I could be wrong, but I just have a difficult time foreseeing that on your deathbed, you will be wishing that you did more to further your career in order to gain more respect from your peers or from society in general... (?)<p>I know, it's dramatic, but just trying to put things in perspective. I could be wrong, but sometimes, reading your posts, it sounds like your education has left no room for PEOPLE to enter your world. [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] Seems like a lonely place to be...

JL said,<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>But, truely I am not surprised, because we knew each other very well before marrying. I doubt that she would say there is a single thing that I
have done, that has surprised her.<hr></blockquote><p>I would have said the same about my H. We knew each other very well before we married, and for almost all of the next 19 years. There was probably not a single thing that he did that surprised me - at least not a single thing that I knew about. But then all that changed, almost over night, upon my nephew's murder. Now almost everything he does surprises me.<p>It makes absolutely no difference how well you know someone. Mental illness changes all that, sometimes very quickly. That is why you should never depend upon anyone financially or emotionally.

bintheredonethat,<p>"You have chosen a competitive, male-dominated field and it sounds like you have to work doubly hard to get the respect you feel you deserve and/or have earned (being a woman)."<p>well, I can't say I "chose" to be in a competitive, male-dominated field. I chose being in engineering because that is what I like to do. Over the years, I discovered that it is also competitive and male-dominated. Something I have had to accept. You'll find that many women like me are extremely passionate about their work, mostly cause they've had to be just to get by. Otherwise, there would be no incentive to put up with the other crap. <p>I'm disdainful because I don't see my male co-workers having too many problems finding supportive spouses. Very few talk about the challenges of balancing work/family or how they plan to negotiate dual careers--if their wife even has a career. Mainly women have those discussions and I'm kind of sick of it. <p>I'm concerned that getting my PhD will further decrease the "pool of applicants" in terms of finding a suitable partner for myself. It is no myth that many men have a hard time being with a woman who makes more than them or has more education. <p>I'm getting a PhD because that is what is required to do the kind of work I want to do, not for accolades or pats on the back. In fact, I expect my personal life will be more difficult not less difficult after getting this peice of paper--mostly because I'm female--and that makes me angry sometimes.<p>"So who will genuinely share your victories and achievements?"
Don't have a clue. Occasionally I find another woman like myself to share in some camraderie. Other male Phd's generally understand how much work is involved, but don't have a clue about the effects on a woman's personal life.<p>"What ABOUT relationships?"
I dunno. What about relationships? I have good friends and family. I seem to be putting myself out of the running to have a so-called normal "intimate" relationship--again, mostly because I chose to do engineering instead of nursing (as an example). This is not something I understood going in. My parents didn't raise me to believe that men did this and women did that, so it has taken quite awhile for it to sink in that I'm kind of a freak in that respect. I'm not about to become an interior designer or get a PhD in child development this late in the game just to make the world happy that I'm choosing a gender appropriate job. <p>"Do you have room for intimacy in your life?"
Yes, but I've found it is not forthcoming because many men expect me to sacrifice things they won't sacrifice themselves. Just to be fair, many of my female friends can't begin to understand how important my job/career/education is either, so they are just as likely to recommend chucking it as any man because that is what they would do. Although, I bet they'd be pretty pissed if their H chucked his job or goals toward a more prosperous future--and would lose respect for any other man who would do the same. I see that as lazy on their part. Just as lazy as the men who won't change diapers, for instance. <p>"Just wondering about your feelings."
Thanks. <p>"I could be wrong, but I just have a difficult time foreseeing that on your deathbed, you will be
wishing that you did more to further your career in order to gain more respect from your peers or from society in general... (?)"<p>I'm not doing this to gain more respect from my peers or from society. I like engineering and I like research. It is what I do. The fact that it is unusual for a woman to do it makes my life difficult. That, and I believe that women are more often faced with an either/or decision when it comes to family and work. Men aren't. <p>Nellie,<p>"That is why you should never depend upon anyone financially or emotionally."<p>not for one's survival, I agree. Unfortunately, many women don't really understand what a precarious position they are putting themselves in when they get married. I know this is one thing you are still angry about, and you have every reason to be. When I got married, noone told me how often marriages fail or why. I'm sure I would not have gotten married a second time, and certainly would not have supported my ex to the degree that I did had I known then what I know now. As far as I'm concerned, any man who enters my life now is on their own in that respect.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by TheStudent:
<strong>
I'm concerned that getting my PhD will further decrease the "pool of applicants" in terms of finding a suitable partner for myself. It is no myth that many men have a hard time being with a woman who makes more than them or has more education.</strong><hr></blockquote><p>I think what's lowering your pool of applicants is not your education, but your general bitterness towards men. Most men don't find that attractive.<p>BTW, I love an educated woman; my X (like myself) has an advanced degree in Engineering. We agreed to put a lot of emphasis on her career, while I became the defacto babysitter of our two small kids (on top of having my own career), so that she could go to her late meetings and business trips. She did make more money than me, and I thought that was awesome. I did all the other things that you say men "rarely do". And she went on and did exactly what you ascribe to men (cheat), because her OM was more passionate about his career than I was about mine. So, sometimes it seems like men can't win. If we don't share the home duties, then we're pigs, and if we do, then we're not ambitious... And you wonder men "can't get it right?".<p>I understand that you've been hurt by men before, but I hope you also realize that many men have been hurt by women, and it's not simply a matter of trying to blame an entire sex for all of life's problems.<p>Peace.<p>AGG<p>[ April 18, 2002: Message edited by: AGoodGuy ]</p>

