<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by sad_n_lonely:
<strong>...there really was no substantive refutaion of anything I said....</strong><hr></blockquote><p>There's no reason to refute anything you've said. It's a waste of time on both sides, because you can't hear it.

Sad n Lonely
When I told my XH I'd been with somebody else he told me how much I'd hurt him, and he now only realises the pain that I went through because he'd had an affair. But inside I only thought it can't be as sever as the pain I'd felt as we were still married when he decided to stray. One day you may feel this pain and then things might be slightly clearer for you.<p>Pantha

osbane...ditto methinks.<p>pantha...Sad n Lonely, When I told my XH I'd been with somebody else he told me how much I'd hurt him, and he now only realises the pain that I went through because he'd had an affair. <p>snl...I know people say this, I don't really think it is all that true, I think it is part of games people play, with themselves and each other...the pain game. No matter what the issues, health, financial disastere, loss of a child, crippling injuries, genetic deformities, inadvertently (but negligently) hurting someone else badly, infidelity (in it's various guises), neglect/abuse, all of it very painful, do we (the general we) really want to have a diaglog about what pain is worse? Does it serve any useful purpose? How do we craft a scale to measure it, and what about peoples different capacity for pain, some will say something is not so bad, another something is intolerable...what do we do with that? Does the one who hurts more get cared for more, or are they told to buck up, get over it (with appropriate lovingness of course)...I have a lot of therories on pain, and one is that as a society that has gotten pretty soft, everyday is NO LONGER a fight for survival, we do things like wallow in our various miseries, and attach far too much importance to the emotional events in our lives....I think we do for manipulative reasons...the raw absolute facts are clear to anyone who looks.....relationship failures are a common part of our existence, they do not hurt us at all in any real fashion (meaning as long as our means to survive and prosper are intact, which they usually are, or could be if the courts would enforce the econoimic contracts). Our lives do not change in any substantive way, except we no longer interact that much with a particular human being... we are completely free to form a new pairbod elsewhere and be able to live a marital lifestyle (if we wish), no one has died, no is being denied access to other potential mates....there is no injury.<p>snl...Everyone feels disappointment, and disruption and emotionally interprets that as pain, so tries to avoid it...the biochemistry is clear, and makes sense....so one is going to "feel" pain. But dwelling on it, letting it consume you to the point we talk about how it has destroyed us, or how could our spouse do such an awful thing to us, and so forth is purely manipulative, first...cause there is nothing anyone can do about it, it is your pain, and you have to deal with it....and second, it arises usually from a spouse doing what they felt they needed to do (except for the very few who have an affair solely to hurt or abuse a spouse, and we can shoot those people for all I care). I am a very pragmantic person, I have never given anyone the power to hurt me, I will experience hurt the same as any in life, and do, including the hurt of rejection...but I do not dwell on it, I do not talk about it, I change my focus, and take action that will resolve the issue the pain came from. That is how you deal with it.... I have 4 kids, and I worry about them, and everytime I see in the news how someone loses a child to sneseless violence, I cringe with the rest of the parents...I cannot know that feeling, but I have thought about it (and had a child get misplaced from time to time, or get in a serious accident, and so experience some of that loss/fear pain)...I think about it cause I am scared I might just give up on life too like some parents do, or have it change my life in a bad way.... but because I have done the work to examine what emotional pain is about, I think I have a fighting chance of shrugging it off, and recovering my balance...why? Because it is senseless to let your life be destroyed for any emotional reason, you combat it with rigorous analytical understanding that is how humans work when they are psychologically sound...they use their analytical and emotional sides synergistically, so neither one takes over. Emotional pain is a emotional issues, it is nonsenesical, so you have to rely on your analytical side to mitigate it, hence my discussion here about divorce, freindship, and the whys. Woe is me, is one of the most unflattering of human behaviours, and is the most toxic reason for someone to recover a spouse, all you get