It can once your able to forgive the hurts and betrayals...My parents became friends..my dad was even there for my mom when she died..<p>Since my seperation I've been seeing someone who is divorced..he and his ex-wife are friends..she and I are also friends..not that we go out drinking or to dinner together or anything..but she'll call here to talk to him..and she and I talk..I am also friends w/ her sister and bil..
and her dad..her parents are also divorced and friends..<p>another friend of mine her parents are divorced and they have family bar-b-ques and such her mom is still bitter and it's been 20 years..but on those days she puts her feelings aside and goes..
and has fun..or at least pretends to enjoy herself..I think if she allowed herself to to be happy in a relationship again she would get over the bitterness, but she refuses to trust another man again..<p>I guess it depends on the people involved and how mature they are..and how forgiving their hearts are..

Well here is my opinion. My X and I have been divorced for almost a month (I filed and separated 14. He left me for a 21 year old college girl, I am 33. He is to the best of my knowledge still with her, although she seems to have disappeared off the planet as of late. Are we friends? I don't think I'd call it that although we get along quite well. We have four children so we have constant contact. Although I don't want to do things with him, I would like a more friendly give and take relationship. <p>Here is our real problem. He is very selfish, irresponsible, and undependable. He is very caught up being a taker and he seems to have a need to lie about everything he does. He doesn't want me, yet he can't seem to let go either, even with the divorce. <p>Do I think we could be friends? Yes I do,we have always had great chemistry and gotten along very well. The problem is that he has too many issues and addictions and until his multiple denials end and he deals with things a real friendship is out of the question. <p>Until that day I remain fair to him yet look out for myself and the kids. I have learned that as long as I don't expect things from him, blindly believe what he says, or rely on him I am okay. I have established boundaries for the first time in our relationship and although he still tests them from time to time, things go quite smoothly. Since we are new to this divorce thing I am hoping in time we will be able to be friends. The kids deserve at least that much.<p>K

Can I jump in here.<p>I'm so glad this post came up. <p>Before we D (7+ mos ago), I explained to my ex-H that if he went thru with it, it would be the end of our relationship in every aspect. I told him this, and meant it, because he kept saying how we'd continue to be "friends" after Divorcing and he'd be in contact with me from time-to-time. <p>Friends do not do the things he has done to me. Friends do not allow strangers (OW) to do the terrible things she did to me. Friends are there for you when you are sick and care for you.<p>Ex-H's contact of me consisted of telling me how he still loved me and missed me, how he'd never love anyone like he loves me. YET .... he is now engaged to OW. In my eyes, friends do not torture friends. He knows how hard ALL of this was for me, and he continued to tout love sentiments for me with all his gooey, lovey miss-you crap. <p>I know I sound bitter, and I am determined to shake it, so my solution has been to thwart all of his contact, which finally, as of December, I have been successful in doing.<p>His last attempt was sending me a BDay card packed with his love drival in it. He's a monster!<p>Jo<p>[ March 13, 2002: Message edited by: Resilient ]</p>

Judge for yourself, here's the definition of friend per American-Heritage online dictionary:
friend
<p> PRONUNCIATION:
frnd
NOUN:
1. A person whom one knows, likes, and trusts.
2. A person whom one knows; an acquaintance.
3. A person with whom one is allied in a struggle or cause; a comrade.
4. One who supports, sympathizes with, or patronizes a group, cause, or movement: friends of the clean air movement.
5. Friend A member of the Society of Friends; a Quaker.

WORD HISTORY:
A friend is a lover, literally. The relationship between Latin amcus “friend" and am “I love” is clear, as is the relationship between Greek philos “friend” and phile “I love.” In English, though, we have to go back a millennium before we see the verb related to friend. At that time, frond, the Old English word for “friend,” was simply the present participle of the verb fron, “to love.”<p>I guess definition "2" is the one that applies to most of us, but I don't think we "know" this person anymore. Note definition "1" uses the word trust.<p>[ March 13, 2002: Message edited by: catamount82 ]</p>

Hey Catamount,<p>I see your sig line shows your X will be marrying later this year. Funny coincidence is so is mine, approx in September too. <p>Are you in contact with your spouse? How do you feel about the engagement/marriage? How are you handling it? <p>Reason I'm asking is this has really gotten to me, I'm very sad and emotional. Like going back to D-Day, but not as bad. It's so hard to get your mind around knowing your partner in life will be sharing a life, house, family, love with someone else. Doing the things we use to do. Being close like we were. <p>How in the world do you get thru this without all the visuals of them and the memories of what was, barraging you daily? Shoot, hourly!<p>Jo<p>[ March 13, 2002: Message edited by: Resilient ]</p>

