The Oct. 31st counseling session was an absolute SHOCK to me!!!! I have still not recovered. I will not go back to that Counselor/Pastor...it would kill me. They don't know what they are doing.<BR> <BR>H got worse right after that session.....I grabbed my keys,purse, a small bag...and dashed out the door with H not far behind trying to prevent my escape, but I drove off to our old house and bolted the door. I haven't been able to stay there permanently yet but fully intend to.<P>H is insisting that separation and divorce are the same & sinful and that I'm not going to leave him. Now he's controlling from that position. (A short time ago he expressed worry about losing his reputation & respect of his church...I think he's very worried about that now.)<P>It's not over yet. The battle increases.<BR>The counseling session plus H's increased controlling & abuse has left me confused, bruised, and broken inside.....<BR>At the other house with the door bolted I feel safe & peaceful with God. I will stay there permanently. <P>Please pray for me. I am very troubled.

I was so shaken last night after H's talk that I could not sleep. I put the earphones on and listened to a Christian radio station and they were talking about the Jeremiah verse..."I know the plans that I have for you... plans not to harm you but to give you a future and a hope"....I started crying and couldn't stop.... I got out of bed and headed for the car when suddenly H was there blocking the door! He would not let me leave.<P>I need support, so left a message here on the site to have Steve Harley call me; maybe he can advise me on how to handle H's new push for control.<BR>

*********<p>[This message has been edited by Renae (edited November 10, 2000).]

He blocked you and wouldn't let you leave? Walk away. Forget the car. <P>If he blocks your walking away call the police. Get a lawyer and sue him for false imprisonment. Otherwise you are being a foolish slave, Renae. I am out of energy. You are going to have to take responsibility here. [censored] and I are blue in the face. I'm done.

Be strong-if not for yourself...for your kids/those who love you<BR> <A HREF="http://www.aaets.org/arts/art58.htm" TARGET=_blank>http://www.aaets.org/arts/art58.htm</A> <BR>....In this social context, battered women deserve a special focus. The battered women themselves are of course the primary victims. But the secondary victims are their children. Boys who witness their mothers being battered are more likely to commit acts of violence themselves. Girls who observe domestic violence are more likely to tolerate abusive partners as adults, thus subjecting another generation to the same sad dynamics.... Michael K. Gilbertson, Ph.D., B.C.E.T.S.

Renae:<P>As much as I hurt for you, I have to echo what Karenna said "I am out of words for you".<P>Karenna:<P>Thank you.<P>Still your friend/brother from Texas....<P>[censored]<BR>

Renae,<P>I picture a deer caught in the headlights as I read your posts.<P>I am here to support you.<P>You may doubt yourself when you hear Pastor, counsellor and h all saying the same thing. So the torment comes with the doubt. What if they are right?<P>Is that why you have still not moved towards a real separation? I echo [censored] and Karenna's frustration, but having been locked in a condemning church as you seem to be, I feel more for your predicament.<P>If it means anything to you, I have studied the Bible for many, many years, going back to the original languages. I know it much better than most pastors.<P>Nowhere are you called to submit to such abuse. Yes, pastors and counsellors are often wrong.<P>You and the kids NEED a safe environment. God created us with such needs. I also know what it is like to have noone on my side. I have been ALONE going through my h's infidelity and desire to leave us, then recover. My lifeline has been this site. It would be much easier if my father cared or I had someone here...<P>But I don't, and I'm responsible for the little ones. Are you hearing this?<P>You are not a child. You are responsible to make decisions for yourself and your children.<P>If there is any hope to recover your marriage, it will only happen if and when your h decides to treat you with RESPECT! I haven't read it, but I hear Dobson takes a hard line in his book "Tough Love".<P>Renae, dear, give yourself permission to live at peace with your kids. Involve the police if necessary, do what you need to do to get him out NOW. Recovery will only occur from a position of STRENGTH.<P>You are so afraid of making a mistake, so you wish to do nothing. Staying with him is a decision, you can't opt out of making a decision that may be a big mistake. And no, separation is not divorce - where do they think the Bible says that? You could ask for chapter and verse, but I think you would do best to cut contact with those people and focus on yourself and your kids right now.<P><BR>

Renae, you haven't posted today. How are you?

Renae:<P>Schizzo has some insightful wisdom which I trust you will heed.<P>I said "I was out of words" for you, but after reading Schizzo's post, I wanted to re-iterate one point I have made over/over.<P>No! Separation & Divorce are NOT the same. There is NO scripture to back this up. I believe separation can be a very positive step.<P>In fact I will go so far as to say if many couples who divorced, would have first separated and not rushed to the d. court; perhaps they might have saved their marriages.<P>In my case, I see separation as being a positive (a killer to my flesh because of the loneliness and lack of marital relations); but a real boost to my spirit man. It also helped me face my issues.<P>I'm sorry, but your husband is only using this mentality as a form of control because you are 'slipping out of his tight grip of control'.<P>I like what the Apostle Paul wrote to Philemon (the 1 chapter book in the New Testament)talking about Onesimus, his slave.<P>"...perhaps it was for this reason that he was separated from you for a season, that you might haved him back forever as yours".<P>Again, the separation is really more for your husband's sake & good than it is for yours and will be the only way I see that he will ever deal with his issues and take responsibility for himself.<P>[censored] from Texas

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Again, the separation is really more for your husband's sake & good than it is for yours and will be the only way I see that he will ever deal with his issues and take responsibility for himself.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Not to quibble about who will benefit the most from it, but I think you need it at least equally. You will have a difficult, but doable, task of rebuilding your self-image, away from the constant tearing down...<BR>

Renae, where are you????

