Bill,<p>Thanks. What is it about separation then, that seems so final? It doesn't feel like marriage! I am the one saying open your eyes we are soul mates, don't go, I love you. Showing it, knowing it. Yet, It feels like I am alone, sad, feeling and thinking things that are so not me. Like the fact that I made a promise to myself that I would never hate/despise anything or anyone, it is negative energy. But right now I hate the whole thing! I hate feeling so bad, I hate thinking bad things, I hate saying mean things, I hate everything about SEPARATION.<p>[ February 14, 2002: Message edited by: eyes_wide_shut ]</p>

I hear ya, girl!! Me too!!!<p>The thing about separation is...well...YOU'RE SEPARATE!!! You're not together. No, it's not divorce, but it's not being together either. It sucks!<p>So what do you think about asking him to leave? I'm curious.<p>Aloha,
Ms.O

Today he left...AGAIN. He lewft Moday Morning, came home Tuesday night/ Wed Mornign 3AM. He was staying at work and needed to sleep so he came home. Now, His parents who live 5 minutesf rom us have left for 7 days. So he packed some things and is goingthre tonight. <p>God I hate it already! But I now if he is going to see the light, so to speak, it has to be done. I will write later. I am sure I will be up!<p>Thanks for all the love & light!

((((((((((((((((((((Michelle)))))))))))))))))<p>He is playing some games with you, huh? I think that you may need to set some boundaries to protect yourself from disappointment after disappointment. He left Monday, and comes back in the middle of the night, only to hurt you again by leaving.........this is cat and mouse, and it is so cruel.<p>Maybe you need to let him know that all the to-ing and fro-ing is too painful for you, and that he either comes home, or he finds permanent accomodation elsewhere. He cannot just expect you to be happy with this.<p>I am sorry for the pain you are going through. YES, separation SUCKS, but Bill is right, you ARE still married, and you have to be true to your own heart in what you do in this time.<p>But, consider yourself slapped a good one! [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Now, recall all the wonderful things you told ME to do in my worst hours...take that bath, light the candles, meditate, give it to a higher power. Ask your guardians for help, and please, please know that you are doing the right thing...all things are good lessons, though we may not see it at the time.<p>Love and much healing light,<p>Jacky

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Nina too:
<strong>....and that he either comes home, or he finds permanent accomodation elsewhere. </strong><hr></blockquote><p>Yes, yes, yes. It's time to set the boundaries.<p>It is cruel and abusive to have to see and feel this day after day after day. I remember all too well how this felt. It sucked the life right out of me. <p>As painful as it was to see my STBXH finally move out, his being gone finally gave me a small amount of peace.<p>Please consider this seriously.<p>Aloha,
Ms.O

Well I am off work until Tuesday morning. not good timing I must say! Work has kept my mind flowing during the day, ya know. But I am going to try and keep busy. My H and I were supposed to go away skiing this weekend. Now I am off work and alone. This really sucks and makes me pretty mad. <p>I am going to work out and maybe pack some things around the house. Get ready for the move that I fear is coming soon.<p>I will keep in touch.

Michelle,<p>this is my suggestion, a year? on the fence, off and on for a year? slap him with divorce papers NOW!, while he is being a weiney, buying stuff together and then leaving is total manipulation, and i hate, I don't trust manipulators. . . .<p>And take it pretty seriously. . . you don't have kids, why put yourself through this for another year? Who knows how long it will take for him to decide. . . .<p>Come on Michele, stand up for yourself! tell him with ACTIONS that you won't put up with him like this any more! besides, reality more than ever has a sobering effect on everybody!<p>good luck,
but i have little tolerance for people who can't learn from their mistakes, and then make them again. . . .<p>wiftty

Let me see if I get the picture....<p>He has chosen to move out? <p>He is, for all intents and purposes, living elsewhere?<p>He can come and go at will at your primary residence? Can you do the same with his?<p>Did he say he wants to live separately?<p>If he says he wants to live separately, call a locksmith!!!!!<p>Yes your h will have a hissy fit but you will have more safety and peace at home.<p>If he wants to live separately, this could be a dose of reality for him. <p>And go read all the Plan B stuff you can. I came here long after my divorce was final so I don't know what the Harley's recommend. But it would, from what I've heard, be good for you. I did my own plan b without their recommendations and it was beneficial.<p>Pick up the phone and call the locksmith. (I did this and then stbx got mad but there wasn't much he could do since it was his idea to move out.) I felt much better knowing he couldn't come and go.

