This morning I was feeling very unstable due to how he treated me yesterday, so I told him we need to agree to be separated, that I can't tolerate this anymore....His answer is "Stop attacking me". I said, I'm telling you where I'm at, that I need separation. I'm not trying to attack you." I think he's fighting the abandonment. He also said he has a right to be be at this house around his daughters. I said we can make arrangements regarding the kids but I can't be around you. He didn't agree to anything. Then he brought up how hard he's working & what changes he's done just this past week, like I should be happy based on "things" he does. He doesn't get it...this is not about externals so much as it is about his internal issues and our sick relationship!

Oh my gosh, Renae! I am so sorry that youe husband is treating you like this! I feel so horrible for you!<BR>I do think that you might need to get a court order for him. He sounds too dangerous for you and your daughters. We don't realize how much they really pick up at their age. <BR>Please, stay strong with the Lord. That is the most important thing, I will pray for you.

Renae.....I have not read all the posts...but have gleened a good idea of what you are going through.....<P>I am in a similar situation....my husband did agree to move out for a separation though...<P>books.....The Verbally Abusive Relationship, and its follow up.....Verbal Abuse Survivors Speak Out, both by Patricia Evans.....are excellent books that you should read if you have not......No Visible Wounds, (can't remember author right now) is also a good book.<P>website.... <A HREF="http://www.drirene.com" TARGET=_blank>www.drirene.com</A> is a great site for verbal abuse... keeping you up at 2 in the morning is classic....keeps you tired and frustrated and not thinking clearly...his claiming you are the one with the problem is also classic.....<P>the fact that your kids are watching this.....and learning.....is something we all need to consider....daughters learn that it is okay to be treated like you are, and sons learn it is okay to treat women like this.....WRONG!!!<P>another place you might find help is...1-800-799-SAFE it is a national domestic abuse number, they can help you find support in your area.....<P>I did not read whether or not your husband has gotten physical.....and according to statistics..it is just a matter of time until he does....but when mine did and I filed a police report, I was able to get free counseling for the kids and I through the victim's assistance program here in our state....<P>another thing that you need to be aware of...and I apologize if I am repeating something....but it is worth repeating...when you try to leave, or make him leave, he will sense this loss of control...and ***he will probably get more violent!!!**** so be extra careful <P>what you need to do....get copies of ALL important papers...birth cert., stocks, bonds, last bank statements, marriage lisence, social security cards, everything, and mail them to a good friend who knows what you are going through....<P>let a friend keep valuables..pictures, negatives, treasured keepsakes....things you know he might destroy in an attempt to hurt you.....to control you.....this can be done slowly to not raise suspicion....<P>save up a little money...stash it in your car....or let a friend keep it....in case you need to make a quick getaway....have a plan set up to leave and a place to go...not an obvious place, such as one of your friends...but maybe a distant relative, or a friend of a friend.....<P>hopefully you (and I) will never have to use these measures...but I have talked with many women who wish they had planned ahead.....better to be safe than sorry....<P>how to get money?? at the grocer...or department store, etc.....write the check for 10 or 20 over...stash the cash....<P>I will read the rest of the posts now...be safe...be safe...

okay.....I read through all the posts.....((((Renae and girls))))<P>he has gotten physical..my guess would be that since he is realizing he is losing control he will get more violent....you must take action soon!!!<P>remember....YOU cannot change HIM!! YOU are not GOD and do not have that kind of power.....so no matter what you do, he will be the same man...and HE is resposible for HIS actions.....remember that!!!<P>you talk often of his beliefs...there is a book...FALSE ASSUMPTIONS...Relief from 12 **Christian** Beliefs that Can Drive You Crazy....by Dr. Henry Cloud and Dr. John Townsend.....excellent book that may help you with some of the things that your husband continually throws at you...<P>btw..if your husband dismantles the computer again....don't forget the library...I have used the computer there on more than one occassion....<P>if you need to vent any more...contact me at<BR>stilldreamin@hotmail.com and contact the domestic abuse hotline asap!! Also do not hesitate to call the police....get a file started on him with them....it will help you when it comes to child custody...<P>and before I forget....WHATEVER YOU DO, ***DO NOT**** LEAVE THE HOUSE WITHOUT THE GIRLS!!! This could be construed as abandonment.....take them with you should you decide to move someplace else!!<P>blessings and peace.....