Friends.....<p>Nope. Not now. Probably not ever. Friends support one another, have mutual goals in the friendship, give to the other person, communicate in a positive manner, have the other's best interest at heart, are honest, and want to be in the other's company. My ex husband and I don't meet that criteria.<p>He cheated on me, lied to me, and put me and our young children through hell...does that sound like someone I would like as a friend? For the record, the OW was one of my best friends. You all know the saying......with friends like these..... [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>He would love to be friends. But what he really wants is for me to say what he has done is ok. I can't say that. I think I've come to the point where I've forgiven him, but that doesn't mean I respect, like, or trust him. We have to communicate frequently because of our three young children. I have established boundaries I would never put on a friend. We communicate primarily through e-mail, we only discuss the children, and my life is none of his business. He is not really welcome in my house, but I will allow him in the living room to pick up and drop off the kids. <p>Some divorced people appear to be friends. I would say maybe they are friendly, as opposed to friends. But whatever works for them! It isn't anything I am hoping for, although I do want to always be civil and non-derogatory for my children's sake.<p>WhoAmINow (Krista)

This is an interesting thread, one of the things I wonder about is how people who cannot be friends divorced, could ever be successfully married. It seems intuitive that a divorce that goes badly, and an ex-relationship that is pretty much a relaization you don't even really like the person (just have to put up with them) is a pretty vivid validation that indeed the marriage was not good for these 2 individuals....and it seems that would be comforting as people move on with new relationships (knowing the old one definitely was not healthy).... yet often folks seem bitter, and even "want" this person they dislike back... that suggests the relationship is based on dysfunctions, not healty bonding.

SnL,<p>As long as there is an OP in the picture, there is NO CHANCE for ex's to be friends, most times.<p>You know as well as I, once a WS or EX has ended the A and all contact with OP, the WS seems to be able to BE A TRUE FRIEND again to the BS. With OP in the picture, WS or EX's agenda is not in the best interest of the BS, they are not being a genuine friend ... their thoughts, acts, agenda and entire demeanor is OP (betrayal) driven.<p>So, in essence I'm stating to have a friend, you need to be a friend. OP's presence seems to keep the WS from doing that.<p>Friendship is a two way street, so try and look at it from the other side of the coin for a change, will ya?<p>Jo<p>[ March 14, 2002: Message edited by: Resilient ]</p>

I see your point jo, but isn't that my point, that if (for whatever reason) either party is a "poor" freind as an x, that means the marriage was no good? (as in not a safe, healthy, place)...the op has nothing to do with it, even if they did not exist, the marriage was still no good because the potential for this kind of divorce existed? Almost a chicken egg thing I guess....is the marriage bad...and the op a sympton, or the marriage go bad cause of op, but what does that say about ws? Especially if they not only wandered, but became hateful and hurtful before and after divorce? It almost seems a bs should be greatful life revealed the true nature of a ws... (at least the ones that handle the affair aftermath poorly).<p>jo, can I ask something? If there had been no op, none ever, and your marriage had proceeded exactly the same, far as needs etc. and your H still the same man, just never had the opportunity to act on it...would that be ok? Would you have married him knowing he was capable of this, but would never have the opportunity to act on it? Suppose 1/2 way through this knowledge re the true nature of your H was revealed to you, would you remain married? Sort of like knowing a spouse is a pedofile, but being assured (some mystical way) they would never act on it, cause they do not want to go to jail...and "behaves" ok otherwise...would you accept such a person?<p>I know my "thought" exercises (and searches) seem pointless to many, it was pointed out to me by an authority today, that most people react to life emotionally, sort of live in the moment thing...and that us analytical types are ok, but we stress the heck out of the emotional types, can even traumatize them, though we are not trying to do so, or are even necessarily wrong...he is right, and I had come to realize that, and also think it is a matter of fit too. Since we are a very small minority of the population, our needs are neglected, understandable, but not helpful. I ask the question cause I would not accept such a mate, I need to drill down to the core of a spouse (and have the same done to me), and fit them not only for who they are now, but all their potential too. Does that make any sense?<p>What that means, for ME, is if I cannot have an amicable divorce, that simply validates for me, the marriage was unhealthy. That was why I find this thread interesting, often folks claim to love their spouse, but then dislike them after the divorce, I can't comprehend that, it doesn't compute, it just means you should have realized it did not work before the divorce either, and only did so cause there was less stress, or more denial, or whatever.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by sad_n_lonely:
jo, can I ask something? If there had been no op, none ever, and your marriage had proceeded exactly the same, far as needs etc. and your H still the same man, just never had the opportunity to act on it...would that be ok? Would you have married him knowing he was capable of this, but would never have the opportunity to act on it? Suppose 1/2 way through this knowledge re the true nature of your H was revealed to you, would you remain married? Sort of like knowing a spouse is a pedofile, but being assured (some mystical way) they would never act on it, cause they do not want to go to jail...and "behaves" ok otherwise...would you accept such a person?
<hr></blockquote><p>YES, of course I would marry him. You know why? At one time he did meet all my needs, and me his. We were good friends, best friends. Then, somehow, we both became lazy, it happens in long-term marriages. You take things and each other for granted. That doesn't mean we didn't love one another, it simply means we have grown lazy in meeting one another's needs ... no real science to that.<p>And you know what else, even if he had the propensity to do this to me but never acted on it, I would have married him, because temptation is part of life, and him not acting on it tells me he had made a choice to do the right thing. We all have temptations SnL. It's what we chose to do about it that determines our strength of character and conviction. We WALK the WALK.<p>We could all run around like cavemen and covet this and covet that, be takers, have no conscience and hurt one another to simply meet our own needs, to be completely and utterly selfish ... what kind of friggin world would that be, I ask you?<p>Jo