back is someone who cannot stand your pain, and feels responsible to end it...and that is why so many recoveries fail, they are not based on a sound psychological analysis of the 2 people, and how they fit.... those of us who really react strongly to pain (in others mostly) are sometimes called conflict avoiders, and we are but for a different reason, we are trying to keep our spouses happy, cause we do not want to deal with our spouses unhappiness, anger etc...this of course is wrong, but the recipient usually likes this so the co-dependantcy continues...I have had to learn that, that I cannot do anything about anothers pain...what they feel, how much, what they do about it, is solely up to them... as a ws, there is nothing I can do for my w, all the remorse and guilt in the world are meaningless, and I think contrived when I see ws here doing it.... the bs has to find there own way, and it cannot have anything to do with the ws behaviour (good or bad)...if they cannot do that, they have abdicated personal responsibility and self-determination, and put someone else in charge of their well-being...that is a fatal psychological error. The reason a ws would exhibit remorse and guilt is to manipulate the bs into accepting them back, and forgiving them, so they can play nice again, get needs met, etc.... it is a mutually agreed to deception, and solves none of the issues between them, it is a behavioural response to human relations, and I can now see it works for many....it doesn't work for me, I deal in absolutes, I deal in reality, and I deal in total personal responsibility for my well-being...these are my needs, and I realize now very few have them in the way I do...so maybe there is something odd about me, many think so....<p>I tried the other way, of suppressing who I am for the marital good, failed miserably, should never have done it...I like who I am, I always have...but living that way led me to get lost, to question my worth...unfortunately my w is more like many of you, and I have hurt her badly, I wish I hadn't....I should have left before this happened, but I did not understand all this, guess that is how life works.... like many of you she wants abject remorse and guilt, that doesn't compute for me, I cannot give her what she wants, so will forever be branded and uncaring, insensitive loser....I am well aware of her pain, that is not the issue, it is simply she and I approach life from vastly different directions, and I cannot give her what she needs, it is not who I am. I have expressed responsibility for my actions, she had nothing to do with my choice...I have told her I am sorry for her pain, and I have done what I feel reasonable re consequences. I came back, I did the work as best I could (but inadequate cause I did not do it in a way that led to a reconcilliation, the only acceptable outcome for a ws.... I know that now)...I have told her all the truths, been there through the pain of discovery, and absorbed a tremendous amount of abuse...I have paid my debt, I have done all I can do for her pain....the rest is hers, and if she chooses to hate me, and not value me, that is her choice, and tells me all I really need to know. <p>So anyways, that is how I see the pain issue, I know it is different than many of you, and that's ok....we each must live our lives as we see fit. It does not mean I am not compassionate, or that I don't think a little wallowing isn't ok....it means I think hanging on to pain is incredibly destructive to the individual, and cannot understand why they do it.....life is a journey when you run into pain, it will pass, if you keep traveling, and be open to new vistas, new adventures....no ones well-being should be vested in another human being....children, or spouses, or anyone....ultimately we are all alone, and all we have is God, and on Him we can indeed always depend for our well-being...but that is all.<p>Interestingly many who have been through divorces, and thought life was over...are back here a year or two later happy as a bug in a rug, and wondering how they could ever have thought their old marriage was the best for them...go figure....IMO if a marriage ends, it is cause it should, you cannot lose something you never had...and if you have a well bonded marriage with someone you fit well, you can't lose em IMO.<p>pan...But inside I only thought it can't be as severe as the pain I'd felt as we were still married when he decided to stray. One day you may feel this pain and then things might be slightly clearer for you<p>snl...There is lots of pain in life, I hope to avoid it too, but whatever pain comes my way, I will deal with it....I won't wallow in it, or compare it to anyone elses, or visit it on whoever caused it....I will analyze it, and take appropriate action.....while stuffing myself with hot fudge sundaes until the life crisis passes.<p>Thank-you for your respons...I see you are divorced, how are you doing?

