they're trying as hard as they can (right?). I thought I was trying as hard as I could, as did my ex-H. My current H thought he was trying as hard as he could, as did his ex-W. We ALL think we're doing the best we can, yet we couldn't save our marriages. <p>Is this an internal flaw within the system? Human nature? What?

snl....Sorta, and for me it is ONE affair, you said affair(s)...I would probably shoot myself if I ever did anything like this again. But yes it is complicated, cause if you did make friends and care about someone, that is exactly the same stuff you did when you married someone, so how can you be remorseful about that? On the other hand, understanding how this all works now, I would (if somehow did this again) be extremely remorseful internally...<p>Thanks for the clarification SNL...Just backs up what I said, you do not have the kind of remorse that would allow a spouse to forgive you and move on in the marraige. Thus, by not opening your eyes, YOU, SNL are not allowing your marriage to have the chance to make it. <p>CL really hit the nail on the head...<p>Just as I have read in your past post, you say you are sorry that you did hurt people, you say you probably won't do it again, but you indicate it was just one affair, like some how you deserved this one affair, or that is not such a bad thing because you just had one, and you indicate if you start caring for someone just like you did when you got married, that is not so bad also(how can you be remorseful for that?) Then I've read too, where you justify how you guys "explored each others bodies" stating it wasn't lust, you guys were just exploring [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img] ...Sheesh!<p>I don't know any woman who's spouse told them the same thing about their affair, would think that this was taking responsibility for what you did<p>Steve Harley and Jen both know this is not good enough either.<p>SNL, I am not intending this to be cruel, but I have a question, Do you have any close friends? You don't get along with Steve or Jen, you don't get along with most of people on MB, you don't get along with your wife, you argue with everyone...I can't see anyone putting up with your attitude and your way of thinking for very long. Will you die just as your name says "Sad and Lonely" or will you finally see the light some day and see that you just love arguing for the sake of arguing, you love controversy, you don't want things in your life to run smoothly, you want chaos...<p>You say to people "Oh this is my personality, this is just the way I am, my mind just works like this..." That is such baloney. You want your mind to work that way, you want to be different, therefore, you set out to do this...It's your choice to be sad and lonely, you are not unique SNL, you are just a pain in the butt, and you are doing a good job of alienating everyone in your life.<p>You think you and the OW had this great relationship and yet you don't see how she conformed to your personality just to win you...I see this...Why can't you?<p>As soon the OW won you, her little game was over, she tossed you aside, she's moving on and if you think she isn't cheating again, think again, because I met women out there just like her on chats, and I have no doubt she's still playing games, just with other men. <p>I became friends with some of these women until I really got to know them, they went from guy to guy, they would conform to that guys way of thinking and then they would break up with the guy and move on, each time changing their personalities, these women are predators in my opinion. They are out there looking for lonely married men and they know exactly what they are doing. From everything I read your ex G/F fits this profile...<p>Thinker,<p>I'm glad you are taking steps to leave, I hope you move on, I hope you find a man who doesn't have this skewed thinking, you can find happiness thinker, you can find someone who loves you and who doesn't want to argue whether it's raining or drizzling outside...<p>As Jacky says, Thinker run for the hills.<p>Take care,<p>ANNA

Thinker/SNL,
Maybe this is a completely inappropriate response, but at some point the hurting has to stop. Thinker, I've only read about 12 of your posts..I usually stop because I get really tired of hearing the exact same thing about SNL's OW and her 2 marriages and other possible contacts. Reliving that is not serving any positive purpose for you personally or in your relationship.<p>SNL, you and I have posted back and forth a few times and have agreed and disagreed. And your last post to Cali really had me worried about you because blackness and negativity seem to have taken up a permanent residence in your thoughts..this worries me.<p>MB is a great place for support for all of us, whether the marriage survives or not. But one BIG fact that I haven't seen espoused here is that a divorce does NOT make a either person a failure. The only failures are people that don't do the work for personal recovery not matter what the outcome.<p>I'm truly sorry that both of you have had what sounds like an unsatisfactory marriage. Divorce will not solve that...unresolved issues will continue to follow you into any relationship that may be in the future...I've proven that.<p>Divorce is scary..anything you do the first time is..and ultimately is doesn't matter who pursues it..the outcome is the same. However, life does continue afterwards. But, as I've said before, do the personal work to recover not only from the A, but from the marriage.
T

