Hi there Bill!<p>I've self groveled (to myself) for a couple of days regarding this thread. I was torn...tell/don't tell. <p>The more I searched for answers I came across "Parental Alienation Syndrom" also refered to as PAS.<p>Here are many links:<p>http://www.ukmm.org.uk/links/paslinks.htm<p>I believe if the intent of being honest is to hurt the childs relationship with the other parent, telling is wrong. Kids are "with it" more than we give them credit for. This subject is very age sensitive. Just like all the hard questions in life, give them honest information to satisfy their curiousity. No more, no less. <p>One other thing Bill, I don't think you were hurt by not "knowing" about your dad sooner, I think you were hurt because you got drug into PAS situation, which was out of your control.

If I understood Bill correctly, he was an adult when he was told about his father's affairs - I have never before heard of anyone trying to apply PAS to adults!<p>Let us assume that the WS committed ANY other crime, and that was the cause of the divorce. Would anyone claim that that information should be hidden from the children? Would you hide the fact that the parent was in jail? <p>Why would anyone want their children to love them if they were just loving an illusion? I want my children to love me for who I am, not for some idealized version of me. If the only way I could ensure that my kids would love me would be by hiding parts of my life, then I would prefer that they not love me at all. What kind of relationship would that be? What kind of life would that be, always walking around in fear that your kids would find out your secret? How could you ever feel close to your children? Having to hide such secrets would absolutely destroy any possibility of the WS having a close relationship with their children.<p>Similar excuses used to be given for hiding the fact that children were adopted, often with disasterous results. <p>Honesty is ALWAYS the best policy.

ALWAYS.<p>Age-appropriate, of course.

Sorry, I've been real busy today and haven't had much time to think about the responses. I am glad to see so many people joining in with their opinions. I hope this causes others to think as much about this as I am.<p>Nellie1 - I have a question for you. Is adultry a crime in your state? Is it in my state? Honestly, I don't know. Your continueing reference to commiting any other crime doesn't quite sink in with me. All the other crimes you have mentioned are crimes against the laws of the land. Adultry, in my opinion, is a crime against God's law. A crime of morality. For a person with no morals, it isn't a crime.<p>My girls and I are very active in our church. Yes the know that adultry is wrong, Mr. Clinton actually helped out on that one. Further they see one parent living by example in me. They see their mother living a different way. So do I try to drill it into their head every day what a bad person and bad life style she has chosen?<p>There's a little food for thought.

Yes, adultery is a crime in my state, as it should be. <p>I can't imagine why you would discuss the subject every day, or every month - the topic for this thread was whether to tell the children in the first place, not whether to continue to beat a dead horse.

I tell my children of their mother’s other love half-way through our marriage. I tell them all I know about her current relationship that effectively destructed their family. I tell them that their mom isn’t there to take them to school because she’ with him. I tell them that a lot of the extra time they are getting with me is because she’s with him. I tell them of the dirty underhanded games she played during the divorce.
No. You tell them mom fell in love with someone else and divorced you.<p>There is no need to go into detail. You should NOT tell the kid show terrible she was but it is okay to tell them what she did is wrong. Sort of like when children do something wrong, you don't call them stupid, you explain what they did was wrong.<p>Kids aren't stupid. They already know of the "dirty underhanded games" and why she isn't around for them.<p>So do I try to drill it into their head every day what a bad person and bad life style she has chosen?
You don't cut her down. If the subject comes up (watching a movie, the news or wherever) then you can explain it is wrong.

LH,<p>I agree that the BS doesn't need to tell the children. Unless the child ask directly, "Did mom/dad cheat?", then they need to keep it short. There's no lie on the parents part, if they just say, "Spouse and I had problems we couldn't work out."<p>There's usually more to a marriage break up than another person. Not always, but often there's marital problems way before someone entered the picture. Yes, they shouldn't have allowed someone to enter the picture and they made things worse but it was just a portion of the marriage break up.<p>Also, let's say a spouse says, "Dad/Mom fell in love with someone else, or worse goes into detail..." Then the child is angry at the WS and the WS knows the child is angry and mad at him/her. <p>The WS doesn't want this so, he goes to the child and tells the child everything the BS did to drive him to cheating (his point of view of course). Then the child becomes confused because each parent has set up the idea that the child needs to blame someone for the break up of their marriage. <p>We do not need to teach our children for everything bad that happens there has to be a person to blame and hate. This is where our children learn about the "blame game" from us.<p>Children are smart, as they mature they will figure out on their own what parent has their head on straight. If you keep the child out of the middle then they will have more respect for you than if you tell them all the gorey details.<p>Here's something that happened between me and my son. <p>My stbx and I both agreed to not put them in the middle. (Well of course he agreed, then he'd have to tell them he physically abused me).<p>Anyway, at one point he decided to put them in the middle by telling them that I would call the cops if he came in the driveway to pick them up. First, this was not even true, but then my son was so upset by this he came to me and said, "Why did you do this?" I said, "I don't want to put you guys in the middle?" He said, "I want to be in the middle, please tell me." So I said, "Okay, but I really didn't want you involved in this, and I started telling them how dad came over on a day he knew we were all gone and I found him in the back yard." His dad had already told son of excuses as to why he was here on the property. So son started saying but dad says he was here because he wanted some tools out of garage. I explained to him the garage is in the front, then why was dad in the back, and why was dad calling me and on the phone with me and not telling me he was in my backyard. I could see my son's confusion, and he said, "Maybe I don't want to know all this afterall."<p>Now when his dad starts to tell him something about me, my son says, "Dad I don't want to be in the middle, please don't tell me these things." <p>It's sad because all of that could have been avoided. My child did not need to get in the middle. <p>The example is exactly what happens, one parents blames the other for something, then the other parent decides to tell gorey details about the marriage and their side, and then back and forth and the child is put in the middle...Where does the blame stop then...it often esculates.<p>My spouse decided to tell the children on me for threatening to call the cops. He wanted to punish me. This hurt and confused my child.<p>I think often the main reason the parent tells the children is because they want to punish the spouse. They want the spouse to see what they have done, but this only punishes the children. Oh yea, a parent can come up with all kinds of excuses to tell them, but the bottom line is trying to "punish the other person". It makes the children angry and confused, and it will often back fire with the betrayed spouse. <p>Keep the children out of this.<p>ANNA

