Yes SNL, and I will be blunt about my thoughts...<p>I think it's sad because there are times I read things you write and can see where you are coming from and feel a connection with you on some of the things you say. I find I respect the advice you give some people and then I try to find respect for the person you are by reading the way you deal with your own family, with the end result being...losing all respect for you again...<p>I read your excuses for staying in the home and your stubborness for not taking responsibility by neither getting out or finding ways to love her as a wife, your lack of action, your emotional black mail and the munipulating and emotional cohercing, and I end up having no respect for you because it makes you look weak and unattractive...<p>This is what my thoughts are when I read your post regarding your wife and family. [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] <p>ANNA<p>P.S. <p>You tell me I am not a Psychologist and therefore have little right to say what I said...What do you tell a Psyhcologist when they tell you the same thing? You give excuses for everyone's advice that you don't want to take. <p>Why?<p>Because, actually taking responsibility, actually saying, "Yes, perhaps it is hurting my family. I don't want to do what is best for Thinker or my family, I want to help me, *I* want to put me first." is just too much for you to admit or bare....

Anna2000<p>Um, try passive/aggressive and narcissistic.<p>And Thinker is the co-dependent who is acting out victim's rage. (just think how frustrated you would be living with SNL all those years!!)<p>SNL as a professional in the research field of science I can tell you that you are full of crap.<p>What are you reading anyway? TV guide??

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Harlequin99:
<strong>Anna2000<p>Um, try passive/aggressive and narcissistic.<p>And Thinker is the co-dependent who is acting out victim's rage. (just think how frustrated you would be living with SNL all those years!!)<p>SNL as a professional in the research field of science I can tell you that you are full of crap.<p>What are you reading anyway? TV guide??</strong><hr></blockquote><p>Anne,<p>Wow! Even if it may be true, I'm a little surprised it came from you...hehe. [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] <p>I also would like to point out how many people on MB think the WS, the one who isn't in love should be the one to file for divorce...The one wanting to still trying should not take responsibility for these people. Most of these spouses who aren't "in love" anymore, at least do leave the home...which doesn't say much but still...and then SNL doesn't even do this. Thinker has two choices basically, put up with SNL's emotional abuse or file for a divorce and get him to leave. Which is just one more time that SNL get's to be relieved of his responsibility.<p>SNL has said he's waiting for Thinker's okay to leave. However, he put "buts" on his request, "but she has to ask me nicely and say please (so to speak)..." Just so he can easily get out of that one too. Thinker gave him her permission, she even posted on MB and yet he's still there. He just comes up with one excuse after the other..<p>So now, SNL gets what he wants by making Thinker do the dirty work, coercing his wife to be the one to file for a divorce...<p>The day thinker comes on and says, "I have filed.", and I do think that day will happen, and is coming soon, this will be the day I will think SNL sunk to his lowest, and will in my mind become the "biggest, spineless, weakest man" I have ever known. I think he'll go below my stbx on respect, because mine may be a physical abuser but at least he he had the guts to take responsibility to file.<p>ANNA<p>[ January 30, 2002: Message edited by: Anna2000 ]</p>