TheStudent,<p>I, too, had no idea how common divorce was. I had no idea that it was common for men to leave their families after decades of marriage. I had no idea that it was common for men to leave after "feeling that way for weeks or months" as my H said - I thought that divorce only followed years of difficulties. I had no idea that good, responsible fathers could almost overnight stop caring whether their children went to college or even had a roof over their heads. I had no idea that you could not trust someone you had known for a quarter of a century. If I had, aside from the fact that I would never have married in the first place, I would never have left my career to support his move.

Yeah, it's not what happens to us, it's how we take it.<p>TS,
I totally disagree with your "reduction in the pool of applicants" theory. If anything, getting your degree will make YOU a more marketable product, that is, if you can still be able to get your head through the door! [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] I'm kidding, but you know, you gotta lighten up a bit. The things we fear, we draw near. I don't know why life works that way, but we always run right smack into the things we dread.<p>I believe there IS a man out there for you. One who is perfectly suited to you. You only need to find one, right? He is going to be someone who is secure in his manhood and who is not going to be intimidated by your position or salary or passions. In fact, he will be supportive of you in every way, not like your ex. This is the kind of person you need.<p>I hope I'm not trying to fit a 16x20 idea into a 5x7 mind, here. I know you rely on facts and research, but ya gotta dream a little, too! And have a little faith... I mean, don't be going through your life with such a bright future ahead of you--looking through the rear view mirror. We attract people based on what (bait) we are putting out there. If we are attracting toxic people toward ourselves, we have to reprogram our own computers (our thinking, which shapes our attitudes)...<p>The question is, if you find someone who can "handle" you, so to speak, will YOU be able to allow your fears to fall by the wayside long enough to let him into your heart--and see the REAL you deep inside there... (?) the one who is hurting and not the powerful, self-assured, passionate researcher who is always in control of her destiny? I mean, is your self-reliance blocking your vulnerability to love and be loved anymore, ever?<p>What I perceive is someone who is taking control of her life so that no other man will be able to control her ever again in life. Nothing against that, but what happens when you just need someone to hold you when you are afraid and tell you that everything will be okay? Everybody needs that sometimes--even big, strong, macho he-men! [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>For what it's worth, consider yourself hugged. I believe when Mr.Right comes along, all your logic will go out the window! Just be sure to keep up your jogging so you can pace yourself and go the distance!