LH,<p>One more quick point. Some people think if you don't tell the kids "all" then some how you are not truthful. Keeping them out of your ex's relationship is not lying to them, it's just keeping it between the two of you where it's belongs.<p>I think it's a good thing to teach children they don't have to lie as they get older, they should be allowed privacy in their lives and should be allowed to say, "That's personal" with others.<p>As for my own children, I told them this, "I am being honest with you by saying it's between me and dad only." <p>At first they wanted to try to blame someone or something, and I had to tell them several times it is between me and their dad. As time goes by though I see how they just want to love us both unconditionally and they are starting to understand more and more why I keep it private. They have said to both my stbx and I "We want to stay out of it." <p>I am also sure the "backyard" incident gave a great example to them as to why we keep them out of it.<p>Just like you, LH, I am glad of this choice. My children feel loved by both parents and they are not angry or bitter with us.<p>ANNA

I have a question....<p>When dad and OW constantly try to sabotage and undermine the parenting of teens....and offer an open doorand refuge to any kid when the kid is being contrary?<p>A place where usage of alcohol and drugs by the teens and the OW is condoned, where there are no boundaries...should one keep quiet?<p>Should one keep quiet when the kids are used as messengers as WS will not talk to me re kids(and when I have contacted him he turns everything and lies to kids or undermines all the parenting.) If I do not give in to his demands, he lies to his lawyer and states that I was hostile and rude (I am not...simply businesslike with firm boundaries)<p>Should one simply allow the lies to continue...about present behaviour?
Should one continue to make excuses why he is not involved in any parenting, simply insists on his visitation (which I have never ever played with) regardless of what the children actually want. They are teens and cannot tell him that they perhaps do not want to come over and play second or thrid fiddle to OW and her child.
If they say no to him , somehow or other it is my fault.<p>So while the children should not know all the facts, and this is age dependant, should one simply allow the WS to attempt to destroy the children through undermining of all parenting boundaries, attempts to alienate the children from me by letting them know that "your mom is crazy"<p>He has waged warfare at me using the ONLY means possible, which is our children.<p>Should I allow this?<p>I think not...the kids should know and need to kow that all this behaviour is just plain unacceptable. They should know and I have constantly reinforced that their father loves and cares about them, but he is not now capable of offering them the parenting they need.
Unfortunately they have also learnt that his love for them is portrayed as conditional (if you see me when I want , I will be nice to you, but if you express independent thought, I will discard you.....which he has...)<p>After 3 years separated, my kids are a mess and this will continue until the day they are able to tell him that they love him, he is their only father, but a,b or c is unacceptable.<p>At the same time he believes that love is measurable....so if they love me,they cannot love him and vica versa....
And I have explained to my children that love is immeasurable and if one is angry , it does not mean one loves someone less...<p>
Actually I have told my kids that the word "love" is nothing,unless followed by appropriate behaviour. In actions that show that one cares about someone. If one loves someone else, one usually behaves in a caring way. Given that we are human, we do make mistakes, but people are not possessions to be discarded at will.<p>This is kind of off topic, but should one keep quiet in dealing with all this? I think not<p>Should one keep quiet when son is told he has to leave WS/OW house by a certain date,no matter his behaviour, but WS is choosing kid over OW?<p>How long can they be conned?

It is not to place the blame on the other person, it is to raise your children in a way that teaches them how to act responsibly when they are adults.<p>LH,
My curiosity lies in knowing what possible positive can come from me telling them about their mom’s infidelity?
It lets them know what the cause of the marriage falling apart was. It helps them to deal with the breakup better. It lets them know it was no their fault. Simply saying it is between us (the parents) does NOT do anything to give them anything to deal with.<p>Anna,
My stbx and I both agreed to not put them in the middle. (Well of course he agreed, then he'd have to tell them he physically abused me).
But physical abuse IS something the children should be told about. It reinforces the fact that in no way is it acceptable. If your h is getting counseling, then it shows the kids that problems happen and you need to deal with them. If your h is NOT getting counseling, do you want him around the kids?<p>There's no lie on the parents part, if they just say, "Spouse and I had problems we couldn't work out."
So if you can't decide on which restaurant to go to, it is okay to divorce???<p>Simply saying "we had differences" teaches them it is okay to divorce just because they don't agree with the other spouse on issues.
By letting them know what happened (infidelity and the ws not willing to end it) teaches them actions have consequences.

I think Chris' response was great. <p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>There's no lie on the parents part, if they just say, "Spouse and I had problems we couldn't work out."<hr></blockquote><p>That is absolutely a lie. There are no problems that can not be worked out if both parties are willing. <p>One of my kids angrily accused me of keeping my knowledge of my H's affair secret for six weeks after my H left, until my H introduced the kids to the OW (this was not actually the case, since I did not know either, although I suspected, and my H denied). Most people, children included, do not want to be treated like mushrooms.