I guess the thing that bugs me is the contradictions in your reasoning, snl.<p>snl...I am not ready to file, so I won't, but I have no objection to filing. <p>cjack...in other words, you have a HUGE objection to filing at this time. And yet...<p>
snl...I essentially agreed that remaining married would be a poja issue (meaning we both have to want it, default being divorce). <p>cjack...it seems that you reached that default some time ago. From what I've read here, you both agree that the marriage should end. Do you really need to apply poja to who files? I would think that the poja is irrelevant at this point.<p>
snl...I also told thinker as part of my ammends (re the affair part of our issues) she can decide who files, her if she wants, me if she doesn't want....and that I will sign any divorce agreements she thinks reasonable. <p>cjack...so you refuse to decide, refuse to file, and insist that she carry the entire responsibility for the divorce...right? BTW, I think she has stated on this board more or less explicitly that she DOES want you to file...yet you do not. Another total abdication of responsibility on your part, IMHO.<p>
snl...I am trying to understand my circumstances well enough to make such a decision, are you implying I am taking too long? <p>cjack...I am suggesting that you have already made the decision (divorce), yet you refuse to accept responsibility for taking the actions necessary to implement a divorce, thus causing more stress for both of you.<p>snl...It is correct I do not want this marriage, that has been true for some time, even before the affair, I just did not know what to do about it, having been thoroughly indoctrinated in Christian dogma like many of you...<p>cjack...indoctrination in Christian dogma did not stop you from acting upon your feelings for the OW, so why should it stop you from acting upon your feelings regarding your marriage? You seem to want to have it both ways.<p>snl...I consider the particular status of the "paper" (our legal status) as irrelevant to this process, paper does not make you married (or divorced) your heart and mind do. Many married people are not married at all, just have a legal contract.<p>cjack...in that case, why is it so difficult for you to file divorce papers? If one paper (marriage) is irrelevant, then why does the other (divorce decree) seem to carry so much weight with you? Emotional considerations aside, you should have no trouble dissolving a legal contract that means little or nothing to you...no?<p>
snl...The fact is we are not a pairbond, we cohabitate, I can't continue to do that.<p>cjack...so if you "can't" continue, you have a responsibility to YOURSELF to end the marriage, do you not?<p>I think responsibility is one of the key issues, as I see it. You say you don't want the marriage, and haven't for years, yet you seem to yearn for the day that thinker actually gets out of a rut and files. I think you probably dread accepting your part of responsibility for ending the legal or "paper" part of the marriage. You don't want to be the "bad guy" for filing, so you will avoid filing at all costs. If thinker were to file, I suspect a part of you would say "see! She's at fault...SHE filed!!!"<p>That's just my opinion, based upon the limited information at hand, of course.<p>Also, please understand that I'm trying (not always successfully) to help. There are a few parallels to my own situation. I probably never would have filed, but I went along with whatever my X wanted to do (much like you have said you would do), even though I hated the process. Now that I've been divorced for almost a year, I see that it was probably the best thing that could've happened...for BOTH of us. As the Harley's say, some marriages are doomed to end in divorce no matter what. From what I've read here, they have told you that yours is one of them. You don't want to be married anymore, thinker has said she wants a divorce, the best marriage counselors in the world think you should divorce...so what's holding you back?<p>I just find it odd that a guy who shows so much disdain for the institution of marriage is the one who so desperately clings to his own admittedly worthless piece of paper.<p>[ January 30, 2002: Message edited by: cjack ]</p>

OK, I confess, I've been resisting the impulse to jump in here for days, but I'm going to go against my better judgment and say something anyhow. I'll admit up front that I have no business pretending that I know enough about the situation to contribute anything worthwhile, especially since for months now I have automatically skipped over anything written by sad_n_lonely unless I absolutely needed to read it in order to understand someone else's response. (That should not be read as an inherent condemnation of sad_n_lonely or his perspective: my world view is simply too far from that of a determinist for me to see any benefit to discourse with one, and although I do not know whether sad_n_lonely really is a determinist - or a nihilist - I chose not to expend the time and effort required to find out. For the record, I believe that determinism and nihilism are self-consistent and logically defensible positions.)<p>Taking those caveats into account, though, this jumped out at me:<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by sad_n_lonely:
Ya know, many of us "fit" quite well, we are obsessive communicators... we "cope" by talking endlessly, knowing if we just do it enough, we will "eventually" get it right. Ring a bell with anyone?<hr></blockquote><p>Yes, it does. And here's the bell, taken from a glossary of "ego defense mechanisms":<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Intellectualization: The individual deals with emotional conflict or internal or external stressors by the excessive use of abstract thinking or the making of generalizations to control or minimize disturbing feelings.<hr></blockquote><p>Observing and thinking and philosophizing can be powerful tools in the pursuit of understanding and goodness and truth, but they can also be excuses to avoid doing anything.

