JL,<p>"They aren't your friends, that much is truely sure, for you clearly view them with great distain."<p>Sure they are. They are people first, and men second. If they decide to act in a b*tthead way that I associate with b*tthead men, then I tell them so. Of course, I have female friends that also tend to follow some popular female stereotypes too, which is fine. I just don't go to them for career advice or help in balancing work and a personal life. <p>"I will say this in the community I live in men are very active volunteers for the school reading programs. Why? They own their own companies."
That's great, but there are volunteer projects on weekends too. Great thing to do with the whole family, as a matter of fact. <p>"AFter all they are cheating just as much as men or will very soon reach that august level of parity."
If that's true, then at least we can finally toss out that junk about cheating being some kind of male biological imperitive to spread their seed. Just fine with me. <p>Kayla,<p>"If you fail to see that, then it is definitely best that you stay single, because you will never be able to participate fully in a partnership that requires some sacrifice of power on your part."<p>Well, once again, we see presented here the idea that women must be dependent and needy in order to have a relationship. Anything other than some parasitic attachment to some man constitutes failure to sacrifice power. Tell me, what is the man asked to sacrifice? He's got the job, he gets a family, someone to take care of them. Sounds pretty cushy to me. <p>Oh, they have to work?! Wow, I've been doing that all my life. Big deal.<p>[ April 15, 2002: Message edited by: TheStudent ]</p>

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by TheStudent:
<strong>Well, once again, we see presented here the idea that women must be dependent and needy in order to have a relationship. Anything other than some parasitic attachment to some man constitutes failure to sacrifice power. Tell me, what is the man asked to sacrifice? Not a whole hell of alot most of the time. Like I said, it is no hardship to work for a living. I've worked all my life--and some pretty crappy jobs at that. Not as crappy as some, for sure, but I would if I had to in order to take care of myself.</strong><hr></blockquote><p>STUDENT: Get this Straight: Where in "Partnership" does it mean that the man makes all the sacrifices - financial, emotional and otherwise, and the woman gets to lord it over him that it's her body carrying the baby so she makes all the choices??? <p>Partnership is a two-way melding of power. The man doesn't release all of his to become subservient to her superior genetic design any more than she should live under TALIBAN rule!<p>I grew up in a fourth generation matriarchy. It is no better than a patriarchy. Both are imbalances of power and poor excuses for marriages. I've lived through what you advocate and it's #$&##! But there's no getting through to you. There's no space in your brain for "new" information that might require you to shift your position to a more accurate "balance"!<p>You advocate a swing of the pendulum that has already proven to create more pain for children than the other extreme of women being property. Either extreme is WRONG. Both extremes ignore the rights and sensitities and devalues life itself - the life of the woman and the life of the child. To me, neither is subserviant - the woman or the child. It's not an either or solution. We need both!

Kayla,<p>all I've ever advocated is that women be self-reliant. Why that is so annoying to you and others is beyond me. <p>The fact that women choose abortion when faced with an unplanned pregnancy in order to remain self-reliant, well, seems to be pretty popular. Traditional methods to dissuade women from choosing abortion have not worked, and part of the reasons for that, IMO, is based on the fact that women do not want to be dependent on men--along with a whole host of other reasons. I don't believe most women get abortions simply out of paranoia or selfishness. I think there are many women who would love to believe that a man would be there for them, but they don't see it happening. <p>Even if you completely rule out gender from the decision to have an abortion, it still boils down to one thing...women have a MUCH harder time pursing a career and having a family than men do. Other countries do a much better job allowing BOTH men and women to blend work and family responsibilities than we do in the U.S. If you read between the lines, you will notice that I advocate that BOTH parents have more flexibility in that respect. So, no, I don't believe that women should be financially dependent upon a man to have a family, and when less of them feel like they need to be, then maybe you will see fewer abortions happening.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by TheStudent:
<strong>Kayla,<p>all I've ever advocated is that women be self-reliant. Why that is so annoying to you and others is beyond me.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
You have not just advocated self-reliance. You have advocated eliminating men from the family equation and that is annoying to me and to any rational person who realizes that a child needs BOTH parents and that BOTH parents should have a say in the pregnancy.<p>It is sophistry for you to claim that you are only advocating self-reliance when the thread that this issue came up on had nothing to do with self-reliance. Amazing how you talk about self-reliance when you claim that this was the reason this woman decided to have an abortion. None of us know that - not you, not even her husband - and I doubt she does, unless the baby was actually the result of an affair - which is more likely by her behavior before and after the fact. <p>I can believe self reliance was YOUR issue and YOUR ISSUE ALONE. Not every abortion is based on such logic. Not every woman shares your issues.<p>I'll be forever grateful that life has taught me that everyone has disadvantages of some sort or another. I'm here to succeed because of the growth opportunities of those disadvantages. I'm self-sufficient. I have learned that I can choose to be in a partnership relationship even though I could go it alone. Maybe that's why I don't fear men like you do.

