SNL you didn't treat me like a wife, you treated me like one of the older kids. I was not treated special, taken out and shown your love for me. When we got married, SNL wanted to live at his moms house. Did he tell you that? I said no, that is no way to start a marriage. I was working and he was going to school. It would of been his mom and SNL and I and her animals. <p>Like when we moved back to Michigan, SNL told me we would live with his mom for about 3 - 6 months and then find somewhere to live. He told me later, that he didn't mean it at all. He never had intentions of leaving his moms, until we built a house. I asked him why wasn't he honest, he said he didn't want to hurt me. The lie hurts worse than anything. He promised our one daughter to build a treehouse. We had bought all the materials and started, but never finished. Our daughter still brings this up. SNL promises but falls back on his promise. SNL was not honest with me, and still is not honest. I don't trust this man, I find him to be into himself most of the time, and I find him to be not loving towards me. <p>As of last night, SNL said lets work on paperwork first thing tomorrow morning. Well, as you can all see, he has spent valuable time posting, and I have been out shoveling snow, working on getting chili made, and did 2 loads of laundry. I made his breakfast, which I do feel totally like a doormat. I didn't eat any, and he asked, but you know, he knows how to make breakfast, and I said why don't you make it? He came back with please! I told him all you want me for is to cook your meals, do your paperwork, do the bills, do the finances, do the housecleaning, and do the laundry. He said, I like for you to do all that. I was serious in my statement, and I don't feel he is being serious, or true to heart. <p>As you stated, why don't you go for a separation SNL? Why don't we separate, and you find your love of your life? I don't match you psychologically and sexually, and phylosophize with you like your OW, which you just posted (my OW) you still call her your OW, go to her. You want her, and I gave you permission to leave. Start being honest with me and the family and get out!!!!!

Am I understanding something right? Thinker - you did follow your husband for a time, and live with your in-laws right?<p>So if this is the case, SNL, why are you holding it against her that she wouldn't live and raise your children in the abusive, alcoholic home of your father? She tried it. Didn't like it. Didn't want that life for her children. She gave it a chance, if I'm reading things right.

*FEAR OF DEPENDENCY - Unsure of his autonomy & afraid of being alone, he fights his dependency needs - usually by trying to control you. <p>
*FEAR OF INTIMACY - Guarded & often mistrusful, he is reluctant to show his emotional fragility. He's often out of touch with his feelings, reflexively denying feelings he thinks will "trap" or reveal him, like love. He picks fights to create distance.<p>
*FEAR OF COMPETITION - Feeling inadequate, he is unable to compete with other men in work and love. He may operate either as a self-sabotaging wimp with a pattern of failure, or he'll be the tyrant, setting himself up as unassailable and perfect, needing to eliminate any threat to his power.<p>
*OBSTRUCTIONISM - Just tell a p/a man what you want, no matter how small, and he may promise to get it for you. But he won't say when, and he"ll do it deliberately slowly just to frustrate you. Maybe he won't comply at all. He blocks any real progress he sees to your getting your way.<p>
*FOSTERING CHAOS - The p/a man prefers to leave the puzzle incomplete, the job undone.<p>
*FEELING VICTIMIZED - The p/a man protests that others unfairly accuse him rather than owning up to his own misdeeds. To remain above reporach, he sets himself up as the apparently hapless, innocent victim of your excessive demands and tirades.<p>
*MAKING EXCUSES & LYING - The p/a man reaches as far as he can to fabricate excuses for not fulfilling promises. As a way of withholding information, affirmation or love - to have power over you - the p/a man may choose to make up a story rather than give you a straight answer.<p>
*PROCRASTINATION - The p/a man has an odd sense of time - he believes that deadlines don't exist for him.<p>
*CHRONIC LATENESS & FORGETFULNESS - One of the most infuriating & inconsiderate of all p/a traits is his inability to arrive on time. By keeping you waiting, he sets the ground rules of the relationship. And his selective forgetting - used only when he wants to avoid an obligation.<p>
*AMBIGUITY - He is master of mixed messages and sitting on fences. When he tells you something, you may still walk away wondering if he actually said yes or no.<p>
*SULKING - Feeling put upon when he is unable to live up to his promises or obligations, the p/a man retreats from pressures around him and sulks, pouts and withdraws.<p>
A passive-aggressive man won't have every single one of these traits, but he'll have many of them. He may have other traits as well, which are not passive-aggressive.

kayla, I know it is hard trying to follow stuff, she did not live with my father, we were only there a short time while we got settled, no way I would have lived there (that we agreed on). Anyways I am not going to debate any of this with thinker, or anyone else, it is over, done, ancient history, I only brought it up cause you all seem to think I just have concerns out of thin air.