harl...And Thinker is the co-dependent who is acting out victim's rage. (just think how frustrated you would be living with SNL all those years!!)<p>snl..could you explain this conclusion please?<p>harl...SNL as a professional in the research field of science I can tell you that you are full of crap.<p>snl...What prompted that?<p>harl...What are you reading anyway? TV guide??<p>snl...Sometimes, are you saying one can't learn anything in TV guide? Although to be honest, I cannot recall ever learning anything significant there, is mostly about the entertainment industry. But there is lots of research being published now in popular form, also science writers who will research a feild/topic and present it in readable fromat. Two excellent books of late are Genome by matt ridley, and (name and author escape me, but will edit it when my daughter find it, loaned it to her)

What, do you think I'm so feeble that I'm going to get sucked into a debate with you????<p>So that you can play devil's advocate, and get to primp and build up your ego???<p>I've had my say - and it's an opinion. Which we all have. And as such does not have to be defended with fact...

absolutely gnome, and a key part in understanding a few things about myself a while back (but not in the intellecutalization dept, I think I balance thinking and action pretty well). It puzzles me I am charged with this on occassion, especially since I am doing "stuff"...stuff many of you would give your eyeteeth for in a ws. Are you essentially saying don't try to understand the psychology of human pairing, and just "do" it cause you are married? Just do the work and make the one you have the best you can? Don't dwell on how um.... (hate to say good), you actually relate, or can relate? Why should one be married at all gnonme, if it is just about changing yourself, and working, might just as well be friends. That is part of the problem, I can see no difference being married to thinker, as I can being thinkers exspouse, either way the relationship is exactly the same....so something is not adding up.<p>Now I gotta look up nihilist, and determinist. But if I had to say what lsabel I am, it is easy, I am a dreamer, about 10-15% of our species is, but it is a hard life in many ways, especially relationships.

no problem harl, the last word is yours.

Would some kind soul please tell me what all those who are condemning me mean? I am soooooo lost in that regard, am I just suppose to shut my brain off, or just keep it all to myself? In the meantime I do (as best I can) the stuff, the stuff you all say you want a ws to do...talk, counsel, spend time together, do questionaires, ended affair (6 months ago), read books, try to not LB, apply rules of protection (especially the honesty one).... yet I am still condemned, and quite vehemently by some of you (not all are obnoxious), what the hell am I suppose to be doing that I am NOT doing? If someone says don't be on-line, what the heck does that mean? I can't express myself, pursue the intelectual needs I have (and thinker can't meet, maybe I should just find ow instead?)...I sometimes get the notion (and maybe youre ws does too) that I really don't count, just hand me a script tell me how it is suppose to be, and follow it, and keep my mouth shut, put on a happy face, and say over and over all is well all is well. Keep in mind I spend a lot of time reading, did have some regular tv, etc. etc.... I gave those up (cause I use time for comp)... I regularly make a point of doing things for thinker I know meets needs she has, should I write em all down and post the list her for your approval, to "prove" I actually do stuff. I really don't get it. I can understand the disagreements over love and marriage and bonding and all that...but why the complaints about me? What more can I do?

Well, I can't seem to stay off this thread today. I really need to find a job!<p>SNL,<p>I know this isn't addressed to me but, just look at the following paragraph you wrote below and times it by about a 1000 post and you will get your personality SNL, your personality is "I","I","I"...you no longer have to look any further to think about who you are...it is obvious....your life is all about "you", you don't want to seek to understand others, you want to seek to understand "you", you don't want to seek to understand human nature, you want to seek to understand "you", you don't want to seek to find what "human pairing" is, you want to seek to find out what "you" are all about...The world revolves around "SNL" in SNL's mind. How can other's make SNL happy, his wife, his family, SNL needs to be the center...Your world is easy and simple SNL, just you are in it, you alone...problem solved.<p>ANNA<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by sad_n_lonely:
<strong>absolutely gnome, and a key part in understanding a few things about myself a while back (but not in the intellecutalization dept, I think I balance thinking and action pretty well). It puzzles me I am charged with this on occassion, especially since I am doing "stuff"...stuff many of you would give your eyeteeth for in a ws. Are you essentially saying don't try to understand the psychology of human pairing, and just "do" it cause you are married? Just do the work and make the one you have the best you can? Don't dwell on how um.... (hate to say good), you actually relate, or can relate? Why should one be married at all gnonme, if it is just about changing yourself, and working, might just as well be friends. That is part of the problem, I can see no difference being married to thinker, as I can being thinkers exspouse, either way the relationship is exactly the same....so something is not adding up.<p>Now I gotta look up nihilist, and determinist. But if I had to say what lsabel I am, it is easy, I am a dreamer, about 10-15% of our species is, but it is a hard life in many ways, especially relationships.</strong><hr></blockquote>