SnL,
I beleive the opposite may be true. If you can walk away from a divorce as friends, then you must not have had much of a marriage especially when an affair was caused the end.<p>I say that because I was married to someone I trusted and repected and depended on. She threw that all away and became someone else, someone I couldn't trust or respected and someone who was not looking out for the best interest for my/our kids.<p>Anytime I see her not acting in their best interest, I let her know. She then reponds in an arugmentative way, no I'm sorry or I didn't understand. Its pretty much I(the X) cn do anything I want.<p>It might be different if an affair didn't cause the divorce, but that is all the experience I have to deal with.<p>I think if we do have so much emotion tied up in someone, that it is natural to be hurt.<p>Also why is it in most cases that the ws spouse is the one that cause most of the problems, they never want to pay child support or if the have to, they don't. They all pretty much try to hide assets and try to emotionally blackmail the bs into doing something that is not benefitial to themselves or the kids. And then they want to remain friends? Most people don't need friends like that.<p>I was very lucky in that my x simply wanted out of the marriage. All she asked for was 50% of my pension and the house. She asked for minimal visitation and that was about it. Originally she tried some shenanigans but after a reconciliation attempt she got rid of her lawyer. I simply restarted the papers with a few changes after she wouldn't give om up .

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Resilient:
<strong>As long as there is an OP in the picture, there is NO CHANCE for ex's to be friends, most times.</strong><hr></blockquote><p>Exactly. I'd even go one step further and say that as long as there is a perceived likelyhood of any type of betrayal, there is no chance for any couple to be friends. For a BS to accept a WS as a friend would require that the WS behave in a way that reassures the BS that they need not fear further betrayal. Or, in other words:<p>
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Resilient:
<strong>So, in essence I'm stating to have a friend, you need to be a friend. OP's presence seems to keep the WS from doing that.</strong><hr></blockquote><p>Drawing from my marriage experience, I'd say that there is no way for my x and I to be friends unless she were to behave as I'd expect a friend to behave. Considering the fact that she used my love as a knife to figuratively cut my throat and leave me for dead, it's unlikely that we'll be friends. Her actions were purely her choice. She could have decided to work to repair the damage she had done to the marriage. She didn't. She made the choice, she gets the consequences. That's how the world works.