kayla,<p>"You have advocated eliminating men from the family equation..."<p>Nope. Read again. I said "I refuse to be financially or domestically DEPENDENT on a man in order to have a family". <p>Yes, we have digressed away from the main topic. You're right. I don't know why this particular woman chose to have an abortion. However, myself and a few other women I know who have had abortions pretty much did it for the same reasons. Besides abortion, I take great interest in women's issues. MOST of the time, the woman is not in a position to take care of it, or they perceive that having a baby would endanger their ability to be self-reliant via lowered educational or job opportunities, and/or the men who fathered them are unreliable--at best. Often, many of these factors coexist. <p>I think it is interesting that people jump on the bandwagon that her baby must be from another man. There are plenty of attempts here to demonize her. On the other hand, if it were from another man, then *I* would say she made the best decision. Men like K, who would help raise the OM's child as his own, are pretty much one in a million. <p>Other than that, we keep running around in circles about the abortion issue. For some reason, you consider a man to have some entitlement over a woman's body. The time to POJA pregnancy is before she gets pregnant. A man can't force a woman to bear a child without making her a slave. Lots of people have tried intimidation and guilt. Obviously, THAT hasn't worked. If you assume that women who are facing an unplanned pregnancy aren't all paranoid and selfish (which I don't), then people who are interested in lowering abortion statistics need to spend more time changing the social environment in which women exist. But, that's too hard, I guess. <p>I feel fortunate that I don't have to wear rose colored glasses and paint a happy picture of the world in order to feel useful. I'm more interested in solving problems than glossing things over in order to maintain a certain image of myself or make people like me.

I couldn't help but add my two cents. I worked for years promoting women to be self-sufficient. What I have learned is that some people don't want to be self-sufficient...both men and women. <p>I consider myself self-sufficient. I am educated, make decent money, own my own home...no it wasn't passed on to me from the divorce; I bought it on my own. I am raising two boys alone and to be honest, it is harder than anything I have ever done. I am not a man. I cannot relate to how a 16 year old boy feels or why he does what he does. Not having a father effects them. Their father does not bother with them...he does not take advantage of his visitation rights and it breaks my kid's hearts. We are not living in poverty...I am good to my children, but I'm not a man and whether anyone wants to admit it or not, children need a mom and a dad. Divorce is an ugly fact of life, but it doesn't change the fact that kids need both parents. Sure, a man can raise children alone and so can a woman, but it is the child who misses out. To say that men are not nurturing is bias. Having a uterus does not make you nurturing. Ask any child who doesn't have a dad or a mom, if they give a hoot about whether the custodian parent is self-sufficient. Everyone should be able to take care of themselves, but when you decide to have a family, you don't plan on divorcing. If marriage is a partnership, so should parenting. Money is important, but I can tell you first hand, raising a child alone is hard. Raising kids is hard under the best of circumstance...throw in a divorce and two teenage boys and it is mind bogling.