So it's the poor me routine???<p>Geez, can't you think of something original? [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Oh, wait, it was the poor misunderstood me routine. I'm sorry, I didn't read it closely enough.<p>See abusers will first deny, defend, blame and discount, then when that fails, they just don't understand. (Wahhhh) [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] <p>And they never can leave well enough alone - that's why there is never closure on anything. <p>SNL - you should be ashamed that you are so predictable, because I'll just bet you are the kind of guy that believes he is spontaneous and unpredictable.<p>[ January 30, 2002: Message edited by: Harlequin99 ]</p>

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by sad_n_lonely:
<strong>Would some kind soul please tell me what all those who are condemning me mean? I am soooooo lost in that regard, am I just suppose to shut my brain off, or just keep it all to myself? In the meantime I do (as best I can) the stuff, the stuff you all say you want a ws to do...talk, counsel, spend time together, do questionaires, ended affair (6 months ago), read books, try to not LB, apply rules of protection (especially the honesty one).... yet I am still condemned, and quite vehemently by some of you (not all are obnoxious), what the hell am I suppose to be doing that I am NOT doing? If someone says don't be on-line, what the heck does that mean? I can't express myself, pursue the intelectual needs I have (and thinker can't meet, maybe I should just find ow instead?)...I sometimes get the notion (and maybe youre ws does too) that I really don't count, just hand me a script tell me how it is suppose to be, and follow it, and keep my mouth shut, put on a happy face, and say over and over all is well all is well. Keep in mind I spend a lot of time reading, did have some regular tv, etc. etc.... I gave those up (cause I use time for comp)... I regularly make a point of doing things for thinker I know meets needs she has, should I write em all down and post the list her for your approval, to "prove" I actually do stuff. I really don't get it. I can understand the disagreements over love and marriage and bonding and all that...but why the complaints about me? What more can I do?</strong><hr></blockquote><p>OHMYGOSH!!!!!<p>AND THEY SAY THINKER ACTS LIKE A VICTIM!!!!<p>HOLY COW! NOW I'VE HEARD IT ALL!!!!<p>
P.S.<p>All of you out there who has BS's...who does this remind you of...I for one am not going to buy into this victim routine. <p>This reminds me of almost every wayward spouse on here...trying to be the victim...<p>[ January 30, 2002: Message edited by: Anna2000 ]<p>[ January 30, 2002: Message edited by: Anna2000 ]</p>

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Anna2000:
<strong><p>
I know this isn't addressed to me but, just look at the following paragraph you wrote below and times it by about a 1000 post and you will get your personality SNL, your personality is "I","I","I"...you no longer have to look any further to think about who you are...it is obvious....your life is all about "you", you
</strong><hr></blockquote><p> I hate to sound as if I'm a turn coat in the BS parade(I am one too) but aren't all of our lives about us? I mean, we all basically do what we want, no matter what that motivation may be. We may choose to be the sacrifical lamb in a relationship but again that is a choice that is motivated by what we want.
Anna, these is nothing inherently wrong with being selfish as long as you are not being selfish to the detriment of other people.
SnL is right, I would have given my eye teeth for my WS to do half the thinking SnL has instead of dumping our marriage with very little thought.
I think there is a lot of projection here, I feel anger at him myself which is a by-product of my betrayl and divorce. <p> Ah, not even sure why I'm bothering, I'm always ignored in these threads anyway. But I just feel that SnL has a point when he says he feels as if he is being asked to ignore his own needs and follow the script handed to him. Perhaps he should be moving a bit faster but we shouldn't admonish him for wanting to seek happiness in a relationship.