jo, I didn't mean temptation, I meant he was exactly the kind of man he is now, he was just prevented from acting on it. I think I look at human beings a little differently than many, I am not as concerned with whether someone does something or not, I am concerned with whether they are capable of doing something or not. I don't um...value good behaviour that is gauranteed because one does not want to face the consequences, I value behaviour that is taken whether there are anyt consequences or not....I have real difficulty with the notion of protecting a marriage, or even the laziness you described...I don't think people have affairs cause of laziness, or neglect, I think they have affairs cause the marriage is not valued, or is not working...both of those issues have to be addressed before one can actually decide whether to save a marriage. In my case my behaviour was wrong as far as rules go, but my intent was not...I was done with the marriage, I do not wish to harm my wife but not doing so (finding out what my feelings meant for op) would have harmed me...we could debate forever the philosophical implications of that, but it is not my point... the point is what do I do with that...you come back, take your lumps, make yourself available to explore possible reconcilliation, but you do not owe yourself to your spouse, if you don't want to be there, you are free to leave, and if isn't amicable, I think that pretty much says all that needs to be said. <p>Let me ask you another question jo, is it ever ok for a spouse to decide they do not want to be married anymore....or will they always be just a selfish no-good bas****. If your H had been respectful, treated you fairly in the divorce, respected your feelings, your boundaries and was supportive of your needs, would you let him go amicably? IMO most of the bs here are not any more honest than the ws, most say why don't you just leave if you don't want to be here...then when they do, or try to, the bs come unglued, and are pretty hateful themselves. A ws seems to only have 1 acceptable ways of reedeeming themself, renouncing their affair and reconcilling with spouse.... anything else means the ws is a defective individual....unless of course the bs was an abusive wife beater or something, than the ws gets a walk. But if the bs is a basically decent person, tries to clean up their act, and pledges eternal love and forgiveness to the ws, only a heartless no-good ws would not come back. IMO some of the hard feelings between ws and bs when a divorce ensues is the fault of the bs, who just will not let them go in peace.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by sad_n_lonely:
Let me ask you another question jo, is it ever ok for a spouse to decide they do not want to be married anymore....or will they always be just a selfish no-good bas****. If your H had been respectful, treated you fairly in the divorce, respected your feelings, your boundaries and was supportive of your needs, would you let him go amicably? IMO most of the bs here are not any more honest than the ws, most say why don't you just leave if you don't want to be here...then when they do, or try to, the bs come unglued, and are pretty hateful themselves. A ws seems to only have 1 acceptable ways of reedeeming themself, renouncing their affair and reconcilling with spouse.... anything else means the ws is a defective individual....unless of course the bs was an abusive wife beater or something, than the ws gets a walk. But if the bs is a basically decent person, tries to clean up their act, and pledges eternal love and forgiveness to the ws, only a heartless no-good ws would not come back. IMO some of the hard feelings between ws and bs when a divorce ensues is the fault of the bs, who just will not let them go in peace.<hr></blockquote><p>SnL,<p>You derailed your marriage, you can't theorize yourself out of that responsibility. I'm sorry, but that's the way it is. I know you don't want to be the bad guy, but you messed-up, you had an A, you hurt Thinker by doing so, and now you are both suffering because of it. <p>You want Thinker to be alright with a D, you want to continue to be her bud, you want to be able to do what you want and everyone conform to it .... it's just not going to happen. <p>SnL? Let go in peace? Excuse me, but why won't the WS just leave and not expect an on-going relationship with the BS. Why in God's name does the BS owe the WS anything if they want to sever them from their life. Divorce is just that. Divorce says I don't want you in my life anymore, I reject you, I don't need you, you are not adequate as a spouse.<p>Do you have another definition for divorce I'm not aware of?

Definition of DIVORCE: [for SnL]<p>SYLLABICATION: di·vorce<p>PRONUNCIATION: d-vôrs, -vrs <p>NOUN:<p>1. The legal dissolution of a marriage.
2. A complete or radical severance of closely connected things.<p>VERB:
Inflected forms: di·vorced, di·vorc·ing, di·vorc·es

TRANSITIVE VERB:<p>1. To dissolve the marriage bond between.
2. To end marriage with (one's spouse) by way of legal divorce.
3. To cut off; separate or disunite: an idea that was completely divorced from reality.

any other definition of divorce? Sure, it is simply a boundary.....it is not life or death, hate or love, it simply a recognition you are not going to excpect an intimate relationship with someone (and has specific legal consequences), has nothing to do with loving, caring, interracting supportively, etc. with that person. You are just going to pull back from the intimacy of a marital relationship....did I miss something somewhere.... you marry someone and then stay married or they hate your guts? No thanks.... and frankly even if I was in a wonderful marriage and somehow came to know my spouse would hate me guts if I left them, then I would leave immediately.<p>I understand it is a rejection, I just do not understand the response to rejection....I have no problem with rejection myself, so maybe that is why I don't see it.....I never expected anything from anyone they didn't freely give, and understood it could end anytime, and that I would be ok if it did. In the early years of our marriage I was rejected as much as any bs, was made clear I was second to dad, ok it hurt, and I fought it for awhile, but I never thought it was cause I was not worthy....same if she had ever had an affair, I instinctively know affairs are not about the bs, but are about the ws, wouldn't have bothered me in that sense... I know God loves me, and I love myself, I know I am ok, and whatever anyone else thinks of me is not that important to my well-being...does that make any sense? I do not see divorce as a rejection, I see it as a boundary. It simply means there is no expectation of marital type intimacy in the relationship, the rest of the relationship, and history, and caring, and love, and support has not changed at all. But if it does, if the bs chucks it, it just tells me the marriage was not really valued much. Don't we talk her often about happiness comes from inside? So why would divorce make one be unhappy, or dislike the ex-spouse (assuming they treat you with caring, respect, and protection).