Sat night here. Just found out from a friend my H plans to go to a party tonight! Isn't that great. You all were so right. I need to file next week. Shut him out forever.<p>he promised me this time was for him to be alone. Read, think and stare at the ceiling. He called it Rehab. said he just wanted to shut out the world. Right so I am at home missing him, crying, being alone, praying he comes home. And he is out partying!<p>You all were so right. He doesnt love me. The last 11 years I have spent loving him, were just a waste! I just can't do this any more. Playing the good wife while he goes out and does what ever he wants. <p>He has just blown any chance of me letting him back in to my heart.<p>[ February 16, 2002: Message edited by: eyes_wide_shut ]</p>

Michele,<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> You all were so right. He doesnt love me. The last 11 years I have spent loving him, were just a waste! I just can't do this any more. Playing the good wife while he goes out and does what ever he wants. <hr></blockquote><p>wow, don't go so black and white, so all negative.
I am sure that during your marriage, there were lots of good times, and that he did love you. . . however, as we grow old and up, we become more true to ourselves, and that may be different than we were 10 years ago. . . .<p>i would say just the last year, he fell out of love with you for some reason, could be nothing to do with you, could be all to do with his family of origin, his make up, etc. . . . <p>there are many people who are selfish and go for the wild long shot. . . and usually go bust. . .
sounds like you married one of them . . .<p>now don't go completely hard and cold, just be tough with the concept of divorce unless he shows true remorse. . . . this is the last silver bullet you have, it may work, just be a lot wary and very guarded. . . .<p>good luck. . . .
just keep in mind, he is totally lost, and you aren't going to be an enabler any more. . ..<p>wiftty

Thanks WIFTTY.<p>I was very angry last night. I am okay today. He called me this AM (1:45)when he got home(His current home) from his party to tell me it was awful without me. He said he thought about me, admitted he missed me and us. But that he is not ready to come home. He said if he comes home too soon, he will question his own motives. Is he coming home becasue he hates being alone or because he loves and misses me. I have no clue if he is feeding me a line of bull or what. I now, this is no big deal in the grand scheme of things. But maybe there is hope?<p>TodayI am strong and posative. No more negative energy. I promise.<p>Michelle

He sure sounds like he knows how to play both sides of the fence, read your statement. . . .<p>he misses you (you feel hope)
he's not ready to come home (you still feel hope)<p>this is where slapping him with the divorce will get him to take you seriously. . . . .<p>now my suggestion was not about your interpretation of the past years. . . .
my suggestion was about your actions to stand up for yourself, and how you want to be treated. . .<p>the biggest identification of a manipulator is that the words don't match the actions. . . . and since your situation has gone on after discovery is the reason why i say time to get serious. . . <p>tell me, how was his childhood and what was/is his parent's like? was his dad a serial adulterer? any brothers? where could he have possibly learned this behavior of himself is acceptable??<p>wiftty