bintheredonethat,<p>I guess what it comes down to is that I don't consider marriage or those kinds of relationships to be a comfortable place. Not, as some have assumed, out of a fear of intimacy. My frustration almost always revolves around what I percieve as a wasted investment in another person--not because my feelings were hurt. I know that there are alot of nice people out there--both men and women. <p>It's just that, to me, time is the ultimate luxury. I don't need alot of money. My needs are simple...but don't waste my time.<p>My approach now is pretty straightforward. I don't invest in "intimate" relationships. I simply don't see the negotiation that is required to maintain a very long term relationship as having much benefit. Or should I say, the benefits are not significant enough to warrant the kind of effort required. <p>"The question is, if you find someone who can "handle" you, so to speak, will YOU be able to allow your fears to fall by the wayside long enough to let him into your heart--and see the REAL you deep inside there... (?) the one who is hurting and not the powerful, self-assured, passionate researcher who is always in control of her destiny? I mean, is your self-reliance blocking your vulnerability to love and be loved anymore, ever?"<p>I have my friends and family for that. You don't need to be having sex with someone, or dump your career, or move across the country, do their laundry and cook for them day in and day out in order to have those things. <p>Goodguy,<p>"I think what's lowering your pool of applicants is not your education, but your general bitterness
towards men. Most men don't find that attractive."<p>Hmm. Well, I manage to make male friends for some reason. Then again, the people you choose as friends are quite different than the people you choose to spend your life with. <p>By defintion, men choose women (and vice-versa) based on their compatibility and willingness to pattern their life in a way that suits their own. When I tell people that men don't negotiate dual careers well, they see that as a personal attack against men rather than an observation of our social structure. Men don't negotiate dual careers or domestic labor well because they haven't had to in the past. They have no examples. Team that up with popular ideas (probably based in religious teachings of some sort) that men are supposed to be in charge--and you have a formula for disaster IMO.

Well, as long as you are secure in your place, I don't have a problem with any of your stances. Your feelings are relevant. <p>It's fascinating from where I sit because I have always had dependent(s) in my life, since my early 20s when I got pregnant by a MM and decided to keep OC and raise with no contact. Became very set in my ways before I married 10 years later... It wasn't the way I dreamed my adult life would start out--single parenting--but when Mr.Right came along, I felt I was ready to be a wife... But when the honeymoon ends, and reality sets in we DO make sacrifices--women moreso than men. Women seem to have the inherent ability to adapt to men. I don't know why? I think that is just how we are made... (?) It's not "fair" but for some reason, that word must be tossed out the window when we get married--if we intend to stay married. In marriage, you can just forget about "fairness" and do whatcha gotta do. *sigh*<p>You know what I saw on the road today? I saw a woman driving a luxury sports car with "HER CAR" printed on the license plate. When I got closer, the plate cover read "HIS MONEY." When I read that, it made me smile and wonder what YOU would think if you saw something like that?????? [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img] <p>When I read it, I thought to myself, "eeeuuu, have you no shame, woman!?" [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Oh well, evidently somebody thought it was cute. I didn't... But that's just me! [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]

"Women seem to have the inherent ability to adapt to men."<p>Naah. It's taught, and from a very young age. Women are raised to base their self-esteem on the needs and accomplishments of their significant other much more than their own...and woe to the woman who doesn't!! <p>"I don't know why? I think that is just how we are made... (?)"<p>Uh uh. Women are too afraid to assert themselves, and for good reason. <p>"It's not "fair" but for some reason, that word must be tossed out the window when we get married--if we intend to stay married."<p>Yep, which is why I won't get married again. <p>"In marriage, you can just forget about "fairness" and do whatcha gotta do. *sigh*"<p>Yea, I guess men and women have different complaints in that respect. Men complain about never getting enough sex and women complain that men don't do enough with the kids/housework. Its a vicious cycle.<p>What would I say about that bumper sticker? More power to her, as long as she has her own funds when he tosses her out for twinkie-dujour.<p>[ April 22, 2002: Message edited by: TheStudent ]</p>

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by TheStudent:
<strong>Well, I manage to make male friends for some reason. Then again, the people you choose as friends are quite different than the people you choose to spend your life with. </strong><hr></blockquote><p>I completely agree with you here. I have female friends whose friendship I enjoy very much, but whose outlooks on marriage and relationships are completely different from mine, and thus I would never consider them marriage "material" for me. Two different things.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr><strong>When I tell people that men don't negotiate dual careers well, they see that as a personal attack against men rather than an observation of our social structure. Men don't negotiate dual careers or domestic labor well</strong><hr></blockquote><p>In my experience, it is the women who don't negotiate dual careers or domestic labor well... Fortunately, I am smart enough to realize two things: 1. that this statement ("negotiate dual careers well") is too vague to really mean anything; 2. that my experience is limited, and cannot be expanded to women as a whole.<p>I don't really want to argue with you, TS, but I really dislike biases, and you trying to pass off your biases as "facts" has always irked me. Like I said before, you've been hurt by men, but the men on this forum have been hurt by women. It's not that one sex or the other is inherently "bad", it is just that people sometimes do cruel things to each other. <p>AGG