TS,<p>You said something that I thought interesting. <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> For some reason, you consider a man to have some entitlement over a woman's body.<hr></blockquote><p>Perhaps he does, in that he will be required to pay and help raise this child for at least 18 years. And don't give me, men can abandon them, crap. So can women and there are many men on this board who's W's have done just that.<p>But, the thing I am curious about is: Does the infant have any entitlement over a woman's body in your universe?<p>Also interesting as it may seem, the data strongly suggests that the women that can least afford to have children because of the father being not supportive or very low economic situations have abortions far less than middle and upper class women. It ain't about self-reliance dear, it may be for you but it isn't for many.<p>Heck, I don't know what we are discussing here. I really don't want to discuss the moral issues of abortion. What torqued me was simply that TS cannot see why a man might be deeply affected by a W aborting the life of a child he helped conceive.<p>I will say this TS. A woman's body is a marvel, it was designed to produce children. Doing what it was designed for is in most cases not a hugh sacrifice. Raising the product of that design often does take a hugh sacrifice. At that point both the male and female are supposed to make that sacrifice, so it stands to reason that some input on the part of the male is warrented.<p>I realize you don't view men in that light, and clearly neither does Follower's W. I think your views will and have led you to great pain, hence my constant chirping at you about them.<p>But, no one runs their life like I would run it for them. <p>God Bless,<p>JL

JL,<p>"I think your views will and have led you to great pain..."<p>Oh, there is no doubt about that. But that doesn't mean I'm wrong. My problem is that I don't think that having a job, doing the dishes or changing a diaper now and then constitutes a partnership. Yea, my standards are high. I expect him to do for me what I do for him. Otherwise he is a liability and a waste of my time. I don't need more work. <p>Anyway, the time for me to worry about those things ended long ago. I'm not getting married again just to get divorced again. I just hope more women don't put themselves into positions where they are left destitute and desperate because of divorce. Even if they aren't destitute, I still hate to see a woman squander her job skills HOPING she will not end up divorced...especially considering the enormous divorce rate in our country. And you know, we wouldn't even be having these discussions if more men took an active role in taking care of their children. <p>I guess lots of women just take whatever they can get, or they don't know any better. Supply and demand, as you've so often pointed out. However, I think the pendulum has started to swing the other way. I've met quite a few never-married men my age (37) who don't have children and are anxious to settle down now and have families. Seems that women are not crashing down their doors anymore. Their dreams of having the stay-at-home wife while they go conquer the business world hasn't come to pass...and I don't feel sorry for them. Then again, there are always the Bill Gates and Warren Beatty's out there who wait till they are in their 40's or 50's and find younger women to marry and have children. Must be nice. I suppose that's another area women could stand to make some headway in, and a few have. <p>"Does the infant have any entitlement over a woman's body in your universe?"
Ah well. That's the million dollar question, isn't it? I would say no, if it can't live outside of its' mother's body.<p>[ April 16, 2002: Message edited by: TheStudent ]</p>

JL,<p>one more thing...I respect you a great deal. Always have. You wanna know why some of your lectures don't sink in with me? Because, as a man (a PhD at that, like I will be soon), with a stay-at-home wife I don't think you are qualified to lecture me. I have no doubt in my mind whatsoever that, had I been born a man, I'd be just like you--with all the benefits that entails. <p>I would trade places with you any day of the week, mister. That goes for just about any other guy out there. I would love to have my intellect and money-making ability be exalted to the degree yours has. I would love to have it qualify me to have a wonderful person stay at home to take care of my children like many of my male co-workers enjoy. But, since I was born female, I am the one who is supposed to make the big sacrifices. I am the one who is supposed to choose--family vs. career and if I won't choose, then I must do it alone. Fine. Since men get all the other perks, I can't say I feel too sorry for them if their significant other chooses an abortion. Too bad. When a significant number of men start making the sacrifices women make to have a family, maybe I'll lighten up.

Sorry TS,<p>That is another one of those things that isn't "fair". A healthy male can father a child until near death, a woman has a finite time. That is why "older" men can marry younger women and it doesn't often go the other way around.<p>We won't even talk about why many men do leave: lack of sex again older women don't seem to hang in there. <p>Point is that very few divorces are about whether men change diapers or not. If that was the reason then the solution would be simple. The divorces are because MEN and WOMEN don't take the time to meet each others needs. Now if the needs is for the H to change diapers and he doesn't then I agree with you.<p>Recall in most cases the marriage occurs in situations where both agree for the most part how the marriage will divide labor. The problem is that both men and women change their minds, don't talk to their mate and often endup cheating but if not that at least depressed about the marriage.<p>Must go. I am glad you never felt regret for your decision. I am sorry that you continue to think that your experiences represent the norm in men. But, I do know this: Women are defenseless idiots that are totally under the power of their H. Isn't true now and never was true. So whatever the social situation is, it is what many women want.<p>God Bless,<p>JL