I am not into I told ya so's ews, I just make observations, suggestions, assuming we are all adults and will be responsible for what we do with others input. I have several theories about why people "choose" each other as intimate partners, MB is only half of it, IMO you cannot decide to love someone...it is a function of how you fit them psychologically (and a few other ways but that is the main one). It is clear from your words (or rather what you don't say) that the owh is not a friend frined, whether rightly or wrongly (in the sense of would it work if you were both free) he is a marital prospect, and you know that deep inside somewhere, where we know such things. I only asked you this so you can protect yourself against pursuing him (and you will, cause that is what humans do, whether conciously, or unconciously), or he you. Would only be a disaster. I suspect you are both in pursuit of each other, and already qualify for an EA, just have not recognized it (although you probably do now). Further, I suspect this (in ways one can't really unravel) has already influenced the dyanmics of your and his marriages.<p>The good news is this is just life, being messy humans, and I don't think necessarily is a bad thing. Realizing you are attracted in some fundamental nurturing/mating way to someone other than spouse is the survival mechanism by which we become aware our life is not working, and needs attending too. Unfortuneately too often in our ignorance of such things we continue right along until we are in a full blown affair, and wonder how it happend, well, that's how it happens. One of the strong points of MB is it is a real education in such issues, and let's us know (especially with peer feedback) when we are at risk. Obviously you (and owh) need to stop interacting, and focus on resolving your lives....if it turns out sometime in the future you are both free agents, then what could be, might be. It is good that you recognize your vulnerability, and the collorary that you cannot trust your emotions.....it is quite possible you are no longer in-love (and maybe never actually were, but that is another issue) with your H, only with the picture of marriage/love. If so, you are emotionally a free agent, and can and will fall in love with someone else if you don't protect yourself. <p>That is where our brains come in, they direct us away from any interactions that aren't safe...going to ca would have been a huge mistake...not cause you "intended" anything illicit, but because you are vulnerable, and at risk....besides no man worthy of being marriage material is going to pull a married woman away from her H (separated or not) to be his escort.... there is a fine line between maybe developing an initial friendship, and offering some support, but keeping firm boundaries and letting you take care of your life, instead of seducing you away to parties in beverly hills, forget this guy, he is no friend, he is a player.<p>The owh and wine thingy is not good either, but given the nature of your developing relationship makes more sense, you guys are falling for each other, and doing what comes naturally. Still, you need to look hard at why he suggested that, what he expected/wanted, and what signals you gave him. Frankly, I believe in up front, I was where you are, and when I realized the freindship was becoming something more I did not beat around the bush (my marriage was emotionally estranged, and had been for sometime, I know now we had emotionally divorced and I was vulnerable, but that is another story)...I simply told her I was falling in love with her...fully expecting to be sent packing, but I did not want to conceal the truth from her.....as it turns out she felt the same way, and then we were in trouble.... The best way to deal with this, is focus back on your spouse and deal with your life (which is what we did) before you get to far down that road...the farther you go, the harder it is for everyone. <p>Now back to your H. Given what we have to go on (from your posts) I still think you are married to someone incapable of loving you. He clearly does what is in his best interests, and he is very good at manipulating you ews. I agree with wifty, start disconnecting and moving on. I would suggest you only attempt reconcilliation if he voluntarily does all the required work, no backsliding, no anger, no nothing....otherwise you are just going to be his doormat forever, going through these love/hate cylces endlessly, as he manipulates you. I would also try to understand ews, and how she became dependent on this kind of toxic love.<p>[ February 17, 2002: Message edited by: sad_n_lonely ]</p>