Good guy,<p>"In my experience, it is the women who don't negotiate dual careers or domestic labor well..."<p>oh well. Maybe I agree with you here. They get sick of whining and nagging at their H and just suck it up as long as they can...until the woman gets fed up and hauls *ss or the man cheats on her with a woman who isn't nagging him to do his friggin' share. Or being treated like the domestic stuff is automatically HER job---like when he does his share he is "helping" and she has to "ask" for him to pull his weight. Or, even worse, sitting by and listening to all his and/or her friends/relatives gushing over him when he so much as picks up a dishtowel, changes a diaper, or pushes the vacuum around once a week. SPARE ME!!!

TS,<p>So affairs all the man's fault??? We either cheat or cause the the woman to cheat because we do nothing around the house???<p>I've been on this planet a lot longer than you have and the majority of men I know do help around the house and with the care of their children.<p>Did it ever occur to you that maybe you are a bad judge of character and this is the type of people you hang around with?

"oh well. Maybe I agree with you here. They get sick of whining and nagging at their H and just suck it up as long as they can...until the woman gets fed up and hauls *ss or the man cheats on her with a woman who isn't nagging him to do his friggin' share. Or being treated like the domestic stuff is automatically HER job---like when he does his share he is "helping" and she has to "ask" for him to pull his weight. Or, even worse, sitting by and listening to all his and/or her friends/relatives gushing over him when he so much as picks up a dishtowel, changes a diaper, or pushes the vacuum around once a week. SPARE ME!!!"<p>
Glad to know why my W had and affair and child with the OM. I must be wrong about what I thought I was doing. I thought I was supportive and helpful, I guess I was wrong.<p>(I can't believe I read the whole thing.)

RWD,<p>"the majority of men I know do help around the house and with the care of their children."<p>BUSTED!! Doing housework and taking care of one's children is NOT "helping". It is called--part of the JOB of having a relationship and a family. Men aren't doing women any big fat favors by considering those things as "helping"---cause guess what?! It isn't automatically her job!! As far as I'm concerned, it is the absolute bare minimum required to justify one's existence as a married person and being a parent--whether you are a man or a woman. <p>"I've been on this planet a lot longer than you have.."<p>How old do you think I am? I'm old enough to have kids older than yours, so I'm just wondering.<p>"So affairs all the man's fault??? We either cheat or cause the the woman to cheat because we do nothing around the house???" <p>I dunno. Draw your own conclusions...from Harley's article titled "why women leave men"
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8111_leave.html<p>"Men's perceived failure to satisfy their wives is punctuated by the fact that women file for divorce twice as often as men. In other words, their unhappiness with marriage often results in divorce.... They feel that their wives demand too much, and that most other women would be ecstatic if married to them. <p>Not THIS woman!!<p>"Their wives have become spoiled, take their efforts for granted and have unrealistic expectations." <p>yea, I guess it is an unrealistic expectation that some women insist that a man do HALF without thinking he deserves a big lollipop for his "trouble". On the other hand, I don't have alot of nice things to say about women who don't work and have the nerve to pressure their husbands to make more money. They can afford to get off their backside too or put themselves on a budget.<p>[ April 22, 2002: Message edited by: TheStudent ]</p>

TS,
I'll make the correction, I know lots of men that do their fair half of the work. In fact I know a few that do more than their fair half. I am using the half since you seem to beleive that marriage is a 50-50 proposition.<p>I see you still refuse to take nature into account in regards to how people act. Women's lib has been around for how long now, 20-30 yrs? Then why haven't inroads been made into teaching men how to do their half of the work as you proclaim most men do not?