{{{{{TS}}}}},<p>...I respect you a great deal (it starts off good)<p>...like I will be soon..
...I don't think you are qualified...
...I have no doubt... had I been born a man...
I'd be just like...
I would trade places....
I would love to have my intellect...
I would love to have it qualify me...<p>But, since I was born female...
...I am the one who is supposed to make the big sacrifices.
I am the one who is supposed to choose--family vs. career
... then I must do it alone.<p>I can't say I feel too sorry...
...maybe I'll lighten up....<p>The last time I saw such an I-centric writing... and not just in your last reply...
...it was when reading the "what about me" letter my xW wrote to her affair-encouraging friends... looking for approval...<p>Leading a life focusing on self...
...it's not what Plan A... is about... Plan A...make self better through placing other's ahead of you.
...it's not what Plan B... is about... Plan B... respects the chance that the other person will find the courage to turn around... (and should not be reason to LB)...<p>Happiness is fleeting... when it is all built on "me"...
...sooner or later... you'll disappoint yourself...
...sooner or later... you won't be making the same $$$...
...sooner or later... your health will fail...
...sooner or later... your mind will go...
...sooner or later... your age will be an issue... in staying "productive" (by the world's measure)...
...sooner or later... all you'll have left are the relationships... you've cultivated (or not cultivated)<p>Encouraging JOY... can lead to a life... that goes beyond happiness...<p>JOY is making your priorities line up differently...
1. J - ...easy to figure out for christians
2. O - ...Other's next.... spouse... children... parents... firends... strangers....
3. Y - ...Yourself (not to the exclusion of J or O)... in humbleness<p>You may take this to be "preachy"...
...I offer it to you as a thought provoking excercise...<p>Much love to you TS...
...I really do mean it too...<p> [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Jim/NSR

NSR,<p>Happiness is fleeting... when it is all built on "me"...
...sooner or later... you'll disappoint yourself...
Already have.<p>...sooner or later... you won't be making the same $$$...
Making about $20,000K a yr now. Not much. Have a pretty decent chunk saved away, and intend to save more after graduation. Men are kinda like cars--they are not an investment and half of them will fail within 10 yrs. Better to place my bets on my own skills. <p>...sooner or later... your health will fail...
Thankfully, not yet. <p>...sooner or later... your mind will go...
Feeling it slipping away everyday<p>...sooner or later... your age will be an issue... in staying "productive" (by the world's measure)...
My age is already an issue--mostly because I wasted 10 yrs of my life supporting my ex's goals instead of pursuing my own. <p>...sooner or later... all you'll have left are the relationships... you've cultivated (or not cultivated)
My friends and family are one of my top priorities, but they can't be my only priority. Our culture expects women to sacrifice themselves for others continually to the exclusion of their own needs. Anything less than total devotion and willingness to be absolutely dependent upon a man, and she is considered selfish. Let her take the smallest step in the direction of self-actualization or towards her own goals, then she is demonized at worst or at best, given dire warnings like yours about what a lonely, wasted life she will have. If a man does his 50%, he's placed on pedestal. Heaps of praise are showered upon him for holding a job and "helping" with those other yucky things like cooking, laundry, etc. Sure must be nice.<p>Let me ask you a few questions....<p>What would you be willing to give up in order to have a committed relationship? Your name? Your career? Your ability to take care of yourself? If you are christian, would you hand over your ability to make decisions to your spouse on whatever they deemed appropriate? No POJA.<p>What would you be willing to give up to have children? Your life and health? Would you have second thoughts about having children if you knew that many employers would not hire you, promote you, or give you interesting work? If you knew that you would be struggling for quite a long time if you turned out to be in that unfortunate 50% that ended up divorced? <p>If you flinched on ANY of these questions, then sorry, you're not qualified to lecture me or any other woman about their life choices. That goes for you too JL.<p>[ April 17, 2002: Message edited by: TheStudent ]</p>