Oh my, eyes_wide_shut, what a mess we have here! I just went through a good portion of this thread and I have to admitt, I got hooked. I don't know you at all, am new here and have only posted a few times, but if I could add something that I have learned...<p>Your H is being very selfish. He is doing things that will make him "feel good". Call it a mid-life crisis or what ever, but bottom line is he is not regarding you at all. The coming back after the OW and him split for what ever reasons and the big show of love with gifts, ring, promises....all out of a desire to get what he wants. Ask yourself this, does he really love YOu?? Or is he so in love with himself and doing his own 'thing' that he doesn't really have room to love you?? AND you say you love him, but do you?? Or are you just so attached to being with him that you mistake that for love??? I am not saying that you don't love him, but what kind of love is it and is it real or is it out of habit or worse yet, out of some inner need to attach to someone you already have been with and know..you know like a 'habit' or something. <p>I say these things not to hurt you or belittle the situation, cause I know this is painful enough. But I guess that after all that your H has done, I don't see any real repentence. He may speak the words 'I am sorry' but he certainly isn't living them. He may say that he doesn't want anyone else, but I don't see him reassuring you or giving you reason to trust him. I see a selfish man pursuing what HE WANTS TO DO and then expects you to be there when he is done...kinda like mom..."Mom, I'm home, where's dinner". He wants to go out and play and then come home to a nice warm cozy house with things just the way he likes them. Are you sure you want to even consider going back with this guy??? Take a real good look at yourself. Do you love him because he "needs" you so much to be there, just like mommy??? Are you ready to examine why you love an unrepentant womanizer and still think about being there for him??? Is that love or is that some kind of, I don't know, sickness??? I am sorry, don't mean to be blunt, but had to pose the guestion.<p>I too am dealing with an unrepentant H who, for different reasons, wants his cake and eat it too. I am doing a lot of soul-searching and exploring latley to understand what I should do. I too, waver and know that I am both 'sick' of his game playing and am 'sick' because I continue to stay and play the game. I have real decisions I need to make and so do you. Are you ready to make 'real' decisions based on the reality or are you going to go back to the game playing???

Hello everyone.<p>Wiftty: My H's family ties are very strong. Not one divorce in the lot, except his brother. Very loving caring parents, Aunts, Uncles,Cousins.... I am very close to his family as he is with mine. We are God parents of 4 kids and legal guardians of 3. Our friends and family respected us, thought we were a very strong couple. Most of them have no clue what has been going on. <p>However one note, his older and only brother is on his second wife. wife #1 left him for many reasons but one was his extra carricular activities. If you know what I mean. Isn't that odd, such a strong family of marriage, commitment, love and giving and yet he and his brother both strayed. I am sure his parents had thier fights but no adultery. They have been together since child hood as have many of his family members.<p>When I met him he had very strong ideas about marriage, commitment and adultery. One of his best friends from child hood was dating/sleeping with a married woman. My H was so upset he wrote his friend a 3 page letter on how dissapointed he was in him and how he didn't feel they could be friends while he was doing such an immoral thing. Eventually his friend stopped seeing the woman and 3 years later they became friends again.<p>Another friend and his wife were having trouble and she had an affair. He forbid me to see her or hang with her after the two split, because he said she was immoral and just trash. He has actually appologized for this now.<p>So now he is wondering to himself how he could have strayed with the morrals he had going into out relatinship. He thinks maybe he doesn't truly love me or he wouldn't have done it. He feels as if he let me down and needs to know why. This is why he says he has left. By the way he is staying at his parents. He calls me, even if I don't answer and sends me e-mails, which I mostly don't answer. I miss him, but do not want him back if he is going to do this again in 5 months!<p>SNL:<p>you are very correct about the owh. He has called me non stop since my H left. I am worried about him. He carries a lot of anger towards his W. She is out with another man for the weekend and her kids are very upset. The oldest keeps asking the OWH why his mom is doing this... So the OWH has left me several messages calling her names and just very angry words. I chose to avoid him. This made him angry with me. So this morning I called him back. I told him I could not take his anger and negativity and he needed to get his head o straight. He did not like it much. But I am cards on the table kind of person, so I told him as it was. Funny why can't I do that in my own life?<p>Any way you ar correct and I am staying away from him.<p>FRSTRTD:<p>You are new here. Welcome. Thank you for your advise. I am tryng to move on, get tough. It is very hard, because I do beleive my H is struggling with his own issues. Now he has always been very seflish and strong minded. But we had a give and take. He was very good at filling my needs for a very long time. (not right now, though). Yes I am attached to him so to speak, but it is more than that. We shared everything, hobbies, sports, friends, family, each other. We truly could enjoy each other anywhere or with anyone. But two years ago, I started traveling. A lot!! I am A VP of a large company and business was my focus. He encouraged me every step, was very proud of me. At the same time I cooked, cleaned, did laundry, paid the bills, etc... That was when I started to resent him and we grew a little apart. Not totally, but we faught more. We needed couseling or something, but not a divorce. I do love him and everything we share. I can see us growing old together, he just needs to get his head out of his fanny and open his eyes! [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img] , if not I willmove on. Soon!!!!!!<p>Anyway, I am glad to have all of you here to talk to. Thank you!!!!!!<p>[ February 17, 2002: Message edited by: eyes_wide_shut ]</p>