Stilldreamin: Thank you for confirming that I have been on the right track. When you're in this kind of situation, it is so easy to doubt myself because his talk is so invalidating, crazy-making, degrading. <P>In the beginning I respected him so highly, and then over the years to learn he is an<BR>ABUSER???!!! I spent some time in denial,<BR>not wanting to believe the reality I was faced with! But I am not in denial anymore.<P>To all who are following my story, I have<BR>a new development. God impressed on my heart in the last week that according to Matt 18:15-19, the one thing I haven't yet done is bring the matter before his church/pastor.<BR>My spouse had forbid me doing this, so how could I do it? I sensed God telling me now that I need to do this before separating or divorce. If he will not change even when his church confronts him, then the Bible says to treat him as a heathen, let him sit in his misery and I can go on.<P>Anyway, last week I just got a referral for a counselor, and to my shock, she is from my spouse's denomination!!! This denomination frowns on counseling outside their group, psychology, etc. I thought people just went to their pastors for help. Now I find this counselor, so I don't have to go to my spouse's pastor!! This lady and her pastor want to counsel us.<P>But I was afraid they would not understand abuse and would just tell me to submit, because they believe so strongly in a man's authority. So I told her a couple things I experience, and immediately she said that is abuse!! I was so relieved to know she could intervene in my situation that I nearly cried! <P>I have peace that God is leading me according to the Matt. 18 process of confronting my spouse of his sin/ignorance/abuse/neglect.<BR>If he then continues to do evil, resistant to correction, change or growth, then separate<BR>from the one Jesus says has "hardness of heart" (Matt. 19) But Chapter 18 confronting comes before Chapter 19 leaving. I believe I am being obedient to God's process. And when I asked my spouse if he would go to this counselor, to my surprise, he said yes!!!!<P>My deliverance is coming! Once his church deals with him, I believe things can only get better for me, whether I stay or leave the marriage. Pray for me!!!<P>

Just want to mention, the counseling is set<BR>for Aug. 29th, 10 a.m. Could you all pray?<BR>Pray that my spouse will wake up to the pain he's put me through! Pray it prompts him to<BR>get help for his problems! Pray that he will stop harrassing me and let us separate so I can heal and be at peace. <P>Currently he's under alot of business pressures, etc. again and really abusive toward me, and won't leave or let me leave.<P>Thanks for everyone's support and prayers!<BR>

Wow, Renae! This is a powerful thread you started. I will certainly pray for you. Have you been to the Women's Bible study forum yet? Read the major thread <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum25/HTML/000588.html" TARGET=_blank>Boundaries.... (SueB)</A>. <P>Love,<P>Karenna<P>------------------<BR>A true friend is one who not only is willing to love us the way we are, but is able to leave us better than he found us.

Hello Renae,<P>Sorry I wasn't able to post earlier but I was recuperating from surgery.<P>I am glad that you have found a counsellor that both you and your H will meet. Are you both attending on the 29th?<P>I pray for you and hope that you will get good results from this and that you obtain peace and harmony in your life again (after a long, long journey!)<P>Take care Renae. Please keep us posted.

Thanks for your post, Karenna! <P>Good to hear from you, Lonelywife! I hope your recovery goes well from surgery! Please post an update in your thread what is happening in your life, marriage, etc.! I think of you and pray for you!<P>Yes, we both are on the schedule to attend the counseling session. Problem right now is that she called and said the pastor's policy is for the man to leave him a voice mail confirming that he plans to come.<BR>I told my spouse this, and he has not yet called!!....(will he follow through as promised earlier?)<P>Last night my spouse was harrassing me terribly. I was shocked at how he is rewriting history! He's come up with new ways of justifying himself, and trying to make up new ways of cutting me down....<P>I suspect this is in preparation for the counseling session, to try to make a fool out of me. It doesn't look good. He even hinted at the possibility that he won't call the pastor....like he wants to keep me wondering if he will follow through on the counseling or not. I see the game... As long as he's in control and I'm left insecure, that's the way he will play 'til the last minute. I'm sick of it alll!<P>I tried to keep him from attending my family's reunion on Sunday, but he insisted on taking us there. I was worried how I could bear to spend five hours in the car with him, 10 hours total. I wondered if he dared to tell my parents something, etc. But it went ok.<P>But last night he used that trip to tell me how great he's always treated me!!!!!!!! I told him, so you just took me to use it against me in counseling? He doesn't like me calling his bluffs, but I want him to know he's not controlling anymore.<P>The counselor said to try to stay here until they have a chance to counsel him. But it is driving me crazy. He gets tougher and tougher on me, which is typical of an abuser.<P>The kids know now that we may be separating.<BR>They have been so good to me....Bless their hearts!!<P>Please pray for me! The battle is harder than ever. Pray I will KNOW for sure what to do after the counseling, like how I can finally get separation. I can hardly wait for peace!!<P>~Renae<P><BR>

Hello Renae,<P>It looks like you have decided in your heart to separate. Especially now that your children also know.<P>So what are you waiting for, Renae? Are you hoping to get the go-ahead from the counsellor on the 29th? You don't need confirmation from someone else that your husband has been treating you shabbily (to say the least)!<P>He will probably make out to be the sweetest guy in the world at the session and try and make you look like you're the b***h. Why do you want to put yourself through that?<P>I don't mean to be so harsh, but I don't think one counselling session will change 14 years of the way your husband has been treating you. He will change only when he when 'he' realizes that he needs to change. No matter what anyone tells him, he has to accept the fact that he needs to change, otherwise you might as well be beating upon a wall.<P>I pray for you Renae and hope that you can come out of this as intact as possible and that your children will understand why and what is happening to them.<P>Good luck Renae and keep us posted.