JL,<p>You don't know what the norm is anymore than I would. However, being a female engineer, I have worked around 100's of men in my 20 years of working and have had the opportunity to observe the lifestyles of many, many of them. The slice of the male population pie that have made up my experiences go far beyond most women's--unless they study social science for a living. You could say that I've been forced to study my co-workers in great detail in order to be successful in my field. That is how it goes when you are a minority in anything. So, don't underestimate my observations. They might just be right. Still, male engineers and technical types only make up a small cross-section of the total male population. I'll bet, however, that they aren't a bad sampling of most white-collar professional men. When I've had the opportunity to observe other professional men (ie professors, lawyers, doctors, etc) I see many of the same characteristics.<p>oh, one more thing...the existence of a societal trend does not constitute agreement by those in it. The wheels of change move very slowly when you are dealing with behemouth governments and/or corporations that are in a position to enforce the status quo. You know, even without children, I've faced job discrimination simply because I MIGHT have children. That is one thing I'm looking forward to after I graduate. Being unmarried, without children, and 37-38 yrs old will probably work in my favor. Sad, but true. I don't think that things are the way they are because women want them that way. They just haven't been in a position to do much to change things. Now they are, and things are finally starting to change.<p>[ April 17, 2002: Message edited by: TheStudent ]</p>

TS,<p>We are posting in a leapfrog manner. So this repsonse is probably a post or two behind yours.<p>You said <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>I would trade places with you any day of the week, mister. That goes for just about any other guy out there.<hr></blockquote> <p>Well you could do worse. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] But you don't need to have a gender operation to be in my place. If you ever stopped and looked you would realize that you could have an even better life than mine. As for most guys, you may work with them but you don't drink with them nor do you hear how they feel about themselves or their lives.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>I would love to have my intellect and money-making ability be exalted to the degree yours has. <hr></blockquote><p>So would I! When does it start? I ready for that, bring it on. TS, in my entire life neither my W nor my children have ever exalted my intellect or my money making ability. Mostly, I just hear about all of the chores I need to accomplish or who I need to take where when I get home. EXALTATION???? And frankly, of all of the people in the world they are the ones I would like to hear a "thank you" from. Interesting, isn't it? <p>TS, the money will come to you if you are good, pure and simple. You will no doubt recieve professional awards, you have already received some scholastic awards. Are you happy? It doesn't sound like it. <p>Will you be happy? No, I don't think you will. Why? Because the people you really need to hear from are those close to you. You may or may not have someone like that in your life as you grow and move on, but if you do, it will mean more to you that THEY THINK YOU ARE GOOD. I would bet that it would make your day, if you exH came up and told you how impressed he is with what you have accomplished. Your focus is wrong TS. Trust me on that.<p>You may be one of those rare people that doesn't need other people around them, and if so you won't need what I am talking about. If you aren't then please pay attention. You are young yet. If you work for as long as you have been alive, you will only be 72. Don't waste it on bitterness or envy.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>I would love to have it qualify me to have a wonderful person stay at home to take care of my children like many of my male co-workers enjoy. But, since I was born female, I am the one who is supposed to make the big sacrifices. I am the one who is supposed to choose--family vs. career and if I won't choose, then I must do it alone. Fine.<hr></blockquote><p>Interesting you think men get all of the perks. I have one hugh advantage over you as a male. I got
what I call "The Speech" from my father when I was about 13. He told me very simply. "Son, you are going to have to work the rest of your life. There will be no options, your choice of mates will be determined by how successful you are, the future of your children will be determined by how well you work. Pick something you will want or like to do, and go do it: work long and hard at it. You have no choices other than that."<p>Most boys my age got a similar speech from their fathers. Interestingly, when my W and I married the choice of her working or not was hers. I told her I would support either decision. The choice of having children was hers. I sort of wanted children, but I realized I also had other goals. The choice was hers and she made it. I have done my best to be a father, but it does cost time, money, and a great deal of anxiety. My W now works part time and can come and go as she pleases. Now who has the choices????? <p>From my end of the telescope her life isn't too bad either. Which has it better, I truely cannot say. My major goal in life is that she be happy is that so odd?<p>
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Since men get all the other perks, I can't say I feel too sorry for them if their significant other chooses an abortion. Too bad. When a significant number of men start making the sacrifices women make to have a family, maybe I'll lighten up. <hr></blockquote><p>First, having children is not a sacrifice, that is what women were designed for. I don't feel sorry for women in that situation. As for sacrifices, talk to some guy at the bottom of a coal mine working to make ends meet for his family. TS, I have dug ditches, worked contruction, moved funiture, worked short order resturants, bussed tables, been in the military, and none of those jobs were fun. They were a way to make money pure and simple. I would have much rather been playing golf, or doing what I do now. But those were sacrifices I made and so do most men.<p>Now you will respond well women are working to. Yup, you (women) wanted back into the work force you got it. Now, that is considered a sacrifice as well. TS, most people don't have careers, they have JOBS. It is a sacrifice to go to a JOB no matter your gender. So do me a hugh favor, knock off the "woe is me, and the woe is womanhood stuff". You got choices, you have options, use them wisely and in a way that makes you happy.<p>But, understand this, the feelings of losing a child should not be and is not conditional on gender. If you think that men need to do more dishes in order to have the "RIGHT" to feel the loss, you are a very very sick woman.<p>TS, I will say what I have been saying to you for many years now. Quit being jealous, and look at the many blessings you have. Look at the future and the options you have and make the best of them. Your enemy is not men or how they function in society, your main enemy is yourself. I can tell you that you will not have a very happy, or fullfilling life if you go around being jealous of half the people on this planet.<p>God Bless,<p>JL