I flipped through this book at a Borders bookstore...<p>interesting read...<p>http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/t...reader/2/104-3552155-1967108#reader-link<p>Cali

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Cali:
<strong>I flipped through this book at a Borders bookstore...<p>interesting read...<p>http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/t...reader/2/104-3552155-1967108#reader-link<p>Cali</strong><hr></blockquote><p>Cali,<p>Wow! Thanks! The 1st chapter alone was so interesting...<p>SNL??? What do you think?<p>ANNA<p>ANNA

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by sad_n_lonely:
[QB]Would some kind soul please tell me what all those who are condemning me mean? I am soooooo lost in that regard, am I just suppose to shut my brain off, or just keep it all to myself? In the meantime I do (as best I can) the stuff, the stuff you all say you want a ws to do...talk, counsel, spend time together, do questionaires, ended affair (6 months ago), read books, try to not LB, apply rules of protection (especially the honesty one).... yet I am still condemned, and quite vehemently by some of you (not all are obnoxious), what the hell am I suppose to be doing that I am NOT doing? QB]<hr></blockquote><p>*sigh*<p>I think that a lot of the anger directed towards you comes from the fact that the BS's here (most of us are) still have a lot of pent-up anger that they were never able to express towards their own WS's, so they throw it at you. That is wrong, and I've tried not to do it too much myself. <p>
The thing that frustrates me is that you are doing all of the "things you're supposed to do," like avoiding LB's, talking, etc. But at the same time, you come here and write at length about how none of this works, you don't want to continue, and how little regard you have for marriage as an institution. In one post, you'll list off all the efforts you are making to save your marriage to thinker, while in another you'll insist that there is no hope for you and there never has been! On the one hand, you say you don't believe in marriage, but on the other, you refuse to divorce...do you see how this might seem odd?<p>For my part, I only come here to try and help other people get through a difficult time. If my limited experience can help save a marriage or speed along the end of a doomed one, I'll gladly offer advice based upon what I know.<p>I can't figure you out, snl. When someone tells you that you should stay married out of duty, you'll give a lengthy reply about how terribly wrong it is to do so, and how no one should feel obligated to remain in a marriage with someone that doesn't "fit"...then you turn around and state that you're staying in the marriage out of a sense of duty and obligation to thinker...!<p>You want to know what to do...right? I say pick a path and stick to it. As I see things, you've been going through the motions of trying to save your marriage while at the same time doing everything in your power to destroy it. You've said over and over again that you don't believe in the "save the marriage at all cost" paradigm. You've said over and over again that you no longer want to be married to thinker. The Harley's have advised you to end the marriage, and I'll have to agree, given what I've seen here. STOP trying to save the marriage. RE-DIRECT all of your energy and resources into ending it as quickly and painlessly as possible. There are plenty of people here who have been through the process and are more than willing to help in any way they can.<p>But YOU MUST ACT. No more "buts," no more excuses. To put it bluntly: sh*t or get off the pot.

Wow, great find Cali! i gotta read that one!<p>Both SnL and thinker have issues and anger that they are holding onto and don't want to let go. . . these issues have defined their relationship and themselves to a certain extent for their entire marriage. . . . to let those issues go are like a long term smoker giving up tobacco and becoming athletic. . . the energy and dedication required are not the norm.<p>I would also like to say that I have a friend, whom i worked with for quite a while, and he wins every argument by arguing long enough to get the other person frustrated because he knows how to point-counterpoint so well, because he has practiced it so long, and once the other person is frustrated, they usually give up before my friend does.<p>its a mature form of ODD. . . . . subtle, yet very effective, because most people who realize that they can only control themselves, finally leave the argumentative person alone on these issues because the realization finally dawns on them that no matter if the reason or logic is airtight, the defendant can continue to defend because there is no tiebreaker, noone has any leverage to say, right or wrong, and therefore there is no decision, just more discussion and intellectualization. . . <p>I lived with someone similar, not quite the same, who would dissect the discussion into some one point, and then claim she was right, at some outlier example, which would validate her view that the WHOLE discussion was right on her view point. The problem is these people cannot get to the conceptual level, because they can only be right on the miniscule, minutae level. . . if they don't let the discussion get to the conceptual level, above the individual incident, then they don'thave to face reality or themselves, they are focused away from the solution. . . . therefore they are part of the problem . . . .<p>The question is: what is the goal? and do each want to be right? or be happy? to be right may not be happy in the present, but to be right on the goal and work towards that can produce happiness . . .<p>good luck to everyone here. . . . especially to thinker and SnL who both need alot of help. . .<p>wiftty<p>[ January 30, 2002: Message edited by: WhenIfindthetime ]</p>