Why is it that most women still have the nest building desire?? Should not have women's lib wiped most of this out ???? <p>Is this trait not inherent to women? The same as relationships building?? I am not saving that is right, that just the way it is. That is mother nature.<p>As for age I am closing in on 50.<p>[ April 22, 2002: Message edited by: RWD ]</p>

RWD,<p>"Then why haven't inroads been made into teaching men how to do their half of the work as you proclaim most men do not?"
Because it is easier to get a divorce and make men pay child support or don't get married at all. Inroads have been made. Men who are less than 25-30 or so are pretty competent domestically from what I can tell. <p>"Is this trait not inherent to women?"
No, old habits just die hard.<p>"The same as relationships building??"
Oh, now I've heard it all. What exactly are men good for anyway? Let's see...they don't "nest", so they aren't expected to do housework, etc. They are not biologically wired to build relationships, so emotional support is also out. Gee. If all that is true, you guys are very easily replaced by friends, family, and a decent maid--which is kind of my point.<p>"I am not saving that is right, that just the way it is. That is mother nature."<p>You know, there was a time when people thought the earth revolved around the sun too, but eventually they discovered that wasn't true. It's not mother nature. If it were, then women wouldn't be divorcing their husband's twice as often. APPARENTLY there is something about marriage that does not serve women as much as it serves men. You'll also find that women are not as quick to get remarried as men are. Gee, with all these excuses about why it is not in men's "nature" to be an equal partner, it is hardly a surprise. And yes, I do think marriage better be a 50/50 proposition--or else why do it?<p>You are ten years older than me. I don't see a huge difference between 40 and 50.<p>[ April 22, 2002: Message edited by: TheStudent ]</p>

My last question for you then is, with all of your male bashing and the anti-marriage stance, why do you come to Marriagebuilders?
A website that cherishes marriage and therefore men also??

RWD,<p>It is not male-bashing to state the obvious or remind you of some documented statistics (ie. Harley's article). You might benefit from understanding why a good portion of women are fed up with what you might consider marriage.<p>I'm all in favor of an equal partnership in marriage. Too bad that happens so infrequently in real life.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by TheStudent:
<strong>..until the woman gets fed up and hauls *ss or the man cheats on her with a woman who isn't nagging him to do his friggin' share. ...Or, even worse, sitting by and listening to all his and/or her friends/relatives gushing over him when he so much as picks up a dishtowel, changes a diaper, or pushes the vacuum around once a week. SPARE ME!!!</strong><hr></blockquote><p>OK, I'll SPARE YOU that I changed more diapers than my ex, spent more time with the kids than my ex, did more household duties, and maintained our house and cars, all while holding as "important" a job as my ex, only to have HER decide that I wasn't passionate enough about my work, to have her cheat on me, and to haul *ss, as you say... So perhaps I can be a copycat and declare that ALL women are like that, or to expand my accusation to saying that all women are materialistic pigs who simply marry a guy to have some kids, and then divorce him knowing full well that they will get the custody of the children, half of his income/possessions, etc... Nah, I'm too smart for that, and I know that that is not the case...<p>Anyway, until you add some facts to this discussion, I'll continue to look at this as simply male bashing bigotry on your part, TS, and I will continue to refer you to my previous response:<p>I don't really want to argue with you, TS, but I really dislike biases, and you trying to pass off your biases as "facts" has always irked me. Like I said before, you've been hurt by men, but the men on this forum have been hurt by women. It's not that one sex or the other is inherently "bad", it is just that people sometimes do cruel things to each other. <p>I'm leaving this discussion now, until we get into some factual matters other than simple bashing.<p>AGG

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by TheStudent:
<strong>...What would I say about that bumper sticker? More power to her, as long as she has her own funds when he tosses her out for twinkie-dujour.
</strong><hr></blockquote><p>I knew you would make me laugh...<p>The thing is, it would be really funny if it weren't so sad... [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] It is happening right before our eyes on these boards... Women who have devoted their time and lives into their families and H's being abusive withholding money or affection and the wife wants to leave, but no job, no skills, no money. Grrrrrr! [img]images/icons/mad.gif" border="0[/img] <p>So I'm behind you all the way as you climb your corporate ladder. I hope you fulfill your dream. Just know that I'm down at the bottom somewhere. Stepping off. In fact, one foot is flat on the ground as we speak... type... [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] Doesn't feel too bad, either! *sigh*