We have two servers...the one I use to post at this site hasn't been operating. When I come in with the other server, it didn't show me page 5. Confusing.<P>Anyway, I hear what you are saying. I'm battling a tremendous confusion right now between what you all tell me and what Pastor/Counselor (who claim to have the "Biblical" approach) say. H is drilling it into me more that I'm the problem. Last night he's preaching at me how he has this great spiritual discernment and I'm the problem because I'm not the way I was before our baby died, but have become independent and unsubmissive. GRRRRRRRRRR!!!!!!!!!<P>Yesterday Counselor called, & to my shock (after they pain they put me through at the last session)she was agreeing that I'm in a verbally abusive, etc. relationship, that my life has been chaotic for 2 yrs living between 2 houses cuz H won't let us move into only one, the backup of work because H hasn't set proper boundaries for our life and overwhelmed us, etc. <P>I asked her about what all the books say about such a situation. She said she agrees about the controlling dynamics, etc., but disagrees with the solution. She says she worked with battered women in shelters, etc. She told me some things I should do (since H is now letting me sort our possessions) and be (please the Lord, not H, though gave one way to prevent some of his blow-ups),wants me to read the book she recommended & meet me on Nov. 21st. <P>My parents & brother want to come here this month & next month.... UGH!!!!!! Holiday preparations going on, etc.....<P>H preached at one daughter last night, taking out his stuff on her..... I won't let this go on much longer. I don't agree with Counselor now. I will keep getting stuff organized and get away...soon. I'm avoiding H as much as I can in the meantime....<P>THat childhood neighbor (we currently write via e-mail)is coming from her home 2 hrs away....today she wants to see me so badly and discuss our sick marriages & solutions, and attend a concert together. <P>Talk to you later.....<BR>& thanks!!!!!<BR>Hugs,<BR>Renae <P><BR>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>today she wants to see me so badly and discuss our sick marriages & solutions, and attend a concert together.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>PR 31:12 She brings him good, not harm,<BR> all the days of her life.<BR>1TH 5:11] Therefore encourage one another and build each other up, just as in fact you are doing.<P>I advise caution Renae, by all means attend a concert and encourage one another, keeping the focus on what God would have you learn from your experiences. Draw closer to Him in this trial, learning perseverence. But if you get into a gabfest about the sick relationship, you are not honoring your husband. Just because he is in error, does not give you free reign to also be in error. Will be praying for you.<BR> <BR>

You are so RIGHT, Sue, there is a fine line. I have no motive, whether in writing e-mail, the recent phone talk, or today's meeting her to let it be a temptation to gossip and kill<BR>our spouses behind their backs. <P>When I came to to this website, I was desperately looking for answers, and in doing so, had to explain my situation. Sure I'm frustrated with H's treatment of me and his condition, but I have always wanted help for him and for us. <P>This woman has been married 18 yrs, I have 14. We are both believers. However, she has no personal support. It was not good for her to be talking to her mother, brother, and my brother, which was causing her spouse & marriage more problems, so she cut them off and only communicates with me when she's scared, fighting for her sanity, etc. <BR>They recently started up with a counselor too. My brother doesn't know my situation but told her to contact me. This is a good thing, I think a "God-thing" that we happened to get connected by computer through my brother. She hasn't been a believer as long as I have, and needs support to handle her difficult spouse. Even when we talked by phone (only once), we offer hope to each other, love, and understand without much words having to be exchanged. Today we both desperately need to get away from our daily painful atmosphere with the H's. We will be shopping at a mall and then will enjoy the inspiration of the concert.<P>Forgive this long explanation, but I have been accused constantly of gossip by H when I am not of that motivation. This is a very sore spot for me, and your mention of this (though you have good intentions) set me going on a defensive track!... But yes, I must be very careful today.

Renae, Renae, Renae:<P>I know I sound like a broken record and I feel so frustrated...but the time for talk is over!<P>You need to get away from this man and you need to find another counselor too.<P>Karenna, others and myself have poured our hearts out to you and yet you remain in the abusive situation.<P>Forget reading that book, the issue is your husband facing himself. Please Renae....get away from him and let the Lord minister to you.<P>Your counselor and his Pastor sound like "Job's friends" who did not speak to him wisely and were rebuked by the Lord.<P>You do not need anymore Job's friends and you definitely do not need to remain in the abusive, sick relationship.<P>[censored] from Texas

I need to tell you what else happened yesterday besides Counselor calling, H preaching, etc.... our daughter's teacher and spouse stopped in to invite us to their Sunday school class at H's church!!!!!!!<BR>Tell me this isn't a battle!!!!!!!!! I'm getting it from all directions!!!!