Thinker and SNL,<p>After 27 years of marriage, being young and growing up together...You guys will have lots of issues. The bible says "Love never keeps score." This is important in every marriage. God is awesome in wisdom, he knows if you keep score no one will win!<p>It is sad that Thinker has no choice but to file for divorce now.<p>I think you guys are finally starting to make post and talking about the true issues of your marriage, old hurts and wrongs you both felt. I wish these post would have started months ago, but they are starting now, and I hope you keep them up.<p>SNL, I think you just being stubborn, I think you need to let go of the past and concentrate on your wife for while. Show her how much you really truly want to try. Look into Thinker's heart and soul and find out what it takes to make "her" happy.<p>Then when he does this...Ditto for thinker...Let go of the wounds of this OW, open your heart to SNL, find out what he wants from you and fulfill his needs. Start over and erase the score sheet and don't take score anymore.<p>ANNA

I wanted to erase the scorepad and start over. This was stated a long time ago, but SNL said he can't and won't. You don't realize how he brings the past up so often. Talk about someone holding grudges. <p>We lived with his dad and stepmom for a short period of time. We lived with his mom for 4 years, which should of been 3-4 months. We came with SNL and I and 4 children, the youngest just starting to potty train. His mother refused to let me use the downstairs bathroom for the little guy. She told me she wants a bathroom of her own without any dirtiness. I see the pattern now, she complains about everything. She didn't want our germs in her place of cleaniness. Even to give the little ones a bath, I had to use the shower upstairs, where 2 bedrooms were, the 3 older children slept in twin beds in one room, and SNL and I slept in our bed in another room and we made room for the youngest to sleep on the floor in an alcove. It was quite comfy with a crib mattress and all. Yes, I came wanting to be friends with his mother. I even brought her rugs that I picked up at a garage sale to use in the kitchen that would match her decor. She told me what she wanted. I found exactly what she wanted and she still uses them today. His mother and I went through a falling out. I was at fault, and she was at fault. She is a woman who has lived most of her later years by herself and had only to answer to herself. Having all 6 of us move in was stressful and upset her routine. <p>Yes, SNL finally is off the board and asks me are you ready to do paperwork. I asked him about 2 hours ago, are you ready, and he said I just have to finish this post, be done in a few minutes. Well, 2 hours later, and still not done, finishing up. I find his posting irresponsible, especially when he said lets work on the paperwork first thing in the morning. Truthfully, I don't feel like working on the paperwork, told him so, and he gets angry and upset. You could tell by his body language, and tone of voice. He comes back with now you are going to punish me. The only way that he would of been happy is to have me say, yes dear, lets work now, that you are ready. And if things don't go his way, he gets mad. (p/a man ?). I haven't been sitting around on my butt, I have been doing things and shoveling and laundry, and etc. He says this is the way he copes, maybe, but there are responsibilities to be done. All for now, going to try to organize linen closet.

Thinker,<p>I understand your frustration, as I have been through the same thing. However, you can't make him to what is his responsibilities...<p>He knows he has do do paper work. Do other things and let it go. If it doesn't get done it's not because it's your fault, it will be his fault. The more you push him, the more he won't do it.<p>Learning to set your boundaries, learning to know what you can and can't control is key to you becoming happy. <p>Just like breakfast this morning, you are starting to resent making him breakfast, so tell him you will take turns in making breakfast, every other day you will make it and every other day he can make it. If he doesn't do his days, then stop doing yours, just make breakfast for you only. <p>Same thing with everything else, if SNL is not pulling his load, resentment will build with you. You can't make him do things, but you can stop doing the things that make you feel like a doormat.<p>Take care,<p>ANNA<p>[ January 31, 2002: Message edited by: Anna2000 ]</p>

