Wow again. I really appreciate this healthy discussion.<p>Personally, I do believe I am moving on and I can set a good example for my son. I also admit to past "violations" of some of the recommendations given here pertaining to criticizing both my X and OM to my son in trying to answer his questions. My reasoning at the time was that I shouldn't imply my acceptance of their behavior - I shouldn't condone lying and betrayal. By not speaking negatively of their actions, I was afraid my son would process what he had seen and was experiencing as acceptable. What I wasn't doing well enough was remembering he's still a child and he may not be capable yet of handling the information as an adult - even though he does quite well with algebra [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] . I have resolved to tread more carefully in this regard. I do believe that he'll figure it out eventually.<p>Regarding forgiveness, I forgave my X long ago, although she certainly doesn't know it, nor likely does she care nor think she needs to be forgiven. Inherent in my forgiveness of her is an understanding of what she is probably dealing with in the aftermath of our loss together with an understanding of other aspects of her life.<p>But forgiving OM is an entirely different matter and I'm sure this affects my emotions when it comes to my son's interactions with him. Maybe I don't really understand forgiveness at all and I place too high a price on it by needing to understand. But, this doesn't mean I can't accept the situation and move on as I think I'm demonstrating.<p>My difficulty in forgiving OM is the extent of his crime. This creature was a blood donor and pallbearer for my deceased son. He saw our struggle and witnessed our grief. With that knowledge, how he could then impose upon my family his selfserving interests, as well as shattering his own family, and maintain his righteousness to this day, I will never understand. Not until I see some remorse and humility from this organism can I even conceive of forgiveness. I don't think I'm angry at him. I have no inclination to cause him harm. If given the opportunity to save his life, I'd hesitate, but then I'd probably do it. But if he got run over by a truck today, I'd conclude that it couldn't happen to a more deserving guy.<p>So, you wise people. Am I screwed up?<p>WAT

Dave,<p>No, I don't hink you are screwed up at all. I think it was easier for you to forgive your exW, because you might feel that she was "taken advantage of" in her weakened state following the illness and death of your child. In some ways, she is a "victim" of this whole mess, too.<p>It may be harder to forgive the OM, because you see him totally as a predator. You even use the words "self serving" to describe him in your post above. Forgiveness of him will be harder for you to attain. My opinion is that at some point it is necessary and healthier for you to forgive this man, although he has taken so very much from you.
I feel very strongly about this. <p>Forgivenss is NOT synonymous with condoning what happened and NOT the same as blessing their continued relationship. I loved Starpony's explaination, best. Reread that, please. To me, it is saying to yourself, "OK, this happened; I can't change it; I will not let this or these people have the power to further destroy or hurt me; I will release the hurt and anger; I will let it all go; I will forgive these people the hurt they caused me; I will ask God to help me move on and find better and more positive things in my life to dwell on; I want to forgive and move on to a better place in my life."<p>Forgiveness does NOT come easily. But if you pray and desire to forgive, in time, you will be able to do so.<p>I love WhoDat's (an oldtimer's) moniker the very best. It goes something like this: "Resentment is you taking the poison and then waiting for the other person to die." Really think about that - because it is true. Work toward forgiveness for YOURSELF and for YOUR SON. The OM and your exW don't need or care about you forgiving them. You need to do it for yourself and your son. <p>Each of your actions and reactions is a life lesson for your child. When he is an adult, he will "see" things for himself. Continue to act in ways that have his best interest at heart. You can't make his mother come home, you can't make her stop seeing the OM, but you can minimize the amount of conflict and turmoil he has to deal with by your acceptance at this juncture.<p>God bless, Desiree

worthatry,<p>I think you would be abnormal (or lying) if you did claim to forgive the OM. In many cases the OP's are predators, preying on people who are suffering from depression and grief. Although my situation doesn't come close to yours in terms of pain, my H's depression and subsequent affair began immediately after my nephew was murdered. The OP can not be assumed to be merely a fallible human being who "made mistakes." Certainly the OW in my case is a cruel woman who, along with my H, purposely contrives to cause my children to live in poverty - not only does she at the least enable my H's continued unemployment, but I strongly suspect that she is in large measure responsible for his losing his job in the first place. <p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>By not speaking negatively of their actions, I was afraid my son would process what he had seen and was experiencing as acceptable.<hr></blockquote><p>I believe that this is absolutely true. Children ARE capable of understanding the difference between right and wrong. They are capable of understanding that, although what a parent has done is wrong, that does not mean that they should stop loving them. They are capable of understanding the devastation that depression can cause. It is our responsibility as parents to put this in terms that they can understand depending on their age. <p>There is NO point in trying to forgive someone who is not remorseful. It does no one, including yourself, any good. <p>I will never understand why people seem to think that anger is an inappropriate or harmful emotion. Why on earth does Sesame Street have to tell children that it is ok to get mad? Are their parents telling them it is not? Of course it is ok to be angry. Anger is the appropriate response to inequity. What is harmful is having people come on here and tell you that you should be feeling guilty about having a perfectly normal and appropriate emotion, that somehow you could stop feeling this emotion if you worked at it hard and long enough. That is just a bunch of cr**.

Nellie:<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>A long time ago, on another message board, the discussion of forgiveness came up - and one of the Christians on the board said to me, "Even Jesus was not willing to forgive non-repentant sinners." Forgiveness is completely meaningless when there is no repentance. <hr></blockquote><p>From a Christian viewpoint, that's completely not true. As you well know, we just celebrated Easter. Christ certainly forgave his executors ("Father forgive them, they know not what they do"), without any of those individuals asking forgiveness.<p>There's no doubt that repentance is a very nice avenue for forgiveness. But it's not the only one. And Starpony and RMA have pretty much summed up the way I feel. <p>Don't forget---without forgiveness, you're putting yourself in the position of judgement. And the bible has some clear instructions on that as well. There's nothing wrong with pointing out sin---for denouncing it as evil. But there's certainly something to be said for hating the sin, loving the sinner.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Nellie1:
<strong>There is NO point in trying to forgive someone who is not remorseful. It does no one, including yourself, any good.</strong><hr></blockquote><p>Hi Nellie, <p>It is NOT for the OTHER PERSON, it is for YOU. <p>This is not about Christian vs. Non-Christian, and I won't even go "there."<p>There's a wonderful little book called "Forgive and Forget" by Lewis B. Smedes. Let me share just a thought from the book:<p>"When you release the wrongdoer from the wrong, you cut out a malignant tumor out of your life."<p>This is not about saying it's "A-OK"... it's about saying "I refuse to allow this to eat me alive"...<p>Please just think about it.

K,<p>First of all, I do not believe that there is anything wrong with judgement. That is what responsible people do; that is what society does when it makes and enforces laws.

I think forgiving someone who has not asked for forgiveness is putting yourself in the position of judgement. <p>Sheryl,<p>Saying that you refuse to allow something to eat you alive has absolutely nothing to do with forgiveness, absolutely nothing to do with "releasing the wrongdoer from the wrong."