EWS<p>the appearances of today may not reflect the actions and mistakes of the past. . . . <p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> If you know what I mean. Isn't that odd, such a strong family of marriage, commitment, love and giving and yet he and his brother both strayed. I am sure his parents had thier fights but no adultery. They have been together since child hood as have many of his family members. <hr></blockquote><p>what you describe in your H sounds as though
he has seen it as a kid with his parents, probably his father. . . <p>the reason i suspect he had such a strong reaction to his friends is that he was very hurt as a child when he discovered his dad in a an affair.<p>i also suspect that he has acted in the same way as he is repeating the past he has learned. . .<p>from your response, i don't think you know the whole story of his family of origin. . . .<p>remember, what you see is not just black and white, which is why i got weirded out when you started going all black and white on me. . .<p>I suggest that you get him to read "Private Lies" and read it yourself. . . .<p>good luck, but you are not clued in yet. . . keep studying and reading. . . <p>wiftty

WIFTTY,<p>I will get the book. I am posative though about his parents. <p>Anyway big steps last night with H. I am posastive he does love me and is not trying to manipulate me. He did mention that he has read my posts (((Great))) [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img] <p>But one thing he mentioned that was this is all one sided and yoou all think he is so terrible. SO I am posting part of two e-mails he sent me. One is part of his journal he is keeping:
Excert from Journal:<p>For a while I have been asking myself what love is. The question is so
complicated, and there really is no answer, so what I am going to focus on
is, what I believe love is not!!! At this point, love is not: thinking
about someone different while I am with Michelle. It is not: wondering if
you would be happier alone. It is not: having someone cater to your every:
need, hunger, itch, request, etc. while having barely 10% returned back.
Until I am capable of returning as much enthusiasm into this marriage, there
is no going home. Again my fear is, I will be uncertain for more time than
Michelle will be willing to give me. I told her not to give me any emotion
while I am away. I know how she feels, and by doing this, I might be coming
back for the wrong reasons. Seeing her pain is the very last reason I want
to come home. Seeing my own pain is what will begin to convince me that I
love Michelle, and want to spend the rest of my life with her. 2/11/02<p>The second is an e-mail he sent me yesterday abou this Bar experience the night before:<p>I was bored and tired at 12:30, and they stayed out till 6am. What's wrong with that picture. I could tell that a bar is the very last place I would want to be as a single person. I'm pretty much the only one there sober, and I'm looking around thinking "why the hell would anyone want to meet a person at a bar. Everyones drunk, so how could you possibly get to know a person." Anywhay, very uncomfortable, and makes you think a little deeper into things. <p>Anyway, I think he truly is sorting things out. I am giving him a little more time.l A few days. After 11 years, what is a few days.