I just would like to have SNL make breakfast once in a while. I am not asking for every other day, but to sit on the boards and type is frustrating to me, especially when he said he would like to start paper work first thing in the morning. For him to make breakfast once in awhile would be a great deposit of love in my lovebank. Like I do for his breakfast, but this morning I was upset, cause he buttered me up and saying please, and I did ask him to make breakfast this morning, but instead he sat at the computer and typed. Yes, he did answer the phone for business calls, and did some other things, but this frustrates me that we didn't accomplish bills and paperwork. I feel guilty when the bills aren't paid on time, and paperwork is not getting done. <p>SNL just got home from doing some emergency service calls. He works hard, and does well, he also spends too many hours posting. He feels this is his opportunity to vent and find help. But, how long does it take, he's been doing this for 9 months. And 6 months after OW quit talking to SNL. I don't know what to do, but just take care of myself. I am trying to get things in order here. Try to organize everything and put in containers, that way it will be easier to divide things up if need to. <p>SNL needs medication, just as I did. I finally gave in, when the herbs I was taking didn't seem to help. Why don't you SNL find extra help in medication for a short time?<p>SNL did give me some good advice on decorating. I am going to accept this challenge in the bedroom. I have given up on decorating, cause there is no desire to achieve a decor in this home. There is no desire for anything, but to try and live and be good to the kids. But maybe this will get me going on something, instead of cleaning, and working all the time. SNL finds time to sit and type, and I will find something to give me an outlet. I thought we were suppose to do things together, but SNL had no desire to do anything with me this morning, he was selfish and did what he wanted to do. So I guess I will follow the same path.<p>Anyways, I am not in a good mood, just kind of awake and wondering why am I alive. I know the kids are my main reason, but they have their own lives as they leave and endure their own path. I no longer have a father to which I enjoyed talking to. I no longer have a father that will tell me that I am a good woman. I don't have a father that was there when the walls felt like they were crushing me. I took care of the only man who didn't disown me, call me bad names, didn't betray me, hit me, or tell me he doesn't love me but loves a stranger. I feel alone, and I need to find something exciting to do. SNL will be galavanting in the west, finding the in-love, his sexual dream, so he will be busy doing his thing. I will try to have a stable home for the kids to visit once in awhile. Hopefully, I will find a decent job, and make ends meet. I want so much to be a grandmother, and spend quality time with my grandkids. Even if the grandkids don't come for awhile, I want to be there for the kids, and enjoy their homes, and family of animals. Since I love animals, and wish I had pursued the job of being a technician vet. Too late for that now, disability of arm would not allow me to pursue this position, wouldn't be able to life animals, and hold strong animals down. <p>As you all know, SNL posts everyday about why stay married to thinker? Why should he consider vows? You know, it is hard to read his posts almost every day that he hates me? This is so hard to do and yet he is the man I love! But you know, he has been given the prime opportunity to leave, and I wish he would go on his own will. I hate to have him kicked out of the house, with papers by a lawyer, why don't you leave SNL before I get the lawyer? Why don't you do the honorable, strong man thing and move on out? It is obvious to me and everyone here that you are done, don't want this marriage, and just want to get things organized so it will be easier to leave each other! You don't want to do things with me, just pretend, like you stated in your posts, I am not enthusiastic and feel no bonding with thinker, never will feel the in-love with thinker. You have all the answers, but you won't leave. I will tell all of you, that I am not a terrible person, and telling SNL to get out of the house with papers, is going to hurt me more than you all know. This is why I am having a difficult time going to the lawyer. So there, I told you guys why I am having a terrible time going to the lawyer. Things like this disturb me so much. But I will go this coming week, cause SNL is done. Why can't SNL do the right thing, and leave on his own? He hates me being here, and I feel he actually would like me out of the house, so he can have the kids to himself, and go back to as he stated in his post yesterday (my OW) go to his OW and make a life happy, and desirable, in-love, one-flesh, etc. The OW did all this for him and he states he loves the OW and not thinker and thinker does nothing for his emotional love. Face the facts, SNL the OW is your love and only love. Thinker is nothing but an organizer for you, a doormat, a safe sex person, a person to get appts. done, get cars fixed, get paperwork done, and pay the bills, and etc. But thinker is not the woman you want in your bed everynight. SNL I have asked you to kiss me every morning and every night. You don't, but I know you didn't have any problem giving your OW many kisses everytime you were with her, you even stated that to me. And the time I caught you outside our bedroom window talking to your OW on the phone when we were suppose to leave in 1 minute to retrouvaille, I heard you give the OW 5 hugs, with great emphasis on your part, 5 big kisses, with super sounds, and say to her I love you Debi (5 times). And if I had a video, during your sexual time, you kissyfaced her all over. Our intimate time, is dry. Good night SNL, sometimes I wonder how you can sleep without guilt. I guess men are made different then woman. Also, if you have time, I would like to talk to you SNL tonight briefly, about a plan I have.<p>Well, goodnight everyone, hope you all have wonderful dreams, mine have been pretty awful for a long time. Basically about the OW and her manipulation with me (thinker) and SNL, and the sex they had and I catching them in the sexual act and kicking the OW big fat a*s. I also, have stressful dreams of the loss of my father, and the pain he suffered the last 3 days of his life, I am on a guilt trip, cause 3 days before he died, he and I had a wonderful talk about life, and he asked me to promise him that he will suffer no pain. I failed this, cause the last 3 days of his life was terrible, he suffered like no human should. I lied to him, and I feel so bad about this dad, I love you dad, please forgive me! But still praying for a wonderful dream sometime soon. Something happy, and looking forward to the next nights sleep. I hate to go to sleep now, am tired most of the time, but lay in bed wishing I was dead.<p>[ January 31, 2002: Message edited by: thinker ]</p>