twyla...Maybe this is a completely inappropriate response, but at some point the hurting has to stop.<p>snl...Yes, I think that is true, which is partly why I feel it necessary to review the whole marriage, and not just stop an affair, do MB and live happily ever after, there are very deepseated issues which must be dealt with, otherwise more hurt will come, and I don't want to do this again...get all stirred up and miserable.<p>
tw... And your (snl) last post to Cali really had me worried about you because blackness and negativity seem to have taken up a permanent residence in your thoughts..this worries me.<p>snl...Yikes, I am an optimistic person usually, and bullish on life, guess I am getting worn down trying to resolve this and facing anger at every turn.... be it here, or at home, and the notion that life is over if people do not want to be intimate....I have a hard time coping with relationships either have to be intimate and married, or hate each others guts....why do people have to be married? or their whole life is some big lie, and awful stuff..ya know? I am not sorry we married, and we seem to have 4 good children, and we lived, and got along sorta, I don't want to X her out, we are part of each others lives, and I am ok with that, I just want to stop hurting, and being a source of hurt....and I don't want to change who I am...what I want is to be me. <p>tw...MB is a great place for support for all of us, whether the marriage survives or not. <p>snl...I couldn't agree more, this is a great place, not without flaws, but a great place compared to anything else available.<p>tw....But one BIG fact that I haven't seen espoused here is that a divorce does NOT make a either person a failure. The only failures are people that don't do the work for personal recovery not matter what the outcome.<p>snl...I agree, and have said so here on occasion, but for the record agree again...this is NOT about blame, it is about healing and growth. I personally have learned alot here, both by way of MB principles, and by the sharing of others lives, there is no way one could have this kind of data available in a self-help book etc.<p>tw...I'm truly sorry that both of you have had what sounds like an unsatisfactory marriage. <p>snl....I would describe it as starved marriage, neiter of us have been nurtured very well, not out of maliciousness though, but we are still both extremely malnourished all the same.<p>tw...Divorce will not solve that...unresolved issues will continue to follow you into any relationship that may be in the future...I've proven that.<p>snl...Divorce only does one thing, it returns the focus of your life to you, and you are responsible (without the distraction, and committment to anothers needs) for your own outcome....it is a space, and often times I think it is a very healing space...if done correctly.<p>tw...Divorce is scary..anything you do the first time is..and ultimately is doesn't matter who pursues it..the outcome is the same. However, life does continue afterwards. But, as I've said before, do the personal work to recover not only from the A, but from the marriage.<p>snl..Yep, good advice.<p>Lupo thanks for your comments too, a couple things I will respond to later.