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Nduli2:
I would have given my eye teeth for my WS to do half the thinking SnL has instead of dumping our marriage with very little thought.<hr></blockquote><p>I, for one, agree withNduli2 regarding the above quote. I would have given anything to have my H at least try, he didn't do anything to try. When he did attend counseling he stated unequivocally he was only there to help ME get thru it, he WAS NOT working on the marriage and WOULD NOT even consider the thought.<p>At least SnL has made it a consideration and had made some efforts in that regard. <p>Jo

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by sad_n_lonely:Are you essentially saying don't try to understand the psychology of human pairing, and just "do" it cause you are married? Just do the work and make the one you have the best you can? Don't dwell on how um.... (hate to say good), you actually relate, or can relate?<hr></blockquote><p>How do you know how effectively you can relate? Hmm?<p>I believe there is considerable value in trying to understand human psychology in general, and your own and your spouse's psychology in particular. But when you are playing with your mental models, that's all you are doing. Playing with models. You will never know what is truly possible until you have thrown yourself wholeheartedly into infinitely complex and changeable reality.<p>So I am indeed saying "do the work and make the one you have the best you can". I don't believe in soulmates. Every marriage - every relationship - takes work, and in many cases the greater the work required, the greater the rewards.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Why should one be married at all gnonme, if it is just about changing yourself, and working, might just as well be friends. That is part of the problem, I can see no difference being married to thinker, as I can being thinkers exspouse, either way the relationship is exactly the same....so something is not adding up.<hr></blockquote><p>I can't answer that question for you, For me, what's unique about marriage is the commitment. There would be no point to marriage vows if keeping them were always going to be easy. As David Schnarch puts it, marriage is a crucible in which "the natural processes of committed relationships...help people grow to the point they are truly capable of loving". Beyond that, for me, marriage is a sacramental demonstration of Christ's love for the church - of his love for me.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Would some kind soul please tell me what all those who are condemning me mean? I am soooooo lost in that regard, am I just suppose to shut my brain off, or just keep it all to myself? ...If someone says don't be on-line, what the heck does that mean? I can't express myself, pursue the intelectual needs I have (and thinker can't meet, maybe I should just find ow instead?)<hr></blockquote><p>NO, don't keep it all to yourself. I don't know whether this is the best place for you to spill everything, though. Have you tried finding a friend, or friends, whose advice you can respect? Face-to-face discussions, e-mail correspondence, something like that?<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>In the meantime I do (as best I can) the stuff, the stuff you all say you want a ws to do...talk, counsel, spend time together, do questionaires, ended affair (6 months ago), read books, try to not LB, apply rules of protection (especially the honesty one).... yet I am still condemned, and quite vehemently by some of you (not all are obnoxious), what the hell am I suppose to be doing that I am NOT doing?<hr></blockquote><p>Sometimes it's not what one does so much as the way one does it. Honesty, for instance, is an extremely adaptable justification for cruelty.<p>What's your motivation for the things you do, SnL? I can't tell you what it is, because I don't know. So, I'm asking you to think about that question very carefully.<p>Some people go through the motions, doing everything they are "supposed" to do by the letter, but finding subtle ways to sabotage their "efforts", just so that they can say "See? I did what I was supposed to do, but alas, nothing works." This approach can feed a martyr complex, or it can be a self-righteous and passive-aggressive method of punishment.<p>You want an example? How about the problem of gossip in the church. It's easy enough to get around: just say "We need to pray for..." instead of "Did you hear about...".<p>These are just things to think about, SnL; I make no accusations here. I have not forgotten that an attempt to connect can be sabotaged at either end...