Hello thinker,
Why not try the detachment approach?
You are getting more and more frustrated that snl is not doing what you would like. It seems taht you share some of your expectations, but the response is not what/when/how you would like it?
Confusing situation that must be nerve-racking for you.
Detach and take care of thinker!
You can plan a and detach at the same time.
(((((hugs))))) cl

Thinker,<p>You are making some of the same mistakes I made...
You are allowing yourself to become a victim, I did this same thing.<p>For instance, you want SNL to make breakfast every now and then but he doesn't, you still make him breakfast even though you are not getting this reciprocated, even if you want it every now and then. SNL, will continue allowing you to make yourself a victim as long as you continue waiting on him hand and foot. So until he comes up with something like, every other weekend or every weekend he'll make breakfast, then *you* need to stop making yourself a victim, and stop cooking him breakfast, even if you don't mind, because you are getting resentful he doesn't every now and then...This will be the only way he'll start helping you, THE ONLY WAY! This is what the Harley's recommend don't do anything until a POJA is made. IMO that means don't cook breakfast for him until a POJA is established...<p>You're upset because he talked you into this by sweet-talking you. Be upset with yourself for not being strong enough to say no, don't be upset with him. I understand afterwards he tale care of the bills with you as he said, but one virtually had nothing to do with the other, there wasn?t an agreement of you do the breakfast and then I promise to do the bills. Sure he's the one that mentioned them last night, but you can not force him to do it.<p>You say you feel guilty when the paperwork and the bills are paid. SNL has nothing to do with your feelings of guilt, he only has responsibility to do his job. This is your choice to feel guilty, this was out of your control, so don't feel guilty. If the electricity or phone gets shut off a couple of times, SNL will get his crap together, just don't let his actions affect your mood.<p>
If you allow his inactions to cause you stress, this is your choice.<p>In Alanon we were taught to not try to control what we can't. <p>You can control your responses, and your responsibilities. You can not control his. <p>
Thinker, if SNL needs medication you can not force him to take it if he doesn?t want to. This again is trying to control things you can?t. If he doesn?t take it and it cause him to lose his family that was his choice. <p>You are doing good by learning to take care of you Thinker. You just need to let go of what you can't control.<p>Thinker, I am going to be blunt with you, I know you have gone through alot lately, but you need to stop feeling so sorry for yourself that you don?t want to live. You need to stop thinking about things such as
you only exist for the children and so forth, this is just you feeling sorry for yourself. If you continue to feel sorry for yourself, typically you can expect more and more things to go wrong. So stop it. <p>You need to change your attitude here. You have a lot to live for. You are a good mom, a good wife, a good person and you deserve to be happy, but only you can do that. You do not need your father telling you this, you don?t need thinker telling you this, you only need you to tell you this. When you can love yourself then you will open your heart for others to love you.<p>Finally, you act like you have no choice but to be the one that moves out. Why is that? SNL had the affair, SNL doesn't want to *truly* try to make the marriage work. You don't have to move out, get the lawyer involved, he'll probably have to move out...<p>I hope you take my advice and stop making yourself a victim. I feel great since I stopped. Take care,<p>ANNA

gee wilikers, I have made my own breakfast for 90% of the last 24 years, it was her idea to do it last few months, and now I get chastised somehow, you all wonder why your ws are gunshy about you doing stuff? I would just as soon have nothing done for me if it comes with strings attached...much less verbal abuse over it....ya know?