Well, I can see when I start a thread, SNL takes over. This is SNL, a talker. <p>I will bring the OW up again, so if you don't want to hear about her delete this paragraph. Yes, SNL knew what he was getting into. And as far as the OW, she knew exactly where this was leading to. She already had another sexual affair in her 10th year of marriage. She knew exactly where she was going and what she wanted. She wanted a man in bed to love her like she HAS NEVER BEEN LOVED BEFORE. I just heard this on a tape that SNL has of her voicemails. She said those exact words, and some others that are not appropriate for typing. This woman is quite sexual, not at all inhibited, and sees other men as sexual males. The counselors said, she knew exactly what she was doing, but see the way SNL protects her, he states he doesn't see that she mislead her. SNL told me from the very beginning of their relationship, before sex, that she said she would never leave her husband, and she is married to Coy. And SNL knew this when he had his first sex with the OW. But he had sex with her anyway, and therefore it was lust. He lusted when he took part of her clothes off to see her naked body, and I am sure she saw his organ get hard, just as she was wishing and hoping for the same with her. The tapes are graphic in a sense and this concludes to me that this was all intentional on her part. And also, she didn't want to go out to dinner, but to a motel, and SNL agreed to go. He tries to tell me as of today, that he had no intentions of undressing her and having sex with her (Yeah - like I was born yesterday - during the day, for 4-5 hours and leave). This woman also may have made a pass onto a service man in her house. Investigator I had, said there was a charge against her. Anyways, that is for the next investigator to find out. <p>As far as SNL having any friends, he never answered. He doesn't have any. SNL could have friends, but for a reason he is not that sociable. I have friends, but as for the last 5-6 months I wrote e-mails to all my friends and said I need to hold our friendship in hold, cause I need to get this settled before I come back to friends. The reason is, the sexual part, I can't just sit there and say yes it was an EA and nothing else. This is eating me up alive. So SNL writes here, cause he has no one else to talk to. If I could tell all my friends that yes SNL had sex with the other woman, it would help. Therefore, SNL will have to pay a counselor big bucks for a few months so I can get help. But what I spend will be a fraction of what he spent on the affair.<p>As far as working on MB, I did a very good job. Jennifer and Steve commented on my doing a good job, not 100% but close. You can evaluate on how SNL did. Why did Jennifer fire SNL? Why did Steve say this marriage is on the brink of divorce? Why did Steve ask SNL what is the path you are going to do? Since SNL doesn't want to follow MB path. Why didn't SNL leave the house when Jennifer and SNL and I were counseling and Jennifer told SNL to pack his bags now and get out. She told him, do you see how you are hurting Thinker, and the kids? He said yes, but this is my home and I can live here if I want to. He also stated that he didn't see where he left was going to make things better. He told Jennifer that if he leaves he will never come back. That night she told me to go get a lawyer. I wish I had, SNL would of been out of the house very quickly.<p>Yes, I am hurting, and life stinks. I don't want to be here anymore, SNL has the permission from me to leave anytime he wants. Just what he posts here, states the same thing over and over. He states why can't we just be friends? If SNL is waiting for us to be friends before he leaves, he better not hold his breath, or he will end up where my dad is, 6feet under. <p>Just to bring a more happy note to you all. I spent the day with our youngest son at a high school about 30 miles away. Students from all over (high school) compete in music. They get rated from the top place a #1, 2nd place #2, third place #3, and 'I' for incomplete (piece they played too short, did not spend much time practicing piece, etc.) The students instructor recommend these students to compete. If they get placed in #1 they move on next month to higher competition. Our son will be 16 next month, got a #2 on his solo ensemble on his alto sax. He kind of got messed up, and the judge asked him questions about the piece son played, and son was able to answer the questions. (All the pieces to be played are composers like mozart, beethoven, etc.) no jazz, no modern, no pop, no rock, etc. Then our son and 3 other boys, played a quartet on their saxophones. Our son played the baritone sax, a tenor sax was played, and 2 alto saxes were played. The piece was beautifully played, and the judge was very impressed with the piece these boys selected. Judge commented on a couple of sections, that needed improving, but all in all he said well done and they all received a #1. This was enjoyable to hear the pieces, and I walked around to hear other pieces being played. A great time today, listening to work of music to the ears!<p>SNL also states that he loves me (only in a caring way, like his mother or brother). He states that we are not marriage material for each other. He states that we will make each other lonely. SNL states all this, but is here. States, that we don't fit (what ever that means), that he doesn't understand why I get mad. I don't understand why you are here SNL, if you have it all figured out, why are you still here, and been here when you know exactly in your mind what you want? Why don't you be honest with me and the family? Why don't you just leave and start your new life? This is SOOOOOOO UNFAIR to us, you must realize this, you are not a stupid man. Please, I am asking you tonight to give me an answer, before I see the lawyer. Be honest with your family.<p>Things are not really good here at all. I grieve for my dad every day. I stop at his gravesite almost every day, and ask dad to tell God to take me now. I really don't want to be here anymore. I have been asking Dad to give me a sign that he is hearing me, but nothing has been felt or heard yet. Have any of you asked for a sign, and what kind of sign did you get? Maybe I am expecting too much. But I mess my dad dearly, and wish I had my dads shoulder to cry on and just have his hand on my shoulder. My father has never let me down, has never told me I was not wanted, has never said leave, he has always encouraged me to stay, and talk. Dad and I talked a lot together, when my mom wasn't there. Dad and I talked when my mom wasn't there cause dad didn't want mom interfering with our discussions. He told me he would always love me no matter what. He told me the Sunday before he died (Wednesday) that he loved me, and he knew he was dying. He said I was so special, we both loved animals. Sorry gonna go, and too upset right now.<p>[ January 26, 2002: Message edited by: thinker ]</p>

Thinker, I've been waiting for signs from God for so long it's ridiculous. I think God expects us to think for ourselves. I have a hard time with that too sometimes.<p>I think you did try harder to impliment the MB principles than snl. He's tried harder to figure out what went wrong. <p>You both seem pretty adept as pointing out the other's flaws.<p>I don't know why snl doesn't just leave. I really don't. I wish, for your sake, he just would, so you could get on with your life.<p>We sit here on the other side of a computer screen and I'm sure all of us picture what you guys are like. I can't even begin to imagine what life is like in your home, but I'm always reminded of the movie (as I told you before) The War of the Roses. Have you seen that movie? All the way to the end, in near death, he was reaching out for his wife, and her last move was to push his hand away. <p>So sad.

snl,<p>are you as long winded in person as you are written? I don't see how you write as much as you do, it is way too much for me to read, so I have a hard time seeing how you can type it. Plus your agruments always remind me of my STBX<p>However totally not MB but maybe both you and Thinker need to go to Plan B<p>and listen to new beginning she is one of the wise ones

thinker,<p>Vent all you like about the ow, but please refrain from the gorey details you imagine happened between them. Describing the state of snl'd body at that time serves no purpose.<p>Yes, I know a video of it is on your mind constantly, but discussing things like that in detail is inappropriate.

I'm gonna get toasted for this one..but it's coming out anyway.<p>Questions as to whether or not SNL has friends!!!! Good God, what is going on here! Assumptions, disrespectful judgements!!! Is this a LB party?<p>I consider this man my friend...and I am proud to say I have a friend that has always exchanged thoughts equally and respectfully. He has never treated any poster here with anything but respect and honesty. And he's taken a lot of knocks for his views. Never once have I seen him lash back in anger. Do I agree with everything he says? No, that has never been a condition for me to offer or accept friendship. But he deserves respect as much as anyone else here.<p>So yes, in answer to the question...SNL has a friend.
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