Michelle,<p>he is struggling with mid life feelings, his writing however, is not taking responsibility or thinking through for an answer. He is waiting for something to happen, which, in reality is not how life works, other than waiting for death . . . which is guaranteed to happen. . . .<p>My initial point with your actions is to use your actions to say, "waiting or inaction is a choice that i am no longer willing to tolerate"<p>Remember, love is a choice and an action, although also a feeling, that is internal to each person, and is not how one shows love so that the other person receives love.<p>you see, without you being able to show him love, and without him being able to receive love, and without him being able to show you love, and without you being able to receive his love,<p> how is the feeling ever going to return, but to finally make a decision to try? what he is looking for is if there is not a better alternative. . . how do i perceive this?<p>well, from his note, he is waiting for something to happen. . . but since he is saying alot of not, which he is correct, he still hasn't figured out the action part. . . There is a common theme here on thsi board with MLC and problems: the misinformation about love is a feeling first, and you only get it once, and when it is gone, the feeling will never come back. . . kind of like
CHICKEN pox, once its over you are done for life. . .<p>well that's not a belief that makes for strong marriages. . . read "Passionate Marriage" another really good book that uses the struggle for physical intimacy as the crucible for understanding how the marital system works. . .<p>although one can get hung up with the black and white of whether this book is about sex, which it is not, it is a great read on how these marriage patterns get magnified and resolved which allows for sexual intimacy to be at its fullest. . .<p>good luck. . .<p>wiftty

what's a few days? Nothing of course, sure give em time, that's what you have been doing...as for you ewsH listen close....whining about how no one understands your viewpoint cause we have only ews words gets you no points. You are a man, you can come here and subject yourself to peer review, which in itself is a responsible act, and then get feedback (and chastisement as needed) re your issues...until you will do that (or something similar via counselling) you are just posturing (meaning blowing smoke). Your emails have the right sort of tone to them, but such is easily faked, and words often used to manipulate....all that counts is ACTIONS...and repetitive actions over time....your actions over time have revealed you do not seem to love your w (which may be true, and is not a condemnation, it is something that needs to be resolved, she needs to do the same, it only works when both people are radically honest, and both are in-love with each other...not caring, not getting needs met contracturally.....but wanting noithing more in life than each other)....your actions instead reveal a suspicious looking focus on YOU, and what you want....that is not love.<p>"figuring" out yourself is a laudable goal, and one to be embraced....there is much debate over whether doing so living together or separate is best....I suspect it depends, and can work either way....but IMO you do one or the other....meaning if separate, then you are separate, you do not see or interact with your spouse in any way (except re kids if you have them), and you do not pursue/date anyone else....if together, then you practice the basic rules of protection as explained here MB, and work on not love busting....in the course of this you practice radical honesty re your true feelings and such...this may reveal you are not in-love, if it does, then you both should have grown enough to deal with it in a much more healthy manner. You have lots of company, most marriages are in trouble, or in denial (same difference), the key is radical honesty, the truth always sets us free, but it can be very hard to apply....a good start for you would be to post here and start being accountable. For the record I am a wsh, and am here for the reasons I just stated. I have intitiated hundreds of discussions re what is love, marriage, bonding,..... how should relationships work, so unless you want to reinvent the wheel, search my name, and that will give you a lot of thought on these issues. Good luck.

WIFTTY:<p>I am off work today and going to the book store. I will get both those books. I am a big reader and have an open mind. So any book suggestions are appreciated!!!I DO tend to get caught up in the black and white, but I am trying to better myself and think "outside the box". I am so good at doing this when I am at work, why can't I apply the same principal to my own personal life? I realize this question needs work and am open to insight.<p>SNL:<p>Thanks for your honesty as well. ALthough don't be too hard on my H, he truly has a good heart. I think he is very close to putting all the cards together. Every bit helps. Back in Dec. he did say he would go to a marriage counselor with me. But then he chose to leave instead. To figure himself out on his own. Take it as you will. I do love him. I am very sure he knows that this is the last step to either recover or divorce.<p>WIFTTY & SNL: You two have been really great. (everyone else here too!)Very honest, wise and sincere to helping me through this. I am sorry if my action to "wait" on divorce has dissapointed you. I can assure you, it will be coming soon (maybe next week) if that needs to be my next step. But I do know my H and I feel with every instinct that my H does love me and really has struggeld with what he has done in the past year. The issue is "Can he get past it, take his mistakes and make himself a better person?"<p>Talk to you later. I am off to shop!