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by sad_n_lonely:
<strong>gee wilikers, I have made my own breakfast for 90% of the last 24 years, it was her idea to do it last few months, and now I get chastised somehow, you all wonder why your ws are gunshy about you doing stuff? I would just as soon have nothing done for me if it comes with strings attached...much less verbal abuse over it....ya know?</strong><hr></blockquote><p>Who is verbally abusing you SNL?<p>ANNA

SNL...just curious: Why haven't you responded to my posts? <p>I'd just like a simple answer: If the paper means nothing, the why can't you let your paper marriage go?<p>You divorced thinker a long time ago, at least emotionally...why is a simple legal process so hard?

we are having alot of problems here with an ice storm (detroit area), power just came back on for now, etc. etc. will get back to ya all later. For the record thinker and I have not been fighting much the last few days, so don't worry about us too much, we are just dealing with life like the rest of you.

Um...SnL, are you in denial, or are you "just" making a disrespectful judgement? You are at a pivotal crisis point in your life, and you don't seem to be aware of that.

Things are not good here. SNL, thinker is not criticizing you, just stating the facts, that thinker likes making breakfast for you, but would like in return once in awhile breakfast made for her. With not making the effort to make breakfast this shows thinker that you don't care about her. That you want breakfast for yourself and no time spent with thinker while eating breakfast. Just sit in front of the computer with your breakfast. We don't have time together when we eat most of our meals. SNL sits in front of the computer, and thinker eats by herself or with one of the kids. <p>Anna2000 - how do you detach yourself from someone who you spent time with this long? I would like to know and how to go about it? Yes, I feel this is the only way for a resolution. It is sad, but that is what SNL wants anyway. He doesn't want this marriage, and he wants his (stated by SNL 'my OW') OW in his life. I can't understand why if this is just a paper marriage he doesn't just burn the damn paper and go to his OW? Since the paper means nothing, thinker means nothing, vows mean nothing, marriage means nothing, what is holding you here SNL? There is nothing here holding you here? Why don't you do the honorable thing and leave? Why are you making me serve you papers to get out of the house? Why are you putting this extra stress and guilt on me? Am I here for the one purpose to get your life organized, and then you will feel comfortable to leave? If that is it, tell thinker? Honesty is of great importance right now SNL, and I would appreciate any words from you? I don't want to hear you say you want to be here to work more on the marriage, that statement seems to me to be false by what you state here. What you post here just in the last few days, states you are done, don't want this marriage, don't want to do the stuff, don't want to pretend, and continously say why stay in this marriage? SNL I am hurting and I want the hurt to stop. Please stop the hurt and do the honorable thing and leave!!!!!!! Why do I have to get you out of the house with papers? Don't you care enough about me to say yes I will leave so you won't have to have that on your mind? It seems that you would care enough and protect me enough to do that? You protected the OW according to her voice mails, to not tell her H for a few months or longer. She even thanked you for protecting her and giving her more time. She said a few months won't be enough, she needs time to get the courage to start thinking about telling her H. She says that to tell Coy is going to hurt him, since this is the second time she has had a sexual affair outside her marriage. Why don't you protect me SNL? Am I nothing to you, if so then tell me? I will know then that the OW is the one in your heart, and the only one in your heart.<p>I am going through a hard time, seems I cry a lot and don't have motivation to do things. I do things for the sake of needing to get things done (because I am responsible) but if I could have my way, I would sit by a fireplace (we don't have one) with a blanket and many cups of herbal tea and a good book and vegetate for days on end. I have little desire to continue exercising, and am probably gaining weight. Don't eat much, but I don't walk hardly either. There for awhile I was doing pretty good, walked with my dog often, but it seems I can't get over this hill. I look up and just see myself sliding back down the hill after I try to take a few climbs up the steep hill, and then I slide back again, and the top never gets to my feet. I can barely see the top with my eyes, and it just frustrates me to no end. Why can't I get to the top and look down and see how easy the path will be. I am trying not to be woe is me, but I feel miserable. Am seeing the GYN this coming week, and hopefully she can help me! She knows everything about SNL and what he did, and knows I have had a difficult time. She is the one that spent an hour with me on the phone, and an hour in the office. She is truly concerned and wants to help and told me to call if I just want to talk. <p>Things are a mess here in Michigan. Electricity is still out in quite a few places, lucky we got ours back today. Trees down, big limbs on the roads, and roads blocked. I had physical therapy this morning and then went and got parts, and stopped at a K-mart. Am back to get some paperwork done, and clean a little while I do paperwork. Cleaning helps to deter the boredom of the paperwork. Life is pretty dismal here. High School canceled, and one older child- his university canceled. Many kids commute, so canceled, the other had to go to her university. <p>SNL out on service calls now, just decided to see if any posts to this thread and now I will go too. Bye for now, thanks for all the information that you all offered.