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by sad_n_lonely:
I did not know I was headed for an affair, but I sure communicated I had given up.... <hr></blockquote><p>Well SnL, if the above statement is true, which I'm sure it must be since you wrote it, then why didn't you leave THEN instead of having an AFFAIR???

SnL,
In one of your above postings, you state that you value people's behavior based on how they act whether there are consequences or not. For one thing all acts have consequences, good or bad or intended or not.<p>How do you value your behavior after your affair? Is it justified because your marriage was over in your mind? <p>How about the op? She had an affair with a legally married man? How do/can you value that behavior?<p>On your last post, you critize us bs for for moving on, yet earlier we're just supposed to sit back and accept the divorce. Which is it? Are we supposed to morn out loss forever or not look at it like a loss?

It goes without saying that if a marriage ends due to an affair; the BS is not going to want to by chummy. But what about if there wasn't an affair? I can tell you the chance of being friends is pretty unlikely as well. Someone is always hurt and feels betrayed no matter who or what the cause.<p>If...it seems that everyone makes predictions about what could have happened. Hindsight is 20/20. We can all sit back and say their spouse or ex should have done this or that...There is always this debate between the WS and the BS. Both parties are guilty in my mind. We all know that "if" you are unhappy you should fix the problem first and not have an affair...but that never seems to happen. The BS seems to always claim they didn't have a clue their WS was unhappy. I have read it over and over. I think cheating is a character flaw. There are lots of folks who aren't happy in their marriage, but they don't cheat. Crossing the line to the other side is hard to do...but after you do, it isn't that hard to do it again. Did your ex cheat on you or with you before you were married? I know married is different than dating, but it's still wrong...cheating is cheating. <p>My take on this is that people change for the good and the bad. Sometimes our spouse is just not a nice person. When you love someone, you don't always see the bad parts...soometimes you do, but you don't want to admit they are there. Divorce has a way of making us see the ugliness in our ex and in ourselves. We have heard a lot about what horrid things our ex's have done...but what about you? Friendship is something that endures. When someone hurts you to your core, lies, is vindictive, and cruel...they aren't your friend. You wouldn't treat your dog that way, so who wants to have contact with that person. If you think about it, in our life, how many "friends" do we really have? We have lots of acquaintances...but not many who are true friends. <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Resilient:
<strong><p>Well SnL, if the above statement is true, which I'm sure it must be since you wrote it, then why didn't you leave THEN instead of having an AFFAIR???</strong><hr></blockquote>

rwd... I am not critizing anyone, I don't even know anyone here, it is impossible to critize someone you don't know (in terms of an emotional response). What I do is discuss issues that I think important with all comers....for some reason people take my opinions personally, it is so silly. Even if I was talking about someones specific behaviour (which would be generically ctitizing) that is SOUGHT after here, it is understood people want constructiive criticism (meaning you aren't just trashing them to make yourself feel better).... why did you say anything about me being critical re the issue at hand? What does that mean? Is it a means to diminish my poing by finding me somehow deficient? Why not just refute the points, or offer an agree to disagree opinion?<p>rwd....In one of your above postings, you state that you value people's behavior based on how they act whether there are consequences or not. For one thing all acts have consequences, good or bad or intended or not.<p>snl... I know there are consequences, I was speaking to another issue, why people do or don't do things. Some (for example) claim they will never have an affair, and derive status from that...I say hmmm, maybe, but I drill down inside them to see why, and if it is cause they just don't want to deal with the consequences I am not impressed....there are better reasons not to have an affair.<p>rwd,,,How do you value your behavior after your affair? Is it justified because your marriage was over in your mind? <p>snl... I don't deal in justifications, is a nonsensical concept, everyone of us does what we do cause we want to, no one needs justification...it is just a manipulative game people play with each other as they jockey for moral position.... I don't need any justifiation, I did what I did, good or bad is irrelevant, it is done...what I need is to understand why, and what to do about it...likewise the bs needs to do the same, and dwelling on pain and such interferes with that process...but it is an excellent manipulative tool... I value my post-affair behaviour as normal, I quickly (even before discover) concluded an affair must end, no matter whether it continues on in the future under other acceptable circumstances...it has to end as an affair, one cannot craft a stable relationship on an affair, there has to be a break....you have to let that person go, and they you....otherwise you have serious internal issues. That does not mean you restore the marriage, but IMO the proper thing to do is go back to the marriage take your lumps, and engage in reasonable efforts to restore your bs dignity. This requires telling the truth, accepting some anger, and a good faith effort at looking at the marriage...and that is all, the price has been paid....you do not owe yourself to anyone including a spouse, nor is endless punishment ok. I did all this, and am comfortable I have behaved in a responsible manner.<p>rwd...How about the op? She had an affair with a legally married man? How do/can you value that behavior?<p>snl...I anlayzed her just like I do myself, my w, and everyone else, and I looked at her very very hard, I am not a capricious man, I am very methodical, and I question everything, rules mean nothing to me just cause they are rules (they have to make sense, and rules always have exceptions)...the fact that she broke a rule is significant, but it is why she broke the rule that interests me, I am confident I understand why, but was not allowed enough interactive time to be certain, so am not positive....but anymore discussion re the ow is inappropriate to this forum, so I will say no more, and this is more than I have said in 1600 posts, so do not ask again plz.<p>rwd...On your last post, you critize us bs for for moving on, yet earlier we're just supposed to sit back and accept the divorce. Which is it? Are we supposed to morn out loss forever or not look at it like a loss? <p>snl...It is not a loss, and that is how it should be looked at IMO, it is an opportunity, life has opened up a new path...whatever the old marriage was, is gone as soon as one partner no longer wants it, it only actually "exists" moment to moment as a reflection of 2 peoples psychological interaction... there is not such "thing" as a marriage, there is nothing real to lose...it is all perception, mother nature (so to speak) will not notice any difference in you. As for sitting back and accepting, no, there is a time, a season for "fighting" for understanding of what you have...but once that is clarified, then yes, you do accept, to do anything else is not good mental health, and hurts you, so why would you choose bitterness, cynicism, hate, etc.. and not make yourself take action that will counteract the situational depression...which is where you will end up if you focus on negative feelings. We have the means and knowledge to move beyone emotional trauma, I do not understand why we stay stuck, but I suspect it has a lot to do with maipulation...even a divorced bs by remaining woe is me, is forcing a ws to respond to that...whether they ignore them, or feel guilty, whatever, there is still a response, and not a healthy one, I suspect that is the primary reason bs have negative outcomes, it is the strategy (and if you don't think everything we do is not about strategy, even all my analytical style, then read some psyche books) they adopt to get their needs met, via sympathy and guilt.... I am a ruthlessy pragmatic person rw, I detest sympathy given to me, that is why you see the positions I take, it is a debilitating response, don't give me a fish, TEACH me to fish....but that is me....it is also why I do not fit well with highly emotional people (like many here)...I can give a little sympathy, and it is ok, but I feel like I am hurting someone more by doing that, they encouraging them to use their brains to recover from emotional trauma. Since I am not a therapist, and this is an open forum of all ideas, I speak only to those who are helped, and I wish those who are stressed by me would ignore me, but they don't they read my stuff and get upset, and complain, and make accusations, and call you names, etc, etc, etc,.....just more manipulation....drives us analytical types nuts, when will people ever take full responsibility for themselves. Sorry, that was a bit of a rant...thanks for listening.