Due to all the circumstances we have been through, especially years of intense legal work for his dad's estate, we lost alot of time this past year attending to our own business, tax stuff, etc...so I have to get this stuff done before I can leave here. <P>It really helped to be around my relatives on Sunday. I had been so isolated from all of them, that I felt a renewed sense of who I am again. It was so healing and encourages me to keep up the fight to become whole again! <P>Due to all the stress, depression cycles, etc., I'm taking a good dose of St. John's Wort product right now, which really is helping my mood to be stable enough to focus on work and prep. to get out. I was exploring job possibilities and apartment costs yesterday too. I'm trying to figure out where I can fit in out there & make a wage that will allow me to get an apartment big enough for the kids too. I need a job that will be a boost to my esteem and my resume, if possible. <P>I believe I can't leave until I've done the Matt. 18: 15-19 process, that my spouse must be confronted by his own church to shape up, and he won't do it on his own, only if I keep the pressure on now. This is probably the last great effort of love for him to encourage his growth that I can do. Then I believe I have done all I can do, and can separate. Whatever abuse I endure before complete separation (hopefully in a month or two)is spiritual sacrificial love for his soul, because whatever happens between us, I know it is God's desire for him to grow. <P>From the human mindset and emotional perspective, this doesn't make sense, I know. But I believe in my spirit this is what God wants me to do. The real proof of who my spouse is, comes in that church office: whether he will humble himself and commit to therapy and change or if he will paint himself as righteous and shoot me.<P>I've gone 14 years and know more now than ever about him. What's waiting one more week, month, or two? At that point, there will be no doubt where his heart is at.<BR>His response to the confrontation will show his heart, and I can go on with my life, knowing I have done everything I could do.<P>~Renae

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I believe I can't leave until I've done the Matt. 18: 15-19 process, that my<BR>spouse must be confronted by his own church to shape up, and he won't do it on his own, only if I keep the pressure on now. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Been quietly reading your thread for awhile Renae. My pastor would agree with you in regards to taking the first step of the Matt 18 process before separating. After that first step of actually identifying what the "sin" is before two or more, he also says that the purpose of separation is solely to work on reconcilliation and to protect what love you still have for your husband during the process of reconcilliation. Have you actually sat down and wrote out what the specific sins are so that you can present them in an intelligent fashion, having all your thoughts in order? My pastor says that you identify what the sin is, what you have done towards dealing with the issues, etc. What I am finding as I write out stuff is that God is showing me much about my own logs and He is wanting me to work on those issues right now. Don't know if you went through our Boundaries thread down in Women's Bible Study or the one on seeking God but I do feel I am growing in Him in spite of what abuse my hubby throws my way. Praying for you.

SueB,<BR>Thanks for writing to me. I viewed the thread you mentioned on boundaries recently. I guess my situation is not only handling a controller/abuser/narcissist but even more so, it is being unequally yoked spiritually and emotionally, having completely different mindsets/blueprints concerning marriage and ministry:<P>He recently told me "marriage is for ministry, not relationship, that he married me to have someone to work with in the church." This shocked me. I thought most normal people married for companionship, someone to grow intimately with first and out of that oneness could come family and ministry together. I've had a burning desire for ministry but when I married him, I expected a marriage first! He says, no God/church first and only, and Christianity is only doing and external issues (i.e. stand up for what's right in politics, etc.). I say Christianity and marriage is first about your internal condition (real spirituality and maturity) and relationships (caring, meeting needs, etc.)....and as you grow into personal, spiritual, and marital wholeness in Christ, ministry flows from that, not only as a specific role you have in church but in daily life with who you come in contact with.<P>No wonder I've had such a hard time trying to have relationship with him! He has no concept of relationship, and has no need to build one because he just dominates me. As long as he's in control, getting his needs met, I'm supposed to be ok. He thinks this is the Biblical design, he's happy having power, so why change anything?