Wow JL so having children is what women were desgined for! Thanks for clearing that up for me! <p> How about those women who can't have children or who chose to remain childfree? So a women is basically worthless if she is not reproducing; doing what she was designed for? <p>I don't know if you realize how sexist, demeaning and insulting that comes across? But then maybe that is how men of your generation look at things?<p>[ April 17, 2002: Message edited by: KalGrl ]</p>

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by KalGrl:
Wow JL so having children is what women were desgined for! Thanks for clearing that up for me! <p> How about those women who can't have children or who chose to remain childfree? So a women is basically worthless if she is not reproducing; doing what she was designed for?<hr></blockquote><p>Ughhh!<p>RESILIENT = Childless (non-reproducing human)<p>I have had a "Career" my entire work life while I supported, at times financially but in every sense of the word, my H's Dreams/Career (musician). We, H and I, planned on having children when we were 35, it is then he betrayed me and made babies with 2 OW. Eight (8) years later he then leaves me for one of those women so he can have his family (children). <p>I certainly hope no one here considers a female who is childless worthless. I never planned on being childless. I expected I'd always have a family and children of my own, never once did I doubt that would happen. <p>Jo<p>[ April 17, 2002: Message edited by: Resilient ]</p>

I can't help but comment on the Student's sexist comments about women and men. Not all men are dirt bags. Not all women are self sacrificing ninnies. So, you are an engineer...big deal. Being happy is not about what another person can do for you or how much money you make or whether or not you have children or don't have them. I don't care if you are the smartest engineer in the universe and have the best husband or wife in the world...if you aren't happy with yourself than you will not be happy. Attitude is everything...it would appear you hold such high expectations for yourself that no mere mortal can ever come close to meeting your expectations. You don't seem happy with yourself either. How about accepting people for who they are...respecting them for what they believe in. No everyone lives by your rules. Not everyone sees the world through your eyes or cares to. Some women like having babies and taking care of her husband and kids. If she does, than more power to her. Have you ever tried it? I have and it isn't easy. I respect those women. Not everyone wants to be a professional. Being liberated means having a choice to work or stay home or do both. Maybe when a woman does have a child...through whatever means...her priorities shift...it doesn't mean she is a victim to the evil male dominated world. <p>Men can be stinkers, but plenty of women are just as selfish. How many people have you read about right here on these boards whose wive's ran off and left the kids behind...who have had multiple affairs. Perhaps it has been more acceptable for men to do it, but whatever gender does it...it is lousy.<p>We are all different. Not everyone thinks like you do, TS...it doesn't make them inferior. What works for you won't necessarily work for someone else. I learned a long time ago...don't judge anyone unless you have lived one day in their life.