SnL,<p>Say ... you must know, as you, I am still going thru stuff and my feelings color my responses to you. I don't mean to hurt you, or make your trials any harder than they are. I do feel empathy for you, .. and for Thinker. <p>I feel very strongly that entering into an A was a choice my H made AGAIN, knowing how it would devistate me. He knew the consequences and the effects yet chose to do it anyway. His betrayal, unlike the first time, was an attempt to destroy me. I can't see it any other way. He was so selfish, and so disrespectful by doing it this second time, that it's going to take a lot more to heal than what I think the average bear first timer.<p>My point is, I probably shouldn't be posting to you. I feel my points ARE valid, but I also feel I may be over the top with "how" I respond, and the words I use. They are fraught with anger, and that just simply isn't the real me. <p>So, I'll try my best to be more compassionate, but if you want to volley posts with me, please be warned, okay?<p>Lv,
Jo

jo, as you know my replies are somewhat generic, especially as the scope widens, I hope I indicated (a couple times) your H does not qualify IMO, I am talking about normal decent people, who just have problems, your H is way over the top, and I wouldn't give him the time of day....some people are for wont of a better word...evil...and subjecting you to multiple affairs, oc and such is incomprehensible, I probably would have done serious bodily injury to him, I think he preyed on you...you have every right to that kind of pain, and taking time to recover from that black hole...I was hesitant to respond to this stuff with you, but I don't want to baby you either, but treat you with respect and dignity that you can hold your own..does that make any sense? I have absolutely no problem with any of your responses, you have done well under your own personal circumstances with this touchy subject....it would even been ok had you chewed me out, I would understand....I just hope some of this, in my own way, you find helpful....cause regardless of the rerasons, bitterness, hate, etc. hurt the person feeling it much more than the object of it....and you have suffered enough.

I guess the biggest problem I'm having today is that when I look aback at my relationship with my ex I am confused at it's ending. <p>I guess I know where/when I "doomed" it and that eventually when I RE-figured out she's all I wanted it was too late (from here perspective)<p>It's just when you look at it I don't understand why she wouldn't take me back. It is just so confusing. The only way it makes sense to me is that she is carrying some major guilt/baggage or something. <p>I guess I still can't believe after all we went through she doesn't want to "come home".<p>I would love to be friends with her at some point, but it's doubtful it will be in the near future. I don't think I could handle meeting her new signif other.<p>It is awful hwo two people who share so much and truly loved each other so much can end in deceipt and cruelty - so awful!