Hi Renae,<P>The thing is. the order of importance that your H identifies with is not the balance that the Lord ordained. He does need to called on the carpet for that by the body. He needs to be aware that he isn't even fit for any of the church ministry responsibility at this point because he cannot lovingly attend to his family first. Will keep you in prayer Renae, I have just found that the Boundaries stuff is helping me start aligning things from God's perspective because I will need to initiate the Matt 18 process and I need to be able to do it in love and out of genuine concern for my husband.

SueB,<BR>Did you read my post of July 21st? It tells specifics that I have dealt with in my "marriage" (bondage). I have tried everything to fix this, short of bringing him to accountability before his church, and he wouldn't let me do that. But God has now made it clear to me that we should go to this counselor & her pastor from my spouse's denomination. This is a way for me to obey Matt. 18, and my spouse has accepted that. I just pray he will follow through and go August 29th. Please pray!<P>Is your story posted in this website? Sounds like you've tried everything too and now ready for Matt. 18. I pray for you as well!! <P>May the Lord's strength be mighty within us, and may He tear down the bondages in our marriages and the deceptions that blind our spouses' eyes! And may He create in us clean hearts and renew a right spirit within us!!! <P>Hugs and prayers,<BR>Renae

Yes, Renae, <BR>I have read all of this thread and yes, we probably have walked in similar shoes. One of the consequences of getting out of the codependent behaviors is that the abuse increases as they attpempt to stronghold you into changing back to the mouse you once were. <P>Where I am at now emotionally though is beyond the anger, to loving and caring about him to the point that I feel compassion for the pain he is in that he feels he has to resort to this kind of behavior. My prayers are different, my responses are somewhat different, softer, kinder and firmer in some ways I think, though I have days like last Monday, where I lost sight of the goal and blew it with my mouth. <P>I press on to the goal Renae...I am praying for strength for you as well.

Hi SueB,<BR>Yes, there are lots of stages with this from disappointment to frustration, anger, grief, and then it is necessary to get to the point of compassion. Jesus said "Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do." <P>A book I highly recommend is Bold Love by Dan Allender. He talks of viewing the person through the eyes of faith, what they could become in the Lord. This is what makes us do what is right for the person even if it is not easy for us. This is real love.<P>On p.247 he says "Evil is enraged when it is treated with strength and mercy."<P>On P. 246, "Our biggest problem is seldom in finding reasonable and biblical consequences, but in the risk of setting parameters. Our refusal to accept potential abandonment, blocks most of us from setting limits and establishing consequences. But when we find the courage to do so, we will find love to be a powerful weapon against the forces of darkness. We will then be prepared to offer the next good gift, which is the opportunity to repent." (Sue, this is what we are doing by applying Matt. 18)<P>P.247 continues: "After parameters have been set and consequences enforced with strength and kindness, unflinching in the face of loss, shame, and hatred, then it is not uncommon for there to be slight change in the evil person. He can be expected to be moderately contrite, or at least nicer the next time you interact with him. But don't be fooled....his change is probably only a regrouping, not repentance. Evil uses false contrition to lull its victim to sleep so that it can regroup and try a different tactic. It is best to use this lull in the battle to further enrage evil so it will know the battle is not over until righteousness reigns."<P>This is the goal--that righteousness in Jesus would come forth from this chaos!<BR>God's goal is redemption and restoration.<BR>That must be our goal as well.<P>Please keep me updated on your process. You can start another thread if you wish. Thanks for taking the time to care about me and my situation! <BR>Love to you!<BR>Renae

Just want you all to know that my spouse called the pastor's voice mail and confirmed that he is coming to counseling with me tomorrow morning. Thank God!!! Now, please pray for us and for those counseling us, that God may do the work needed through this!!! Thank you!

Update: Thanks for the prayers! The Matt. 18 process is in motion! It is good to finally after 14 years--fully get the issues on the table before a counselor and her pastor. He wants to meet with my spouse next week too while she meets with me. He wants to talk to my spouse about submission, headship, etc. This is what's needed, but I'm afraid, because this church type isn't typically the kind I can imagine to confront a man on such issues. I wish I could be a little mouse in that room and hear what the pastor says. I am also afraid of what the lady counselor will say to me regarding depression--this type of church typically does not understand depression, but shames people for having it. I hope she is different, as I don't need more shame when the depression is coming from my spouse's abusive behavior. One glimmer of hope is that I saw on the Pastor's bookshelf books by Charles Swindoll. This denomination typically will only read books from their type of church. Maybe these people are more knowledgeable than most! Friends, please pray for us this week as well as on Tuesday, 10 a.m. Thanks!<P><BR>

Hello Renae,<P>It's good to know that your husband is attending the counselling sessions.<P>How did the session go today? Lots of prayers and hugs sent your way. You're in my thoughts. Keep us posted.