I would like to offer that I too am a female engineer. Have been in the industry for longer than I care to say. I have also been in the company of male engineers and architects my entire work life. At this particular Intel campus we have over 2K employees, 99% being male.<p>Knowing this I would like to say that I do not share all of TheStudent's views regarding perceived male/female entitlements or related issues. <p>Jo<p>[ April 17, 2002: Message edited by: Resilient ]</p>

Kal,<p>You said <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Wow JL so having children is what women were desgined for! Thanks for clearing that up for me! <hr></blockquote><p>Yup, they sure are. I didn't say that was all they could do or were useful for. My comment stands as stated. The female body is designed to have children. While procreation may not in your mind be that important, it is THE most important part of the human existance. So now while the current modern thinking is that having babies is a sacrifice, it is part of the process.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>How about those women who can't have children or who chose to remain childfree? So a women is basically worthless if she is not reproducing; doing what she was designed for?<hr></blockquote><p>Those are your words not mine. I cannot solve your personal inferiority if that is how you think of women and yourself. I personally feel sorry if that is how you feel. <p>While my W has had 3 children, I didn't get rid of her when that was done. In fact, what I truely look forward to is when all of our children are out of the house and we can enjoy a part of our life that we haven't been able to for over 23 years. So to me her value to me was not her childbearing abilities, but that is what the purpose of marriage really is isn't it?<p>As I wrote to TS, my W had the call on all of this . I supported her decisions and am happy with the ones she made. But, truely I am not surprised, because we knew each other very well before marrying. I doubt that she would say there is a single thing that I have done, that has surprised her.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>I don't know if you realize how sexist, demeaning and insulting that comes across? But then maybe that is how men of your generation look at things?
<hr></blockquote><p>Sexist absolutely; we are talking about sex, and the sexes. Demeaning and insulting? Get a grip, I said nothing that was demeaning of women. It is just you filling in your own blanks. Please point out where I have said women only had one purpose, or were limited in any way. As for men of my generation, well you got me there [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] , I am older than most of you and I do provide the transistion between the depression, WWII, Korea, Vietnam, etc. But, what you may not appreciate is that men of "my generation" were the generation that came of age in the 60's and 70's and we have been over most of this stuff before.<p>Clearly, you seem to want to read into my FACTUAL comment some agenda that you have. Purely and functionally women are designed to carry the babies to gestation. No one else has been given that opportunity. Got a problem with that? take it up with God. I didn't design the system. I simply let my W make choices and support our family.<p>Got a problem with that take it up with someone else.<p>The issue still comes down to one of seeing both sides. The idea that a H has no say or should have no feelings about the life and death of a child he helped conceive, is pretty abhorent to me.<p>Just like when I coach youth sports and have to carry around medical release forms signed by the parents in case the boys or girls (teenagers) hurt themselves. Yet, girls of that same age can check into a clinic and have an abortion without any parently involvment or approval. Does that make sense?? Not to me. Yeah, I know, men of my "generation" just don't get it. WRONG, answer.<p>Must go.<p>God Bless,<p>JL

Dear Student,<p>First, let me just say that from what I have read of your opinions, you seem to have your life in control now (on the desired path), and you seem to feel good about that.<p>I agree with you that women should be more self-reliant, financially. I'm for that. I admire you taking steps toward that in your own life.<p>You have chosen a competitive, male-dominated field and it sounds like you have to work doubly hard to get the respect you feel you deserve and/or have earned (being a woman).<p>It really is a man's world business-wise. After all, God's first assignment to the man was a JOB! [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] I know you probably don't subscribe to all that, but it's still a worthy notable, IMHO.<p>So anyways, it seems to me that you are pursuing your life dreams and yet you sound so bitter, like maybe it is not all that you thought it would be?<p>It seems like if you feel that you wasted all those years of your life with an unsupportive spouse, but now you are free of him, that you would/should be more happy and upbeat instead of disdainful. Maybe I'm wrong, but that's sort of how you come across...<p>I'm just wondering are you sort of afraid that once you get the initials behind your name, will people recognize your accomplishment and give you your due rewards?????? Or do you feel this is what you HAD to do in order to be rewarded/respected in your field.<p>And, after you achieve your career goal, then what? Having a house husband is a great idea, but unrealistic, like you said... My spouse is a very loving husband and father, but he would ditch the opportunity to change a diaper in a heartbeat! [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] There's just something about that RIB that was removed in the beginning...<p>So who will genuinely share your victories and achievements? What ABOUT relationships? Do you have room for intimacy in your life? Just wondering about your feelings. <p>It is obvious that you are smart, ambitious, career-driven and proud of it...