btw I did not derail the marriage, it was derailed long long ago. I just gave my w more ammunition. I don't think an affair can actually cause a divorce, people cause divorces, the 2 people who are married, and one of them files divorce papers, that is what causes divorce. I do not subscribe the theory human beings are taken over by alein op....human beings do what they want, and if a bs or ws leaves a marriage it is cause they want to, and that want was in there all the time, all the op did was get people off their a** and look at the marriage and make decisions. This notion op can make someone leave a spouse is ludicrous.

SnL,<p>Until you have been a BS, I don't think you can tell us you would be fine/no problem with a betrayal/rejection by your spouse. <p>You have no frame of personal first hand reference to draw from to make that statement valid.<p>Jo

SnL,
I really have to disagree with you on that last statement. You've been on here a long time, how many posts have you read where the bs is caught unawares and the ws simply up and leaves.<p>My x and I never had angry fights, never went through separations. Was it a perfect marriage, no. But there was never any talk about leaving the marriage by either one of us.<p>Then suddenly the op is in the picture and the marriage and the family is the last thing that is thought of. <p>You are making a divorce sound like then end of a business relationship when it is far more than that.<p>You also mention how a person really is. I believe this to be ws speak. My x said the same thing. How she is acting now is how she really is. So she hid her true personality for at least the 20 yrs that I knew her? I don't think so.<p>You also mention that in your mind, your marriage was over. Did you ever discuss that with your wife? Why didn't you leave before the affair??<p>The reason you state, in your mind the marriage was long over, is the reason we bs have such a hard time. It is news to us. Not matter what you think or what you call it, it is still a rejection to/of us.<p>Playing word games such as "I am not rejecting you" just doesn't cut it. I call it word games because I have noticed how when people don't like something, they are discriminating, but if I don't like it, I'm picky.<p>[ March 14, 2002: Message edited by: RWD ]</p>

rwd, I don't think anyone is actually caught unawares, if you are observant enough you will know something is not right with a ws....admittedly that can be difficult...but I think those kind of bs are often guilty of hiding heads in the sand, or just assuming vows are a gaurantee, so they don't "see" the evidence...but be that as it may....in my case we have had dissension our entire marriage I am not one to let anything go...and when I finally stopped fighting for the marriage my wife should have had 5 alarm bells going off in her head...the first time I responded to one of her many many suggestions we should get divorced with a "maybe you are right" instead of my usual no way...should have been a bit of clue, ya think?<p>I did not know I was headed for an affair, but I sure communicated I had given up...and I will not allow myself to be chastised for not sending her a registered letter detailing that fact...she has an obligation to know where I am at emotionally all the time, to take my emotional temperature regularly....she chose not to, all she had to do was enquire and I would have told her I did not see us growing old together, or much longer....but I had not fully adjusted to my shift myself, so there was nothing to discuss, we were in withdrawal and hardly talked about anything, mostly we avoided each other.<p>Jo, if you are gonna play the never been there card, ok...not much I can say, and I realize no one can fully say anything about another until been there....likewise you have no idea what being a ws means, so any opinions re that are of little substance...correct? Frankly I think we are all human beings with a pooled set of similar experiences, most people have been "betrayed" and have some sense of what that means...likewise most have made bad decisions, and know what that means....if only bs can talk about bs, and only ws talk about ws...there is not much room for exchange of info...right? I do try to understand a bs, do you try to understand what a ws is about? But the point drifted, there really was no substantive refutaion of anything I said....and if a bs (or anyone) wants to be bitter and cynical it is their choice....sometimes justified, sometimes not....btw I know several couples that are on excellent terms, and very good friends with ex's. One of which was a ws, and gets along great with his ex-w, and has a terrific marriage with the ow...BUT they did not run away...they quit the affair, and worked on their marriages and both failed (for good reasons, having to do with how they fit), they did not get together until much later. There are all kinds of marriages jo, and all kinds of divorces, some are good, some are bad (of both)...it really is an individual choice...the only important thing IMO is people do what Dr Phil preaches (and MB) and that is do the work and figure out who you are and what you want and act on it proactively.....