I haven't been here for a long time. I havae tried to use some of the material here in my own life. I guess I got caught up in this thread. Maybe I missed something, but I don't recall anything being said about love. It is just so sad. Time goes by so fast--we have so little of it. I hope things get better for you both.

Thinker,<p>It takes practice to detach yourself, you'll slip and it will be harder at times, but it will help you to gain independence. Tomorrow take a walk with your dog and get back on track. This is what you need too.<p>Again, the key is making yourself happy without being dependent on a man. Thinker, this will make you a stronger and more loveable person than you are now. You deserve the best. You deserve someone who will give you those years that SNL can't. <p>Years from now when you are loved by someone who comes home bring you flowers, taking you out on dates, and saying how very special you are, (AND THIS WILL HAPPEN), you will wonder why in the world you hung on to SNL for so long, you will wonder why you didn't see that God had other plans for you to find someone who can love you as you should be loved.<p>Also, as you detach yourself you have to get rid of the bitterness, this will only hurt you. Since SNL is still saying he's "emotionally divorce, paper means nothing, yada, yada" and since you are talking to a lawyer soon...Have you considered going into plan B now? I think a plan B would be the best approach. Also, have you thought about your plan B letter?<p>Take care and good luck,<p>ANNA

thinker,<p>Go to the library, or a bookstore, and get yourself a copy of Mars and Venus Starting Over, by John Gray.<p>It talks a lot about letting go and ways to do it, ways that we sabotage this process, and ways to get ahead after the end of a relationship.<p>REALLY, do this for yourself........it will help, I promise you.<p>Love and light,<p>jacky

Plan B - getting away from each other, separation with a 3rd party intervening for communication only. Finding oneself in what they want to do. Sounds good to me. Didn't think about the plan B letter, but will now. I know detaching myself from SNL is the only way to go. SNL will have to find someone else to be his in-love sexual companion. Will be hard with the business leaving, but this is what SNL wants. I have no other way of making an income for this family at this time. Filling out the application at the hospital, nothing has happened yet. Called the other day, and they are cutting back, recession starting and they have the need to cut back in areas. <p>Thinker did something for herself. Thinker did some investigating on the OW. There is this need to end her in my mind and thoughts. Told SNL about what Thinker did. Found through calls that the OW and her husband sold their house and moved. No forwarding address at this time. Found what they sold their house for, and the realtor gave me the cell phone of the agent that sold the house. Realtor told me the terms, said they had immediate occupancy on the listing, house in excellent repair, decorated beautifully, big kitchen, 3 bedroom, 2 bath home, nice yard, mature trees, and new windows, with A/C. Realtor said the house in quite nice in the pictures listed. And the house is taken over by the new owners. Maybe I am obsessed, but I need to put an end to this sexual, affair obsessed woman.<p>I will read the book by John Gray, Mars and Venus starting over. His other books were good. <p>SNL seems to be in a good mood today, he didn't sleep well the night before, because we lost our power and he sleeps with a cpac machine for apnea. Last night he went to bed at a reasonable time, and fell asleep immediately and didn't seem to move at all. So I am happy that he seems rested and ready for a new day. We have a small generator and a large one. He realized yesterday that he could of plugged his cpac machine into the generator. He is a problem solver, and now he has that one solved. <p>Thanks for all the information. Thinker<p>[ February 02, 2002: Message edited by: thinker ]</p>