[censored] and others,<P>I might be way off here, but since I am in a similar situation, let me suggest another possible side to all of this. Since trials are necessary to develop perseverence and we are to consider trials a "joy" and since Paul shares with us the need to find contentment in all circumstances, there is a hesitation on my part to move swiftly. The abuse that both Renae and I are experiencing is definitely a spiritual battle. My response is vital to my growth in the Lord. As Jesus spoke the truth in love in spite of the adversity around Him, so must I learn to do the same. As He provided the example to go off by Himself and pray to be strengthened and renewed, I must learn and display the same behavior, but the renewed strength is to continue the battle. I find this battle heartening for I am so close in my prayer life to the One who gives life and strength. In pouring out my anxiety and heart out to Him, I am finding a peace in the midst of the hatefulness and a smile for the victory that already has been won. I am in awe of the love that is poured out to me from the Father, His words of comfort as the Word is brought to mind. There is a challenge for us to find contentment in all circumstances. There is a challenge for us to renew our minds daily, to take captive our thoughts, etc. <P>Renae, forgive me if I hit a button for you. It was not my intention at all and I do believe that you know that. It would be so easy to bash the man who lives at my house, but God calls me to respect the position even if I cannot respect the man. To not respect the position then leaves me questioning the One who put him there and who is allowing me to go through these experiences. The evil one is sneaky. My comments were not exhortation but a sincere expression of concern for you in light of the path He has both of us on at this time.<P>Have a great time at the concert!

Sue:<P>I hear what you are saying and you have to understand "I am a MAN" and I am coming at this from the standpoint, I was in many ways, like Renae's husband.<P>I do believe wive's should be submissive to their husband's, I believe they should win them by their 'chaste living' (I Peter 3:1,2)<BR>I do believe trials are designed to bring us closer to Jesus....but I do not believe any woman, Christian or not...has to stay in an abusive situation.<P>Yes, God has called Renae (and you as well) to be 'servants' - however; being a 'servant' doesn't mean you are to become a 'door mat', 'garbage can', 'punching bag', 'spitoon' etc.<P>I'm sorry Sue, but the whole issue concerning Renae at this time is all about her husband.<P>She is doing more harm than good by continuing to 'enable' his behavior by remaining with him ..... again, speaking from my own experience.<P>He will NEVER deal with his issues or take responsibility for his actions/behavior as long as Renae is present.<P>Thanks for letting me share.<P>[censored] from Texas

And what was that book your counselor recommended?

SueB, you are right--I thank you for explaining it!! I have been unable to put words to it. I am thinking about the following things:<P>This isn't entirely just an abuse/victim situation, but also a spiritual warfare against the wife/mother/family business position God called me to. As I stand back and look at my whole circumstances, I can see Satan has launched a full-blown destruction of my position!! Counselor also talked of respect for the position, even if I can't respect the man, and told me to read The Excellent Wife by Martha Peace. <P>During all the years that I was not fully equipped with strength & knowledge of my situation, I could not fight for my position! I was a victim, miserably codependent, suffering from "learned helplessness, cycling through depression and nursing my wounds. It is only in the last 3 years that I have gradually reached a level where I can be assertive to H and resist Satan's stronghold. Scripture is clear that it requires "resisting" for Satan to flee.<P>This is spiritual warfare against the bondage H is in and Satan's effort to prevent us from gaining the "marriage" God wants us to have. <BR>Sure I have every right to leave, but I have every right to have a marriage too!!!!!<P>Just because I don't have everything, doesn't mean I have nothing. I need to remember that in 10 yrs, H adamently refused any counseling. Now in the last 4 years he did let me talk to three alone plus together we have gone to two. That is progress. He went from disassembling the computer several months ago to prevent me having support, to not doing that. He has changed from not letting me have any freedom, not even shopping or leaving the house in our first years, to gradually allowing me the freedom I have now. He quit demanding sex and began to allow for understanding that I'm hurt. He doesn't force me to attend his church as he did before. He has gone from preaching "Everything is going to be my way!" to last night saying for the first time, he believes there has to be compromise in marriage! Certainly, this all doesn't come close yet to him understanding the full extent of his abusiveness toward me and what a healthy marriage and spirituality should be, but the degree to which I've stood my ground and detached from him (while still remaining in the same house), seems to be causing him to grow slowly. As I listened even to his verbal attacks against me this weekend, I see a man who is straining very hard to understand me, more than he's ever been willing to before....<P>Yet on Saturday, he said since the last counseling he feels increasingly like giving up; I am convinced he will give up entirely on his own slow growing toward a marriage if I do a complete separation, which he views like divorce. So right now, I think the best approach is to just leave & go to our other house when he becomes abusive, which worked recently to bring him back to a level of respect for me. <P>This is so tough! My nature is to give up.<BR>But I must permanently leave only when God gives clear direction. There is a time when one must flee from evil that refuses to budge. For me, it is not yet the time. <P>